Originally posted by Razorback Sounds interesting. This is the only game Im really looking forward to apart from Age of Conan. I am as usual, stupidly hyped. Youd think after doing this for soooo long Id learn not to get my hopes up.... Im a slow learner
I am just the opposite these days. I can't get excited about anything going on with the market at the moment. hMmMmM
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
The card game metaphor seems unnecessary, and seems to arbitrarily insert a metaphor that only the younger set will recognize. I used to work in a anime/video game shop that sold magic/pokemon/etc. cards by the boatload, and I know who bought them (spoiled, socially inept, and obese about covers 90% of them). Familiarity with the fans of the genre causes me to attach a certain stigma to those card games that turns me off to the whole concept. Of course I could just be getting old (30 years old), but I do know that card game do not appeal to me.
I'm guessing the system shown in thesescreenshots was changed. I was hoping for some kind of system that used actual debating rules, that I could maybe even learn from.
Diplomacy sounds great. What a really cool way to actually have a reason to talk with NPC's. So many games use NPC to fill up space, be quest givers, or vendors. Here is a reason to actually interact with them and carry on some kind of conversation. Sounds cool to me.
I like the concept. As usual almost all of this discussion is in vain until we see the implementation. I for one think new innovations are needed in the next generation MMO's, and further generations for that matter, for the genre to avoid becoming stale. With the 100-ton giant WoW right now any innovation is stifled, so I applaud the devs for this unique approach. Words on paper, ideas in your head, or coding in progress has no relevance until we actually get to see the end product.
The diplomacy sphere is one of these things that looks good on paper. I applaud the inclusion of more non-combat content, and I respect the attempt to enliven cities by putting more to do in them. It's a great idea.
But when you more past concepts into implementation, as described in the article, this system could hardly be more lame.
Press funny joke
Press funnier joke
Press scowl
Press funny joke again
Give me a break. That is boring as hell. So while the concept is good the system sucks.
I'd say diplomacy sounds a little bit fuzzy atm, but they did say they just put it in beta 3, right? Sounds about right for a mechanic in its initial test run.
The "Card" thing could just be how they refer to it around the office. But as Amathe points out, it doesn't really matter if it's a card or a hotkey or an icon or a radio button...it still sounds like it could be lame and repetitive. I played Oblivion for awhile and I can do the diplomacy mini-game in my sleep until the NPC is capped out.
As some have pointed out, it is best not to assume too much in terms of hype over fact; I would also advise not to speculate negatively overmuch about unknown systems based a single developer's statements made to an interviewer and then written and published by the interviewer at a later time.
Currently, I have no intention of playing Vanguard, but I have been following it because I keep hearing how it is the next big thing. It becomes immensely difficult to sort through fact and fiction to arrive at the truth, especially when a game is carrying such immense expectations. Usually, nothing is reliable until open beta, assuming you don't have a close friend who is testing.
[quote]Originally posted by Velric [/b] You have it a bit wrong. Yes, there are three spheres, but each character has access to all three of them. You have an adventuring class, a crafting profession, and diplomacy all at the same time. [/b][/quote]
Excellent. I am glad to learn this. I think it would be a mistake if a crafter or diplomat were seperate classes and they would risk being excluded from adventuring groups because they have little skill at killing things.
i think the idea sounds really kool if implemented the right way, and i also think it can and will be alot more complex than just "spamming funny joke".
sounds like you will have multiple "decks" with all sorts of different things in them for different situations. it sounds like it could be pretty kool, just have to wait and see.
