If you look back earlier in this thread you will see I have linked to the Vivendi stock holders report and give you the exact page showing the current subscribers (2nd quarter) and their geographical breakdown.
I went back several pages, and I got nothin'. The 2005 report I saw listed no such geographical breakdown; it only reported total sales.
I would like to see that link, if you can find it. That's actually the sort of info I've been looking for before any of this fracas started.
It's already all been provided for you. All you have to do is take the time to read it.
(It is illegal for Blizzard to misrepresent these figures).
Only to the investors and government officials. You can tell a customer that "everyone" plays a game, so long as you do it in the context of advertisement.
Hell, Blizzard's own manual isn't truthful anymore, and hasn't been so entirely for almost a year now. But they don't have to reprint it; they break no laws by having a manual listing things as being or about to be available that no longer are. Like Hero classes, which were recently officially canned as an idea.
Originally posted by Pride7 I was speaking as if I were a publisher.
So, in fact, you are not a publisher.
Gee. I was just so sure you were. Imagine that.
I do work for a publisher but that isn't neither here nor there, although that is how I know about EDI and Retail Link which are standard practices that you obviously know nothing of.
Look, if you don't want to provide something to counter my arguments, just say so. I didn't expect you to whip out Blizzard's monthly sales for 2004 and 2005 out of nowhere to beat me about the head and shoulders with, just as I didn't expect you to concede that a rating is just something some guy in a magazine wrote based on his or her personal opinions of a game.
Again you try to cover up your short comings with worthless blabber. I have showed you factual data that proves North American subs were higher after the China launch, what have you shown? Your ignorance when it comes to retail reporting and how to read an annual report.
The numbers are ambivalent at best, and I believe Blizzard left them that way on purpose. Note there is no figure for NA subs since, what, the end of last year? And I had thought they'd be all over the spike in Christmas sales and subs of the game, but no, there's nothing there.
Ambivalent at best? Tell me which of the 3 parts is ambivalent to you...
January 2005 - 600,000 Subscribers in North America, Australia, South Korea, and New Zealand. June 2005 - China Launch. September 2005 - 1 Million North American Subscribers.
Is any of this really that hard to follow? If so I find it ironic that these are the same people that call the WOW community immature.
I still maintain that as best as the figures can possibly show, and with the very little facts Blizzard has given, they have just plain stopped growing in numbers here. I'm not saying that out of hate; I encourage folks to try WOW all the time, for at least levels 1-59. I'm saying it because it's the best I can figure with the knowledge I've been given.
You can maintain it all you want, doesn't make it true - shows your ignorance but untrue none the less. Show me one point of data that shows North American subs have stopped growing. MMOGChart.com states they have anywhere from 1.4M to 2M subs in the North America as of May 2006 that would be more than they had in September of 2005 which equals growth. NPD sales data also shows they remain in the top 3 PC Games sold each week and was #1 for PC Game sold for the month of May, but you are right they may as well shut down the doors. You make big statements and grand theories yet prove you have no idea what you are talking about.
Just curious did you finish your last home work assignment and look up Wal-Mart Retail Link? If not you are going to have to join Trebor in time out.
Originally posted by Eindrachen Originally posted by baff
If you look back earlier in this thread you will see I have linked to the Vivendi stock holders report and give you the exact page showing the current subscribers (2nd quarter) and their geographical breakdown.
I went back several pages, and I got nothin'. The 2005 report I saw listed no such geographical breakdown; it only reported total sales.
I would like to see that link, if you can find it. That's actually the sort of info I've been looking for before any of this fracas started.
It's already all been provided for you. All you have to do is take the time to read it.
It's already all been provided for you. All you have to do is take the time to read it.
(It is illegal for Blizzard to misrepresent these figures).
Only to the investors and government officials. You can tell a customer that "everyone" plays a game, so long as you do it in the context of advertisement.
Hell, Blizzard's own manual isn't truthful anymore, and hasn't been so entirely for almost a year now. But they don't have to reprint it; they break no laws by having a manual listing things as being or about to be available that no longer are. Like Hero classes, which were recently officially canned as an idea.
