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Yaevindusk

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Yaevindusk
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  • Crowfall - Crafting Changes and the Damned Dirty Word - MMORPG.com

    BruceYee said:
    BruceYee said:
    Aeander said:
    BruceYee said:
    Bloodaxes said:
    BruceYee said:

    Aeander said:



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    What MMO has ever functioned on a box price and expansions alone? The breakneck pace of high price dlc required for such an undertaking is unsustainable and completely unrealistic in the MMO space.


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    Uhm... Guild wars 2 AND ESO have a marketplace ontop of b2p and paid dlc expansions.
    Snipped
    Guild Wars 1 was not an MMO for starters. And they released full price expansions at a breakneck pace. That kind of pace might be feasible for a couple years, but it is incredibly taxing on developer's work/life balance and becomes less effective as the playerbase dwindles.

    Plus, Guild Wars 1 did have microtransactions. Costumes, bonus mission packs, bank space, character slots, AI hero slots based on your characters, and more were sold.

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    https://web.archive.org/web/20040602202532/http://www.guildwars.com:80/faq/default.html

    2004 Guild Wars Website.  Stating the exact same thing that they say on their wiki.

    What kind of game is Guild Wars?

    Guild Wars is a competitive online role-playing game. Players can engage in cooperative group combat, in single player adventures, or in large head-to-head guild battles. Guild Wars is a mission-based game set in a stunning 3D fantasy world that offers full, integrated support for guilds. Because the team that is developing Guild Wars has had experience creating successful online game series such as Warcraft, StarCraft and Diablo, the members are familiar with the complex issues surrounding online games, and are creating a game that's both easy to learn and compelling to play long term, and yet doesn’t require players to spend hundreds of hours slogging through the preparation just to get to the fun bits.

    When will it be released? The release is scheduled for 2nd Half 2004.

    Will there be a monthly fee for Guild Wars?

    No, there will not be a monthly subscription fee of any kind, anywhere.

    The 1st/3rd points above are important, and I'll be covering them soon.

    There have been some glaring issues with that you have asserted:

    -About the cash shops
    -About official sources (of which you provided none -- just throwing the word "amazon" and not giving a link, thinking people wouldn't check what a third party seller says)
    -About what works in games (In a loose way, from being incorrect about your examples of successful MMOs without a cash shop and don't have a subscription... and my own assertion that potentially having DLC that splits a community in a PvP game is bad for business).

    ... with you then sticking to one last attempt of "well people who aren't a part of it say this game is an MMO, but this other game isn't an MMO because it doesn't have an MMO award" when backed into a corner by legitimate, first person sources.  Well, I officially give Diablo II my MMO Award of the year.  My credibility is the same as those random sites that say -- contrary to proven facts and developers themselves -- that, for the sake of argument, D2 is a MMO and gets an award. 

    Hmm... No.  Not really.

    It's my own assertion (and one that I held for 12 years) that Guild Wars essentially uses the same technology as D2.  The same darn person that made Battle.net, made Guild Wars (see note # 1).  The same net infrastructure.  The same lobby style glorified chatroom, the same 8 player instance that uses a player's internet to form an instance (and at one point closed it all if they left, until they implemented a transfering tech).  Former Blizzard Employees, with there being a misconception that since they advertised "No Subscription", that it was an MMO despite them flat out saying the contrary.

    The reason I have so much information regarding this is that I've had a half dozen arguments about it.  In addition to having a background in legitimate research and scholastic critiquing (in general) be a part of my early career path, so head cannon isn't that effective on me (and I have an unfair advantage in that I get investor reports about monthly costs on some games).  It's true that there's historical precedence that if you state a lie long enough, it becomes truth ("History is written by the victors, and rewritten by the liars") as far as the populace is concerned since it's been propagated so much, and the uneducated (when it comes to specific topics at hand) begin to believe it (such as many myths about various things that we still believe today) due to not wanting to look into it themselves.  Though they have stated, before release and in front crowds, what it was and maintain that stance on their official sites.  I can pay $20 for a mmo site right now and give Diablo II my all time great MMO award.  People will believe it, because they don't worry about facts.

