ARRRRGGGJHHHH!!! I had a HUGE response typed out and it went *poof* on me lol.
Well anyways I don't want to type the whole damn thing out again, let me see if I can cliff-note my post.
SWG & HORIZONS: played SWG, beta'd both. Lack of any real content is what is killing SWG imo, not soloing but I agree, not much communication in that game unless insulting eachother on the battlefield.
AGREE: DAoC class system is the best balance catering to the solo, group or hybrid player.
DISAGREE: Making classes just for the solo player ( IE: the DAoC Necro ), I don't want to be forced to play a class, I want to choose what class I want, I like more dark, death oriented melee hybrid classes and that's what I want to play ( EQ SK, DAoC Reaver, FFXI Dark Knight, DnL ShadowKnight, etc etc )
AGREE: No game should be catered or created to just the solo player, that will kill the community. The solo player is still a minority player and always will be in these games, I don't think a company should make game dynamics to cater to them. ON THE OTHER HAND: creating a game that FORCES grouping is a bad idea imo as well. Look at FFXI, you can't advance without grouping post level 30 unless you are a Beastmaster, well I wanted to be a Dark Knight, couldn't do it, cancelled sub and uninstalled game. Forced grouping is almost as bad as no grouping imo.
CONCLUSSION: Overall I do agree with you, it was just your comment about "going to play a sp game" that got to me. I hear this all the time and it really doesn't make sense to me at all. SP != MMORPG whether you are a solo, group or hybrid player.
NOTE: I created the term "hybrid player" to describe those that solo alot but still do group which is what I do, I am NOT a 100% soloer nor a 100% grouper
I would tend to agree with the original post, being an old-timer, but then I start to think that we all sound like a bunch of old geezers talking about having to walk barefoot in the snow to school, uphill both ways.
Ah, but how I miss the good old days...
~*~ neschria Bludgeoner of Bunnies
... This is where I draw the line: __________________.
No game should ever force you to group like EQ. To the most, grouping would be encouraged by certain benefits. Better exp, but not to such the extreme solo'ing is worthless.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Roleplaying games are dying because with every game that comes out another aspect of roleplaying is killed off. They are trying to make them more 'fun' with more action etc. But they are removing the actual roleplaying from them, there is no longer any fun in developing your character.
No longer are you restricted in what you can do, more and more do you find yourself starting with a generic character whereby you can develop any skill you want, with only certain skills denied to you due to race or class. I think that this should be the other way around, each class should be well defined, with completely different skills, so that you have to roleplay your character. you could even gain experience from actually roleplaying your character. For example a fighter will still gain xp from killing stuff, but a thief would have to steal things, a mage would have to learn new spells and experiment with new things, a paladin would have to purge evil etc. but if a mage went round beating things with a stick he would only earn a limited amount of xp because mages dont do that, and if a fighter went into a library to learn spells he would only earn small xp etc.
Players should be encouraged to roleplay, and i think that to make a good game really last then those that do not get into character should be kicked off. if you want to PvP and attack anyone you see then pick the assassin character, as opposed to creating an uber character with all the best skills. also for example if you pick a witch-hunter then you should be allowed to PvP witches anywhere you find them, and should be rewarded for doing so, as this is in character.
Roleplaying is about playing a defined role within a world, so rolls need to be as defined as possible. I am not saying that the current games are particularly bad, some seem quite good, but as far as roleplaying goes they are not up to the task and lean more towards action games.
Originally posted by Grym Hello, I played EQ. The game kept me absorbed for over 4 years. I have to tell you though, that I was disheartened with the game almost from the beginning. From my experience, there was no ROLE PLAY. Even on the so called Role Playing servers. Why bother? To me roleplay is vital to game enjoyment. There is more to role play than simply typing "thee" and "thou" when you want to converse with someone. Most people screw up this kind of dialogue anyhow. What about the warrior who only wears chain because he dislikes the restriction on movement in full plate? What about the warrior who uses a sword solely as a preference rather than the stat bonuses an Uber-axe can give? What about the kind magician who casts his spells rarely because he is concerned about the balance of power in the universe? Or the Dark mage who's sole purpose is world domination? Give us taverns to meet and gather. Give us an opportunity to create player driven quests. Don't just tell us to sit and grind the axe to attain that next level or get the next powerful item. There's no fun in that. Let me create an alter-ego and adventure in the way I wish. Explore the world or enlist as a mercenary. Give us content worthy of a game that wants to call itself an RPG.