Originally posted by Amathe The diplomacy sphere is one of these things that looks good on paper. I applaud the inclusion of more non-combat content, and I respect the attempt to enliven cities by putting more to do in them. It's a great idea. But when you more past concepts into implementation, as described in the article, this system could hardly be more lame. Press funny joke Press funnier joke Press scowl Press funny joke again Give me a break. That is boring as hell. So while the concept is good the system sucks. There are better ways to do this. Take, for example, the diplomacy system in the Civilization series. You have interactive dialogue and the outcome of your negotiations depends not only on your choice of dialogue but your other actions and conduct in the game (past, present and future). So, for example, if you are in a strong position a diplomat will be more conciliatory and if you are in a weak position less so. If you have a history of breaking promises a diplomat will be less likely to believe you will honor future pledges. A diplomat with an agenda will act in accordance with that agenda and your diplomacy only goes so far. Plus you can invole other nation's diplomats in the negotiations, at least indirectly (e.g., your favor with a second nation is something the diplomat has to take into account). That is a lot better system than spamming "funny joke." What they could have done is that all of the NPCs in a town would have personalities, allegiances, plots and schemes, needs, ambitions, fears, etc., and you achieve objectives by trading/ interacting/helping/manipulating back and forth with a number of them, by conduct in and out of the city. So, for example, there could be an NPC who is politically in favor with a King. If you want to be in favior with the King you have to somehow ingratiate yourself to this NPC, or at least be useful to him. There would be many ways to go about doing that, and many ways that could mess that up or cause him to change his mind or even betray you. Maybe there is a female NPC in town the diplomat favors, and helping him get in her good graces would help you get in his favor and thus help you with the King. Or maybe your efforts to play matchmaker will backfire instead. In other words, there would be complex social/political/personal decision trees to work through. What would get the girl to like the ambassador? Well, she has her own needs and you will have to discover what they are, which may lead into other people's needs. A system like that would also tell a story. Clicking funny joke at the right time and in the right sequence doesn't tell a story. It's just grinding. Even more interesting, if your conduct outside the city, in terms of the choices you have made, your faction, quests you have done or not done, people you have met or not met, etc., etc. all factored into your diplomatic success, the story would be different for everyone because what works for you doesn't work for the next guy because no two people have made exactly the same choices. It would be very dynamic. So for example, suppose you had defeated a particular enemy of the NPC you are trying to influence. That may cause him to fear or respect you, which opens up another avenue for you to influence him that someone who had not done that would lack (thus they would have to go the matchmaker route or some other way). For every NPC there would be a variety of ways you could please or displease them (many of which would be hidden or would require figuring out a strategy), and lots of factors would affect your success or failure. And you would be developing a storyline as you go, making it more interesting. But instead you will be spamming funny joke. Sigil will never have any dynamic systems like I described because all they understand is moving a bar, advancing in rank, spamming buttons, and getting more stuff. It's an institutionalized mindset that nobody in that company can escape from. If it's not the same, tired, hierarchical bullshit grind and acquire it's not their thing. What a shame.
While I whole heartedly believe like you, you have to take in considerations the amount of npc included in the game, time it takes to implements your system, budget, staff, the time the game will be release. There is so much npc that given the deadline, the developpers can't do that. They doesn't put the deadline on themselves, it's the compagny that does. It invest so much money in it's product before gaining any amount that it wants some income from the said product as soon as possible. Game compagnies are that greedy. They'll make developpers work as much as 70 hours and plus per week to make sure it's released the fastest possible.
If you take the budget, the compagny will invest a said amount, it has alot of money, but it's greedy and won't use all it's fund for one product. Also you have to take into consideration the amount of staff you will require, again that much more expense for the compagny. Often, it's not that the developpers can't think farther then their nose, they have restraint put on themselves that limit their creativity.