We honestly shouldn't be surprised this guy couldn't find Vivendi's annual report so here it is:
Now go to page 19 and educate yourself, then come here and thank baff and I for your free education. While you have it open I want you to take a gander at a few things on page 143. First note that 49% of Vivendi Games 600M Euro came from "Online Games other", let's call it 300M Euros. Second note that 53% of their revenue comes from North America. Finally, and this hopefully this will finally shut you up about WOW declining in the US look down below where it plainly states "During 2005 WOW launched successfully in several key terroritories and continued it's strong growth in North America".
Originally posted by baff Can you show many any other MMORPG that has got any GOTY? Even one? Let alone all these other awards. http://www.earth365.com/buy-wow-gold/introduction/awards.htm . Wow is ground breaking. Critically acclaimed, best selling. A gaming phenomenom.
It doesn't get my vote for game of the year.
I don't care what game review sites say. I didn't like it for very long.
Originally posted by porgie Originally posted by baff Can you show many any other MMORPG that has got any GOTY? Even one? Let alone all these other awards. http://www.earth365.com/buy-wow-gold/introduction/awards.htm . Wow is ground breaking. Critically acclaimed, best selling. A gaming phenomenom.
It doesn't get my vote for game of the year.
I don't care what game review sites say. I didn't like it for very long.
And my opinion is all that matters to me.
This is the kind of anti-WOW argument that I whole heartedly support. Personal opinions matter, just do not mix your opinions with facts. This guy is the most level headed poster in this thread (next to me of course).
I do work for a publisher but that isn't neither here nor there, although that is how I know about EDI and Retail Link which are standard practices that you obviously know nothing of.
Okay. That doesn't actually prove one way or the other that Blizzard uses them effectively, but whatever.
Again you try to cover up your short comings with worthless blabber. I have showed you factual data that proves North American subs were higher after the China launch, what have you shown? Your ignorance when it comes to retail reporting and how to read an annual report.
Sorry, just a layman's reading here. Didn't know we were in the presence of a financial guru.
You still aren't pointing out anything that I said was wrong. Just "read this, I'm right". But that's okay. I've figured out that you aren't going to put up a fight at all. You just can't.
Ambivalent at best? Tell me which of the 3 parts is ambivalent to you...
January 2005 - 600,000 Subscribers in North America, Australia, South Korea, and New Zealand. June 2005 - China Launch. September 2005 - 1 Million North American Subscribers.
So what happened in the nine months? You still haven't answered why sales were so sluggish. Or Why they haven't reported NA subs in the past few months.
I know it's hard not to just regurgitate data as if that's some kind of statement, but since you think I'm too dumb to understand, explain it to me better.
Is any of this really that hard to follow? If so I find it ironic that these are the same people that call the WOW community immature.
Says the man that can't tell the truth, or actually explain his argument in better detail than just copying and pasting a bunch of repetitive statements.
So what happened in the nine months? You still haven't answered why sales were so sluggish. Or Why they haven't reported NA subs in the past few months.
I know it's hard not to just regurgitate data as if that's some kind of statement, but since you think I'm too dumb to understand, explain it to me better.
Is any of this really that hard to follow? If so I find it ironic that these are the same people that call the WOW community immature.
Says the man that can't tell the truth, or actually explain his argument in better detail than just copying and pasting a bunch of repetitive statements.
Says the man that can't tell the truth, or actually explain his argument in better detail than just copying and pasting a bunch of repetitive statements.
You can maintain it all you want, doesn't make it true - shows your ignorance but untrue none the less. Show me one point of data that shows North American subs have stopped growing. MMOGChart.com states they have anywhere from 1.4M to 2M subs in the North America as of May 2006 that would be more than they had in September of 2005 which equals growth. ignorance but untrue none the less. Show me one point of data that shows North American subs have stopped growing. MMOGChart.com states they have anywhere from 1.4M to 2M subs in the North America as of May 2006 that would be more than they had in September of 2005 which equals growth.
And still less than they had last summer. Unless you really think they only gained 400,000 subs in 9 months. NPD sales data also shows they remain in the top 3 PC Games sold each week and was #1 for PC Game sold for the month of May, but you are right they may as well shut down the doors.
