Originally posted by GRIMACHU lol 100% mages while there also other classes to play LMAO.
Yes yes, non-class based MMOs do suck...everyone ends up min-maxing to the exact same build.
As everyone clearly does in EVE and SoR (that's sarcasm, for the uninitiated)--yes, yes, if you're going to complain about skill-based systems, do at least learn something about them first.
Apply lemon juice and candle flame here to reveal secret message.
Originally posted by 0over0 yes, yes, if you're going to complain about skill-based systems, do at least learn something about them first.
I know enough be sure that what I said in my previous post happens more often than not in "skill-based" systems. It's obviously happening to some extent in SoR (not everyone is a min-maxer of course, so not everyone ends up the same, but the majority of those who consider themselves "good" players do).
EvE isn't a "skill-based" system at heart, it's a gear-based one (where you need skill qualifications to use your gear) with economy-centric gameplay, so its a different kettle of fish from Ryzom, and other "skill-based" PvE/grind/MMO games.
"I know enough be sure that what I said in my previous post happens more often than not in "skill-based" systems."
My issue is I fail to really see your point.
In Dark Age of Camelot they call certain classes "flavor of the month" for a reason... its the same exact thing. Just like people that play various realms/servers based on who has the most relic bonuses at the time. Rather than just pick a server/realm/class and playing it no matter what.
This isn't something that is unique to skill based systems... which is why I don't see the point you are trying to make in regards to your min/max statements.
There were "fotm" skill sets in UO depending on the point in time after release.
As a recent example on the DAoC classic servers you almost never saw hunters. Patch goes in to give them a boost and there are hunters all over.
While various (mostly caster) classes are always high in numbers.
Its not like you see armies of rejuv clerics running around... because everyone and their grandmother wants to play the most uber dps class.
Anyway sorry for the ramble add on... I just don't see where you can say skill based systems are unique in people trying to play the most uber setup they can find.
Although I absolutely love the idea of player made content and what Ryzom Ring is going to let people do, but I have one gigantic concern about the entire idea. Why should I have to create content for a game I have already bought and continue to pay a fee for monthly?
Now, were they lower the monthly fee, or even eliminate it, for regular solid content submission I would consider it, but then I would begin to wonder why they didn't just hire me for a job so I could get paid for real.
Well, the point is, I'm not talking about "flavour of the month" builds or classes. I'm saying that in a lot of "skill-based" systems there is ONE "best" build to do a certain thing. (Because there are a number of different "things" that need to be done - in any good MMO - there'll be a few "best builds". eg. the best leveling build, the best PvP build, the best group build)
Taking this purely hypothetically. If a skill-based sytem allows me to become fully proficient in: mezzing, and using ranged high damage skills, then WHY would I do anything else? Why risk getting close to a mob when I can mez him and not allow him freedom to do anything? Why would I take an attack that is less damage than an equally skill-point-valued skill-path. What makes skill-based systems even worse is, that not only do you generally have enough points to do this type of thing (at least when you get enough skill-points, however they are accumulated) but you also may have enough "skill-points" left over to increase your Hit Points/Mana & Armor-class/Armor-level.
The reason that I'm talking hypothetically is because nearly EVERY skill-based system has some sort of "class" limitations built into it (ie. if you pick one thing it limits your ability to skillup in another...thus becoming a defacto "class" system anyway). Because if they didn't do this you'd get the abuse that results when EVERYBODY can become a heavily armored, massively hit-pointed, ranged nuker, who can also mezz (and sometimes even use a melee weapon with proficiency too).
(The fact that patches and skill alterations can change this "uber-build" doesn't negate the problem, it just sets it back a few weeks until everyone can match the new "uber-build" or, if you aren't able to change skills, end up with a gimped build and start complaining on the game forums )
Anyway, this is a bit off-topic (though Ryzom has the problem we're discussing) so I'll sumarize my point and best leave it at that. I'm not trying to say skill-based systems are unique in having this problem, but they certainly lend themselves to it far more. The main reason being that in a class based system, NO ONE CLASS can do everything, therefore you negate the fact that everyone will be the same class.
Originally posted by Velric Although I absolutely love the idea of player made content and what Ryzom Ring is going to let people do, but I have one gigantic concern about the entire idea. Why should I have to create content for a game I have already bought and continue to pay a fee for monthly?
Now, were they lower the monthly fee, or even eliminate it, for regular solid content submission I would consider it, but then I would begin to wonder why they didn't just hire me for a job so I could get paid for real.
you dont have to. There is still tons of dev made content, and you can play what others have made.
