Originally posted by KzinKiller There will also undoubtedly be some who carefully follow the rise and fall of SWG and notice the passion of the players who quit. A year, two years after leaving behind the wreck that SOE wrought, ex-customers are still talking about it and following its latest developments. That level of passion for a product must really intrigue designers and investors.
Because, think how long those people would continue paying for subscriptions if the game wasn't crap!
Suppose the 'niche' for Raph's original sandbox design, released when it was actually ready and maintained by competent coders and focused managers, was only half a million people. We know that if you keep those half-million people happy, not only will they not balk at paying $15 a month to live in this virtual world, a significant number will pay 2 or 3 times that for multiple accounts!
I've said something similiar to that on the SOE forums before the NGE, and I might have repeated it here.
I used to work as a Customer Service Rep then promoted to district marketing assistant for an insurance company. One thing that the company kept sending to us and wanting us to relay to all of the agents was that it is cheaper to retain customers than it is to get new ones. Keep your customers happy and not only will they continue paying their premiums, but you might also get to write policies for other items in their households.
Further, once you have happy clients, they might tell their friends about you and you then might be able to pick up new clients. However, if you have an unhappy client, they go out and tell 10 of their friends to avoid you.
SOE's mistake, and I haven't seen any mention of this by SOE as a mistake, is that they dumped their clients in the hopes of picking up new ones. Timing and communication had nothing to do with this, it is the NGE itself that was the problem. So now SOE is seeing their former subscribers are unhappy and going out to tell 10 of their friends to avoid SWG.
Originally posted by Malickiebloo I think an important lesson that has not been learned here . Would be the problems with working with a major I.P. IMO one of galaxies biggest hold backs was the Ip . It set expectations far to high for a game of its type . A major I.P. means squat when the product is not designed for the mass . Banking a product such as this under the notion people will by it for the name was a travesty in the making . As we have all seen the outcome.
IF galaxies had been set in its own world , And told its own story . There really would have been no need for a cu or NGE. The main reason this happened was because SOE , LA realized the game was not doing well . Again expectations weighed heavily on the product under the notion of a name and nothing more . A Star Wars product is always going to be based on just that , The star wars factor . Gameplay is meaningless as is functionality and innovation .
I think basing the game on an existing IP can be a handicap, no question about it. But it also has undeniable benefits. You don't have to work to create a mythology, a backstory, a common worldview that the players share as the backdrop to the game. You've already got it. Without that IP, there's nothing to give the player the feeling we had on the first visit to Jabba's Palace, or the Emperor's Retreat.
Of course, if you just put in great art for Jabba's Palace or the Emperor's Retreat but then deliver such poor game mechanics that Rebels can dance around in front of Vader or the Emperor and call him a n00b, you've wasted all those benefits of using an IP.
Trust me, if I had $90 million a year rolling in, there would be people paid to do nothing but play Vader, Yoda, Solo, etc., and make them the kind of random game encounter that people would talk about for a long time after it happened. They wouldn't be the MMO version of Madame Tussaud's.
Does anyone believe there is a game development company salivating at the chance to make another SW-themed game? After the response SWG has gotten at launch, the declining subs that led to ditching the CURB and bringing in the CU, the NGE fiasco, and the strong reaction from the Refugees, I have to believe any company would be hesitant at the minimum. Plus there is LEC's reputation for meddling and such (insert Scooby-Doo joke here). While I pine for the next SW game, I have to think game dev companies will think long and hard before signing on for that endeavor; at least, all the reputable ones.
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005 Now Playing: World of Warcrack Forum Terrorist
Originally posted by MrArchy Does anyone believe there is a game development company salivating at the chance to make another SW-themed game? After the response SWG has gotten at launch, the declining subs that led to ditching the CURB and bringing in the CU, the NGE fiasco, and the strong reaction from the Refugees, I have to believe any company would be hesitant at the minimum. Plus there is LEC's reputation for meddling and such (insert Scooby-Doo joke here). While I pine for the next SW game, I have to think game dev companies will think long and hard before signing on for that endeavor; at least, all the reputable ones.
Actually, I bet every other MMO publisher would like to get their hands on SWG. If you examine things closely, you can see vast potential to undo the damage SOE did. You now have a proven textbook on what to do and what NOT to do with a Star Wars MMO. And if you picked it up and gave the playerbase what it wanted you'd immediately be seen as heroic.
You'd get the benefit of all the work done before (ie: start with the late pre-CU) with none of the liability (being hated for doing the CUNGE). You'd have plenty of time due to that honeymoon alone to fix and polish that game. People wouldn't even demand an expansion of you.
