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  • Why do MMORPG's suck so much these days

    FFXIV raids its players wallet by making them pay for the same game on multiple platforms, and then charging them a subscription for it.

    To begin playing WoW, I pay for it once and can access it on my PC and Mac.  For FFXIV, I have to pay 2x as much - 3x as much if I want to play on my PS4.  This is how they get a lot of money, and this is one reason why I've never played the game.  It's too much.  I can use that extra $60 to buy an entire other game (or two, or three) which works just fine on other platforms.

    I can use the $120 that I'd need to play it on my Mac and PS4 to buy a new 1080p monitor.  I can fly round trip to Chicago from here to visit RL friends for less cash, actually...

    I just don't see a point in paying $180 + Tax to play the same game - the same account, the same characters - on whichever platform/machine I have that is most convenient for me at the time.

    Maybe I want to play on my Mac and it's 21.5" Monitor when at home.  Maybe I'd want to play on my Windows Notebook when I travel?  Maybe I'd want to play on my PS4 when I'm relaxing in my room, in bed...  Or on the living room couch.

    This is not the type of convenience I'm willing to pay for.


    Beyond that.  I think MMORPGs are boring because the Lore for many of them is shallow and there is nothing really pulling players to invest in them beyond superficial gains.  Many of them are trying to exploit the competitive drive of players, but that only pulls in fickle players who will easily jump to the "next big thing."


    Another reason is that the genre has atrophied.  We had a good 6-7 years of games that did nothing but copy older games and slap it on top of awful programming and crappy graphics engines with astronomical system requirements.


    Lastly, many other genres are taking RPG elements and using them to pull from the MMORPG fanbase.  ARPGs are doing this (Diablo III, Path of Exile, etc.).  FPS games are doing this (Destiny, Overwatch).

    Consoles are also bigger than ever, and MMORPGs are not really targeting those form factors/platform well, yet.  When they do, they generally have "second class citizen" status, which is actually a reason to avoid them - not invest in them.

    Lack of cross-play is also an issue, as well as the need to rebuy the game for PC and console (something Microsoft is addressing on Xbox, but Sony likely will never address - which is why I'm likely to replace my PS4 with a new Xbox instead of getting a PS Pro... soonish).
  • World of Warcraft - The Revival of Leveling in Patch 7.3.5 - MMORPG.com

    The issue isn't leveling, the issue is the fact that it's a quest hub game and people get tired of that. You aren't really learning your class, you're just going from quest hub to quest hub and killing whatever they tell you to kill. There is very little cooperative gaming while leveling. That's the big issue. No matter how different the landscape feels, the quests simply aren't diversified enough and 100+ levels is a lot of this to endure. It becomes monotonous - so making it take longer is actually a negative as you really stop paying attention to the quest text, anyways, in order to speed through it.

    It's also like playing a single player game that suddenly becomes multi-player because you got to max level.

    This was not the case in EQ. That game was designed for cooperative gameplay from the ground up. People started grouping in that game around level 10, and you had to do more than whack-a-mole to get anything done in it. The learning curve was built into the leveling process - it wasn't offloaded to Wikis and websites like Icy Veins. The quests are too good, and require too little help in WoW to really foster grouping at lower levels. This was done in earlier expansions when the game was less of a loot piñata, but this is no longer worth it - IMO.

    I think this is why a lot of "veterans" aren't impressed by this. It doesn't really change anything - it just makes the same boring content take [much] longer to do.

    Up until TBC, and to a lesser extent Wrath, WoW was fun to level in because there were still influxes of actually new players and you could quest and group with those players as you leveled up. That has largely dried up - the game is full of veterans and they aren't really bringing in much new blood. The heirloom gear is popular for that reason, and if Blizzard wanted leveling to not become a shitfest, they shouldn't have put that in game, anyways (and definitely not the upgrade mechanic for them). Couple this with the fact that the game has too many servers (IMO - some with fairly large faction imbalances), and it exacerbates the issue.

    Leveling in WoW as a new player during TBC was a completely different experience to today - even with these 7.3.5 changes. I don't think there is anything - at all - that they can do to recreate this. This is similar to people wanting Classic because they think it will recreate the classic atmosphere (it won't), or a game like EQ because they think it will recreate that experience (it won't). I don't think it's possible barring another completely new game coming around and using the same formula - but with different lore backing different content and an influx of players with quite specific mix of mindsets and personalities similar to what those older games had at those points in time.