    Also, you could use the argument of "your private conversation (when I never said I had a private conversation) against my amazon (that you have no link for because it doesn't say anything of the sort now)", though beta forums, an actual 2004 official website (Which also has E3 explanations from that year), their official site and their box copies of the time are all indisputable, insurmountable concrete first person evidence that is without reproach, especially when compared to "Because I remember people saying it is an MMO or because this site owned by a third party -- likely one person -- says so."

    No.  GW1 Is not an MMO.  It was never an MMO.  No one who knew what they were saying ever called it an MMO.  These are opinions / assertions backed by tangible facts from official sources with actual links versus head cannon from third party sources and rhetoric.  You're welcome to have the opinion that it is.  Just as people are welcome to give an apple the award for best tasting orange.  People are welcome to believe that it is an MMO since there were so many people fooled by their "no subscription" (see # 3) marketing tactic to get more noticed in an industry that just saw WoW get released in a still growing online market. 

    JamesGoblin
  • Crowfall - Crafting Changes and the Damned Dirty Word - MMORPG.com

    TL;DR - they're good devs and deserve all our money.

    I've been keeping an eye on Crowfall since the Kickstarter three years ago. I've watched every single YouTube video update and read every article, so I'm very much a fanboy but at least I'm informed. The devs aren't just some upstarts with lofty dreams and promises built on nothing. They are hardened veterans who are very much the old school gamers from the demographic they're building the game for. They know how to make the game, they know very well what their technical and financial limitations are, and in my eyes they are keeping their word to the T. Only the impatient are complaining about release time.

    Every third party news site passing along their updates seems to elicit this knee jerk response from children without perspective. These guys are making a new type of MMO on a budget, and in a reasonable amount of time considering the target scope and quality level. They are directly avoiding the bland WoW formula without flying into the sun like Darkfall.

    At this point, the game is fluid, concise, and mostly functional near the end of pre-alpha. The devs are smart, funny, cool and absolutely hate FTP and PTW. MTX isn't inherently evil if approached legitimately for cosmetics or DLC.

    The game isn't done yet, and they have to pay the bills. They do not have 50 million just laying around to fund another WoW or Everquest clone. I hope in two years, the game is very successful and popular, then all the naysayers are eating their words with a tall glass of STFU and a seasoned side of I Told You So.

    Been following the game since Kickstarter and did all my research prior to donating.  To date I've only helped fund a handful of games after looking into the public backgrounds of those that headed the project -- mainly to see if they were who they claimed they were.  To date, all of the projects I've funded were great successes and released games that I played at least twice.  These include Shadowrun, Divinity: Original Sin, Divinity: Original Sin 2, Crowfall, Grimdawn, Etc.

    They have treated me well over the years as I perused their sites and contacted their support, often getting a response from e-mail within minutes and seeing a lot of interaction on their forum sites.  They gave me quite a bit of deals over the years, free stuff, etc.  The biggest treat being able to trade in kickstarter items that I didn't want for credit shortly after the funding campaign was over.  This is in addition to being the first company to offer actual stock / shares in the company under new title regulations.  As such, I receive monthly investor reports and in depth knowledge.

    The thing is, I absolutely hate PvP games.  It has been my belief that they aren't popular enough to survive in the market -- or at least history has shown this.  Many say that it's just because 99% of those games were flawed in some way.  Though despite all of this, what I saw in my research -- and the contact I've had with the company -- led me not only to donate through kickstarter, but also invest in the company.  They're good people that have treated their early adopters well.  Trying to make as many things as possible as fair as possible -- and if they change anything, giving a promise that they will replace it with something of equal worth (though exclaim that most likely that translates into a much bigger return for us -- and I've seen that first hand with some reimbursements that vastly exceeded my expectations as a whole).

    As a whole they have built up an incredible amount of good will from those that have actually be paying attention to them and participating in the community.


    Some recent criticism and reservations I have are as followed:

    I don't like how they're rewarding big guilds by giving them free money for each member they have.  This seems odd to say, as they're giving free money, but as a person who likes to join small guilds, I think this is just making the "rich richer" as a whole.  It can only be used on cosmetic stuff, but still.  It's also incentives for my own friends to join elsewhere, or for zergs to form because hey, free money.