How about other months? Last year? The year before that? Details, man. You keep asking for others to give them, but you won't give them yourself. I at least provided links to the facts I brought. Can you please link to anything backing up your claims? You make big statements and grand theories yet prove you have no idea what you are talking about.
And neither do you. You're just another random jackhole like me, whose opinion is no more or less valid. If you don't want to debate the issue, just say it. You still aren't actually providing any kind of reasonable effort on this. And I'm not wrong just because you say so; either put up, or shut up.
Just curious did you finish your last home work assignment and look up Wal-Mart Retail Link? If not you are going to have to join Trebor in time out.
Actually, your use of that is invalid, since access is limited.
Maybe you need a time out yourself, to figure out something more easily accessible.
Actually, I referenced several times already. If you want to be a complete d***-head and pick and choose what I did or didn't say, this conversation will cease.
Do not put or take words out of my mouth. If that's the best you can do to argue with me, then you've already lost.
Now go to page 19 and educate yourself, then come here and thank baff and I for your free education. While you have it open I want you to take a gander at a few things on page 143. First note that 49% of Vivendi Games 600M Euro came from "Online Games other", let's call it 300M Euros. Second note that 53% of their revenue comes from North America.
North America counted for 53% of total game sales, with Europe having 33%. If we assumed that buying patterns there and here are as close to identical as it matters (and there is no indication of this anywhere, so what the hell), then out of the 2 million subscribers by the China launch, the U.S. still has about 1.06 million subscribers, Europe has 660,000 subs, and China gets the rest.
So for nine months last year, based on this alone, WOW had no discernable growth. It wasn't until the end of the year that sales increased. Say, ain't there a major retail event that time of year? Wasn't it called Christmas? And what since then? Nobody knows. We have nothing to use to see what recent sales are like.
So WOW's popularity is conditional. When it opened in new markets, damn right it gains subs. But how about the earlier places it had been? Seems more and more like it's stalling, carried along by inertia.
Finally, and this hopefully this will finally shut you up about WOW declining in the US look down below where it plainly states "During 2005 WOW launched successfully in several key terroritories and continued it's strong growth in North America".
What they and you consider "strong" might not be in hindsight. It gained significantly at the early part of the year... before the major issues with server stability and other things popped up. Then, nothing. Not a peep.
And there is no report for anything in 2006. Which seems odd to me, but eh, we use what they give us.
Again you try to cover up your short comings with worthless blabber. I have showed you factual data that proves North American subs were higher after the China launch, what have you shown? Your ignorance when it comes to retail reporting and how to read an annual report.
You still aren't pointing out anything that I said was wrong. Just "read this, I'm right". But that's okay. I've figured out that you aren't going to put up a fight at all. You just can't.
LOL I showed North American subscriptions were higher after WOW launched in China. Son, I am the only one providing any data - the only sources you provided were a few pages back. I even went to the trouble of providing you with their annual report and pointing the page out to you. The amount of education I have provided you will hopefully do you some good. Again you dodge the request - show me one piece of proof that shows WOW sales are less in North America since it launched in China.
Ambivalent at best? Tell me which of the 3 parts is ambivalent to you...
January 2005 - 600,000 Subscribers in North America, Australia, South Korea, and New Zealand. June 2005 - China Launch. September 2005 - 1 Million North American Subscribers.
So what happened in the nine months? You still haven't answered why sales were so sluggish. Or Why they haven't reported NA subs in the past few months. I know it's hard not to just regurgitate data as if that's some kind of statement, but since you think I'm too dumb to understand, explain it to me better. Another perfect example of you talking out of your a**: Your statement is "sales were so sluggish". Your facts to support that are "?" My statement is "WOW continues to be in the top 3 PC Games sold ". My facts to support this are http://www.gamespot.com/news/6152601.html Hopefully now you can see what I mean when I say big words like FACTS.
ignorance but untrue none the less. Show me one point of data that shows North American subs have stopped growing. MMOGChart.com states they have anywhere from 1.4M to 2M subs in the North America as of May 2006 that would be more than they had in September of 2005 which equals growth. And still less than they had last summer. Unless you really think they only gained 400,000 subs in 9 months. Are you saying 400,000 subs in North America is not an impressive number? Show me 3 other games that gained 400,000 subs in North America in 9 months.
