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QuarterStack

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  • Final Fantasy XIV - Stormblood, 10 Weeks On - MMORPG.com

    As I've been saying for a while, they've already demonstrated how to give people a variety of content to do between expansions, by doing so for years in FFXI.

    In FFXI, at any given time, there were multiple different goals you could be working toward. Every one of them was rewarding in its own right, and each had its own unique systems, rules and objectives.

    Let's take PoTD for example. It's a neat system and provided people with something other than the usual grind they'd been doing to level up. But that's it. That's all you got in HW (well, except for Diadem 2.0, which also fell short).

    Meanwhile, let's look at what similarly "event type" content was introduced during the timespan of just one expansion in FFXI - Treasures of Aht Urghan. This is content which, like PoTD and DIadem, exists aside from story missions and side-quests, new zones, and other content you'd expect to have with any expansion.

    ToAU introduced: Assault, Nyzul Isle Investigation, Salvage, Einherjar, Besieged, and possibly something else I'm forgetting about. Now, just about any those systems by itself had more depth, variety and longevity than any comparable system FFXIV has introduced so far, since 2.0/Realm Reborn. Don't take my word for it. Hop on Google and look up the Assault system by itself. Or Nyzul Isle. Look how much each of those systems entailed.

    Those systems remained active and relevant throughout all of Aht Urghan's cycle, and beyond. People were still engaged into that content even into the following expansions, alongside all the other new content added. They didn't peak for a few weeks, and then fall into near complete disuse once the novelty wore off and people had sucked all the usefulness out of them, such as with Diadem or PoTD, etc.

    The thing that baffles me is, why? Why, in a MMO developed around 2000, on far more limited hardware, *for* far more limited hardware (FFXI was locked to dial-up connection speeds, for example)... why were they able to deliver so much more content, with so much more variety and depth, and keep it relevant for so much longer than Yoshida and his team have so far with anything they've done in FFXIV?

    I don't think I ever heard of anyone in FFXI feeling like they had to do the same repetitive grind for months waiting for the next update, or expansion, because there was nothing else to do. I certainly never heard the Director or Producer suggesting people should go play something else while waiting for the next update - because there was plenty to keep them playing in the meantime. In my experience (anecdotal as it may be, though it's many people, across nearly a decade), people would go into a new expansion still working toward goals they'd set during the previous one.

    This is why I'm disappointed with FFXIV, and get frustrated with Yoshida when he spins these absurd excuses for not adding more new options, while over-hyping the meager, short-lived offerings that are, as though it's *so much new content*!. It's why it's so aggravating to see how he seems so satisfied with what he's delivered with FFXIV. I *know* SE can do more than they are with FFXIV. They can do a *lot* more with it. I know this because *they already have* with another of their own titles, with far inferior technology and resources, and without the benefit of having a successful previous MMORPG to refer to and learn from.

    I just don't get it.

    siamesedadsSinfulChristirwenRukushinirrealitydaltaniousKumaponvaloiz
  • BORING

    Golelorn said:

    You can level in ESO in less than 2 days hard play to 50. Of course, a new player can't do that - you need resources. But what game can a new player level to max quickly? And... I do agree with you. Leveling faster should be an option in ESO. I do find it tiresome. Buts its the genre.. not the game.

    Also, do not forget. Once at 50 you do not have to regrind CP.

    And if you think a max CP toon should be had quickly.... wow. CP is better than gear in ESO. A naked 660 CP toon is stronger than a max gear CP 160 toon.
    I don't agree that it "should be an option".

    But here's a question to that end: Why?

    What is it about getting to the end, especially in a genre that's decidedly about the adventure (~90% of the game takes place before the end and contains the vast, vast majority of the content), that makes people feel they have to race to get there?

    I'm sincerely curious about this, because it seems to me people are just stunting and undermining their own experience by playing this way. Time and again, they race to the end, skipping through cutscenes/dialogue, avoiding content that "isn't worth the reward" and generally tracking the "most efficient path to level cap". Then they burn through the end-game content in a few weeks, and are left bored with "nothing to do" because they just raced past/through all of it.

    People will dismiss everything pre-level cap by saying "it's just a tutorial", or "it's just filler", or "it's just there to slow you down so you'll have to play longer". There's a boat load of problems with that last one in particular, especially for as often as I see it argued; of course they want you to stick around as long as possible.. it's at the heart of the business and the design. MMORPGs are long-term hobbies. They're services. They aren't intended to be something you just shoot through, finish, and put down. You can. But that's not what they're designed as. This is why they continually add new content... to give you more to do and more reason to keep playing.

    But here's the catch to that which people never seem to consider... they have to make sure you're entertained enough to stick around at all in the first place. If they can't keep you engaged and wanting to log in to begin with, then the rest doesn't matter.

    It baffles me how people literally complain about a game which, by design, is intended to keep them engaged for a long time... because it provides content which keeps them playing for a long time. It's like complaining that motorcycles "only have 2 wheels and no side windows to keep the air out". It completely misses the point of the design.

    To my mind, it's the most counter-intuitive approach you can take to playing a game at all, much less one specifically designed around on-going adventure; unless it's specifically a racing game where getting to a finish line the fastest is the goal.

    Racing to the end in a MMORPG results only in on-going lay-overs and holding patterns, as players wait for the next batch of end-game content to roll in, so they can race through that and find themselves right back in the same position. That doesn't sound fun to me at all... and from all the complaints of "boredom" I see from such people across the genre, it's clearly not. So why do people obsessively and repeatedly engage in that kind of playstyle? That whole "definition of insanity" thing comes to mind. Why race toward what is ultimately going to be nothing but extended stretches of boredom, punctuated by shorter periods of entertainment?