Simple.
Originally posted by hadz Well, the point is, I'm not talking about "flavour of the month" builds or classes. I'm saying that in a lot of "skill-based" systems there is ONE "best" build to do a certain thing. (Because there are a number of different "things" that need to be done - in any good MMO - there'll be a few "best builds". eg. the best leveling build, the best PvP build, the best group build) Taking this purely hypothetically. If a skill-based sytem allows me to become fully proficient in: mezzing, and using ranged high damage skills, then WHY would I do anything else? Why risk getting close to a mob when I can mez him and not allow him freedom to do anything? Why would I take an attack that is less damage than an equally skill-point-valued skill-path. What makes skill-based systems even worse is, that not only do you generally have enough points to do this type of thing (at least when you get enough skill-points, however they are accumulated) but you also may have enough "skill-points" left over to increase your Hit Points/Mana & Armor-class/Armor-level. The reason that I'm talking hypothetically is because nearly EVERY skill-based system has some sort of "class" limitations built into it (ie. if you pick one thing it limits your ability to skillup in another...thus becoming a defacto "class" system anyway). Because if they didn't do this you'd get the abuse that results when EVERYBODY can become a heavily armored, massively hit-pointed, ranged nuker, who can also mezz (and sometimes even use a melee weapon with proficiency too). (The fact that patches and skill alterations can change this "uber-build" doesn't negate the problem, it just sets it back a few weeks until everyone can match the new "uber-build" or, if you aren't able to change skills, end up with a gimped build and start complaining on the game forums ) Anyway, this is a bit off-topic (though Ryzom has the problem we're discussing) so I'll sumarize my point and best leave it at that. I'm not trying to say skill-based systems are unique in having this problem, but they certainly lend themselves to it far more. The main reason being that in a class based system, NO ONE CLASS can do everything, therefore you negate the fact that everyone will be the same class.
Um, have you played ryzom? Cuse then you would know that what you are describing would be very hard to do, as its not just a skill based system. You also create your own actions by combining others skill into an action and for each + you add, you have to balance this with a - (like HP or more SAP drain to caster)...
The chances of to people having the same action created in the same way is low. One or the other will have an advantage or not.
Diversity marches on.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth Um, have you played ryzom? Cuse then you would know that what you are describing would be very hard to do, as its not just a skill based system.
I have played Ryzom and the skill creation/combination system is quite inventive and interesting. Leaving out the slight variations in the way skills are created though, it's still FAR better to have some skills than others, thus the coments of previous posters in this thread saying that everyone is a mage (I haven't played Ryzom for a long time though, so I can neither confirm or deny the truth of that comment.
As I was describing in general terms in my previous post (no matter how the skills are created) there's still NO REASON in a skill-based game to NOT give your character the highest dps skills and the greatest protection (HP/Armor/Defensive Spells) that you can get. So if you can still do that in Ryzom, why wouldn't you...and if everyone does that, then everyone will have similar (though in Ryzom, not identical) skill builds.
The big exception to all this is people like me who don't care what the best way to do something is...and just build their toon haphazardly...haha.
Originally posted by hadz Well, the point is, I'm not talking about "flavour of the month" builds or classes. I'm saying that in a lot of "skill-based" systems there is ONE "best" build to do a certain thing. (Because there are a number of different "things" that need to be done - in any good MMO - there'll be a few "best builds". eg. the best leveling build, the best PvP build, the best group build) Taking this purely hypothetically. If a skill-based sytem allows me to become fully proficient in: mezzing, and using ranged high damage skills, then WHY would I do anything else? Why risk getting close to a mob when I can mez him and not allow him freedom to do anything? Why would I take an attack that is less damage than an equally skill-point-valued skill-path. What makes skill-based systems even worse is, that not only do you generally have enough points to do this type of thing (at least when you get enough skill-points, however they are accumulated) but you also may have enough "skill-points" left over to increase your Hit Points/Mana & Armor-class/Armor-level. The reason that I'm talking hypothetically is because nearly EVERY skill-based system has some sort of "class" limitations built into it (ie. if you pick one thing it limits your ability to skillup in another...thus becoming a defacto "class" system anyway). Because if they didn't do this you'd get the abuse that results when EVERYBODY can become a heavily armored, massively hit-pointed, ranged nuker, who can also mezz (and sometimes even use a melee weapon with proficiency too). (The fact that patches and skill alterations can change this "uber-build" doesn't negate the problem, it just sets it back a few weeks until everyone can match the new "uber-build" or, if you aren't able to change skills, end up with a gimped build and start complaining on the game forums ) Anyway, this is a bit off-topic (though Ryzom has the problem we're discussing) so I'll sumarize my point and best leave it at that. I'm not trying to say skill-based systems are unique in having this problem, but they certainly lend themselves to it far more. The main reason being that in a class based system, NO ONE CLASS can do everything, therefore you negate the fact that everyone will be the same class.