Consider that SOE threw away at least 100K subs with the NGE. Most MMOs don't have anywhere near 100K subs. The prospect of a virtual guaranteed 200K subs initially plus a rabid following would be attractive to ANYONE (except SOE and Blizzard).
Originally posted by MrArchy Does anyone believe there is a game development company salivating at the chance to make another SW-themed game?
I don't. I just don't think anybody wants to start in the hole, and that is where they will start. Some people already burnt will stay away and wait and see, while others will run and jump feet first then overreact to the first problem they see. Then the ones waiting will say, "see, LA wouldn't let them make a good game".
LA and SOE have to be the ones to fix the SW name in the MMORPG market, IMO.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
Originally posted by jrscott Originally posted by MrArchy Does anyone believe there is a game development company salivating at the chance to make another SW-themed game?
I don't. I just don't think anybody wants to start in the hole, and that is where they will start. Some people already burnt will stay away and wait and see, while others will run and jump feet first then overreact to the first problem they see. Then the ones waiting will say, "see, LA wouldn't let them make a good game".
LA and SOE have to be the ones to fix the SW name in the MMORPG market, IMO.
Actually I think that this is wrong (see post above) About every mistake that could be made has been made, a new company can learn from that and come in unencumbered by SOE's blunders, take the pre-Cu and run with it.
Originally posted by Wildcat84 Actually I think that this is wrong (see post above) About every mistake that could be made has been made, a new company can learn from that and come in unencumbered by SOE's blunders, take the pre-Cu and run with it.
I hope you are right. You are automatically encumbered with all the mistakes SOE has made until you prove you are better than SOE.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
One of the biggest problems for another game developer taking on the SW franchise is having to deal with LEC. I blame SOE for a lot of things, but not all. Blunders were made with SWG in that past 2 years that should never have been committed by a MMO developer with any degree of experience. This leads me to the conclusion that the hands on the controls had no understanding or experience with MMOs. However tarnished SOE is in that regard, they could not have suvived this long without knowing something about the business.
SOE was not the first game company to get burned playing with LEC.
Originally posted by jrscott Originally posted by Wildcat84 Actually I think that this is wrong (see post above) About every mistake that could be made has been made, a new company can learn from that and come in unencumbered by SOE's blunders, take the pre-Cu and run with it.
I hope you are right. You are automatically encumbered with all the mistakes SOE has made until you prove you are better than SOE. It really wouldn't take very much at all. This playerbase is very forgiving. We've put up with a lot. if we get a bunch of Devs who's starting position is they are returning the game to the base that we loved (pre-CU) and that they are going to go forward with that as the core, and listen to our ideas/wants so long as it sticks within that core, they will do fine.
It never would have taken much for even SOE to undo the damage. It's just that they've decided to go in the opposite direction every time.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I really believe the reaction by the Refugees (see the thread about the billboards, for instance, which I love - keep it going!!) as well the well-known mercurical nature of LEC will put a pause in any efforts to make another SW MMO. Yes, if done right the community will by and large love said game developer, but no one can predict the future (NGE anyone?) and what company wouldn't be afraid of a) pulling a DDO and putting a generally poor game on the market that needs fleshing (despite generally positive reviews), or, b) LEC yet again flexing their IP rights muscle and force early release of a game that just isn't ready? I can't believe that every game developer wouldn't seriously consider these first. No one can tell how a game will be received by the public without exception, so any venture is a risk despite focus groups/testing/beta/etc. What company would want to follow $OE and screw it all up again knowing the kind of repercussion they'd inevitably face? And LEC is LEC - while we don't know much of what really happens, they have a reputation I have to believe is very well earned about being a substantial pain in the glutes. Bioware isn't very interested in dealing with them anymore in spite of the very obvious substantial potential fiscal windfall. I really do think these two factors will work against the production of future SW MMOs.
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005 Now Playing: World of Warcrack Forum Terrorist
Originally posted by MrArchy I really believe the reaction by the Refugees (see the thread about the billboards, for instance, which I love - keep it going!!) as well the well-known mercurical nature of LEC will put a pause in any efforts to make another SW MMO. Yes, if done right the community will by and large love said game developer, but no one can predict the future (NGE anyone?) and what company wouldn't be afraid of a) pulling a DDO and putting a generally poor game on the market that needs fleshing (despite generally positive reviews), or, b) LEC yet again flexing their IP rights muscle and force early release of a game that just isn't ready? I can't believe that every game developer wouldn't seriously consider these first. No one can tell how a game will be received by the public without exception, so any venture is a risk despite focus groups/testing/beta/etc. What company would want to follow $OE and screw it all up again knowing the kind of repercussion they'd inevitably face? And LEC is LEC - while we don't know much of what really happens, they have a reputation I have to believe is very well earned about being a substantial pain in the glutes. Bioware isn't very interested in dealing with them anymore in spite of the very obvious substantial potential fiscal windfall. I really do think these two factors will work against the production of future SW MMOs.
maybe LEC will develop it themselves this time.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Comments
I've said something similiar to that on the SOE forums before the NGE, and I might have repeated it here.
