and no, the raid gear wont be 3x better than everything els, don't believe me? read this quote from brad....
No, I think my posts were consistent, although perhaps not as clear as they could have been. Some of the best items will only be obtainabile via raiding, other best items through grouping, and others through special casual areas, and others through the other spheres (harvesting/crafting and diplomacy).
Let me try to come up with a quick hypothetical example -- it's simplistic, but perhaps will make more sense: 1. The best all around helmet (say non-situational -- it has the best AC, or the best +STR attribute) for a warrior may come from a high level group zone 2. The best fire resistant vambraces may come from a raid zone 3. The best light armor boots may come from a challenging encounter that is made for casual/solo size groups (1-3). 4. The best AC armor (call it the Red Dragonscale Breastplate) may come from dragon scales collected in a difficult group dungeon, but then also require a high level harvester to actually collect the the scales in the depths of a the dragon's lair, and then a high level crafter to be able to use it and other components to actually create the Red Dragonscale Breastplate 5. The best +Charisma Cloak (call it the Royal Red Sparrow Robe) that enables you access to the throne room in New Targonar may come from a series of challenging diplomatic quests requiring high skills, items, and strategy used by one or more players playing in the Diplomacy sphere. Were a person to absolutely insist on obtaining all 5 of these hypothetical items above, he would have to either a. engage in all 5 activities to some significant extent, as well as work with others in most of the examples or b. buy/trade for them, assuming they are items that are tradable. http://www.silkyvenom.com/?page=devtracker&pagenumber=5&devid=4
After 1 expansion release, they will add new raid encounters and they will also make sure that everyone who raid in the past is still way ahead of these peoples who doesn't, even in the new expansion. Thereby the distance between raiders and non-raiders will be exponential, with every new expansion. Best groupers deserve to be groupers, only non-achievers can argue that!
I find it funny at how soooo many peoples enjoy bashing me, telling me nasty stuff. Suit yourself, enjoy your unfair edges in a game that grant them!
BioWare is coming to town! I am happy and looking forward to that awesome gaming experience, the MMO who will change the MMORPG world forever. Mucho to BioWare!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by vendris I mostly solo'd a Magician in Everquest to 50th level. In all honesty, I think the only reason I tortured myself doing it is so many people told me I wouldn't be able to. I sure showed them! Only took me a couple of years or so
And anyone who group a little was level 50 way before you, much stronger than you. In fact, you always where some ghetto player as long as you limit yourself to solo. Best soloers deserve to be soloers, only non-achievers can argue that! Now compare yourself to peoples who raid on top of that, and you where sooo backward, I hope you enjoy the secondary positions, roles, powers and importance.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye After 1 expansion release, they will add new raid encounters and they will also make sure that everyone who raid in the past is still way ahead of these peoples who doesn't, even in the new expansion. Thereby the distance between raiders and non-raiders will be exponential, with every new expansion. Best groupers deserve to be groupers, only non-achievers can argue that! I find it funny at how soooo many peoples enjoy bashing me, telling me nasty stuff. Suit yourself, enjoy your unfair edges in a game that grant them!BioWare is coming to town! I am happy and looking forward to that awesome gaming experience, the MMO who will change the MMORPG world forever. Mucho to BioWare!
since you are able to foresee the future, mind telling me who is going to win the super bowl this year? this post isn't meant as a flame, I'm sorry if it comes off that way.
sure i have been reading your posts for quite some time now, and i know you refuse to play any game that has raiding, in fact you refuse to play any game that doesn't meets your standards.
but i am confused, you are a bioware fanboy and think no matter what game they develop its going to be the game for you. but tell me this, what are you going to do if that game has raiding? what are you going to do if it is a game that does not meet your ridiculous standards?
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by angerr
and no, the raid gear wont be 3x better than everything els, don't believe me? read this quote from brad....
No, I think my posts were consistent, although perhaps not as clear as they could have been. Some of the best items will only be obtainabile via raiding, other best items through grouping, and others through special casual areas, and others through the other spheres (harvesting/crafting and diplomacy).
Let me try to come up with a quick hypothetical example -- it's simplistic, but perhaps will make more sense: 1. The best all around helmet (say non-situational -- it has the best AC, or the best +STR attribute) for a warrior may come from a high level group zone 2. The best fire resistant vambraces may come from a raid zone 3. The best light armor boots may come from a challenging encounter that is made for casual/solo size groups (1-3). 4. The best AC armor (call it the Red Dragonscale Breastplate) may come from dragon scales collected in a difficult group dungeon, but then also require a high level harvester to actually collect the the scales in the depths of a the dragon's lair, and then a high level crafter to be able to use it and other components to actually create the Red Dragonscale Breastplate 5. The best +Charisma Cloak (call it the Royal Red Sparrow Robe) that enables you access to the throne room in New Targonar may come from a series of challenging diplomatic quests requiring high skills, items, and strategy used by one or more players playing in the Diplomacy sphere. Were a person to absolutely insist on obtaining all 5 of these hypothetical items above, he would have to either a. engage in all 5 activities to some significant extent, as well as work with others in most of the examples or b. buy/trade for them, assuming they are items that are tradable. http://www.silkyvenom.com/?page=devtracker&pagenumber=5&devid=4
After 1 expansion release, they will add new raid encounters and they will also make sure that everyone who raid in the past is still way ahead of these peoples who doesn't, even in the new expansion. Thereby the distance between raiders and non-raiders will be exponential, with every new expansion. Best groupers deserve to be groupers, only non-achievers can argue that!