I agree with what you are saying, but not with your solution.
My solution would be 3 fold
1- To make skills situational. You have to make it so that each skill has a need in a system. EX: So maybe a fireball sucks against a stone golem but kicks the hell outta wood golem.
2- Let a person be able to learn every skill, but have skills become more effective with use and degrade when they are not used. EX1: You always use lunge, so since you use lunge all the time you get 100% effectiveness outta it. EX2: You learned Windmill kick long ago but never used it. Your weapon was just disarmed and you used windmill kick, since you never used it you have 25% effectiveness with it.
BTW- I would also create certain plateaus that once you hit a level of effectiveness you can never fall below a certian point. EX: When you hit 50%, you could never drop below 35%, when you hit 75% you could never drop below 50%, when you hit 100% you could never drop below 75%.
3- I would create a great variaty of skills/stances that would basically target the weakness of other stances/skills. EX1: Sung Tzu's Dragon Stance would be very effective defense verse all lounge attacks. EX2: Lounge attacks would be a very effective offense verse a Sheild Parry stance.
Useful Variety, variety that is not linear, can stop the FOTM/Uber-Build syndrome.
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Originally posted by Velric Although I absolutely love the idea of player made content and what Ryzom Ring is going to let people do, but I have one gigantic concern about the entire idea. Why should I have to create content for a game I have already bought and continue to pay a fee for monthly? ...
Well, for starters nobody forces you to create content, you can just play as you like and use the content that others are producing. Furthermore, the Ryzom Ring is a free expansion thus you can try it without having to shell out money for it.
And I'm quite sure that there will be plenty of content once the Ring is released because many people like to do these sort of things. It's a role-players wet dream.
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This thing worked for NWN and basically made it the game it is.
But not all the content is good. You should have seen some shitier NWN contents. And that is probably why no persistant server ever accepted user generated content
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
The chances of to people having the same action created in the same way is low. One or the other will have an advantage or not.
Power was always maxed, nobody wanted to have a spell which had a slow cast speed and a tiny range, therefore everyone had -sap & -hp when they casted a spell. Why? Healers.
I stopped playing the game because melee was underpowered. I was fantasizing about tankers in front, then the ranged fighters standing behind them and behind them the casting mages, but at the moment it's more like mages in front, healers backing up. Some tweaking could've fixed all of this, yet they choose for a scenario designer.
Originally posted by TheWarc Originally posted by Mrbloodworth
The chances of to people having the same action created in the same way is low. One or the other will have an advantage or not.
Power was always maxed, nobody wanted to have a spell which had a slow cast speed and a tiny range, therefore everyone had -sap & -hp when they casted a spell. Why? Healers.
I stopped playing the game because melee was underpowered. I was fantasizing about tankers in front, then the ranged fighters standing behind them and behind them the casting mages, but at the moment it's more like mages in front, healers backing up. Some tweaking could've fixed all of this, yet they choose for a scenario designer. Urm you obviously havn't been playing in a while TheWarc, in a 1 on 1 dual 250 melee beats 250 ele most of the time. Outpost battles its fairly balanced, everyone has their roles, range users can change the course of a battle, its like the secret weapon noone expects to be so good.
The skills arnt completely in balance, but every skill is useful in its own circumstances, melee and range are more specialist, but can be more powerful when used right.
Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo Originally posted by hadz Well, the point is, I'm not talking about "flavour of the month" builds or classes. I'm saying that in a lot of "skill-based" systems there is ONE "best" build to do a certain thing. (Because there are a number of different "things" that need to be done - in any good MMO - there'll be a few "best builds". eg. the best leveling build, the best PvP build, the best group build) Taking this purely hypothetically. If a skill-based sytem allows me to become fully proficient in: mezzing, and using ranged high damage skills, then WHY would I do anything else? Why risk getting close to a mob when I can mez him and not allow him freedom to do anything? Why would I take an attack that is less damage than an equally skill-point-valued skill-path. What makes skill-based systems even worse is, that not only do you generally have enough points to do this type of thing (at least when you get enough skill-points, however they are accumulated) but you also may have enough "skill-points" left over to increase your Hit Points/Mana & Armor-class/Armor-level. The reason that I'm talking hypothetically is because nearly EVERY skill-based system has some sort of "class" limitations built into it (ie. if you pick one thing it limits your ability to skillup in another...thus becoming a defacto "class" system anyway). Because if they didn't do this you'd get the abuse that results when EVERYBODY can become a heavily armored, massively hit-pointed, ranged nuker, who can also mezz (and sometimes even use a melee weapon with proficiency too). (The fact that patches and skill alterations can change this "uber-build" doesn't negate the problem, it just sets it back a few weeks until everyone can match the new "uber-build" or, if you aren't able to change skills, end up with a gimped build and start complaining on the game forums ) Anyway, this is a bit off-topic (though Ryzom has the problem we're discussing) so I'll sumarize my point and best leave it at that. I'm not trying to say skill-based systems are unique in having this problem, but they certainly lend themselves to it far more. The main reason being that in a class based system, NO ONE CLASS can do everything, therefore you negate the fact that everyone will be the same class.
I agree with what you are saying, but not with your solution.
My solution would be 3 fold
1- To make skills situational. You have to make it so that each skill has a need in a system. EX: So maybe a fireball sucks against a stone golem but kicks the hell outta wood golem.
2- Let a person be able to learn every skill, but have skills become more effective with use and degrade when they are not used. EX1: You always use lunge, so since you use lunge all the time you get 100% effectiveness outta it. EX2: You learned Windmill kick long ago but never used it. Your weapon was just disarmed and you used windmill kick, since you never used it you have 25% effectiveness with it.
BTW- I would also create certain plateaus that once you hit a level of effectiveness you can never fall below a certian point. EX: When you hit 50%, you could never drop below 35%, when you hit 75% you could never drop below 50%, when you hit 100% you could never drop below 75%.
3- I would create a great variaty of skills/stances that would basically target the weakness of other stances/skills. EX1: Sung Tzu's Dragon Stance would be very effective defense verse all lounge attacks. EX2: Lounge attacks would be a very effective offense verse a Sheild Parry stance.
Useful Variety, variety that is not linear, can stop the FOTM/Uber-Build syndrome.
Problem is, Ryzom dosnt suffer from what your trying to fix.
The people making it seem as those ryzom is just another "Skill based game" are completely wrong.
I feel they should play the game and see for themselves. There are just to many variations to account for.
Most skills are situational, most combinations of abilities applied to actions are situational, and based on weapon, and things like your appoints last move, some can, if you make them, only be available if they block or dodge skills, and don’t forget those actions are also custom.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Originally posted by vqly So how about that ryzom ring eh? *wink *wink *nod *nod say no more
Its a great idea, and a great tool set.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Originally posted by Larsa Originally posted by Velric Although I absolutely love the idea of player made content and what Ryzom Ring is going to let people do, but I have one gigantic concern about the entire idea. Why should I have to create content for a game I have already bought and continue to pay a fee for monthly? ...
Well, for starters nobody forces you to create content, you can just play as you like and use the content that others are producing. Furthermore, the Ryzom Ring is a free expansion thus you can try it without having to shell out money for it.
And I'm quite sure that there will be plenty of content once the Ring is released because many people like to do these sort of things. It's a role-players wet dream.
I understand that you do not have create content if you do not want to, but it seems to be a way for the developers to not have to work on any new content as they can have other people PAY them to make content.
Originally posted by TheWarc I'd rather have them balancing classes first, mostly ranged. Also some new skills for melee & ranged would be nice because ryzom's population is 100% mage.
That's quite a bit of an exaggeration. It may be that for PVP mages "rule all." I don't know, since I don't do PVP at all.
However I see tons of people out there in the PVE game using weapons. In fact my guild, the Order of the Dragonblades, although we do have people who specialize in all skills, emphasizes melee combat (and specifically swords, daggers, etc -- i.e., blades).
There are plenty of melee fighters out there. Ranged fighters, yes, that needs work. But to say that Ryzom's population is 100% mage is just incorrect.
Originally posted by Velric Originally posted by Larsa Originally posted by VelricAlthough I absolutely love the idea of player made content and what Ryzom Ring is going to let people do, but I have one gigantic concern about the entire idea. Why should I have to create content for a game I have already bought and continue to pay a fee for monthly? ... Well, for starters nobody forces you to create content, you can just play as you like and use the content that others are producing. Furthermore, the Ryzom Ring is a free expansion thus you can try it without having to shell out money for it. And I'm quite sure that there will be plenty of content once the Ring is released because many people like to do these sort of things. It's a role-players wet dream. I understand that you do not have create content if you do not want to, but it seems to be a way for the developers to not have to work on any new content as they can have other people PAY them to make content.