NPD sales data also shows they remain in the top 3 PC Games sold each week and was #1 for PC Game sold for the month of May, but you are right they may as well shut down the doors. How about other months? Last year? The year before that?
Details, man. You keep asking for others to give them, but you won't give them yourself. I at least provided links to the facts I brought. Can you please link to anything backing up your claims?
Jr. you really should do some basic research before asking for simple requests that are just going to make you look foolish. http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=7832 here is a little snipet from the article - Overall, the year's (2005) top seller for PC was, unsurprisingly, Blizzard and Vivendi's massive MMO hit World Of Warcraft.
If you don't want to debate the issue, just say it. You still aren't actually providing any kind of reasonable effort on this. And I'm not wrong just because you say so; either put up, or shut up. Now I have shown several examples that show not only WOW is one of the best selling games in North America but WOW subs have increased since their China launch. Not it is your turn Jr. show me one point of hard data that shows North American subs were X before they launched in China and now they are Y. I am certain you will try to dodge the question again, and dance around the issue because unfortunately that is all you have. Now be a good monkey and dance for us. And still less than they had last summer. Unless you really think they only gained 400,000 subs in 9 months. Are you saying 400,000 subs in North America is not an impressive number? Show me 3 other games that gained 400,000 subs in North America in 9 months.
NPD sales data also shows they remain in the top 3 PC Games sold each week and was #1 for PC Game sold for the month of May, but you are right they may as well shut down the doors. How about other months? Last year? The year before that?
Details, man. You keep asking for others to give them, but you won't give them yourself. I at least provided links to the facts I brought. Can you please link to anything backing up your claims?
Jr. you really should do some basic research before asking for simple requests that are just going to make you look foolish. http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=7832 here is a little snipet from the article - Overall, the year's (2005) top seller for PC was, unsurprisingly, Blizzard and Vivendi's massive MMO hit World Of Warcraft.
If you don't want to debate the issue, just say it. You still aren't actually providing any kind of reasonable effort on this. And I'm not wrong just because you say so; either put up, or shut up. Now I have shown several examples that show not only WOW is one of the best selling games in North America but WOW subs have increased since their China launch. Not it is your turn Jr. show me one point of hard data that shows North American subs were X before they launched in China and now they are Y. I am certain you will try to dodge the question again, and dance around the issue because unfortunately that is all you have. Now be a good monkey and dance for us.
Actually, I referenced several times already. If you want to be a complete d***-head and pick and choose what I did or didn't say, this conversation will cease.
Do not put or take words out of my mouth. If that's the best you can do to argue with me, then you've already lost.
Somebody call the WHAAAAMBULANCE
Now go to page 19 and educate yourself, then come here and thank baff and I for your free education. While you have it open I want you to take a gander at a few things on page 143. First note that 49% of Vivendi Games 600M Euro came from "Online Games other", let's call it 300M Euros. Second note that 53% of their revenue comes from North America.
North America counted for 53% of total game sales, with Europe having 33%. If we assumed that buying patterns there and here are as close to identical as it matters (and there is no indication of this anywhere, so what the hell), then out of the 2 million subscribers by the China launch, the U.S. still has about 1.06 million subscribers, Europe has 660,000 subs, and China gets the rest.
So for nine months last year, based on this alone, WOW had no discernable growth. It wasn't until the end of the year that sales increased. Say, ain't there a major retail event that time of year? Wasn't it called Christmas? And what since then? Nobody knows. We have nothing to use to see what recent sales are like.
Again I must educate you... Vivendi had another big tital in 2005 called Half Life 2 that isn't nearly as popular in China as it is in the states so to say their Online Game sales equal the geographical breakout of their retail game sales is yet another example of how little you know.
Finally, and this hopefully this will finally shut you up about WOW declining in the US look down below where it plainly states "During 2005 WOW launched successfully in several key terroritories and continued it's strong growth in North America".
Finally, and this hopefully this will finally shut you up about WOW declining in the US look down below where it plainly states "During 2005 WOW launched successfully in several key terroritories and continued it's strong growth in North America".
What they and you consider "strong" might not be in hindsight. It gained significantly at the early part of the year... before the major issues with server stability and other things popped up. Then, nothing. Not a peep.