    Most people don't want to take even longer leveling alts, because they've already leveled enough of them - in both factions. This is nothing but a time sink for them. That's kind of the reason why certain Hero Classes were made to start at a higher level (Demon Hunter, Death Knight, etc.).

    Personally, I don't think they can do anything to fix the gameplay longevity issues of this game (for me). I can play it after an expansion for a few months, but I get bored quickly as it's like visiting family back home. The first few days are super exciting, and then you start counting the days until you leave. That's what subscribing to WoW is like these days.

    Nothing you do in game feels worth it, due to the constant gear resets at practically every major content patch. These games are now to the point where they blatantly waste your time and ask you to pay for that privilege. That's not fun. It's a Role Playing game. I like building a character and having it last a bit longer. If I'm going to farm an uber item that takes months to drop, then I'd like it to not become utterly worthless in a few months simply because a new content patch or expansion was released. This makes these games incredibly unfun for me. I don't see the point in them, anymore.

    There are no AAs. They input grind mechanics like the Artifact weapon which requires hundreds of hours of grinding, only to disappear when the expansion is released (pretty much into thin air, yay!). The PvE is all about speed running and loot whoring. GearScore is worse than it was in WoTLK, and built into the game, now... There are blatant, almost intentional, class imbalances - and spec imbalances within classes which basically force you to play something you don't want to simply due to your preferred class or spec being numerically not worth it to play.

    This is 8+ years of "let's get ore of to play the game... we need more new subscribers" at work here. They had a vision when they started, but they seemed to sort of lose sight of it. Since Cataclysm the game seems to have been designed and balanced by bean-counters.
  • Classic wow will make noobs cry

    Renoaku said:
    rush1984 said:
    Name 5 things that will make the wotlk'ers and onwards spit their dummies out if they play classic wow when the server launches.

    I'l go first 

    1. No lfg 
    2. No heirlooms
    3. Running everywhere
    4. Having to drink mana water
    5. Having to use CC

    I can think of more can you? 
    what are heirlooms in wow lol?

    But the original wow was the best this new garbage since burning crusade has been on nothing but tilt starting with burning crusade, if they bring back the original wow as it was before burning crusade, give mages back Arcane Power, POM, Pryoblast ill think about giving it another go.

    They're "Bind on Account" gear that Blizzard introduced in WoTLK to help people level alts faster.  The gear could be equipped at level 1, and instead of replacing it, it scaled with your level as you leveled up.  Frankly, the stats weren't even top end-WoTLK at max level.  The benefit from the Heirlooms was in much easier gear management and the XP bonuses off of them.  The weapons were pretty decent, as well.  You can fill in like half of your gear slots with Heirlooms atm.  Back in WoTLK, it was only like 3-4 slots, or so.

    Heirlooms are there to help people level alts faster.  No one used them at max level, because the gear is terrible there.  There is no "XP" gain at max level, either.

    Contrary to what some people would have you believe, sitting at low levels to steamroll levelers who decided to do a few BGs or such isn't the intended gameplay in WoW.  The people complaining about Heirlooms are largely those people.

    And if the Specs are literally "classic," I expect many people to be disgusted by it when they try it.

    People act like Classic was the pinnacle of class/spec balance and gameplay in WoW.  It wasn't.

    Those classic servers were popular because they were free or extremely cheap to play on.  Things are different when you still have to pay a subscription and your choice is between Old WoW and New WoW.  That's why the reception for the Classic Server at Blizzcon was fairly tepid, while the new Expansion had people hollering like they were at a football game.  Most people don't care about this - they appreciate forward momentum in gaming.
  • Graphics

    Dullahan said:

    ps. EQ topped out at over half a million players around the turn of the century, a time when most people still didn't even have internet.
    Even less...way less...had the GPU required to play.

    EQ didn't really require a GPU of any decency to play until around 2004 or so, (after Planes of Power) when they upgraded the graphics Engine for DX9.  Until then, I was playing on an old Voodoo3 graphics card on a P3.  I put EQ on my older laptop with an AMD A10-5745M APU, and it was laggy as all hell, because GPU almost doesn't matter to EQ.  It's all about the CPU.  EQ2 has the same issues (it has terrible GPU usage, and high CPU requirements).  There are games released in 2010-2014 which play better on that laptop than EverQuest.