I have played Ryzom and the skill creation/combination system is quite inventive and interesting. Leaving out the slight variations in the way skills are created though, it's still FAR better to have some skills than others, thus the coments of previous posters in this thread saying that everyone is a mage (I haven't played Ryzom for a long time though, so I can neither confirm or deny the truth of that comment.
Since most of your argument seems to be predicated on the fact that someone said "everyone's a mage" -- and since everyone is NOT a mage, then you're building your argument on a foundation made of playing cards (i.e. a weak one).
The thing about Ryzom is, unless you choose not to, everyone can be everything. Therefore even though I'd say my character, Sandaara, is "not a mage", technically she does have 40 or so levels worth of magic skill in both offensive and defensive magic. But those skills are not her main ones -- her main skills are 1-handed and close combat, and she uses sword + dagger to do two-weapon fighting. In those she's about 100th level. She's also 100th level in two of the harvesting skills, and 70th or so in all the jewel making skills.
This makes her sort of a Melee warrior/digger/jeweler. BUT... she also CAN technically cast spells and craft armor -- just not to any great level of skill.
There's still NO REASON in a skill-based game to NOT give your character the highest dps skills and the greatest protection (HP/Armor/Defensive Spells) that you can get.
Actually, yes there is, at least in Ryzom. If you want the highest possible DPS, you're going to have to go double wield or 2-handed. As soon as you do that, it means you can't have a shield, which means you are not going to block, defend, parry, etc, as much. So you have to decide -- do I want to "tank" and take damage, or do I want to "scrap" and give out the damage. In class based games, like City of Heroes, this decision has to be made at the time of character creation. In Ryzom, it can be made moment to moment (provided you have the appropriate skills). My character usually dual wields and does good damage. I have her do that because she's usually one of the lower level people in the group (I level very slowly since I'm not a powergrinder). However, when Sandaara's high level relative to the group and has to protect newbies or spellcasters, I switch the dagger for a shield, and she goes into "tank mode", and I spend more time taunting and holding aggro, and less time worrying about doing damage.
There is no game on earth that will let you simultaneously do all things well. In Ryzom, you can do all things well on the same character, at different times, if you have worked the skills up to a decent level. In class based games, if you want to change roles, you're going to have to switch characters. For example, using COH again, if my team needs someone to "hold aggro" and I'm playing a blaster, I can't do it with that character. I end up logging out, and switching to my "tanker", and logging in with that, to do the aggro holding.
So if you can still do that in Ryzom, why wouldn't you...and if everyone does that, then everyone will have similar (though in Ryzom, not identical) skill builds.
It just doesn't happen in my experience. The only time you really see a lot of similarity is with dual wielding, because only two dual wields are permitted -- sword/dagger or dagger/dagger. So everyone does one of those two. And since dual wielding looks cool, a lot of people dual wield.
But if you're talking about anything else, I see tons of axes, swords, spears, pikes, and so forth. See, different weapons do better against different beasties. So a lot of experienced players will carry for instance, a sword and a spear. Spears do puncture damage and work best against kitins (giant insects). Swords do slashing damage, which kitins resist, but work better against other types of critters. If you see kitins up ahead, you switch to your spear. (This presupposes you have sufficient skill with the spear, which you may or may not.)
Also, different people have different tastes when it comes to skill stanzas. I happen to like the "conditionals" and I use them a lot. My character has lots of "attack after parry" and "attack after critical" moves that I have custom built. As a result, she doesn't spend all that much stamina in combat, but she has to default attack more while waiting for a conditional to pop. Over VERY short time periods, this lowers her DPS. However, she also can fight non-stop for a LOT longer than someone burning stamina, so whereas the stamina-burning character has to stop and rest every couple of battles (talking soloing here, just for ease of comparison), Sandaara can go two or three times longer. Over the course of an hour, her kill rate is probably far higher than the person who burns tons of stamina. Over short periods, it's far lower. Which is better? Well, that depends on how long you're going to be playing and what you intend to do. And in fact, Sandaara actually has several "stamina burning" skills, one "hit point burning" skill, and then the "after critica/parry/etc" skills. I use the appropriate ones based on my needs at the time.