Grym Goblinsbane
Excellent post, I totally agree. I played UO and EQ. While I played those games for over 4 years, I tried to roleplay with others. With a very small percentage of the players being roleplayers, I found my enjoyment of the games dropped until I stopped playing altogether. It's not the game that gets old, the game is what the players make of it, and in my opinion UO and EQ could be vibrant, long lasting games (or more so than they already are). If there were more people in these games that wanted to expand their playing style other than leveling and the typical treadmill, it might give some new life to the game. Like Grym I play these games for roleplaying first. I do like the game mechanics of leveling, exploring, and gaining fame and fortune, but I do it all in character, which is fun for me. I play Star Wars Galaxies and to me it is the best game that offers roleplaying opportunities. Cantinas, Starports, Player Cities, and many places where player characters can meet and roleplay, player made events and quests have been done with success. There are many players (Kettemoor serer) who play in a similar way that I do, roleplaying in the Star Wars universe can be alot of fun, nevermind the supposedly flawed game (not my opinion, but apparently the opinion of many). It just goes to show how few roleplayers there are, when finally a game comes along that offers so much of it, yet the community bashes the game and says it sucks. Maybe SWG wasn't meant to be like Everquest? Perhaps it was made more for true fans of Star Wars that just wanted to have a chance to roleplay a characer in the Galaxies? That is just what I am doing and it is really fun. Compared to Everquest, it is totally different, but it depends on what you like and how you play, I guess. I hope the newer games (Everquests 2, crossing my fingers) offer the same or more roleplay opportunity, and as many other game features for everybody to enjoy. That will be the game that has a real long shelf-life.
Originally posted by Finwe No game should ever force you to group like EQ. To the most, grouping would be encouraged by certain benefits. Better exp, but not to such the extreme solo'ing is worthless.
Lots of people spend most of their time soloing in EQ-- heck, you're lucky if you don't get run over by quad-kiting druids and wizards in some zones. Bards seem like pretty capable kiters too. Necros, mages, and beastlords are all fair solo'ers. A lot of shadow knights used to fear kite all the time, back in the old days when everyone wanted warriors to tank for them all the time and SKs were out in the cold. Soloing isn't as easy as getting a group, but grouping certainly isn't required to play the game. It's only required by certain classes who need support from other classes, like warriors, for instance. If you don't like having to group, re-roll.
I think that it is better if there are a variety of different games that suit different people's playstyles. Some games should make soloing easy and efficient, for people who prefer to play that way. And some games should require or nearly require grouping, because that forces a certain social dynamic that other people prefer. I disagree with the notion that "no game should ever be like this or that". I think that it would be a good thing if people didn't think of MMORPGs as a particular type of game, and see that there's the possibility within the MMORPG framework to have games that are actually different from one another to gather in different audiences. We can have soloing games and grouping games and PvP games and PvE games and hack'n'slash and crafting and everything else. There's probably an audience for whatever you can imagine, *if* the concept is well planned and well executed.
~*~ neschria Bludgeoner of Bunnies
... This is where I draw the line: __________________.
Originally posted by neschria Soloing isn't as easy as getting a group, but grouping certainly isn't required to play the game. It's only required by certain classes who need support from other classes, like warriors, for instance. If you don't like having to group, re-roll.
Grouping is required to see about 85% of the content of the game. That is what many people object to, though in many ways the content is worth seeing because of the challenge. There is a bit of give and take in this issue, though Brad McQuaid went out of his way to insist that requiring grouping was very much a part of their Vision.
Originally posted by neschria Soloing isn't as easy as getting a group, but grouping certainly isn't required to play the game. It's only required by certain classes who need support from other classes, like warriors, for instance. If you don't like having to group, re-roll.
Grouping is required to see about 85% of the content of the game. That is what many people object to, though in many ways the content is worth seeing because of the challenge. There is a bit of give and take in this issue, though Brad McQuaid went out of his way to insist that requiring grouping was very much a part of their Vision.
Until very recently the hardest mobs in SWG namely krayt dragons,nightsister,force sensitive npc could all be soloed .
This lead to a big proble because quite simply once you figured out the right template for the char you could go thru all the mob encounter like a hot knife on butter and within a few months most combat classes have taken down the highest levelled mobs alone .
So all the combat classes got bored in no time.So there is one game for you that all npc are 100% soloable till recently.
Comments
ARRRRGGGJHHHH!!! I had a HUGE response typed out and it went *poof* on me lol.
Well anyways I don't want to type the whole damn thing out again, let me see if I can cliff-note my post.
SWG & HORIZONS: played SWG, beta'd both. Lack of any real content is what is killing SWG imo, not soloing but I agree, not much communication in that game unless insulting eachother on the battlefield.
AGREE: DAoC class system is the best balance catering to the solo, group or hybrid player.