I used to work as a Customer Service Rep then promoted to district marketing assistant for an insurance company. One thing that the company kept sending to us and wanting us to relay to all of the agents was that it is cheaper to retain customers than it is to get new ones. Keep your customers happy and not only will they continue paying their premiums, but you might also get to write policies for other items in their households.
Further, once you have happy clients, they might tell their friends about you and you then might be able to pick up new clients. However, if you have an unhappy client, they go out and tell 10 of their friends to avoid you.
SOE's mistake, and I haven't seen any mention of this by SOE as a mistake, is that they dumped their clients in the hopes of picking up new ones. Timing and communication had nothing to do with this, it is the NGE itself that was the problem. So now SOE is seeing their former subscribers are unhappy and going out to tell 10 of their friends to avoid SWG.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
Of course, if you just put in great art for Jabba's Palace or the Emperor's Retreat but then deliver such poor game mechanics that Rebels can dance around in front of Vader or the Emperor and call him a n00b, you've wasted all those benefits of using an IP.
Trust me, if I had $90 million a year rolling in, there would be people paid to do nothing but play Vader, Yoda, Solo, etc., and make them the kind of random game encounter that people would talk about for a long time after it happened. They wouldn't be the MMO version of Madame Tussaud's.
Does anyone believe there is a game development company salivating at the chance to make another SW-themed game? After the response SWG has gotten at launch, the declining subs that led to ditching the CURB and bringing in the CU, the NGE fiasco, and the strong reaction from the Refugees, I have to believe any company would be hesitant at the minimum. Plus there is LEC's reputation for meddling and such (insert Scooby-Doo joke here). While I pine for the next SW game, I have to think game dev companies will think long and hard before signing on for that endeavor; at least, all the reputable ones.
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server
NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005
Now Playing: World of Warcrack
Forum Terrorist
You'd get the benefit of all the work done before (ie: start with the late pre-CU) with none of the liability (being hated for doing the CUNGE). You'd have plenty of time due to that honeymoon alone to fix and polish that game. People wouldn't even demand an expansion of you.
Consider that SOE threw away at least 100K subs with the NGE. Most MMOs don't have anywhere near 100K subs. The prospect of a virtual guaranteed 200K subs initially plus a rabid following would be attractive to ANYONE (except SOE and Blizzard).
LA and SOE have to be the ones to fix the SW name in the MMORPG market, IMO.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
LA and SOE have to be the ones to fix the SW name in the MMORPG market, IMO.
Actually I think that this is wrong (see post above) About every mistake that could be made has been made, a new company can learn from that and come in unencumbered by SOE's blunders, take the pre-Cu and run with it.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
SOE was not the first game company to get burned playing with LEC.
It really wouldn't take very much at all. This playerbase is very forgiving. We've put up with a lot. if we get a bunch of Devs who's starting position is they are returning the game to the base that we loved (pre-CU) and that they are going to go forward with that as the core, and listen to our ideas/wants so long as it sticks within that core, they will do fine.
It never would have taken much for even SOE to undo the damage. It's just that they've decided to go in the opposite direction every time.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I really believe the reaction by the Refugees (see the thread about the billboards, for instance, which I love - keep it going!!) as well the well-known mercurical nature of LEC will put a pause in any efforts to make another SW MMO. Yes, if done right the community will by and large love said game developer, but no one can predict the future (NGE anyone?) and what company wouldn't be afraid of a) pulling a DDO and putting a generally poor game on the market that needs fleshing (despite generally positive reviews), or, b) LEC yet again flexing their IP rights muscle and force early release of a game that just isn't ready? I can't believe that every game developer wouldn't seriously consider these first. No one can tell how a game will be received by the public without exception, so any venture is a risk despite focus groups/testing/beta/etc. What company would want to follow $OE and screw it all up again knowing the kind of repercussion they'd inevitably face? And LEC is LEC - while we don't know much of what really happens, they have a reputation I have to believe is very well earned about being a substantial pain in the glutes. Bioware isn't very interested in dealing with them anymore in spite of the very obvious substantial potential fiscal windfall. I really do think these two factors will work against the production of future SW MMOs.
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server
NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005
Now Playing: World of Warcrack
Forum Terrorist
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.