I find it funny at how soooo many peoples enjoy bashing me, telling me nasty stuff. Suit yourself, enjoy your unfair edges in a game that grant them!
BioWare is coming to town! I am happy and looking forward to that awesome gaming experience, the MMO who will change the MMORPG world forever. Mucho to BioWare!
You need to read Brad's essay he wrote on "MUDflation" he and Sigil are very aware of that problem and point it out as the worst problem in MMOs today, which is why you hear him talking about adding content that doesn't trivialize already available content...and not adding items that are inappropriate for a characters level, or adding items that will dramatically increase a characters power without also increasing the level cap.
I hate to inform you, but nothing you do in an MMO makes you more "powerful". They are games. I don't have to find achievement in virtual worlds that I can lord over other people to make me feel good about myself, because I have achieved some level of success in the real, actual world. Games are for fun, not to make myself feel "uber".
Your post is a fine example of the wonderful attitude of the type of person Brad is trying to appeal to with his new MMO, and a fine example of why I'll never be playing it. I'd rather play CoV for an hour now and then and have people compliment me on the costume I designed than waste my time in this boring timesink of a "game" that will be filled with people who choose "achievements" in -video games-, of all things, to feel elitest about.
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by vendris I mostly solo'd a Magician in Everquest to 50th level. In all honesty, I think the only reason I tortured myself doing it is so many people told me I wouldn't be able to. I sure showed them! Only took me a couple of years or so
And anyone who group a little was level 50 way before you, much stronger than you. In fact, you always where some ghetto player as long as you limit yourself to solo. Best soloers deserve to be soloers, only non-achievers can argue that! Now compare yourself to peoples who raid on top of that, and you where sooo backward, I hope you enjoy the secondary positions, roles, powers and importance.
Originally posted by vendris I hate to inform you, but nothing you do in an MMO makes you more "powerful". They are games. I don't have to find achievement in virtual worlds that I can lord over other people to make me feel good about myself, because I have achieved some level of success in the real, actual world. Games are for fun, not to make myself feel "uber".
Your post is a fine example of the wonderful attitude of the type of person Brad is trying to appeal to with his new MMO, and a fine example of why I'll never be playing it. I'd rather play CoV for an hour now and then and have people compliment me on the costume I designed than waste my time in this boring timesink of a "game" that will be filled with people who choose "achievements" in -video games-, of all things, to feel elitest about.
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by vendris I mostly solo'd a Magician in Everquest to 50th level. In all honesty, I think the only reason I tortured myself doing it is so many people told me I wouldn't be able to. I sure showed them! Only took me a couple of years or so
And anyone who group a little was level 50 way before you, much stronger than you. In fact, you always where some ghetto player as long as you limit yourself to solo. Best soloers deserve to be soloers, only non-achievers can argue that! Now compare yourself to peoples who raid on top of that, and you where sooo backward, I hope you enjoy the secondary positions, roles, powers and importance.
Truthfully, I don't think you understand the MMO culture. If gaming is just a pastime, just a hobby...an hour a night ordeal, that's fine. But then to judge people for becoming more involved and "lording" it over us with your "Real life success" is far more elitest than much of what has been posted on these forums in a while.
If you're so successful in life and unconnected to this MMO culture, I seriously doubt you would be trolling these forums right now....posting on a forum for a game you have repeatedly said you will have nothing to do with because it isn't your play style.
I mean, who are you trying to convince? Us or you?
I'm not judging people for becoming heavily involved in an MMO. I'm judging one particular type of MMO player. I have very good friends who are "hardcore" raiders in WoW and FFXI. They raid every single night of the week. They're also great, friendly people, whom I've played more than one game with.
I posted a halfway joking post, about soloing to 50th in Everquest 1 because I was silly and stubborn and people told me I couldn't do it. In response, I get some response droning on and on about how I was a "non achiever" and I would never be as "powerful" as the other players and I hoped I enjoyed my role as a second class, unimportant person? What am I supposed to think about a person who would cop that sort of attitude with someone because he didn't take a *game* as seriously as he did?
MMOs are a really fun advance in gaming, I love them. Unfortunately, MMO "culture" for the most part sucks, especially in the uber loot dependent raid based games. Vanguard is being designed from the ground up to allow a certain style of 16 hour a day playing uber raider to control access to game content and bully around everyone else on the server because that's how they get their kicks, and this attitude is prevelant on any forum that deals with Vanguard.