Again a bold statement which you can't back up with fact. Facts jr. please stick with the facts.
And there is no report for anything in 2006. Which seems odd to me, but eh, we use what they give us.And there is no report for anything in 2006. Which seems odd to me, but eh, we use what they give us.
Ok that line almost made me pee myself. Please go to page 1 and take a long hard look at the cover and tell me what is funny about your statement... Give up? Here is a hint the title is 2005 Annual Report! I hate to do this but you are officially in time out!
pretty heated in here. I thinkthe interest in WoW has declined some but it is still a strong game and will continue to be. You have to realize that there are a lot of people like myself with 4 accounts that i still pay for but do ot play right now. There are many others in the same boat as me. When BC releases there will be a surge for the next year and then once people max out again they will finally drop the game for something new, provided there is anything worthy.
Originally posted by Pride7 LOL I showed North American subscriptions were higher after WOW launched in China. Son, I am the only one providing any data - the only sources you provided were a few pages back. I even went to the trouble of providing you with their annual report and pointing the page out to you. The amount of education I have provided you will hopefully do you some good. Again you dodge the request - show me one piece of proof that shows WOW sales are less in North America since it launched in China.
If the VU annual report is to be believed, at face value, without any further reading, NA had no discernable growth after the China launch (based on press release before then, and the annual report itself). No. You don't have the #1 game in the world like that and have no increase of subs for 9 months. But you might have a company that spiked it's subs for a while, then lost a lot of sales, resulting in no overall yearly growth. Ambivalent at best? Tell me which of the 3 parts is ambivalent to you... January 2005 - 600,000 Subscribers in North America, Australia, South Korea, and New Zealand. June 2005 - China Launch. September 2005 - 1 Million North American Subscribers.
If the VU annual report is to be believed, at face value, without any further reading, NA had no discernable growth after the China launch (based on press release before then, and the annual report itself).
No. You don't have the #1 game in the world like that and have no increase of subs for 9 months. But you might have a company that spiked it's subs for a while, then lost a lot of sales, resulting in no overall yearly growth.
Ambivalent at best? Tell me which of the 3 parts is ambivalent to you...
January 2005 - 600,000 Subscribers in North America, Australia, South Korea, and New Zealand. June 2005 - China Launch. September 2005 - 1 Million North American Subscribers.
You still haven't accounted for the nine months of seemingly no activity.
Another perfect example of you talking out of your a**: Your statement is "sales were so sluggish". Your facts to support that are "?"
Provided in the other post, yes, sales appear sluggish after China.
My statement is "WOW continues to be in the top 3 PC Games sold ". My facts to support this are http://www.gamespot.com/news/6152601.html Hopefully now you can see what I mean when I say big words like FACTS.
Provided in the other post, yes, sales appear sluggish after China.
Hopefully now you can see what I mean when I say big words like FACTS.
I never said that it was not one of the top games sold. I only said that it has started to loose customers at a healthy pace, enough that new ones aren't overcoming the loss.
My whole point is that WOW had it's fifteen minutes of fame, and that that time is now over, for the most part. It'll spike again once with BC, and maybe again during Christmas (if BC isn't released then), and that may be it. Nevermind that other MMOs will chip away slowly at it's customer base as players grow dissatisfied with the game or its customer service.
You act as though all this was some kind of proof that WOW was anything other than a very well-marketed game. Well, that's not true. It was a great marketing movement, sure. That's it. Once the novelty of it fades, the game itself is left wanting.
ignorance but untrue none the less. Show me one point of data that shows North American subs have stopped growing. MMOGChart.com states they have anywhere from 1.4M to 2M subs in the North America as of May 2006 that would be more than they had in September of 2005 which equals growth.
MMOGChart.com is well-known to be based on the same things we've been using in our argument here. They are no more factual than you or I. As for September, that doesn't explain how the 2005 report, which I would hope included December's sales, shows no real growth in the subs for the year. It started with 400,000, and ended with just over a million. I find that odd, but hey, if I were to believe some stranger on an internet forum, I don't know anything. Are you saying 400,000 subs in North America is not an impressive number? Show me 3 other games that gained 400,000 subs in North America in 9 months.