Originally posted by Amathe The diplomacy sphere is one of these things that looks good on paper. I applaud the inclusion of more non-combat content, and I respect the attempt to enliven cities by putting more to do in them. It's a great idea. But when you more past concepts into implementation, as described in the article, this system could hardly be more lame. Press funny joke Press funnier joke Press scowl Press funny joke again Give me a break. That is boring as hell. So while the concept is good the system sucks. There are better ways to do this. Take, for example, the diplomacy system in the Civilization series. You have interactive dialogue and the outcome of your negotiations depends not only on your choice of dialogue but your other actions and conduct in the game (past, present and future). So, for example, if you are in a strong position a diplomat will be more conciliatory and if you are in a weak position less so. If you have a history of breaking promises a diplomat will be less likely to believe you will honor future pledges. A diplomat with an agenda will act in accordance with that agenda and your diplomacy only goes so far. Plus you can invole other nation's diplomats in the negotiations, at least indirectly (e.g., your favor with a second nation is something the diplomat has to take into account). That is a lot better system than spamming "funny joke." What they could have done is that all of the NPCs in a town would have personalities, allegiances, plots and schemes, needs, ambitions, fears, etc., and you achieve objectives by trading/ interacting/helping/manipulating back and forth with a number of them, by conduct in and out of the city. So, for example, there could be an NPC who is politically in favor with a King. If you want to be in favior with the King you have to somehow ingratiate yourself to this NPC, or at least be useful to him. There would be many ways to go about doing that, and many ways that could mess that up or cause him to change his mind or even betray you. Maybe there is a female NPC in town the diplomat favors, and helping him get in her good graces would help you get in his favor and thus help you with the King. Or maybe your efforts to play matchmaker will backfire instead. In other words, there would be complex social/political/personal decision trees to work through. What would get the girl to like the ambassador? Well, she has her own needs and you will have to discover what they are, which may lead into other people's needs. A system like that would also tell a story. Clicking funny joke at the right time and in the right sequence doesn't tell a story. It's just grinding. Even more interesting, if your conduct outside the city, in terms of the choices you have made, your faction, quests you have done or not done, people you have met or not met, etc., etc. all factored into your diplomatic success, the story would be different for everyone because what works for you doesn't work for the next guy because no two people have made exactly the same choices. It would be very dynamic. So for example, suppose you had defeated a particular enemy of the NPC you are trying to influence. That may cause him to fear or respect you, which opens up another avenue for you to influence him that someone who had not done that would lack (thus they would have to go the matchmaker route or some other way). For every NPC there would be a variety of ways you could please or displease them (many of which would be hidden or would require figuring out a strategy), and lots of factors would affect your success or failure. And you would be developing a storyline as you go, making it more interesting. But instead you will be spamming funny joke. Sigil will never have any dynamic systems like I described because all they understand is moving a bar, advancing in rank, spamming buttons, and getting more stuff. It's an institutionalized mindset that nobody in that company can escape from. If it's not the same, tired, hierarchical bullshit grind and acquire it's not their thing. What a shame.
From what I understand, the devs are aiming for what you just described, Amathe. The diplomacy minigame is only one way that you will be intereacting with NPCs - you will also be doing tasks for them such as crafting, running errands, etc. The complex part of this, in my eyes, is figuring out which NPCs to help or talk to. If you know Bob is in good with the King, and you want to get in good with Bob, what can you do? You have to figure out what Bob wants, whether what he wants is good for him, and how you can get it. Also, there might be many things that Bob wants, and some of them might be exclusive.
Laura "Taera" Genender Community Manager MMORPG.com
I think Sigil is going the right way. Not trying to re-invent the wheel, but rather looking at what past and present MMOs are doing and making it better.
Crafting sounds a lot like it is currently handled in EQ2, WoW and Horizon:
- EQ2 and Horizon for the mini games - WoW and Horizon for Harvesting - Horizon for the fact that you never really have to hunt and can just be a crafter
All of these games (and many more i am sure) had a good approach to crafting, but somehow always fell short. I really like the fact that Sigil acknowledges the problem between a high level and low level crafter. Someone starting the game a year after launch will have a hard time selling wares when there is a lot of high level competition already on a server. Creating NPC quests, that ensure players are able to sell back items crafted, is great (and already done to an extent in EQ2, however there it's faulty).
Also a great thing is the sharing of resources. Both WoW and Horizon suffered from resource competition, that often lead to arguments (or in the case of WoW - PvP kills). Being able to share a resource is a great step forward. Realistic it might not be, but for the sake of in game harmony it's fantastic.
Diplomacy is another thing that i am looking forward to. Anyone who has ever played any of the Total War games as well as The Gathering knows this can be fun
Again Sigil is taking something thats been around for ages and makes it better. The original EQ and it's factions were the early signs of diplomacy. Velious comes to mind (incidentally the last expansion the Sigil crew has worked on i believe): 3 different factions (Dragons, Giants, Dwarfs) and quests with each to enhance your standing with them. It lead to a completely different experience of the continent, and did even have zone altering abilities (i.e. the ring quest with Thurgardin - when certain steps of the quest were done, the city would be different, or in the case of the 10th ring war, the entire Great Divide Zone would despawn and present an epic battle to the participants - the players name would be broadcast several times by NPCs and the highest rank for a none Thurgadin Dwarf could be achieved). With Diplomacy, Sigil seems to be expanding on this. Not only quests, but actual interactive conversations with different options and outcomes - brilliant! Reminds me a bit of Neverwinternight as well, limited though the conversations where, the outcome would depend on picking the right choices.