I really wouldn't even have a problem with that, if Sigil wasn't running around claiming that the game wasn't about that and it'll be great fun for non hardcore players, which anyone with any experience playing MMOs can easily see isn't true.
Originally posted by Vengeful Originally posted by vendris I hate to inform you, but nothing you do in an MMO makes you more "powerful". They are games. I don't have to find achievement in virtual worlds that I can lord over other people to make me feel good about myself, because I have achieved some level of success in the real, actual world. Games are for fun, not to make myself feel "uber".
Your post is a fine example of the wonderful attitude of the type of person Brad is trying to appeal to with his new MMO, and a fine example of why I'll never be playing it. I'd rather play CoV for an hour now and then and have people compliment me on the costume I designed than waste my time in this boring timesink of a "game" that will be filled with people who choose "achievements" in -video games-, of all things, to feel elitest about.
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by vendris I mostly solo'd a Magician in Everquest to 50th level. In all honesty, I think the only reason I tortured myself doing it is so many people told me I wouldn't be able to. I sure showed them! Only took me a couple of years or so
And anyone who group a little was level 50 way before you, much stronger than you. In fact, you always where some ghetto player as long as you limit yourself to solo. Best soloers deserve to be soloers, only non-achievers can argue that! Now compare yourself to peoples who raid on top of that, and you where sooo backward, I hope you enjoy the secondary positions, roles, powers and importance.
Truthfully, I don't think you understand the MMO culture. If gaming is just a pastime, just a hobby...an hour a night ordeal, that's fine. But then to judge people for becoming more involved and "lording" it over us with your "Real life success" is far more elitest than much of what has been posted on these forums in a while.
If you're so successful in life and unconnected to this MMO culture, I seriously doubt you would be trolling these forums right now....posting on a forum for a game you have repeatedly said you will have nothing to do with because it isn't your play style.
I mean, who are you trying to convince? Us or you?
Originally posted by vendris Vanguard is being designed from the ground up to allow a certain style of 16 hour a day playing uber raider to control access to game content and bully around everyone else on the server because that's how they get their kicks, and this attitude is prevelant on any forum that deals with Vanguard.
I really wouldn't even have a problem with that, if Sigil wasn't running around claiming that the game wasn't about that and it'll be great fun for non hardcore players, which anyone with any experience playing MMOs can easily see isn't true.
OH MY GOD! Would you STOP it with that?!?
Proove it! Please....because I'll tell you right now that you can't. Everyone that has even browsed any information about this game knows that it is being built to allow accessibility to casual players. And the exageration of 16 hours is sorta well...an exageration.
Every....single...dev post talks more about Role Playing and small groups than Raiding. And there are many many dev posts that talk about wanting someone to have a feeling of accomplishment for an hour or two worth of gaming.
Just because the XP curve is slow doesn't mean you have to play more every night. It just means that you'll still be advancing in 4 months. Big whoop. So will most everyone else. Just because the vast majority of the content is for groups doesn't mean you have to group, now does it?
You're making these claims about how the game is, and you obviously have never played it. I don't go over to the AoC forums and talk and talk and talk about how I think the game mechanics are going to suck and about how I think Soloing to lvl 20 is the worst idea ever. And if I were intersted in talking about AoC (which I'm not) I would at least do a little research about it instead of doing some backward thinking and assuming that AoC is trying to and going to be exactly like every other Action MMO out there only with different graphics.
Let a game stand alone by itself, if the features it advertises doesn't interest you then leave it be. Play the game when it is released and then... (and only then) make your judgements about how the gameplay is, what they borrowed from which sources, and how it ranks on your own personal suck-o-meter.
If you've played MMOs before and actually payed attention, and read the Vanguard FAQ, you have all of the information you need to realize that what I've said is true. Well, that's not entirely correct. Either the game is being designed from the ground up for uber raider egos, or Brad is so ignorant of the fundamentals of human nature and MMO design that he is accidently creating a game that will heavily favor raiding guilds at everyone else's expense. Since I do not think Brad is an idiot, I assume that the design is deliberate. This has nothing to do with how long it takes to grind up to max level, and it has nothing to do with death penalties, or even travel time. It has to do with things like:
No instanced content: Having non instanced dungeons means the dungeons will be camped, period. Just like in Everquest, and Final Fantasy XI, and world bosses in WoW, spawns will be camped by large guilds who have the man power to control those spawns, and those guilds will dictate who is "allowed" to have access to that content. This has happened in -every- MMO that has non instanced, important (loot wise) content, bar none.
Item Centric: The Vanguard FAQ flat out states "Vanguard will be a very item acquisition-centric game... questing, crafting, and adventuring to obtain items that enhance your character will be key". Combine "item centric" with "no instances" and you get exactly what I outlined in my previous paragraph.