    Their reasoning for this seems to be the Kickstarter and package promises of guild name reservations and the like.  Though they got rid of name reservations -- also a part of the package -- but didn't really reimburse people for that.  This is the first case of them not following through on reimbursing us -- yet.  Apparently it was a mistake to add the guild reservation in 2016 packages and so they had to keep on selling it, coming up with a plan to pay guild masters back by giving them $10 per member as credit.  So having four members reimburses you fully, and you could potentially profit thousands.

    This is vastly exceeding the "equal value" pledge when changing things.  But also brings up its own problems.  In truth, it's incredibly generous, but only to guild masters.  Which are the ones that likely bought the reservations in the first place.  Perhaps too generous to a fault.  People now worry about joining the wrong guilds and using up their new member status.

    There is also the guild wallet that people can donate into.  Which I actually like, as it provides a safe way to provide for your guild rather than just sending a real check / paypal to a random person.  It may lead to mandatory member fees if a guild is considered #1 in the game and constantly provides you with victories, but honestly that's how real guilds / organizations are.  It's up to someone if they want to be in that guild or not, as well as the guild itself to decide if they offer enough benefits to justify it.  Though this won't apply to 99.99999% of guilds.  In most cases, it will just be a case of giving back to the guild because one wants to.  In addition to if you know the guild master is trustworthy.
    YashaXJamesGoblin
  • Crowfall - Crafting Changes and the Damned Dirty Word - MMORPG.com

    BruceYee said:
    Aeander said:
    BruceYee said:
    Bloodaxes said:
    BruceYee said:

    Aeander said:



    Wrong move. Hard pass. B2P + semi-regular DLC releases should be all that's needed to make a game profitable. If it doesn't, than maybe the game isn't worth playing in the first place.


    What MMO has ever functioned on a box price and expansions alone? The breakneck pace of high price dlc required for such an undertaking is unsustainable and completely unrealistic in the MMO space.



    A few CAN I'm sure like Guild wars? ESO? Some Steam MMO's fuction soley on BTP even.
    Why did this game not go that route with BTP, DLC + optional sub? cause they are whaling plain and simple.

    Has there been any extra content announced for this game similar to DLC or expansions that would justify an ongoing flow of whale funds? So far all I've seen is the base game that they are trying to get ready for the public.

    The notion that MMO's after release costs millions to maintain is an illusion and anyone involved in the industry knows this but aren't saying because that'll curb investment into new projects.
    Uhm... Guild wars 2 AND ESO have a marketplace ontop of b2p and paid dlc expansions.
    Guild Wars 1 not 2. Also, I said "can" if they had to but don't in the case of ESO or even GW2 because more money.
    Guild Wars 1 was not an MMO for starters. And they released full price expansions at a breakneck pace. That kind of pace might be feasible for a couple years, but it is incredibly taxing on developer's work/life balance and becomes less effective as the playerbase dwindles.

    Plus, Guild Wars 1 did have microtransactions. Costumes, bonus mission packs, bank space, character slots, AI hero slots based on your characters, and more were sold. Granted there was no cash shop integration into the game that I can remember, but microtransactions did exist.
    says here that it's an MMORPG https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars

    And I said "can" if they had to just like with every other MMO even WoW but they don't cause of greed and not because they are strapped for cash. If they never added microtransactions their expansions would probably be higher quality than the bare minimum they churn out these days. As a developer why would they spend money to develop content for an expansion when they can just add two mounts or pets to the cash shop and make almost the same amount of money.

    Posted so it has it's own number to reference instead of quoting longer posts people will have to go through:

    Official Wiki run by ANet itself (and accessible from in game)

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars

    Guild Wars is a CORPG, or Competitive/Cooperative Online Role Playing Game developed for Windows by ArenaNet and published by NCsoft. The first campaign of Guild Wars, Guild Wars Prophecies was released on April 28, 2005. The different genre was chosen (as opposed to the "Massively Multiplayer Online (MMO) RPG") due to the perceived differences between the game and other MMOs: the focus on Player versus Player (PvP) rather than Player versus Environment (PvE) play made it almost a unique case at the time, players received their own instanced copy of explorable zones and parties were limited to 8 players each, a tiny number compared to the massive caps of other games, which often allowed for up to 64 players in a single party (and unlimited players in non-instanced zones, which were the norm).