Not that any of this "what they had way back when" matters, but uh, Guild Wars managed 1 million between April and September of last year.
NPD sales data also shows they remain in the top 3 PC Games sold each week and was #1 for PC Game sold for the month of May, but you are right they may as well shut down the doors.
Or maybe they can just pay better attention to the customers and what they are going on about, and all that. Maybe if had better PR that didn't come onto their own forums to ignore, delete, or deride any arguments about problems with the game, it would help. Or maybe they could just be a bit more honest if they screw up something, like patch content that locks up the servers that access it.
Jr. you really should do some basic research before asking for simple requests that are just going to make you look foolish.
"According to the NPD, PC game software unit sales were down 19 percent for the year, totaling 38 million units vs. 47 million units sold in 2004, a major decrease. However, this figure did not take into account digital downloads of casual, MMO, or other titles, a rapidly increasing PC market."
Now I have shown several examples that show not only WOW is one of the best selling games in North America but WOW subs have increased since their China launch. Not it is your turn Jr. show me one point of hard data that shows North American subs were X before they launched in China and now they are Y.
You have only pointed out that worldwide subs have increased. I have shown you the press releases on the average subs for North America before the launched in China, and afterwards. Hell it's in the financial report, on pages 18-20 or so. Didn't you read those? I am certain you will try to dodge the question again, and dance around the issue because unfortunately that is all you have. Now be a good monkey and dance for us.
Actually, I provided further arguments to support my claim, here and in my previous post.
You may scoff at them, but eh, that's your decision. Doesn't make it factual, though.
I applaud the "pick and choose data" method of debate, but it isn't really helping you here.
You have only pointed out that worldwide subs have increased. I have shown you the press releases on the average subs for North America before the launched in China, and afterwards. Hell it's in the financial report, on pages 18-20 or so. Didn't you read those?
I am certain you will try to dodge the question again, and dance around the issue because unfortunately that is all you have. Now be a good monkey and dance for us.
Actually, I provided further arguments to support my claim, here and in my previous post.
You may scoff at them, but eh, that's your decision. Doesn't make it factual, though.
I applaud the "pick and choose data" method of debate, but it isn't really helping you here.
MMOGChart.com is well-known to be based on the same things we've been using in our argument here. They are no more factual than you or I.
As for September, that doesn't explain how the 2005 report, which I would hope included December's sales, shows no real growth in the subs for the year. It started with 400,000, and ended with just over a million. I find that odd, but hey, if I were to believe some stranger on an internet forum, I don't know anything.
Are you saying 400,000 subs in North America is not an impressive number? Show me 3 other games that gained 400,000 subs in North America in 9 months.
Not that any of this "what they had way back when" matters, but uh, Guild Wars managed 1 million between April and September of last year.
NPD sales data also shows they remain in the top 3 PC Games sold each week and was #1 for PC Game sold for the month of May, but you are right they may as well shut down the doors.
Or maybe they can just pay better attention to the customers and what they are going on about, and all that. Maybe if had better PR that didn't come onto their own forums to ignore, delete, or deride any arguments about problems with the game, it would help. Or maybe they could just be a bit more honest if they screw up something, like patch content that locks up the servers that access it.
Jr. you really should do some basic research before asking for simple requests that are just going to make you look foolish.
"According to the NPD, PC game software unit sales were down 19 percent for the year, totaling 38 million units vs. 47 million units sold in 2004, a major decrease. However, this figure did not take into account digital downloads of casual, MMO, or other titles, a rapidly increasing PC market."
Now I have shown several examples that show not only WOW is one of the best selling games in North America but WOW subs have increased since their China launch. Not it is your turn Jr. show me one point of hard data that shows North American subs were X before they launched in China and now they are Y.
You have only pointed out that worldwide subs have increased. I have shown you the press releases on the average subs for North America before the launched in China, and afterwards. Hell it's in the financial report, on pages 18-20 or so. Didn't you read those? I am certain you will try to dodge the question again, and dance around the issue because unfortunately that is all you have. Now be a good monkey and dance for us.
Actually, I provided further arguments to support my claim, here and in my previous post.
You may scoff at them, but eh, that's your decision. Doesn't make it factual, though.