Highly diversified roles and complex crafting requirement To create the high end items in Vanguard, you must have a large number of players, all highly specialized in different tasks. High end crafters who have mastered the high end crafting recipes. High end harvesters to harvest the raw materials, which Brad has stated must be harvested in some cases by full raid groups for the rare materials needed to create high end items. Combine this with the fact that there is no global trading system, and the result is very easy to forsee: only highly organized raid guilds with dedicated, specialized players will be able to create high end gear.
So, only the high end raid groups will be able to marshal the forces necessary to gather the rare materials needed for highly skilled crafters to construct the good items in the game, and character progression is highly item dependent. This leads directly to the logical conclusion that only high end raid guilds will be able to generate enough revenue to partake in another facet of the game: guild constructed housing.
Once again, the faq lists all sorts of huge advantages the guilds that can generate the resources necessary to construct villages, including decreased travel time and increased storage.
You really can't see where this is going yet? High end raid guilds will build villages very close to the non instanced dungeons that must be raided in order to get the materials to construct quality items, and because the guilds will be living right next to these dungeons, they will control who gets access to them, period.
Anyone who believes casual, group based players (as opposed to raiders) have any place in the world Sigil is creating (other than serving as peasants and consumers for the raiding guilds) is seriously kidding themselves, and if Brad honestly thinks he is making a game that will be fun for raiders and group players alike, he is deluded.
Originally posted by Vengeful Originally posted by vendris Vanguard is being designed from the ground up to allow a certain style of 16 hour a day playing uber raider to control access to game content and bully around everyone else on the server because that's how they get their kicks, and this attitude is prevelant on any forum that deals with Vanguard.
I really wouldn't even have a problem with that, if Sigil wasn't running around claiming that the game wasn't about that and it'll be great fun for non hardcore players, which anyone with any experience playing MMOs can easily see isn't true.
OH MY GOD! Would you STOP it with that?!?
Proove it! Please....because I'll tell you right now that you can't. Everyone that has even browsed any information about this game knows that it is being built to allow accessibility to casual players. And the exageration of 16 hours is sorta well...an exageration.
Every....single...dev post talks more about Role Playing and small groups than Raiding. And there are many many dev posts that talk about wanting someone to have a feeling of accomplishment for an hour or two worth of gaming.
Just because the XP curve is slow doesn't mean you have to play more every night. It just means that you'll still be advancing in 4 months. Big whoop. So will most everyone else. Just because the vast majority of the content is for groups doesn't mean you have to group, now does it?
You're making these claims about how the game is, and you obviously have never played it. I don't go over to the AoC forums and talk and talk and talk about how I think the game mechanics are going to suck and about how I think Soloing to lvl 20 is the worst idea ever. And if I were intersted in talking about AoC (which I'm not) I would at least do a little research about it instead of doing some backward thinking and assuming that AoC is trying to and going to be exactly like every other Action MMO out there only with different graphics.
Let a game stand alone by itself, if the features it advertises doesn't interest you then leave it be. Play the game when it is released and then... (and only then) make your judgements about how the gameplay is, what they borrowed from which sources, and how it ranks on your own personal suck-o-meter.
Originally posted by vendris If you've played MMOs before and actually payed attention, and read the Vanguard FAQ, you have all of the information you need to realize that what I've said is true. Well, that's not entirely correct. Either the game is being designed from the ground up for uber raider egos, or Brad is so ignorant of the fundamentals of human nature and MMO design that he is accidently creating a game that will heavily favor raiding guilds at everyone else's expense. Since I do not think Brad is an idiot, I assume that the design is deliberate. This has nothing to do with how long it takes to grind up to max level, and it has nothing to do with death penalties, or even travel time. It has to do with things like:
No instanced content: Having non instanced dungeons means the dungeons will be camped, period. Just like in Everquest, and Final Fantasy XI, and world bosses in WoW, spawns will be camped by large guilds who have the man power to control those spawns, and those guilds will dictate who is "allowed" to have access to that content. This has happened in -every- MMO that has non instanced, important (loot wise) content, bar none.
Item Centric: The Vanguard FAQ flat out states "Vanguard will be a very item acquisition-centric game... questing, crafting, and adventuring to obtain items that enhance your character will be key". Combine "item centric" with "no instances" and you get exactly what I outlined in my previous paragraph.
Highly diversified roles and complex crafting requirement To create the high end items in Vanguard, you must have a large number of players, all highly specialized in different tasks. High end crafters who have mastered the high end crafting recipes. High end harvesters to harvest the raw materials, which Brad has stated must be harvested in some cases by full raid groups for the rare materials needed to create high end items. Combine this with the fact that there is no global trading system, and the result is very easy to forsee: only highly organized raid guilds with dedicated, specialized players will be able to create high end gear.
So, only the high end raid groups will be able to marshal the forces necessary to gather the rare materials needed for highly skilled crafters to construct the good items in the game, and character progression is highly item dependent. This leads directly to the logical conclusion that only high end raid guilds will be able to generate enough revenue to partake in another facet of the game: guild constructed housing.
