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  • It's got a long way to go.

    Sovrath said:
    Mendel said:
    Jimmydean said:
    <trimmed priors to continue the discussion>
    He never said he was trying to cater to Call of Duty players. He was saying most of the old EQ1 players have moved onto other genres at this point because MMORPGs are an empty shell of what they used to be. He was saying there needs to be a game like Pantheon to bring us back into the MMORPG genre. I agree 100 percent with Brad.
    Another analogy for you then.

    Brad hopes to lure former EQ1 players from modern games that they adapted to, like Call of Duty, by offering them another dose of the 1999 game play they've already abandoned.  That's like trying to convince someone that they should choose a horse-and-buggy over a car to get around.

    That analogy implies that Brad wants to limit himself to that 550k peak population of EQ1.  I don't believe that to be the case, so even I'd hesitate to accept that analogy.  In the same blog quote (see above), he even suggests that his game hopes to be "closer to 10% than 1% " (1.5 million rather than 150k).  So he's hoping to recapture everyone who played EQ1, plus a million more people.  Maybe he's banking on a lot of 16 year old players who were barely 4 when WoW released.

    If this community doesn't like questions about how VR is going to attract CoD players, let me ask this instead.  How is Brad planning to dislodge the die hard EQ1 players that are still in EQ1 under Daybreak?  If that number is as high as 55k (which I don't believe, but it could be), that's 10% of EQ1's peak base right there.  What arguments do we anticipate will VR use to cause the Mar 16, 1999 EQ1 vet from not logging in to their competitor and into theirs?  I'd love to hear them, because I don't see anyone dislodging some current EQ1 players.  (Attachment to a character is a very real thing).

    At some point, no matter how VR defines their customer, they will need to attract them from whatever it is that they area currently doing.  If they are only building a game to appeal to that EQ1 crowd, they aren't hoping to grow anything at all.  We already know what the MMORPG market looks like under current conditions.

    You are reading but you are not comprehending. That's okay. The game is not for you. My apologies. Hopefully we get some action oriented quest grinders in the near future for you.
    I already think this game is not likely to be for me, but I'm willing to give VR the opportunity to change my mind.

    But based on what?

    Are you ok without cutting edge graphics, slow combat and a reliance on community in order to progress in the game?

    Are you ok with a small community that is most likely playing this becuase they prefer "old school games"?

    If yes then that's great. But if you answer "no" to any of that then you have to do some soul searching as each point really feels like a pillar of what the game and the community is about.
    Limiting my choices to limit a response.  You're better than that.

    My major disagreements with Pantheon's goals are thinking that the answers can only be found by reverting back to Brad's first efforts at this MMORPG thing.   I think he can do better than rehashing the same things that worked in 1999 but were summarily replaced by newer mechanism that had far more success, by any tangible means of measuring success.  I had hoped that he was aiming a bit higher than that.

    But, I am not okay with a small community wanting to return the genre to 'old school'.  They can emulate the anecdotal ostrich as much as they want.  I can't change ostriches, I can't change other people.  All I can do is express my own wishes and desires and opinions.

    My contributions now, while the game is still in development have a far, far better change of making some difference in the future direction of games.  It's a venue where other developers might see these ideas for the generation-after-next of games.   I'm realistic enough to know that anything said here is unlikely to affect the development of Pantheon in particular.  But there is a better chance of a pre-launch idea affecting how Pantheon develops (no matter how minute that change is) than the chance of a post-launch idea being incorporated.  Excuse me while I vainly attempt to make something more to my liking.

    The ostriches are ordering more sand, and I don't want what they want in the short term to be the sole direction of where the genre thinks it needs to head.

    Call it my personal windmill to tilt at.  I really don't want to deny anyone the game they want.  I also wouldn't want anyone to be mislead by their own enthusiasm for any game, disappointment isn't fun.  And I certainly don't want the market to get the wrong ideas and swamp us with Pantheon-clones in 5-7 years time.