Things are also different teamed than solo. If you are teamed with someone who can heal stamina, for instance, you can make your skills way more powerful and burn off more stamina, and the healer can just heal it. That same skill, solo, would be unusable.
In other words, no, there is not "one skill" or "one weapon" or "one suit of armor" that's going to do ya in every situation in Ryzom. Almost any combo someone could claim was "uber" in one situation, I can show how it is decidedly inferior in another, equally common, situation.
The big exception to all this is people like me who don't care what the best way to do something is...and just build their toon haphazardly...haha.
You actually see this attitude a lot in Ryzom, including with me. I see a LOT of people dual wielding. It isn't any better than any other weapon selection but it looks damn cool. And people like the game's they're playing to look cool.
The main exception to this, IMO, is PVP. As in most games, there are certain "trick builds" in PVP that can be hard to beat except with the "counter trick." I don't PVP much though, so other than the theoretical existence of such trick builds, I can't speak to them. However, PVPers seem to be in the vast minority in Ryzom, in my experience.
Originally posted by Velric Originally posted by Larsa Originally posted by Velric Although I absolutely love the idea of player made content and what Ryzom Ring is going to let people do, but I have one gigantic concern about the entire idea. Why should I have to create content for a game I have already bought and continue to pay a fee for monthly? ...
Well, for starters nobody forces you to create content, you can just play as you like and use the content that others are producing. Furthermore, the Ryzom Ring is a free expansion thus you can try it without having to shell out money for it.
And I'm quite sure that there will be plenty of content once the Ring is released because many people like to do these sort of things. It's a role-players wet dream.
I understand that you do not have create content if you do not want to, but it seems to be a way for the developers to not have to work on any new content as they can have other people PAY them to make content.
Its not. They still have new areas and whatnot comming down the pipe, and the devlopers themselves can also use this new tool (thiers would be a more advanced version) to make even more content faster.
So, no, they have not and will not stop making content.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Apparently then I am the only person that sees an issue with creating game content for a game that I have to pay a monthly subscription in order to play.
As I said, were they to give reduced monthly fees to active contributors then I would be gung ho for the idea. While I like the idea and I am sure it is going to help increase the population of the game quite a bit, I still find the concept shady.
After all, I don't pay someone to install windows for me just so I can help them do it.
Originally posted by Velric Apparently then I am the only person that sees an issue with creating game content for a game that I have to pay a monthly subscription in order to play.
As I said, were they to give reduced monthly fees to active contributors then I would be gung ho for the idea. While I like the idea and I am sure it is going to help increase the population of the game quite a bit, I still find the concept shady.
After all, I don't pay someone to install windows for me just so I can help them do it.
All i can really say is .. WOW.
You must never have RP'd, PnPRPG, acted or anything imaginative ever.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Comments
Yes yes, non-class based MMOs do suck...everyone ends up min-maxing to the exact same build.
Yes yes, non-class based MMOs do suck...everyone ends up min-maxing to the exact same build.
As everyone clearly does in EVE and SoR (that's sarcasm, for the uninitiated)--yes, yes, if you're going to complain about skill-based systems, do at least learn something about them first.
Apply lemon juice and candle flame here to reveal secret message.
Yes yes, non-class based MMOs do suck...everyone ends up min-maxing to the exact same build.
Even in classed based games everyone gravitates toward the most powerful class and build, so what's the difference?
I sleep with a pillow under my gun.
I know enough be sure that what I said in my previous post happens more often than not in "skill-based" systems. It's obviously happening to some extent in SoR (not everyone is a min-maxer of course, so not everyone ends up the same, but the majority of those who consider themselves "good" players do).
EvE isn't a "skill-based" system at heart, it's a gear-based one (where you need skill qualifications to use your gear) with economy-centric gameplay, so its a different kettle of fish from Ryzom, and other "skill-based" PvE/grind/MMO games.
"I know enough be sure that what I said in my previous post happens more often than not in "skill-based" systems."
My issue is I fail to really see your point.
In Dark Age of Camelot they call certain classes "flavor of the month" for a reason... its the same exact thing. Just like people that play various realms/servers based on who has the most relic bonuses at the time. Rather than just pick a server/realm/class and playing it no matter what.
This isn't something that is unique to skill based systems... which is why I don't see the point you are trying to make in regards to your min/max statements.
There were "fotm" skill sets in UO depending on the point in time after release.
As a recent example on the DAoC classic servers you almost never saw hunters. Patch goes in to give them a boost and there are hunters all over.