Once again, the faq lists all sorts of huge advantages the guilds that can generate the resources necessary to construct villages, including decreased travel time and increased storage.
You really can't see where this is going yet? High end raid guilds will build villages very close to the non instanced dungeons that must be raided in order to get the materials to construct quality items, and because the guilds will be living right next to these dungeons, they will control who gets access to them, period.
Anyone who believes casual, group based players (as opposed to raiders) have any place in the world Sigil is creating (other than serving as peasants and consumers for the raiding guilds) is seriously kidding themselves, and if Brad honestly thinks he is making a game that will be fun for raiders and group players alike, he is deluded.
Simply by the fact that in your discussion of "camping" you didn't mention the "Advanced Enounter System"... I don't really think you're making an accurate judgement of the game's mechanics
By recognizing that Brad and Co. are fully aware of this "issue" that you bring up about crafing and the effects that guilds have on an item centric game...and then noticing that they lable this as a problem...you SHOULD understand that there is, or they are interested in correcting that problem, and that they have or will attempt to solve it. None of us here can predict how the game's economy will work itself out. Sure, there might be materials that require a raid to harvest...but they might be for items that are only really useful for raiders. And given what they have said about the loot distribution when compared to the activity required to get it...that makes alot of sense.
I see what you are getting at....but I also think I've read more about what they say the game will offer than you have...and given what I know, and how they recognize these same problems you bring up and their plans to balance those makes your arguments seem invalid.
Brad's latest catch phrase is "Don't throw the baby out with the bath" ...essentially...don't throw away something that you want to keep just because you want to get rid of the bad that is currently associated with it. If people camping is a problem in a seamless world....don't try to take the people out of the game...try to kill camping instead.
Originally posted by Vengeful Originally posted by vendris If you've played MMOs before and actually payed attention, and read the Vanguard FAQ, you have all of the information you need to realize that what I've said is true. Well, that's not entirely correct. Either the game is being designed from the ground up for uber raider egos, or Brad is so ignorant of the fundamentals of human nature and MMO design that he is accidently creating a game that will heavily favor raiding guilds at everyone else's expense. Since I do not think Brad is an idiot, I assume that the design is deliberate. This has nothing to do with how long it takes to grind up to max level, and it has nothing to do with death penalties, or even travel time. It has to do with things like:
No instanced content: Having non instanced dungeons means the dungeons will be camped, period. Just like in Everquest, and Final Fantasy XI, and world bosses in WoW, spawns will be camped by large guilds who have the man power to control those spawns, and those guilds will dictate who is "allowed" to have access to that content. This has happened in -every- MMO that has non instanced, important (loot wise) content, bar none.
Item Centric: The Vanguard FAQ flat out states "Vanguard will be a very item acquisition-centric game... questing, crafting, and adventuring to obtain items that enhance your character will be key". Combine "item centric" with "no instances" and you get exactly what I outlined in my previous paragraph.
Highly diversified roles and complex crafting requirement To create the high end items in Vanguard, you must have a large number of players, all highly specialized in different tasks. High end crafters who have mastered the high end crafting recipes. High end harvesters to harvest the raw materials, which Brad has stated must be harvested in some cases by full raid groups for the rare materials needed to create high end items. Combine this with the fact that there is no global trading system, and the result is very easy to forsee: only highly organized raid guilds with dedicated, specialized players will be able to create high end gear.
So, only the high end raid groups will be able to marshal the forces necessary to gather the rare materials needed for highly skilled crafters to construct the good items in the game, and character progression is highly item dependent. This leads directly to the logical conclusion that only high end raid guilds will be able to generate enough revenue to partake in another facet of the game: guild constructed housing.
Once again, the faq lists all sorts of huge advantages the guilds that can generate the resources necessary to construct villages, including decreased travel time and increased storage.
You really can't see where this is going yet? High end raid guilds will build villages very close to the non instanced dungeons that must be raided in order to get the materials to construct quality items, and because the guilds will be living right next to these dungeons, they will control who gets access to them, period.
Anyone who believes casual, group based players (as opposed to raiders) have any place in the world Sigil is creating (other than serving as peasants and consumers for the raiding guilds) is seriously kidding themselves, and if Brad honestly thinks he is making a game that will be fun for raiders and group players alike, he is deluded.
Simply by the fact that in your discussion of "camping" you didn't mention the "Advanced Enounter System"... I don't really think you're making an accurate judgement of the game's mechanics
By recognizing that Brad and Co. are fully aware of this "issue" that you bring up about crafing and the effects that guilds have on an item centric game...and then noticing that they lable this as a problem...you SHOULD understand that there is, or they are interested in correcting that problem, and that they have or will attempt to solve it. None of us here can predict how the game's economy will work itself out. Sure, there might be materials that require a raid to harvest...but they might be for items that are only really useful for raiders. And given what they have said about the loot distribution when compared to the activity required to get it...that makes alot of sense.