  • Pantheon about todays live stream

    Ungood said:
    Mendel said:
    Amathe said:
    Mendel said:
    Once again, a dissenting opinion is shouted down, without any attempt to try to explain 'why' what another poster is seeing isn't what they are seeing.  

    It wasn't just a dissenting opinion. He said he dislikes one of the essential premises of the game, namely, the bringing back of old school type combat. It would be like going to a Cinnabon bakery and saying "I don't like cinnamon buns!" What are they going to do in response to such a statement? Say "oh ok then we will start over and become an Arbys." 

    There are hundreds of games on this website's game list that I don't like because I don't like the manner of game that they are. But I don't hang out on their forums, making sure to get a shot in on those games every time someone mentions them or God forbid says anything praiseworthy of them. Because that would be pointless trolling. 

    No, he was told to 'go away' without any discussion of his opinion.  Basically, @Theocritus' opinion was ignored, the point he was making was ignored, and @SavageHorizon clearly tried to shut off further discussion of his opinion.

    At least, you bothered to give your opinion and explain it.  @SavageHorizon didn't.  There's not even an implied explaination there.

    Pantheon is news, and a new video is news.  @Theocritus expressed his opinion on a discussion forum.  Discussion of a news topic and expressing one's personal reaction to that news topic isn't any form of trolling that I'm aware of.  It's just another dissenting opinion.  Neither of us know exactly how many other people who also believe the same way.  Maybe it's the majority of gamers, maybe it isn't.  We know it's not preposterous, because at least @Theocritus has that opinion.

    They have voiced their feelings that they don't like the game.

    Ok thank you for telling us that you don't like the game.

    Now, with that put out,

    We like the game as it is and as it is coming along.

    Since none of us are going to like the game less because you don't like it, and none of us are going to try and change your mind to suddenly like the game.

    We are left with very little choices at this point on how we can respond.

    In the end, if this does not look like a game you will enjoy, the the only choice you really have is to stop wasting your and our time about it, and go find something else to play that you will enjoy.
    In this thread, I have only commented on how the pro-Pantheon community chooses to respond to anyone that doesn't share their viewpoint.  Instead of embracing them into the community, they choose to attack with various means to try to discourage anyone from forming their own opinions and expressing those.  This is making the potential Pantheon community, one of the core aims and goals of the developers, sound more likely to turn to exclusive and detrimental to a game that's not even completed.

    I've been commenting on the behavior of the community as I encountered it on this site, and how they choose to engage in a discussion.  So, your post is addressing something I may have said in the past, not what has been said in this thread.

    Cannibalism isn't the first option, even for those wrecked in the Andes.  Remind me to never fly to any Pantheon Fests with you guys.

  • It's got a long way to go.

    1AD7 said:
    kjempff said:
    Millions would like to play Pantheon.  
    Got to correct you there. Visionary Realms know they are making a niche product, that is not supposed to attract "millions" of players. I have heard them say numbers like 10k, and "if we get 30k players that would exceed our expectations". Let's be careful not to put the "Savior of all that is wrong with mmos" label on Pantheon as well, and project our hopes into a game - Color me cynical, but I lost faith in that ever happening.. and at least, there is no indication so far that Visionary Realms has the size or ambition to try to be that.
    At this point it looks like they are remaking Everquest with a few additions, and the audience for that is pretty much only old Everquest players. Hopefully enough to keep the game running after launch, and if the gameplay quality is good enough and there is enough content to keep players interested, then we might begin to see it grown in numbers, but a full million ? I doubt that will ever happen, it is too niche for that.

    Your numbers seem to be a bit off.  Here is an excerpt from one of Brad's blogs:

    "But our target audience is bigger than that group. We are casting a broader net, so to speak. We are absolutely convinced that a large group of younger players will end up loving the game, assuming we can reach them, show them something that seems fun and interesting, provide answers to their questions no matter how simple or sophisticated. These people love Dark Souls, Call of Duty, the better MOBAs, the survival games -- they crave both challenge and risk and reward, but they also crave experiencing these things together with other real people. There's just something that's part of human nature where if you experience something exciting, dangerous, tension-filled, etc. and you experience that with other actual people, those events have a greater impact and create much deeper and longer lasting memories. So our challenge (the dev team and the community's) is to figure out how to reach these groups and explain to them what they're looking at, why things work the way they work, and how much FUN these games can be.