    Also, EQ topped off at half a million "players," but by that time a lot of those "players" were boxed toons.  I don't know any other progression raider who didn't have 2 accounts - one with their main and another with a raid alt they kept decently-fully geared up.  EQ saw a lot of account trading as well, so many people would buy accounts, quit and resale them (causing all sorts of issues for guilds when accounts would get recalled or locked).

    EQ died pretty quickly - during the Gates of Discord expansion it lost a lot of its top guilds to WoW Beta, etc. in a fairly short span of time.  It never really recovered, and it never really saw the same kind of "bump" that WoW sees at Expansion launches for Omens of War, DoDH, PoR, etc.

    I think this was the case because a lot of EQ players played with the same people for years, and it was the primary thing keeping them on the game.  That's why guilds tended to quit en masse, and never return.  No one wanted to start over building relationships that - to them - were as legitimate as any other RL friendship.  A lot of EQ Guilds used to do IRL meet-ups, go to SOE's annual event together, etc.

    I actually met a few people from EQ in WoW, because I use the same character name in all the other MMORPGs that I play.  It was quite cool that they remembered me after a decade, just from my character name, and I remembered them from theirs.

    I think people are putting a little too much stock in EQ's gameplay...  Back then, it was slim pickings for MMORPGs, and either you put up or shut up.  Once the "modern" wave of MMORPGs hit the market (or were about to), EQ quickly faded into irrelevance.

    I don't think that's merely coincidental.

    In any case, no one is trying to convince anyone here NOT to play Pantheon.  It's your money to spend how you wish.  We just don't feel the need to censor our different opinions on certain matters.

    I love how it's gone from "It's like EQ" to "Well, it's like EQ... but Early EQ... cause of course the expansions that made EQ "easier" is what drove players away...  Not the antique gameplay and Korean-style grinding."

    EDIT:  ^- Seems to be a common theme I'm noticing on various Pantheon forums and Reddit.  It's as if they've prepared the talking points, and are quick to jot them down every time someone mentions these things.
  • Any MMORPGs where the journey is more important than the destination?

    Lienhart said:
    I'm gonna blame WoW for this but every MMORPG I've played since WoW I feel this ridiculously fucking dumb urge to rush to max level and do "end game".

    I flashed back to Final Fantasy XI recently and remembered how long it took to hit 75. The journey was full of memorable hilarious shit like Tarutaru's dancing in Valkurm Dunes while a train of goblins chased my party away. Because the journey was important, so was the company. I met two really cool ppl in XI and my brother joined in later.

    It's been 13 years since then. I don't fucking remember anyone else in other MMORPGs. :'(
    That's because you've been hopping form game to game like all the rest of them.  When  you play games like that, you don't really care about getting to know other people.  You may look upon the times 13 years ago and mourn the relationships you were able to forge and maintain back then, but you are ignoring the fact that the games aren't the only thing that have changed.  You've changed, too.

    We don't exist in a vacuum.  Time doesn't stand still.  Technology Changes.  Game Design Changes.  Gaming Norms and Gaming Culture Changes.  People Change - including OURSELVES.

    The people thinking Pantheon is going to bring back the Glory Days of social gaming are in for a rude awakening.  It will be yet another game where people have their "Constant Parties" that they level and raid with, and where Guilds are dominated by cliques.  Why?  Because that's the types of people that play these games.

    If you want slow leveling, go to Lineage II and avoid buying XP Boosts.  You'll get your wish.

    But the fact that it allows you to grind slowly to max level doesn't change the fact that the people in that game are no different than in any other (worse, actually, because the grindy mechanics makes players incredibly selfish ... way beyond what the "Gear Race" does).

    The social aspect of gaming have moved beyond the games themselves.  People no longer feel tied to a specific game just to keep in touch with the people they've met.  They have Cell Phones, Facebook, iMessage, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, etc..  TeamSpeak, Ventrillo, Battle.net, Xbox Live, PlayStation Network, Steam, Curse, Discord, Twitch, YouTube, etc...

    You will never, ever, get the kind of immersion and social gaming experience you got over a decade ago, in earlier games that were popular when the internet was proliferating in accessibility and quality.

    Times have changed.

    Time for you to move on.

    Those of us who experienced it have great experiences to look back on.  We were part of something special - the birth and proliferation of online gaming in its infancy.  The era of true MMORPG gaming.

    But those times are over.  They're history, and history doesn't always repeat itself.