I see what you are getting at....but I also think I've read more about what they say the game will offer than you have...and given what I know, and how they recognize these same problems you bring up and their plans to balance those makes your arguments seem invalid.
Brad's latest catch phrase is "Don't throw the baby out with the bath" ...essentially...don't throw away something that you want to keep just because you want to get rid of the bad that is currently associated with it. If people camping is a problem in a seamless world....don't try to take the people out of the game...try to kill camping instead.
Everything I've read about the advanced encounter system has stated that the triggers for the encounter routes will be very rare random drops. So, there will be some boss level encounters that are locked to a group that has a token. That doesn't change anything about harvesting materials from dungeons or the vast majority of the game content.
Only time will tell as far as any of this goes, of course. The game will come out, and it will be whatever it is, and some of our conjecture will be right and some of it will be wrong. Only one way to find out
Only time will tell as far as any of this goes, of course. The game will come out, and it will be whatever it is, and some of our conjecture will be right and some of it will be wrong. Only one way to find out
And that is usually my parting words for almost all of my posts on these forums. It just saddens me some times when people skim miss something or seem to have misconceptions about a game I want to play... =/ Cause, underneath my cool extererior, I just want everyone to have fun. ...that and I don't want to miss out on the chance of playing with someone cause they mis-read or didn't have access to information about a game.
Originally posted by grape This game will not be for soloists. It's written all over and twice. Be prepared for being in a guild and having to schedule yourself for this game.
1-2 hours getting a group together. hour or two adventuring cleric leaves
log off
yup, that's why this game will be very frustrating unless you can play 8 hours a day.
Comments
After 1 expansion release, they will add new raid encounters and they will also make sure that everyone who raid in the past is still way ahead of these peoples who doesn't, even in the new expansion. Thereby the distance between raiders and non-raiders will be exponential, with every new expansion. Best groupers deserve to be groupers, only non-achievers can argue that!
I find it funny at how soooo many peoples enjoy bashing me, telling me nasty stuff. Suit yourself, enjoy your unfair edges in a game that grant them!
BioWare is coming to town! I am happy and looking forward to that awesome gaming experience, the MMO who will change the MMORPG world forever. Mucho
to BioWare!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
since you are able to foresee the future, mind telling me who is going to win the super bowl this year?
this post isn't meant as a flame, I'm sorry if it comes off that way.
sure i have been reading your posts for quite some time now, and i know you refuse to play any game that has raiding, in fact you refuse to play any game that doesn't meets your standards.
but i am confused, you are a bioware fanboy and think no matter what game they develop its going to be the game for you. but tell me this, what are you going to do if that game has raiding? what are you going to do if it is a game that does not meet your ridiculous standards?
After 1 expansion release, they will add new raid encounters and they will also make sure that everyone who raid in the past is still way ahead of these peoples who doesn't, even in the new expansion. Thereby the distance between raiders and non-raiders will be exponential, with every new expansion. Best groupers deserve to be groupers, only non-achievers can argue that!
I find it funny at how soooo many peoples enjoy bashing me, telling me nasty stuff. Suit yourself, enjoy your unfair edges in a game that grant them!
BioWare is coming to town! I am happy and looking forward to that awesome gaming experience, the MMO who will change the MMORPG world forever. Mucho
to BioWare!
You need to read Brad's essay he wrote on "MUDflation" he and Sigil are very aware of that problem and point it out as the worst problem in MMOs today, which is why you hear him talking about adding content that doesn't trivialize already available content...and not adding items that are inappropriate for a characters level, or adding items that will dramatically increase a characters power without also increasing the level cap.
Linkage: http://www.bradmcquaid.com/MUDFlation.htm
I hate to inform you, but nothing you do in an MMO makes you more "powerful". They are games. I don't have to find achievement in virtual worlds that I can lord over other people to make me feel good about myself, because I have achieved some level of success in the real, actual world. Games are for fun, not to make myself feel "uber".
Your post is a fine example of the wonderful attitude of the type of person Brad is trying to appeal to with his new MMO, and a fine example of why I'll never be playing it. I'd rather play CoV for an hour now and then and have people compliment me on the costume I designed than waste my time in this boring timesink of a "game" that will be filled with people who choose "achievements" in -video games-, of all things, to feel elitest about. And anyone who group a little was level 50 way before you, much stronger than you. In fact, you always where some ghetto player as long as you limit yourself to solo. Best soloers deserve to be soloers, only non-achievers can argue that! Now compare yourself to peoples who raid on top of that, and you where sooo backward, I hope you enjoy the secondary positions, roles, powers and importance.
Truthfully, I don't think you understand the MMO culture. If gaming is just a pastime, just a hobby...an hour a night ordeal, that's fine. But then to judge people for becoming more involved and "lording" it over us with your "Real life success" is far more elitest than much of what has been posted on these forums in a while.
If you're so successful in life and unconnected to this MMO culture, I seriously doubt you would be trolling these forums right now....posting on a forum for a game you have repeatedly said you will have nothing to do with because it isn't your play style.