While various (mostly caster) classes are always high in numbers.
Its not like you see armies of rejuv clerics running around... because everyone and their grandmother wants to play the most uber dps class.
Anyway sorry for the ramble add on... I just don't see where you can say skill based systems are unique in people trying to play the most uber setup they can find.
Now, were they lower the monthly fee, or even eliminate it, for regular solid content submission I would consider it, but then I would begin to wonder why they didn't just hire me for a job so I could get paid for real.
Well, the point is, I'm not talking about "flavour of the month" builds or classes. I'm saying that in a lot of "skill-based" systems there is ONE "best" build to do a certain thing. (Because there are a number of different "things" that need to be done - in any good MMO - there'll be a few "best builds". eg. the best leveling build, the best PvP build, the best group build)
Taking this purely hypothetically. If a skill-based sytem allows me to become fully proficient in: mezzing, and using ranged high damage skills, then WHY would I do anything else? Why risk getting close to a mob when I can mez him and not allow him freedom to do anything? Why would I take an attack that is less damage than an equally skill-point-valued skill-path. What makes skill-based systems even worse is, that not only do you generally have enough points to do this type of thing (at least when you get enough skill-points, however they are accumulated) but you also may have enough "skill-points" left over to increase your Hit Points/Mana & Armor-class/Armor-level.
The reason that I'm talking hypothetically is because nearly EVERY skill-based system has some sort of "class" limitations built into it (ie. if you pick one thing it limits your ability to skillup in another...thus becoming a defacto "class" system anyway). Because if they didn't do this you'd get the abuse that results when EVERYBODY can become a heavily armored, massively hit-pointed, ranged nuker, who can also mezz (and sometimes even use a melee weapon with proficiency too).
(The fact that patches and skill alterations can change this "uber-build" doesn't negate the problem, it just sets it back a few weeks until everyone can match the new "uber-build" or, if you aren't able to change skills, end up with a gimped build and start complaining on the game forums
)
Anyway, this is a bit off-topic (though Ryzom has the problem we're discussing) so I'll sumarize my point and best leave it at that. I'm not trying to say skill-based systems are unique in having this problem, but they certainly lend themselves to it far more. The main reason being that in a class based system, NO ONE CLASS can do everything, therefore you negate the fact that everyone will be the same class.
Simple.
Um, have you played ryzom? Cuse then you would know that
what you are describing would be very hard to do, as its not just a skill based
system. You also create your own actions by combining others skill into an
action and for each + you add, you have to balance this with a - (like HP or
more SAP drain to caster)...
The chances of to people having the same action created in the same way is low.
One or the other will have an advantage or not.
Diversity marches on.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I have played Ryzom and the skill creation/combination system is quite inventive and interesting. Leaving out the slight variations in the way skills are created though, it's still FAR better to have some skills than others, thus the coments of previous posters in this thread saying that everyone is a mage (I haven't played Ryzom for a long time though, so I can neither confirm or deny the truth of that comment.
As I was describing in general terms in my previous post (no matter how the skills are created) there's still NO REASON in a skill-based game to NOT give your character the highest dps skills and the greatest protection (HP/Armor/Defensive Spells) that you can get. So if you can still do that in Ryzom, why wouldn't you...and if everyone does that, then everyone will have similar (though in Ryzom, not identical) skill builds.
The big exception to all this is people like me who don't care what the best way to do something is...and just build their toon haphazardly...haha.
My solution would be 3 fold
1- To make skills situational. You have to make it so that each skill has a need in a system. EX: So maybe a fireball sucks against a stone golem but kicks the hell outta wood golem.
2- Let a person be able to learn every skill, but have skills become more effective with use and degrade when they are not used. EX1: You always use lunge, so since you use lunge all the time you get 100% effectiveness outta it. EX2: You learned Windmill kick long ago but never used it. Your weapon was just disarmed and you used windmill kick, since you never used it you have 25% effectiveness with it.
BTW- I would also create certain plateaus that once you hit a level of effectiveness you can never fall below a certian point. EX: When you hit 50%, you could never drop below 35%, when you hit 75% you could never drop below 50%, when you hit 100% you could never drop below 75%.
3- I would create a great variaty of skills/stances that would basically target the weakness of other stances/skills. EX1: Sung Tzu's Dragon Stance would be very effective defense verse all lounge attacks. EX2: Lounge attacks would be a very effective offense verse a Sheild Parry stance.
Useful Variety, variety that is not linear, can stop the FOTM/Uber-Build syndrome.
