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But then... if you buy 5 packs of hotdogs and 4 packs of buns, you can make exactly 40 hotdogs...Ungood said:This is the whole.. Hot dog / Bun ploy.
They sell Hotdogs in Packs of 8. And Buns in packs of 10.
Sop you always have some reason to keep getting more of one or the other.
It kinda, sorta has a tutorial, but there isn't much there. There are a handful of tooltips and an NPC who insults you for not knowing how to fight, then tells you to press some mouse buttons and doesn't care if you press the wrong ones. There's a quest that encompasses the "tutorial", but doesn't really explain how to do it. And that's it.YashaX said:There is a tutorial.Hengist said:If it's so common in MMORPGs, then list another one that does it. A lot of games have a mana pool, or something to that effect by a different name. Having two separate mana-like pools and expecting characters to largely specialize in one or the other is not something I had seen before in an MMORPG.
Similarly, a lot of MMORPGs have skill points of some sort, but most commonly they're allocated within skill trees for your class, or within some universal set of skills. I hadn't previously seen an MMORPG where skill points are shared with armor skills or weapon skills. Sharing them with crafting skills is also unusual, though Anarchy Online did that, too.
I'm not saying those things are bad. I didn't get far enough into the game to have an informed opinion. But I am saying that it would be nice if the game offered a bit of explanation. It's one thing to read on a web site that some mechanic exists, but it's quite another to see it play out in the game. The total amount of tutorial explanation that I saw in the few hours that I played likely wouldn't fill a 3x5 index card, and that's pathetic.
Please don't take the question condescendingly, it's genuinely not meant that way, although in text, I'm afraid it'll come off that way. It's an honest question, that I'm curious about.
Considering the vast amount of people who do play the game, how do you suppose they figured it out and got comfortable? Do you feel they just had a larger threshold for frustration? How did they overcome the "pathetic" tutorial experience that you had?
To explain what I'm driving at, is that I've found games that I felt required me to spend hours watching video's, doing a ton of reading outside the game in order to enjoy. Even on top of tutorials, it required a lot of time spent learning the nuances of the game. There are games where I was able to dive in an play, and figure out all the basics, and learn the nuances as I went. However some of the things you are describing don't seem to be "nuances" rather, fundamental parts of the game, that frankly, you are one of the first people I'm seeing say they were unable to understand.
(And for the record...yeah...they should be infinitely clearer about what each package encompasses. When I came back to the game in the Spring for the first time post launch, I had to read very closely what each option really had. So I don't totally disagree with your premise.)
But I am saying that I think they made a pretty severe blunder by not having a tutorial.
Actually, there are a lot of NPCs near the start of ESO who insult you for not already knowing all about the game and the world before you start. Maybe that's what the forum posters here are taking their queues from.
For comparison, let's consider another game that I recently tried for the first time: Star Trek Online. I ended up quitting before long, largely because both ground combat and space combat were so clunky, which surprised me because both Champions Online and Neverwinter demonstrate that Cryptic knows how to make far better combat than they implemented in STO. But it means that I went through the STO tutorial recently enough to remember it.
STO does some of its tutorial piecemeal. Here's your first ground combat, so we'll give you the ground combat tutorial. The space combat tutorial can wait for your first space combat. Tutorials for features that you can't access for several levels show up when you can first access them, and so forth.
But when STO does a tutorial to introduce some game mechanic, they explain it. Sometimes it's a sequence of ten or so text bubbles with a sentence or two explaining what is going on. Some say to click on this button to bring up some menu, and the next says to click on a particular button on the menu to do something. They explain what the feature is and how to use it, and give you practice in using it in a simple test case.
Depending on which feature you pick, STO's tutorial for a single feature might well be more expansive than ESO's tutorial for the entire game, at least if you exclude from the skill point recommendations.
Of course people could have figured out how to play STO if the game didn't have a tutorial. But it's better to give new players a two minute explanation of some feature that lets the player see it in action than to let the player flail around for ten minutes before figuring out what to do. Or worse, letting the player stumble across the feature a month later after not previously being aware that it was part of the game and he should have been using it since the start.
That's the point of a tutorial: help the new player to understand some key mechanic in two minutes rather than ten. STO does that, as do a lot of other games. ESO doesn't bother. Yes, the new player can figure it out in ten minutes. But it's a terrible way to introduce people to a game. Reverse-engineering how the game works shouldn't accidentally be part of the game. (Intentionally asking players to reverse-engineer it, along the lines of A Tale in the Desert, is a different matter, but makes for a very niche game.)
Ikcin has the bad habit of presenting his opinion as universal undeniable fact. Like here: "Gothic 2 is better than Morrowind".Sovrath said:ikcin said:Kyleran said:I would not enjoy EVE on a PVE server, but some claim they would, have to assume they know what they enjoy.
I don't enjoy PVP, yet often play on PVP servers because it adds some challenge to the PVE that is generally missing from most games.
Like you noted, progression without some challenge is pretty pointless. Trick is to not make it crushing, especially to newer players, at least until they get a good understanding of the game and a chance to make a few friends or join a guild.
I just started playing NMS, and I've been struggling a bit to get going.
I would not welcome the extra "challenge" of some experienced player trying to kill me at this point, but later on, sure, I'd take a risk if there was a decent reward for doing so.
This is not about the PvP. Remember the Gothic 2 - pretty good game, maybe even the best RPG then. It never become popular in US as the gameplay was very harsh, the initial progression was harder even than that in DS series. Instead the US players played Morrowind. And G2 is much, much better.
At the same time G2 became very popular in Eastern Europe, Germany and Russia. So there are some customers behaviors related with the social mentality.I don't know about Gothic 2 being "much better" than Morrowind. I'm all for "harsh". What I'm not for is "crap".I've tried Gothic 2 several times and it's just junk. Maybe there is a good game in there but it's hard to find it. I liked the difficulty, the exploration but even with all the patches it's just wonky and buggy.