I mean, who are you trying to convince? Us or you?
I'm not judging people for becoming heavily involved in an MMO. I'm judging one particular type of MMO player. I have very good friends who are "hardcore" raiders in WoW and FFXI. They raid every single night of the week. They're also great, friendly people, whom I've played more than one game with.
I posted a halfway joking post, about soloing to 50th in Everquest 1 because I was silly and stubborn and people told me I couldn't do it. In response, I get some response droning on and on about how I was a "non achiever" and I would never be as "powerful" as the other players and I hoped I enjoyed my role as a second class, unimportant person? What am I supposed to think about a person who would cop that sort of attitude with someone because he didn't take a *game* as seriously as he did?
MMOs are a really fun advance in gaming, I love them. Unfortunately, MMO "culture" for the most part sucks, especially in the uber loot dependent raid based games. Vanguard is being designed from the ground up to allow a certain style of 16 hour a day playing uber raider to control access to game content and bully around everyone else on the server because that's how they get their kicks, and this attitude is prevelant on any forum that deals with Vanguard.
I really wouldn't even have a problem with that, if Sigil wasn't running around claiming that the game wasn't about that and it'll be great fun for non hardcore players, which anyone with any experience playing MMOs can easily see isn't true. And anyone who group a little was level 50 way before you, much stronger than you. In fact, you always where some ghetto player as long as you limit yourself to solo. Best soloers deserve to be soloers, only non-achievers can argue that! Now compare yourself to peoples who raid on top of that, and you where sooo backward, I hope you enjoy the secondary positions, roles, powers and importance.
Truthfully, I don't think you understand the MMO culture. If gaming is just a pastime, just a hobby...an hour a night ordeal, that's fine. But then to judge people for becoming more involved and "lording" it over us with your "Real life success" is far more elitest than much of what has been posted on these forums in a while.
If you're so successful in life and unconnected to this MMO culture, I seriously doubt you would be trolling these forums right now....posting on a forum for a game you have repeatedly said you will have nothing to do with because it isn't your play style.
I mean, who are you trying to convince? Us or you?
OH MY GOD! Would you STOP it with that?!?
Proove it! Please....because I'll tell you right now that you can't. Everyone that has even browsed any information about this game knows that it is being built to allow accessibility to casual players. And the exageration of 16 hours is sorta well...an exageration.
Every....single...dev post talks more about Role Playing and small groups than Raiding. And there are many many dev posts that talk about wanting someone to have a feeling of accomplishment for an hour or two worth of gaming.
Just because the XP curve is slow doesn't mean you have to play more every night. It just means that you'll still be advancing in 4 months. Big whoop. So will most everyone else. Just because the vast majority of the content is for groups doesn't mean you have to group, now does it?
You're making these claims about how the game is, and you obviously have never played it. I don't go over to the AoC forums and talk and talk and talk about how I think the game mechanics are going to suck and about how I think Soloing to lvl 20 is the worst idea ever. And if I were intersted in talking about AoC (which I'm not) I would at least do a little research about it instead of doing some backward thinking and assuming that AoC is trying to and going to be exactly like every other Action MMO out there only with different graphics.
Let a game stand alone by itself, if the features it advertises doesn't interest you then leave it be. Play the game when it is released and then... (and only then) make your judgements about how the gameplay is, what they borrowed from which sources, and how it ranks on your own personal suck-o-meter.
If you've played MMOs before and actually payed attention, and read the Vanguard FAQ, you have all of the information you need to realize that what I've said is true. Well, that's not entirely correct. Either the game is being designed from the ground up for uber raider egos, or Brad is so ignorant of the fundamentals of human nature and MMO design that he is accidently creating a game that will heavily favor raiding guilds at everyone else's expense. Since I do not think Brad is an idiot, I assume that the design is deliberate. This has nothing to do with how long it takes to grind up to max level, and it has nothing to do with death penalties, or even travel time. It has to do with things like:
No instanced content: Having non instanced dungeons means the dungeons will be camped, period. Just like in Everquest, and Final Fantasy XI, and world bosses in WoW, spawns will be camped by large guilds who have the man power to control those spawns, and those guilds will dictate who is "allowed" to have access to that content. This has happened in -every- MMO that has non instanced, important (loot wise) content, bar none.
Item Centric: The Vanguard FAQ flat out states "Vanguard will be a very item acquisition-centric game...
questing, crafting, and adventuring to obtain items that enhance your
character will be key". Combine "item centric" with "no instances" and you get exactly what I outlined in my previous paragraph.
Highly diversified roles and complex crafting requirement To create the high end items in Vanguard, you must have a large number of players, all highly specialized in different tasks. High end crafters who have mastered the high end crafting recipes. High end harvesters to harvest the raw materials, which Brad has stated must be harvested in some cases by full raid groups for the rare materials needed to create high end items. Combine this with the fact that there is no global trading system, and the result is very easy to forsee: only highly organized raid guilds with dedicated, specialized players will be able to create high end gear.