    Another common thing I see said is "I don't have enough time, and it takes too long to do "x" in -insert game here-". This is another statement that sounds valid on its face, but rather falls apart when you think about it further. Of course you have the time to play the game... you're playing it. The problem isn't a "lack of time", it's that you want to be able to obtain/achieve something in a quicker time-frame than your available time allows. This is where the whole "I have a career and family and can't spend hours playing MMOs like I used to. Therefor MMOs should change to fit my schedule/lifestyle better" type of arguments come from.

    People find it unfair that someone with more time to play can achieve things "more quickly" than they can. It's perfectly fair. At the end of the day, you're both going to be facing the same challenges and obstacles, and probably the same overall amount of in-game time played (not "real world time" - important distinction there) to achieve that goal. The difference is in how that time is distributed. Is it across one 10 hour session, five 2 hour sessions, or some other breakdown?

    What people are really saying when they say "I don't have the time" is, "I don't have the time to sit and achieve that goal in a single session like someone with 10 hours to play does, and I don't like that". Then, they expect the game devs to change the design so they can have that goal in a single session. It's a completely self-entitled mentality. The game developer is not responsible for their players' life decisions. The players are. Devs are responsible for producing a product that people will want to stick around and play. They are not responsible for catering to every individual's life circumstances.

    Rather than saying "I have more limited time to play so here's what the devs should do", the responsible, reasonable thing to say, I think, is "I have more limited play time, how should I re-prioritize and plan my play sessions to achieve my goals accordingly?". It's what people did back in the "old school days" - yes, there were people playing EQ1 and DAoC and UO and all those games who balanced playtime with careers and families and such as well. They adapted to their situation. They didn't demand or expect that the developers do so. Big difference.

    Long rant there... lol. But it's pretty much what goes through my mind when ever I see posts where people talk about how it "takes too long" or "should be faster". There's so much behind such statements.
    IselinDemogorgonlaseritGhostRider00gervaise1
  • BORING


    Gorwe said:
    It's more likely that the combat system is so different from the usual EQ/WoW clone combat that you didn't understand it fully and therefore find it bad.
    If it's just not for you... don't insist.

    It's not that. Even when compared to non MMO games that are played similarly, it feels odd. Remember, I liked GW 1. And the likes of combat of TERA etc are actually quite awesome. And I actually do not like tab target. I like third person reticule targeting much more.

    But ESO has an identity crisis. It has it in general, trust me, but it's most visible in combat aspect.
    You and Sean McCad both seem to be awfully determined to force your personal views as being more "right" than others'... simply because "you say so". You both seem awfully determined to inflate your own views with these really "authoritative sounding", but ultimately meaningless assertions and embellishments.

    You for example, with the "trust me" comment.

    Why should we "trust you" about anything to do with ESO, over our own experiences and opinions of it? Because you don't like the game and we do? Because you feel playing GW1 and TERA gives you some kind of "superior insight" or something?

    That you don't like ESO, for whatever reason, does not constitute an "identity crisis". That's an absurd assertion for you to make. It just means you don't like ESO, and that's all. It's your opinion, and it's perfectly valid for you, and you are perfectly entitled to it. Trying to assign some elevated kind of importance to it, however, just makes you look ridiculous.
    IselinGorweklash2defGolelorn
  • So I was playing ESO - captured this screenshot.


    I rather like that shot. Also a very unexpected place to end up considering where that quest begins.

    Kudos to whom ever can identify where that is!
    TorvalJean-Luc_PicardTeala
  • BORING

    Gorwe said:

    But what if one doesn't necessarily like TES in itself? I mean its gameplay, all the interesting lore can't replace boring gameplay. And I'm so not a fan of post Morrowind TES(the only good TES since then was Shivering imo).
    Suddenly, out of left field... Gorwe appears, apparently unaware of the discussion taking place...

    What an incredibly, weirdly irrelevant question to ask. I'm discussing the whole idea of meta in MMORPGs.. and you're asking "well what if they aren't into the lore and just find the gameplay boring"?

    But I'll answer you with a more reasonable, obvious question... "Why the hell are you playing a game you find so boring and uninteresting in the first place, whatever that game might be?"

    Gorwe, you are clearly committed to challenging me, and others, on our arguments, and in pushing your view that ESO is not a good game, for whatever your reasons. I respect that. But can you please put more effort into asking relevant questions that you couldn't easily answer yourself?

    gervaise1YashaX
  • Don’t buy it.

    ZOS must be doing very well with this game for all the posts I see from people actively and aggressively, perhaps desperately, trying to convince people not to play it.

    There's someone on Reddit who is literally copying and pasting the same post into every thread they find on ESO, telling everyone they're doing so to discourage people from playing it.

    That said, I tried it in Beta and wasn't crazy about it. Tried it around launch and wasn't crazy about it. Came back again a month or two before the switch to B2P and ended up enjoying it, and I've loved it ever since.

    Jean-Luc_Picard
  • Patch 4.05 Preview: The Lost Canals of Uznair - Final Fantasy XIV - MMORPG.com

    "The Lost Canals of Uznair that "is the same as Aquapolis" but features new, fresh enemies to face off against."

    FFXIV's direction in a nutshell

    If something receives an even moderately positive response, and doesn't completely fail on release (ie. Diadem 1 and 2.. Verminion, etc), keep regurgitating the same design over and over, 'til players get sick of it... ignore them and keep repeating it.