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The LIE of Balancing CH & Pets
MX13
Member Posts: 2,489
SOE claims that pets are too hard to balance, and therefor, had to be removed and can't be reintroduced. Although pets do raise balance issues, they do not create a large balance issue. In fact, Droids were left in the game, and can be quite potent pets, even at thier nerf levels, as well as some mounts.
Now, high level pets have been added back tot he game. With Chapter 3 Officers get a permenant DataPad Pet, and Smugglers can call in a temp high level NPC that will fight & even heal them. The offer Pet is actually trainable, allowing Officers to have a potent Pet.
If pets were unbalanced, why are they being reintroduced, just like all of the other stolen features that are flooding back in. Simply put, CH & Faction Pets were easily balanced, but SOE determined CH shouldn't be in the game, even though the players wanted it.
So ask SOE: IF pets create a balance issue, why are you adding them back to game? Why are you hinting that Faction Pets will be returning? Why did you lie to us and remove CH? Why won't you give us CH back?
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Comments
The power of Raph compels you!
Foul Smedley, leave this innocent MMORPG alone, go back to the depths of hell from where came!
The power of Raph compels you!
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
I think that the biggest reason is the fact that the NGE is vastly different from when SOE rammed it up ... um ... put it on the live servers and made people pay for it.
When they launched with the NGE, the entire point behind the system was to make combat more like a shooter game. Since pets did not require you to take aim to hit NPCs or other players, it would be in conflict with what they wanted to bring to the NGE. So CH's had to go. Removing CHs also gave them an excuse to remove some other professions so that they didn't have to spend time converting them (everything with scouting skills).
Just one thing you weren't clear on with your statement (to me). Mounts can't attack even if they could at one time. They had the ability removed. Not sure if you realized that.
Droids are the only thing that can attack and you can only have 1. They are all hardcoded the same I beleive now as well.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I'm sure they believe it when they make that claim, but it just means that they learned nothing from the experience and that they have no actual ideas beyond 'balance'. The dev team back then, and the current one, spend way too much time on the min/max playstyles instead of adding content to get people away from the min/max templates.
The only thing I have to say is that Scout/Ranger were NOT non-combat. I would classify them more as support, but most of their skills revolved around combat is some way (traps, harvesting, masking scent/camo to avoid combat, etc).
My theory regarding the removal of the professions is that they needed to remove them in order to get the NGE out for the holiday season.
Actually, I would disagree. It was impossible to "balance" 32 profession. The failure of that logic was to even try to. If anything they should have focused on creating a mix of strengths and weakmess' to combat the FotM mindset of the L337 gamers, and then publicly declare this approach.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Just one thing you weren't clear on with your statement (to me). Mounts can't attack even if they could at one time. They had the ability removed. Not sure if you realized that.
Droids are the only thing that can attack and you can only have 1. They are all hardcoded the same I beleive now as well.
Last time a road my varactyl (about 3+ months?) it could attack, and did. Not sure if that's a bug or not, but it happened. As of what they've changed since then, I don't know honestly.
Correct about the droids, minus the multi droid exploit...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
The only thing I have to say is that Scout/Ranger were NOT non-combat. I would classify them more as support, but most of their skills revolved around combat is some way (traps, harvesting, masking scent/camo to avoid combat, etc).
My theory regarding the removal of the professions is that they needed to remove them in order to get the NGE out for the holiday season.
However, if you recall at launch all damage was based on CL, which would mean a Commando & Scout would have done the same damage with the same wep.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
The only thing I have to say is that Scout/Ranger were NOT non-combat. I would classify them more as support, but most of their skills revolved around combat is some way (traps, harvesting, masking scent/camo to avoid combat, etc).
My theory regarding the removal of the professions is that they needed to remove them in order to get the NGE out for the holiday season.
You could classify them as support, but in terms of 'balance' (I mostly use single quotes in a derisive way), I focus mostly on PvP (which is what the devs were always trying to 'balance'). Scout and Ranger gave no bonuses to PvP or even against any non animal type creature (huminoid NPCs or droids).
I hate the whole idea of 'balance' to give people a reason to play other professions. 'Balancing' professions almost always meant nerfing them and causing people to quit instead of grinding out the new FotM template. Give the different professions (outside of the ones that focus on certian types of weapons, Carbineer, Swordsman, etc.) unique content and people will chose to play them (Smuggling, Bounty Hunting, unique quests, ect.).
Edit begins here (forgot to address your last point):
I agree that getting the NGE out for the holiday sales was a factor, but I also believe that the current creative leads (Helios and Rogue_5) don't understand the appeal of the removed professions since most of them didn't contribute much to killing other players. I believe the release of the new boxed version is what caused them to release the current craptastic 'smuggling system' so quickly.
The only thing I have to say is that Scout/Ranger were NOT non-combat. I would classify them more as support, but most of their skills revolved around combat is some way (traps, harvesting, masking scent/camo to avoid combat, etc).
My theory regarding the removal of the professions is that they needed to remove them in order to get the NGE out for the holiday season.
