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Bad games can try to run, but they can't hide.   No matter how you wordsmith your excuses, you WILL be held accountable for your product.


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  • State of the Studio

    I totally agree that they need to be showing big leaps this year in development.  By their own admission they should be moving toward an alpha on UE4, by the end of this year.

    I don't think the Vox is a bad sign, I think it's quite the opposite.  I can see why it looks like a step back, but this is always been part of the plan.  Build/test things on Vox Elyria, an then transfer these things to the Alpha on UE4.

    If we don't hear at least an Alpha date by the end of this year, that's a problem.
    Here is their most recent, updated schedule (if there has been an update please advise):

    1. V3 of the Website (Q3 2017)
    2. ElyriaMUD (Q4 2017)
    3. Alpha 1 (T1 2018)
    4. Server Selection (T1 2018)
    5. Settlement / Domain Selection (T2 2018)
    6. KoE (T2 2018)
    7. Design Experiences (T3 2018)
    8. Alpha 2 (T3 2018)
    9. Beta 1 (S1 2019)
    10. Prologue & CoE Adventure Toolkit (S1 2019)
    11. Exposition (S1 2019)
    12. Beta 2 (S1/S2 2019)
    13. Stress Test (Any paid account)(S2 2019)
    14. Launch (S2 2019)

    That was the list published the July 2017.  It's now Feb 2018.  By their own schedule they should be doing far more than "moving toward an alpha on UE4 by the end of the year".

    First we were supposed to be playing the game now.   Then Alpha 1 was supposed to be worked on in the beginning of this year (now).  Now you would just accept a date by the end of the year?

    Come on man.. they need to do better than that.  At the very least you should be asking them for an updated and realistic timeline.  If you can see that their timeline is wrong, so can they...

  • State of the Studio

    Realizer said:
    Ungood said:
    Realizer said:
     It seems you CoE fans need to be constantly reminded, this isn't about being behind schedule. It's about having nothing to show for the time they've had. When other projects mentioned in this thread were behind schedule (or still are) they were constantly trying to show everyone they were still doing work.. 

     On the other hand CoE seems to doing everything they can to avoid showing their work, while hoping for funding. The thing is no one is going to invest if there's currently no fruits from the 2+ years of labor.  

     Are you guys going to continue to play strawman bullshit? Or are you going to hold Walsh's feet to the fire and start demanding something get done? 
    I guess we will just have to disagree on the definition of "nothing

    As the last time I went to his site, I saw all kinds of 'in-game" footage videos, and Screenshots showing all kinds of features.. not what I would call nothing, but YMMV.
     Screenshots are all well and good but, I'd much rather have some actual technical details on what they are doing with this supposed SpacialOS copy. Or just anything involving the "backend" they like to mention so much.  Screenshots tell us nothing about performance, if all we needed were screenshots Daybreak would still be "developing" EQ:Next. 
    I think the problem is that they have gone backwards.  

    They started with the sword fight demo based on the Princess Bride
    They followed that up with the demo of the mine exploration
    Then they kind of started going off the rails with the "jousting" demo. A mini-game not part of the core promise.
    Now they show screenshots of a voxel based minecraft like client:

    People like to see progression.  The problem IMHO is that those first sword fight demos and mine exploration and even the Jousting one are just fluff with no foundation.  I think they were stand alone demos, not demonstrating the actual game but more like concept art.   Now it seems they are saying "We are actually going to start work on the real game so join us in this MUD".

    People saw the earlier demos, thought they were representations of real progress and bought in.  Now the above, recently revealed screenshot shows how little was done before and how far they still have to go.

    Again- they only hired their lead designer in Oct 2017.  That should tell you all you need to know.

  • State of the Studio

    Kyleran said:
    Which the date, by the kickstarter TOS, is not a guaranteed date... As shown here...

    “The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project.”