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--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
Sorry, but could you guys take the "skill based games are bad, no, skill based games are good" discussion to a new thread perhaps?
After all this thread here should be about the Ryzom Ring and the impact of player-made content. Thanks.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
And I'm quite sure that there will be plenty of content once the Ring is released because many people like to do these sort of things. It's a role-players wet dream.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
But not all the content is good. You should have seen some shitier NWN contents. And that is probably why no persistant server ever accepted user generated content
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
I stopped playing the game because melee was underpowered. I was fantasizing about tankers in front, then the ranged fighters standing behind them and behind them the casting mages, but at the moment it's more like mages in front, healers backing up. Some tweaking could've fixed all of this, yet they choose for a scenario designer.
scientology
I stopped playing the game because melee was underpowered. I was fantasizing about tankers in front, then the ranged fighters standing behind them and behind them the casting mages, but at the moment it's more like mages in front, healers backing up. Some tweaking could've fixed all of this, yet they choose for a scenario designer.
Urm you obviously havn't been playing in a while TheWarc, in a 1 on 1 dual 250 melee beats 250 ele most of the time. Outpost battles its fairly balanced, everyone has their roles, range users can change the course of a battle, its like the secret weapon noone expects to be so good.
The skills arnt completely in balance, but every skill is useful in its own circumstances, melee and range are more specialist, but can be more powerful when used right.
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Kibs
Avatar by Ema
Playing: The Saga of Ryzom since march 2004
My solution would be 3 fold
1- To make skills situational. You have to make it so that each skill has a need in a system. EX: So maybe a fireball sucks against a stone golem but kicks the hell outta wood golem.
2- Let a person be able to learn every skill, but have skills become more effective with use and degrade when they are not used. EX1: You always use lunge, so since you use lunge all the time you get 100% effectiveness outta it. EX2: You learned Windmill kick long ago but never used it. Your weapon was just disarmed and you used windmill kick, since you never used it you have 25% effectiveness with it.
BTW- I would also create certain plateaus that once you hit a level of effectiveness you can never fall below a certian point. EX: When you hit 50%, you could never drop below 35%, when you hit 75% you could never drop below 50%, when you hit 100% you could never drop below 75%.
3- I would create a great variaty of skills/stances that would basically target the weakness of other stances/skills. EX1: Sung Tzu's Dragon Stance would be very effective defense verse all lounge attacks. EX2: Lounge attacks would be a very effective offense verse a Sheild Parry stance.
Useful Variety, variety that is not linear, can stop the FOTM/Uber-Build syndrome.
Problem
is, Ryzom dosnt suffer from what your trying to fix.
The people making it seem as those ryzom is just another "Skill based
game" are completely wrong.
I feel they should play the game and see for themselves. There are just to many
variations to account for.
Most skills are situational, most combinations of abilities applied
to actions are situational, and based on weapon, and things like your appoints
last move, some can, if you make them, only be available if they block or dodge
skills, and don’t forget those actions are also custom.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
So how about that ryzom ring eh? *wink *wink *nod *nod say no more
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
And I'm quite sure that there will be plenty of content once the Ring is released because many people like to do these sort of things. It's a role-players wet dream.
I understand that you do not have create content if you do not want to, but it seems to be a way for the developers to not have to work on any new content as they can have other people PAY them to make content.
However I see tons of people out there in the PVE game using weapons. In fact my guild, the Order of the Dragonblades, although we do have people who specialize in all skills, emphasizes melee combat (and specifically swords, daggers, etc -- i.e., blades).
There are plenty of melee fighters out there. Ranged fighters, yes, that needs work. But to say that Ryzom's population is 100% mage is just incorrect.
C
That is also known as a Win/Win situation
C
And I'm quite sure that there will be plenty of content once the Ring is released because many people like to do these sort of things. It's a role-players wet dream.
I understand that you do not have create content if you do not want to, but it seems to be a way for the developers to not have to work on any new content as they can have other people PAY them to make content.
Its not. They still have new areas and whatnot comming down the pipe, and the devlopers themselves can also use this new tool (thiers would be a more advanced version) to make even more content faster.
So, no, they have not and will not stop making content.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
As I said, were they to give reduced monthly fees to active contributors then I would be gung ho for the idea. While I like the idea and I am sure it is going to help increase the population of the game quite a bit, I still find the concept shady.
After all, I don't pay someone to install windows for me just so I can help them do it.
All i can really say is .. WOW.
You must never have RP'd, PnPRPG, acted or anything imaginative ever.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me