You could classify them as support, but in terms of 'balance' (I mostly use single quotes in a derisive way), I focus mostly on PvP (which is what the devs were always trying to 'balance'). Scout and Ranger gave no bonuses to PvP or even against any non animal type creature (huminoid NPCs or droids).
I hate the whole idea of 'balance' to give people a reason to play other professions. 'Balancing' professions almost always meant nerfing them and causing people to quit instead of grinding out the new FotM template. Give the different professions (outside of the ones that focus on certian types of weapons, Carbineer, Swordsman, etc.) unique content and people will chose to play them (Smuggling, Bounty Hunting, unique quests, ect.).
Not completely.... Ranger and scout gave alot of extras in PVP. Camps off the battlefield helped in buffs. Especially if you were attacking a town. Drop a camp so the doctors could buff everyone before the battles.
And Rangers..... Well I was constantly called upon to track enemy players in a battle. And I didnt have to go overt either. I would just stand in front of a starport or other site everyone knew the location of. Then call out in group each enemy player, distance and direction. Surprised those rebels more then once doing that. They tried a sneak attack on Theed once. Came in from the south to see twice as many overt Imperials waiting for them. Cut them down quick.
As for CH balance. After you have to fight one a few times, you learn how to combat them quite easily and they become virtually useless in PVP. See a Rancor or Graul? Go after the handler and kill him first.
Kai
The only thing I have to say is that Scout/Ranger were NOT non-combat. I would classify them more as support, but most of their skills revolved around combat is some way (traps, harvesting, masking scent/camo to avoid combat, etc).
My theory regarding the removal of the professions is that they needed to remove them in order to get the NGE out for the holiday season.
However, if you recall at launch all damage was based on CL, which would mean a Commando & Scout would have done the same damage with the same wep.
Commando would still do more damage since they would get larger bonuses to hit their target. Though I think damage was based on the weapon's stats at launch. IIRC, a decently crafted CDEF would do more damage than the one you started with.
The only thing I have to say is that Scout/Ranger were NOT non-combat. I would classify them more as support, but most of their skills revolved around combat is some way (traps, harvesting, masking scent/camo to avoid combat, etc).
My theory regarding the removal of the professions is that they needed to remove them in order to get the NGE out for the holiday season.
However, if you recall at launch all damage was based on CL, which would mean a Commando & Scout would have done the same damage with the same wep.
Commando would still do more damage since they would get larger bonuses to hit their target. Though I think damage was based on the weapon's stats at launch. IIRC, a decently crafted CDEF would do more damage than the one you started with.
Not true... at the launch of the NGE all Professions had the same bonuses, and damage was based on your CL.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
The only thing I have to say is that Scout/Ranger were NOT non-combat. I would classify them more as support, but most of their skills revolved around combat is some way (traps, harvesting, masking scent/camo to avoid combat, etc).
My theory regarding the removal of the professions is that they needed to remove them in order to get the NGE out for the holiday season.
You could classify them as support, but in terms of 'balance' (I mostly use single quotes in a derisive way), I focus mostly on PvP (which is what the devs were always trying to 'balance'). Scout and Ranger gave no bonuses to PvP or even against any non animal type creature (huminoid NPCs or droids).
I hate the whole idea of 'balance' to give people a reason to play other professions. 'Balancing' professions almost always meant nerfing them and causing people to quit instead of grinding out the new FotM template. Give the different professions (outside of the ones that focus on certian types of weapons, Carbineer, Swordsman, etc.) unique content and people will chose to play them (Smuggling, Bounty Hunting, unique quests, ect.).
Not completely.... Ranger and scout gave alot of extras in PVP. Camps off the battlefield helped in buffs. Especially if you were attacking a town. Drop a camp so the doctors could buff everyone before the battles.
And Rangers..... Well I was constantly called upon to track enemy players in a battle. And I didnt have to go overt either. I would just stand in front of a starport or other site everyone knew the location of. Then call out in group each enemy player, distance and direction. Surprised those rebels more then once doing that. They tried a sneak attack on Theed once. Came in from the south to see twice as many overt Imperials waiting for them. Cut them down quick.
As for CH balance. After you have to fight one a few times, you learn how to combat them quite easily and they become virtually useless in PVP. See a Rancor or Graul? Go after the handler and kill him first.
Kai
Okay, you've convinced me to consider Scout/Ranger as "combat prep support" professions. That still keeps them out of the 'proffesions needing to be balanced against each other' group.
The only thing I have to say is that Scout/Ranger were NOT non-combat. I would classify them more as support, but most of their skills revolved around combat is some way (traps, harvesting, masking scent/camo to avoid combat, etc).
My theory regarding the removal of the professions is that they needed to remove them in order to get the NGE out for the holiday season.
However, if you recall at launch all damage was based on CL, which would mean a Commando & Scout would have done the same damage with the same wep.
Commando would still do more damage since they would get larger bonuses to hit their target. Though I think damage was based on the weapon's stats at launch. IIRC, a decently crafted CDEF would do more damage than the one you started with.
Not true... at the launch of the NGE all Professions had the same bonuses, and damage was based on your CL.
Okay, my mistake. I thought you meant the 2003 SWG launch.