I applaud the "pick and choose data" method of debate, but it isn't really helping you here.
You have only pointed out that worldwide subs have increased. I have shown you the press releases on the average subs for North America before the launched in China, and afterwards. Hell it's in the financial report, on pages 18-20 or so. Didn't you read those?
I am certain you will try to dodge the question again, and dance around the issue because unfortunately that is all you have. Now be a good monkey and dance for us.
Actually, I provided further arguments to support my claim, here and in my previous post.
You may scoff at them, but eh, that's your decision. Doesn't make it factual, though.
I applaud the "pick and choose data" method of debate, but it isn't really helping you here.
Provided in the other post, yes, sales appear sluggish after China.
Hopefully now you can see what I mean when I say big words like FACTS.
I never said that it was not one of the top games sold. I only said that it has started to loose customers at a healthy pace, enough that new ones aren't overcoming the loss.
My whole point is that WOW had it's fifteen minutes of fame, and that that time is now over, for the most part. It'll spike again once with BC, and maybe again during Christmas (if BC isn't released then), and that may be it. Nevermind that other MMOs will chip away slowly at it's customer base as players grow dissatisfied with the game or its customer service.
You act as though all this was some kind of proof that WOW was anything other than a very well-marketed game. Well, that's not true. It was a great marketing movement, sure. That's it. Once the novelty of it fades, the game itself is left wanting.
ignorance but untrue none the less. Show me one point of data that shows North American subs have stopped growing. MMOGChart.com states they have anywhere from 1.4M to 2M subs in the North America as of May 2006 that would be more than they had in September of 2005 which equals growth.
MMOGChart.com is well-known to be based on the same things we've been using in our argument here. They are no more factual than you or I. As for September, that doesn't explain how the 2005 report, which I would hope included December's sales, shows no real growth in the subs for the year. It started with 400,000, and ended with just over a million. I find that odd, but hey, if I were to believe some stranger on an internet forum, I don't know anything. Are you saying 400,000 subs in North America is not an impressive number? Show me 3 other games that gained 400,000 subs in North America in 9 months.
Not that any of this "what they had way back when" matters, but uh, Guild Wars managed 1 million between April and September of last year.
NPD sales data also shows they remain in the top 3 PC Games sold each week and was #1 for PC Game sold for the month of May, but you are right they may as well shut down the doors.
Or maybe they can just pay better attention to the customers and what they are going on about, and all that. Maybe if had better PR that didn't come onto their own forums to ignore, delete, or deride any arguments about problems with the game, it would help. Or maybe they could just be a bit more honest if they screw up something, like patch content that locks up the servers that access it.
Jr. you really should do some basic research before asking for simple requests that are just going to make you look foolish.
"According to the NPD, PC game software unit sales were down 19 percent for the year, totaling 38 million units vs. 47 million units sold in 2004, a major decrease. However, this figure did not take into account digital downloads of casual, MMO, or other titles, a rapidly increasing PC market."
Now I have shown several examples that show not only WOW is one of the best selling games in North America but WOW subs have increased since their China launch. Not it is your turn Jr. show me one point of hard data that shows North American subs were X before they launched in China and now they are Y.
You have only pointed out that worldwide subs have increased. I have shown you the press releases on the average subs for North America before the launched in China, and afterwards. Hell it's in the financial report, on pages 18-20 or so. Didn't you read those? I am certain you will try to dodge the question again, and dance around the issue because unfortunately that is all you have. Now be a good monkey and dance for us.
Actually, I provided further arguments to support my claim, here and in my previous post.
You may scoff at them, but eh, that's your decision. Doesn't make it factual, though.
I applaud the "pick and choose data" method of debate, but it isn't really helping you here.
You have only pointed out that worldwide subs have increased. I have shown you the press releases on the average subs for North America before the launched in China, and afterwards. Hell it's in the financial report, on pages 18-20 or so. Didn't you read those?
I am certain you will try to dodge the question again, and dance around the issue because unfortunately that is all you have. Now be a good monkey and dance for us.
Actually, I provided further arguments to support my claim, here and in my previous post.
You may scoff at them, but eh, that's your decision. Doesn't make it factual, though.
I applaud the "pick and choose data" method of debate, but it isn't really helping you here.