    And just so you don't think I'm too crazy, no, I don't think the vast majority of these audiences and demographics will all be magically drawn to the game. But, as I've posted before, we're not making a game that is all things to all people. If we can reach a reasonable percentage of those who already do love Pantheon AND those who would once given a chance to experience it, then we will have success, the game will grow, expansions with new content and crazy new features will be released, and we'll have another game on our hands that's still running even 17 years after launch. 15 million online gamers (a conservative number, btw)? 10% is still 1.5M. 1% is 150,000 gamers. EQ was very successful and profitable at 150,000 gamers, peaking at 550k. Small numbers yes when compared later to WoW, but plenty large enough to employ a dedicated dev team, live teams, expansion teams, support and GM/CS teams, etc. etc.  Especially a company like Visionary Realms, where we run lean and mean.  We don't have huge overheads, a publisher who takes a huge cut, needless bureaucracy, 9-5ers, people who won't wear multiple hats and do whatever it takes.  And while I'm convinced we will be much closer to 10% than 1%, probably even higher, the point is that while we don't need a massive ton of people to achieve success, we do need to make a large number of people aware and familiar with the game."

    Here's that Brad quote again.  If he's so convinced that his future players are off playing Call of Duty, where is the marketing plan that VR will use to attract these players from CoD?  And how is he planning to churn out new content as fast as CoD in order to keep those players playing Pantheon?

    I see a lot of wishful thinking, but no real plan of action or even evidence of one.  That's all VR's issue.  Right now, this game is being shown to MMORPG gamers almost exclusively, with the only limited feedback from MMORPG gamers.  What features from games like CoD or DS are they trying to incorporate into Pantheon to help attract those other players?

    It's like spending all your time and effort on building a new rod-and-reel, and expecting the elk-hunting crowd to want to buy your product.

  • Pantheon about todays live stream

    Most of the screenshots Ive seen of this game just scream EQ1 all over again.....It was great in its day, but that was 19 years ago.....I really dont want to go through it again.

    Lol, and who says you have to, go play something else. 
    Once again, a dissenting opinion is shouted down, without any attempt to try to explain 'why' what another poster is seeing isn't what they are seeing.  He's said he doesn't want to go through this all over again, why suggest that his opinion isn't welcome on a public discussion forum.  If you eliminate anyone who disagrees, soon you'll have everyone singing the same hymn.

    Is the pro-Pantheon community so afraid of differing opinions that they simply dismiss any opinion that disagrees with theirs?  I thought the biblical thing to do was to embrace the sinners, teach them and then save their souls.

  • Let the pre-Alpha cash shop items flow...

    Galadourn said:
    Galadourn said:
    I have to admit that the development of this game has been the most massive live RPG I have ever witnessed! 
    The devs are literally Role Playing a Development Team :)
    not just the Devs, the prospective players are also partaking in this
    Close, but on the right track.  Player are definitely participating.

    Players are role-playing 'worshipers', just like in every other discussion for every other game-in-development.  Anyone who doesn't believe the 'holy gospel', i.e. pre-game documents from the developers, is hooted at, shouted down, and told "this game isn't for you".  There seems to be an unnatural tendency among gamers to believe anything someone who calls themselves 'Developer' says, and defend it will religious fervor when anyone raises any kind of question.

    The hypocrisy is that the followers are interpreting the words that they have read and are relatively close-minded that their opinion (and interpretation) is the only right one, and anyone who has a different interpretation is a heretic.  Usually, it is the follower who is being close-minded, and refuses to think about anything other than 'the one right path'.

    People still see burning bushes all the time.  Only some of us call that phenomena a wildfire.