The only thing I have to say is that Scout/Ranger were NOT non-combat. I would classify them more as support, but most of their skills revolved around combat is some way (traps, harvesting, masking scent/camo to avoid combat, etc).
My theory regarding the removal of the professions is that they needed to remove them in order to get the NGE out for the holiday season.
However, if you recall at launch all damage was based on CL, which would mean a Commando & Scout would have done the same damage with the same wep.
Commando would still do more damage since they would get larger bonuses to hit their target. Though I think damage was based on the weapon's stats at launch. IIRC, a decently crafted CDEF would do more damage than the one you started with.
Not true... at the launch of the NGE all Professions had the same bonuses, and damage was based on your CL.
Okay, my mistake. I thought you meant the 2003 SWG launch.
Sorry, I assumed we were talking about the NGE changes... I'll try to be more specific...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Not impossible.
Just took some acceptance, realization, and in their case.. lithium drips.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
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The only thing I have to say is that Scout/Ranger were NOT non-combat. I would classify them more as support, but most of their skills revolved around combat is some way (traps, harvesting, masking scent/camo to avoid combat, etc).
My theory regarding the removal of the professions is that they needed to remove them in order to get the NGE out for the holiday season.
However, if you recall at launch all damage was based on CL, which would mean a Commando & Scout would have done the same damage with the same wep.
Commando would still do more damage since they would get larger bonuses to hit their target. Though I think damage was based on the weapon's stats at launch. IIRC, a decently crafted CDEF would do more damage than the one you started with.
Not true... at the launch of the NGE all Professions had the same bonuses, and damage was based on your CL.
Okay, my mistake. I thought you meant the 2003 SWG launch.
Sorry, I assumed we were talking about the NGE changes... I'll try to be more specific...
No need to appoligise. I kinda hijacked your thread into a discussion of the whole 'balance' issue of the pre-NGE professions. I should have started a new thread for it.
The thing is, most of those 32 professions didn't need to be 'balanced', due to the fact that they weren't directly offensive combat professions (crafters, entertainers, scouts). They should have just balanced the weapon specific professions (Carbineer, Swordsman, etc.) and added content to draw players to the other professions. The FotM folks would still try to min/max, but other players would have a reason to not worry about it so much.
The more I read about balance and the Pre-NGE "professions" the more I dislike how it was set up. Pre-NGE I had a character that spent most of his time checking creatures for decent spawns and helping guildmates get through certain things like the corvette. As such I picked skills that belonged in the ranger skill set and switched my weapon skills to what was needed most at that time.
They shouldn't have lumped all these skills together and called them a profession, IMO. I mean, how many pistoleers do you see today? Soldier do not count because there is much more involved in warfare than pistol skills. Neither do police (in the US). The only profession I can possibly conceive of would be someone specializing in pistol markmanship in competitions. And I'm not certain that there is such a sport event.
All pets lost the ability to attack 2 publishes ago. Last publish droids regained the ability to attack and from what I can see, all made equal.
Exploits always exhist in MMO's, if there was never a concern about them there wouldn't be rules against using them. So I wouldn't really consider the exploit part of it.
Playing within the intended design, everyone can have 1 droid so balance isn't at question with them at all. Everyone can have one, that makes it instantly balanced.
Pets can no longer attack, so there is no balance issue there.
Faction pets will be another story, will have to wait and see how they handle that. It may be very boiler plate.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
All pets lost the ability to attack 2 publishes ago. Last publish droids regained the ability to attack and from what I can see, all made equal.
Exploits always exhist in MMO's, if there was never a concern about them there wouldn't be rules against using them. So I wouldn't really consider the exploit part of it.
Playing within the intended design, everyone can have 1 droid so balance isn't at question with them at all. Everyone can have one, that makes it instantly balanced.
Pets can no longer attack, so there is no balance issue there.
Faction pets will be another story, will have to wait and see how they handle that. It may be very boiler plate.
good post Fad.
As for the balancing pets. How soe can state they cannot balance pets? If they did is just further evidence there staff is either grossly incomptent or exceptionally lazy or incredibly understaffed. In either of the 3 senerios it doesn't look good for swg future. Alot of games and game companies have the ability to have player controlled "pets" and dont have issues and if they can do it for droids and not pets all I can say is to that statement is wtf?
All pets lost the ability to attack 2 publishes ago. Last publish droids regained the ability to attack and from what I can see, all made equal.
Exploits always exhist in MMO's, if there was never a concern about them there wouldn't be rules against using them. So I wouldn't really consider the exploit part of it.
Playing within the intended design, everyone can have 1 droid so balance isn't at question with them at all. Everyone can have one, that makes it instantly balanced.
Pets can no longer attack, so there is no balance issue there.
Faction pets will be another story, will have to wait and see how they handle that. It may be very boiler plate.
Did they ever add the ability to fight while riding a mount? I seem to recall being able to defend (auto attack kicked in) when I was attacked, but not use any specials. Though I could be totally wrong and it never actually happened, and if it did, it didn't last very long. This would all be pre-NGE.
Pre-cu you could attack while riding a mount and then it was disabled when the CU hit.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World