Hats off to Sigil - they are taking a solid base and thats what they base their innovations on. Looking forward to see the end product.
To me this game is going place they are try somthing new and fun. IT like a mix of OLD UO and the EQ's 3d mix in to one game this game i will for sure be buy on the day it comes out to the people that is make this game i wish u good luck AND PLZ HURRY I RDY FOR IT NOW !!!!!??!!!
I hope the diplomacy system is fun enough to warrant playing it many many times over. It would be a poor concept if you tired of it after only a few plays and were still required to play over and over again.
I hope there's lots of cool equipment for diplomacy too.
I wonder how you'll go about selling your items after you've created them. I haven't read much about this so far. Would it be an auction house setup maybe?
Originally posted by Anofalye Sooo...diplomacy sound more or less as: Vanguard: The Gathering?
Might be fun, Magic is an extremely successfull game, a few twists in it are definitely an option, especially with the crowd that are my age or younger. However, I have that weird feeling that again, someone took an example that is way beyond them. Maybe I am wrong, but many try to reproduce The Gathering feeling, few succeed.
See, the risk in taking a successful formulae is that you have to beat the initial, reproducing it or been less is not going to stick...peoples know Magic, they play it...if you bring less, then it would just not be enought. Taking Magic: The Gathering as an example is certainly putting the bar quite high, I am interested in knowing if they really mean it and have what it take to back it up, or if they try to swallow more than they can.
I also wonder...in a Real Time game such as Vanguard, how having a GBT card game going to be good, unless you put a timer on the player? In which case you pretty much ruin the feeling of the initial game and the reason behind it...anyway, worth a try and in doubt, give the runner the benefit of the doubts! (I am still not going to play a must raiding game, even if raiding is "merely 20% and merely a part of the final reward")
I am just going on what i've read, but i'm seeing that you never have to hunt to do the crafting according to this interview, so i'd think if you never want to raid no matter what, there might be a home for you in the diplomacy/crafting arena. It will be interesting to see.
Originally posted by Razorback Sounds interesting. This is the only game Im really looking forward to apart from Age of Conan. I am as usual, stupidly hyped. Youd think after doing this for soooo long Id learn not to get my hopes up.... Im a slow learner
LOL me too. Vanguard feels different though. There are so many haters trying to get people to hate it, I feel it's going to be a magical game.
Comments
I am just the opposite these days. I can't get excited about anything going on with the market at the moment. hMmMmM
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
The card game metaphor seems unnecessary, and seems to arbitrarily insert a metaphor that only the younger set will recognize. I used to work in a anime/video game shop that sold magic/pokemon/etc. cards by the boatload, and I know who bought them (spoiled, socially inept, and obese about covers 90% of them). Familiarity with the fans of the genre causes me to attach a certain stigma to those card games that turns me off to the whole concept. Of course I could just be getting old (30 years old), but I do know that card game do not appeal to me.
I'm guessing the system shown in these screenshots was changed. I was hoping for some kind of system that used actual debating rules, that I could maybe even learn from.
Diplomacy sounds great. What a really cool way to actually have a reason to talk with NPC's. So many games use NPC to fill up space, be quest givers, or vendors. Here is a reason to actually interact with them and carry on some kind of conversation. Sounds cool to me.
As usual almost all of this discussion is in vain until we see the implementation. I for one think new innovations are needed in the next generation MMO's, and further generations for that matter, for the genre to avoid becoming stale. With the 100-ton giant WoW right now any innovation is stifled, so I applaud the devs for this unique approach.
Words on paper, ideas in your head, or coding in progress has no relevance until we actually get to see the end product.
The "Card" thing could just be how they refer to it around the office. But as Amathe points out, it doesn't really matter if it's a card or a hotkey or an icon or a radio button...it still sounds like it could be lame and repetitive.
I played Oblivion for awhile and I can do the diplomacy mini-game in my sleep until the NPC is capped out.