So, only the high end raid groups will be able to marshal the forces necessary to gather the rare materials needed for highly skilled crafters to construct the good items in the game, and character progression is highly item dependent. This leads directly to the logical conclusion that only high end raid guilds will be able to generate enough revenue to partake in another facet of the game: guild constructed housing.
Once again, the faq lists all sorts of huge advantages the guilds that can generate the resources necessary to construct villages, including decreased travel time and increased storage.
You really can't see where this is going yet? High end raid guilds will build villages very close to the non instanced dungeons that must be raided in order to get the materials to construct quality items, and because the guilds will be living right next to these dungeons, they will control who gets access to them, period.
Anyone who believes casual, group based players (as opposed to raiders) have any place in the world Sigil is creating (other than serving as peasants and consumers for the raiding guilds) is seriously kidding themselves, and if Brad honestly thinks he is making a game that will be fun for raiders and group players alike, he is deluded.
OH MY GOD! Would you STOP it with that?!?
Proove it! Please....because I'll tell you right now that you can't. Everyone that has even browsed any information about this game knows that it is being built to allow accessibility to casual players. And the exageration of 16 hours is sorta well...an exageration.
Every....single...dev post talks more about Role Playing and small groups than Raiding. And there are many many dev posts that talk about wanting someone to have a feeling of accomplishment for an hour or two worth of gaming.
Just because the XP curve is slow doesn't mean you have to play more every night. It just means that you'll still be advancing in 4 months. Big whoop. So will most everyone else. Just because the vast majority of the content is for groups doesn't mean you have to group, now does it?
You're making these claims about how the game is, and you obviously have never played it. I don't go over to the AoC forums and talk and talk and talk about how I think the game mechanics are going to suck and about how I think Soloing to lvl 20 is the worst idea ever. And if I were intersted in talking about AoC (which I'm not) I would at least do a little research about it instead of doing some backward thinking and assuming that AoC is trying to and going to be exactly like every other Action MMO out there only with different graphics.
Let a game stand alone by itself, if the features it advertises doesn't interest you then leave it be. Play the game when it is released and then... (and only then) make your judgements about how the gameplay is, what they borrowed from which sources, and how it ranks on your own personal suck-o-meter.
1-2 hours getting a group together.
hour or two adventuring
cleric leaves
log off
Simply by the fact that in your discussion of "camping" you didn't mention the "Advanced Enounter System"... I don't really think you're making an accurate judgement of the game's mechanics
By recognizing that Brad and Co. are fully aware of this "issue" that you bring up about crafing and the effects that guilds have on an item centric game...and then noticing that they lable this as a problem...you SHOULD understand that there is, or they are interested in correcting that problem, and that they have or will attempt to solve it. None of us here can predict how the game's economy will work itself out. Sure, there might be materials that require a raid to harvest...but they might be for items that are only really useful for raiders. And given what they have said about the loot distribution when compared to the activity required to get it...that makes alot of sense.
I see what you are getting at....but I also think I've read more about what they say the game will offer than you have...and given what I know, and how they recognize these same problems you bring up and their plans to balance those makes your arguments seem invalid.
Brad's latest catch phrase is "Don't throw the baby out with the bath" ...essentially...don't throw away something that you want to keep just because you want to get rid of the bad that is currently associated with it. If people camping is a problem in a seamless world....don't try to take the people out of the game...try to kill camping instead.
Simply by the fact that in your discussion of "camping" you didn't mention the "Advanced Enounter System"... I don't really think you're making an accurate judgement of the game's mechanics
By recognizing that Brad and Co. are fully aware of this "issue" that you bring up about crafing and the effects that guilds have on an item centric game...and then noticing that they lable this as a problem...you SHOULD understand that there is, or they are interested in correcting that problem, and that they have or will attempt to solve it. None of us here can predict how the game's economy will work itself out. Sure, there might be materials that require a raid to harvest...but they might be for items that are only really useful for raiders. And given what they have said about the loot distribution when compared to the activity required to get it...that makes alot of sense.
I see what you are getting at....but I also think I've read more about what they say the game will offer than you have...and given what I know, and how they recognize these same problems you bring up and their plans to balance those makes your arguments seem invalid.
Brad's latest catch phrase is "Don't throw the baby out with the bath" ...essentially...don't throw away something that you want to keep just because you want to get rid of the bad that is currently associated with it. If people camping is a problem in a seamless world....don't try to take the people out of the game...try to kill camping instead.
Everything I've read about the advanced encounter system has stated that the triggers for the encounter routes will be very rare random drops. So, there will be some boss level encounters that are locked to a group that has a token. That doesn't change anything about harvesting materials from dungeons or the vast majority of the game content.
Only time will tell as far as any of this goes, of course. The game will come out, and it will be whatever it is, and some of our conjecture will be right and some of it will be wrong. Only one way to find out