    ----------------------------------------------

    Being a player from their beta tests, the Dev teams specifically said that it was not a MMO.  To ever classify it as an MMO was just pure misinformation and a lack of understanding of what the game was.  It is of the similar ilk to Diablo II in that it has a lobby area and then uses the player's connection to create instances where a party of 8 people can join a game.  Indeed, there was even a time when it showed the IP of the person you were connecting to.  We may as well call Mario a MMORPG because it has millions of people playing it.  To be more realistic, we should call the previous example of Diablo II a MMO as it has the exact same premise.

    One of the selling points of GW2 was it being an "Actual MMO" with a "Persistent World".  Legitimate zones run by their servers, that they could close if not enough people were in them.  Looking at the box of the original copy, it even denotes itself as ANET describes it to be on their site for our viewing pleasure.
    JamesGoblin
  • Crowfall - Crafting Changes and the Damned Dirty Word - MMORPG.com

    BruceYee said:
    Bloodaxes said:
    BruceYee said:

    Aeander said:



    Wrong move. Hard pass. B2P + semi-regular DLC releases should be all that's needed to make a game profitable. If it doesn't, than maybe the game isn't worth playing in the first place.


    What MMO has ever functioned on a box price and expansions alone? The breakneck pace of high price dlc required for such an undertaking is unsustainable and completely unrealistic in the MMO space.



    A few CAN I'm sure like Guild wars? ESO? Some Steam MMO's fuction soley on BTP even.
    Why did this game not go that route with BTP, DLC + optional sub? cause they are whaling plain and simple.

    Has there been any extra content announced for this game similar to DLC or expansions that would justify an ongoing flow of whale funds? So far all I've seen is the base game that they are trying to get ready for the public.

    The notion that MMO's after release costs millions to maintain is an illusion and anyone involved in the industry knows this but aren't saying because that'll curb investment into new projects.
    Uhm... Guild wars 2 AND ESO have a marketplace ontop of b2p and paid dlc expansions.
    Guild Wars 1 not 2. Also, I said "can" if they had to but don't in the case of ESO or even GW2 because more money.

    Guild Wars 1... has a cash shop.  I own everything in it.  All those costumes, Hero Mercenaries, skill unlocks (yes, paying to unlock all skills has been in since shortly after its release), etc.

    In addition, it is not an MMO.  It's a town lobby and uses the player's connection to make instances.    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars  (Official Wiki ran by Anet and not the random internet that has no connection to them; there's even a link to this on their main website www.guildwars.com)

    Also, splintering the community in a PvP game with DLCs that separate people sounds like an INCREDIBLY bad idea (and what can they do to not splinter it?  Make cosmetic DLCs?  That's still a microtransaction).  You need to think about context and actual facts before suggesting these things (such as saying -- as I read it at least -- that GW1 is a MMO and doesn't have a shop).

    Crowfall is B2P + Optional Sub + Cosmetic Shop at the moment.  With them being required to move to the whole "crown" system due to European Laws.  This sort of misunderstanding also occurs when people get upset when a game has 1 USD = 1 Euro in their exchange system.  Due to VAT, the devs / publishers are actually making less per European player than American player at that point as they are required by law (from what I read) to include VAT in their purchase and not just tack it on afterwards.  They're actually eating a loss at that point to make it look more fair, as opposed to just putting in (as an example) $1 = 100 Units / $1.18 Euros = 100 Units.

    francis_baudYashaXJamesGoblin
  • Dear MMORPGs... Fix Your Management and Hire People With Brains

    Not sure if serious, but in case the post is:

    Instead of saying people need brains and insulting anyone that might not "get it" by insinuating that they might have a low IQ... how about you learn how to read?

    MAINTENANCE:  ALL WORLDS (GAME)   7PM-3AM

    MAINTENANCE:  LODESTONE (WEBSITE)  1AM-3AM

    Even when I read the title from the front page, I was thinking... "Wow... this person must have a lot of pent up teenage angst."  Such a thought was reinforced when you tried to set yourself up to be some intelligent person who then can't even connect the dots yourself.  The irony for myself was that I misread the title, thinking you were mad about a ban and yelling at the staff of the website.  We all make mistakes at times.  We just tend put our foots in our mouths when we try to act superior and call attention to others in an attempt to feel good about ourselves.  Like we saw a unicorn and need to tell others how special we are.

    HatefullBlaze_RockerLoke666EldurianXodicAsm0deusJemAs666craftseekercameltosisSBFordand 1 other.