As some have pointed out, it is best not to assume too much in terms of hype over fact; I would also advise not to speculate negatively overmuch about unknown systems based a single developer's statements made to an interviewer and then written and published by the interviewer at a later time.
Currently, I have no intention of playing Vanguard, but I have been following it because I keep hearing how it is the next big thing. It becomes immensely difficult to sort through fact and fiction to arrive at the truth, especially when a game is carrying such immense expectations. Usually, nothing is reliable until open beta, assuming you don't have a close friend who is testing.
[quote]Originally posted by Velric
[/b]
You have it a bit wrong. Yes, there are three spheres, but each character has access to all three of them. You have an adventuring class, a crafting profession, and diplomacy all at the same time. [/b][/quote]
Excellent. I am glad to learn this. I think it would be a mistake if a crafter or diplomat were seperate classes and they would risk being excluded from adventuring groups because they have little skill at killing things.
i think the idea sounds really kool if implemented the right way, and i also think it can and will be alot more complex than just "spamming funny joke".
sounds like you will have multiple "decks" with all sorts of different things in them for different situations. it sounds like it could be pretty kool, just have to wait and see.
While I whole heartedly believe like you, you have to take in considerations the amount of npc included in the game, time it takes to implements your system, budget, staff, the time the game will be release. There is so much npc that given the deadline, the developpers can't do that. They doesn't put the deadline on themselves, it's the compagny that does. It invest so much money in it's product before gaining any amount that it wants some income from the said product as soon as possible. Game compagnies are that greedy. They'll make developpers work as much as 70 hours and plus per week to make sure it's released the fastest possible.
If you take the budget, the compagny will invest a said amount, it has alot of money, but it's greedy and won't use all it's fund for one product. Also you have to take into consideration the amount of staff you will require, again that much more expense for the compagny. Often, it's not that the developpers can't think farther then their nose, they have restraint put on themselves that limit their creativity.
Laura "Taera" Genender
Community Manager
MMORPG.com
I think Sigil is going the right way. Not trying to re-invent the wheel, but rather looking at what past and present MMOs are doing and making it better.
Crafting sounds a lot like it is currently handled in EQ2, WoW and Horizon:
- EQ2 and Horizon for the mini games
- WoW and Horizon for Harvesting
- Horizon for the fact that you never really have to hunt and can just be a crafter
All of these games (and many more i am sure) had a good approach to crafting, but somehow always fell short. I really like the fact that Sigil acknowledges the problem between a high level and low level crafter. Someone starting the game a year after launch will have a hard time selling wares when there is a lot of high level competition already on a server. Creating NPC quests, that ensure players are able to sell back items crafted, is great (and already done to an extent in EQ2, however there it's faulty).
Also a great thing is the sharing of resources. Both WoW and Horizon suffered from resource competition, that often lead to arguments (or in the case of WoW - PvP kills). Being able to share a resource is a great step forward. Realistic it might not be, but for the sake of in game harmony it's fantastic.
Diplomacy is another thing that i am looking forward to. Anyone who has ever played any of the Total War games as well as The Gathering knows this can be fun
Again Sigil is taking something thats been around for ages and makes it better. The original EQ and it's factions were the early signs of diplomacy. Velious comes to mind (incidentally the last expansion the Sigil crew has worked on i believe): 3 different factions (Dragons, Giants, Dwarfs) and quests with each to enhance your standing with them. It lead to a completely different experience of the continent, and did even have zone altering abilities (i.e. the ring quest with Thurgardin - when certain steps of the quest were done, the city would be different, or in the case of the 10th ring war, the entire Great Divide Zone would despawn and present an epic battle to the participants - the players name would be broadcast several times by NPCs and the highest rank for a none Thurgadin Dwarf could be achieved). With Diplomacy, Sigil seems to be expanding on this. Not only quests, but actual interactive conversations with different options and outcomes - brilliant! Reminds me a bit of Neverwinternight as well, limited though the conversations where, the outcome would depend on picking the right choices.
Hats off to Sigil - they are taking a solid base and thats what they base their innovations on. Looking forward to see the end product.
I hope there's lots of cool equipment for diplomacy too.
I wonder how you'll go about selling your items after you've created them. I haven't read much about this so far. Would it be an auction house setup maybe?