    And, no I think there is a 0% chance that you could use "market research" to file a claim against them.  You would honestly need proof that they, themselves knew there was no possibility of them releasing the game on time.  THey would say, "We believed a new tech called spatial OS would allow us to create our game, extremely quickly, and we underestimated the time it would take to hire a competent staff".  THey would point to the multiple times they've said this.

    And yet again you completely miss the point.  The point is, contrary to what some would have you believe when defending these crowdfunded MMORPGs, the pledge or donation moniker matters little to the courts, they apply the same sort of scrutiny they would any other business: if you misrepresent or mislead the customer, you can be liable for refunding them, through lawsuit if needed.

    Crowdfunding isn't a charitable donation.  It's a money exchange for a known return, one that's listed at the time the money changes hands.  If the seller did something that misleads the customer into purchasing, the law will not throw its hands up and go "oh well, you donated!"
    Yet we can't seem to find many, if any actual court decisions or laws governing crowd funded efforts,  particularly with regards to clear policies of "no refunds" or "deposits."

    As mentioned before, precision in terminology is of key importance as shown in the one example provided, the judge found for the plaintiff  as it was on "order' and not a donation. 

    See screenshots from D,eatherus which clearly use word Purchase.  Not donation. 
  • State of the Studio

    And I issue that same challenge to all of you.  Find me one lawsuit where the plaintiff won, because the product was too late on kickstarter.

    Just FYI, you can't.  It doesn't exist.
    Did all funding stop with Kickstarter? As shown by others, the website has been selling "products" since it went live. 

    By the way... please check out: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/business-guide-ftcs-mail-internet-or-telephone-order

    Note the clarity in which it addresses both late delivery as well as those where there is no delivery date (defaults to 30 days).

    What is the Mail, Internet, or Telephone Order Rule?

    The Rule requires that when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."

    If, after taking the customer’s order, you learn that you cannot ship within the time you stated or within 30 days, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delayed shipment. If you cannot obtain the customer’s consent to the delay -- either because it is not a situation in which you are permitted to treat the customer’s silence as consent and the customer has not expressly consented to the delay, or because the customer has expressly refused to consent -- you must, without being asked, promptly refund all the money the customer paid you for the unshipped merchandise.

  • State of the Studio

    Phobos40 said:
    Hehe.. just wanted to share what I found on the net ;-)

    And btw. @Caspian: If you read that post. Do me a favour and offer us refunds, before your ship sinks! Do it for your reputation. The reputation of SBS and all your employees.

    I know you need every penny for the development of CoE, but you betrayed me with your presentation! I should have gotten a game, based on SpatialOS - nope (it was one of your main marketing arguments - mentioned a couple of times as the fabric of the game -  main reason why I gave you my money). You consideraly changed the release date! I still haven't seen anything of any of your promised game mechanics! Just worthless "blabla" (sorry sounds maybe rude - but I feel like hearing our politicians promising things every day without any proof) in your dev journals, your artwork and spending time on senseless development of a justing video (just why  - do you had to much free time?). To be honest - if you need more money - show us something! Show new people, which don't know anything about CoE, something about your vision. The game you are developing. 

    Some months ago I believed in you and SBS. I gave you my money. Investigated a lot of time in the community (not directly on the forums - but directly with other members believing in you too) But today, I'm just disappointed about the way everythingthing is going. I don't know you personally, but what I heard isn't really apeiciable.

    All I want you to do, is to be honest with your bakers and the community. If you cannot accomplish what you promised, just announce it! I'm sure, the "brainwashed" mayority of them will support you.

    I won't. You changed alot of things the last few month's (after I gave you my money - SpatialOS, release Date). So give us (the people who claim it) their money back. I think it just would be be fair.

    I agree with a lot of what you say, but I just do not know if offering refunds is viable.  They just laid staff off.  One of the reasons (I think THE reason) they switched from SpatialOS was due to cost.  I don't think they have money in the bank to offer refunds.    Doing so would likely (IMHO) put 15-20 people out of a job and only get a small fraction of money to the backers.  So I guess you could say I am ethically torn on the subject.