DISAGREE: Making classes just for the solo player ( IE: the DAoC Necro ), I don't want to be forced to play a class, I want to choose what class I want, I like more dark, death oriented melee hybrid classes and that's what I want to play ( EQ SK, DAoC Reaver, FFXI Dark Knight, DnL ShadowKnight, etc etc )
AGREE: No game should be catered or created to just the solo player, that will kill the community. The solo player is still a minority player and always will be in these games, I don't think a company should make game dynamics to cater to them. ON THE OTHER HAND: creating a game that FORCES grouping is a bad idea imo as well. Look at FFXI, you can't advance without grouping post level 30 unless you are a Beastmaster, well I wanted to be a Dark Knight, couldn't do it, cancelled sub and uninstalled game. Forced grouping is almost as bad as no grouping imo.
CONCLUSSION: Overall I do agree with you, it was just your comment about "going to play a sp game" that got to me. I hear this all the time and it really doesn't make sense to me at all. SP != MMORPG whether you are a solo, group or hybrid player.
NOTE: I created the term "hybrid player" to describe those that solo alot but still do group which is what I do, I am NOT a 100% soloer nor a 100% grouper
MMORPGs are like Crack. The first high is the best and you always go back for more hoping for that same first high.
Not that i know anything about crack...
Thats just the word on the street. 
I would tend to agree with the original post, being an old-timer, but then I start to think that we all sound like a bunch of old geezers talking about having to walk barefoot in the snow to school, uphill both ways.
Ah, but how I miss the good old days...
~*~
neschria
Bludgeoner of Bunnies
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Roleplaying games are dying because with every game that comes out another aspect of roleplaying is killed off. They are trying to make them more 'fun' with more action etc. But they are removing the actual roleplaying from them, there is no longer any fun in developing your character.
No longer are you restricted in what you can do, more and more do you find yourself starting with a generic character whereby you can develop any skill you want, with only certain skills denied to you due to race or class. I think that this should be the other way around, each class should be well defined, with completely different skills, so that you have to roleplay your character. you could even gain experience from actually roleplaying your character. For example a fighter will still gain xp from killing stuff, but a thief would have to steal things, a mage would have to learn new spells and experiment with new things, a paladin would have to purge evil etc. but if a mage went round beating things with a stick he would only earn a limited amount of xp because mages dont do that, and if a fighter went into a library to learn spells he would only earn small xp etc.
Players should be encouraged to roleplay, and i think that to make a good game really last then those that do not get into character should be kicked off. if you want to PvP and attack anyone you see then pick the assassin character, as opposed to creating an uber character with all the best skills. also for example if you pick a witch-hunter then you should be allowed to PvP witches anywhere you find them, and should be rewarded for doing so, as this is in character.
Roleplaying is about playing a defined role within a world, so rolls need to be as defined as possible. I am not saying that the current games are particularly bad, some seem quite good, but as far as roleplaying goes they are not up to the task and lean more towards action games.
At least thats my opinion anyway
Muahahahahahahaha
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
Lots of people spend most of their time soloing in EQ-- heck, you're lucky if you don't get run over by quad-kiting druids and wizards in some zones. Bards seem like pretty capable kiters too. Necros, mages, and beastlords are all fair solo'ers. A lot of shadow knights used to fear kite all the time, back in the old days when everyone wanted warriors to tank for them all the time and SKs were out in the cold. Soloing isn't as easy as getting a group, but grouping certainly isn't required to play the game. It's only required by certain classes who need support from other classes, like warriors, for instance. If you don't like having to group, re-roll.
I think that it is better if there are a variety of different games that suit different people's playstyles. Some games should make soloing easy and efficient, for people who prefer to play that way. And some games should require or nearly require grouping, because that forces a certain social dynamic that other people prefer. I disagree with the notion that "no game should ever be like this or that". I think that it would be a good thing if people didn't think of MMORPGs as a particular type of game, and see that there's the possibility within the MMORPG framework to have games that are actually different from one another to gather in different audiences. We can have soloing games and grouping games and PvP games and PvE games and hack'n'slash and crafting and everything else. There's probably an audience for whatever you can imagine, *if* the concept is well planned and well executed.
~*~
neschria
Bludgeoner of Bunnies
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
Grouping is required to see about 85% of the content of the game. That is what many people object to, though in many ways the content is worth seeing because of the challenge. There is a bit of give and take in this issue, though Brad McQuaid went out of his way to insist that requiring grouping was very much a part of their Vision.
Grouping is required to see about 85% of the content of the game. That is what many people object to, though in many ways the content is worth seeing because of the challenge. There is a bit of give and take in this issue, though Brad McQuaid went out of his way to insist that requiring grouping was very much a part of their Vision.
Until very recently the hardest mobs in SWG namely krayt dragons,nightsister,force sensitive npc could all be soloed .
This lead to a big proble because quite simply once you figured out the right template for the char you could go thru all the mob encounter like a hot knife on butter and within a few months most combat classes have taken down the highest levelled mobs alone .
So all the combat classes got bored in no time.So there is one game for you that all npc are 100% soloable till recently.