MMOGChart.com is well-known to be based on the same things we've been using in our argument here. They are no more factual than you or I.
As for September, that doesn't explain how the 2005 report, which I would hope included December's sales, shows no real growth in the subs for the year. It started with 400,000, and ended with just over a million. I find that odd, but hey, if I were to believe some stranger on an internet forum, I don't know anything.
Are you saying 400,000 subs in North America is not an impressive number? Show me 3 other games that gained 400,000 subs in North America in 9 months.
Not that any of this "what they had way back when" matters, but uh, Guild Wars managed 1 million between April and September of last year.
NPD sales data also shows they remain in the top 3 PC Games sold each week and was #1 for PC Game sold for the month of May, but you are right they may as well shut down the doors.
Or maybe they can just pay better attention to the customers and what they are going on about, and all that. Maybe if had better PR that didn't come onto their own forums to ignore, delete, or deride any arguments about problems with the game, it would help. Or maybe they could just be a bit more honest if they screw up something, like patch content that locks up the servers that access it.
Jr. you really should do some basic research before asking for simple requests that are just going to make you look foolish.
"According to the NPD, PC game software unit sales were down 19 percent for the year, totaling 38 million units vs. 47 million units sold in 2004, a major decrease. However, this figure did not take into account digital downloads of casual, MMO, or other titles, a rapidly increasing PC market."
Now I have shown several examples that show not only WOW is one of the best selling games in North America but WOW subs have increased since their China launch. Not it is your turn Jr. show me one point of hard data that shows North American subs were X before they launched in China and now they are Y.
You have only pointed out that worldwide subs have increased. I have shown you the press releases on the average subs for North America before the launched in China, and afterwards. Hell it's in the financial report, on pages 18-20 or so. Didn't you read those? I am certain you will try to dodge the question again, and dance around the issue because unfortunately that is all you have. Now be a good monkey and dance for us.
Actually, I provided further arguments to support my claim, here and in my previous post.
You may scoff at them, but eh, that's your decision. Doesn't make it factual, though.
I applaud the "pick and choose data" method of debate, but it isn't really helping you here.
You have only pointed out that worldwide subs have increased. I have shown you the press releases on the average subs for North America before the launched in China, and afterwards. Hell it's in the financial report, on pages 18-20 or so. Didn't you read those?
I am certain you will try to dodge the question again, and dance around the issue because unfortunately that is all you have. Now be a good monkey and dance for us.
Actually, I provided further arguments to support my claim, here and in my previous post.
You may scoff at them, but eh, that's your decision. Doesn't make it factual, though.
I applaud the "pick and choose data" method of debate, but it isn't really helping you here.
No, wait, not astounding. That other word. Insipid.
Again I must educate you... Vivendi had another big tital in 2005 called Half Life 2 that isn't nearly as popular in China as it is in the states so to say their Online Game sales equal the geographical breakout of their retail game sales is yet another example of how little you know.
My. Your wit is astounding.
No, wait, not astounding. That other word. Insipid.
Again I must educate you... Vivendi had another big tital in 2005 called Half Life 2 that isn't nearly as popular in China as it is in the states so to say their Online Game sales equal the geographical breakout of their retail game sales is yet another example of how little you know.
But sadly, you can't prove that it had any impact on Blizzard's sales of WOW overall, since other games could have had equal impact overseas (or the same game, in fact) to bring the averages back to the same general area.
Try again.
Again a bold statement which you can't back up with fact. Facts jr. please stick with the facts.Again a bold statement which you can't back up with fact. Facts jr. please stick with the facts.
Well, you aren't even trying to use any facts anymore, whereas I am using what little is there to work with.
I'm sorry the facts don't support your statements more than they give creedence to my own, but you must learn to live with these little disappointments in life.
Ok that line almost made me pee myself. Please go to page 1 and take a long hard look at the cover and tell me what is funny about your statement... Give up? Here is a hint the title is 2005 Annual Report! I hate to do this but you are officially in time out!
6 months makes a pretty big difference in sales. Based only on the 2005 report, yes, WOW isn't doing good. 2006 numbers could change that some, but there are none to be had. I'm sorry you can't actually these sorts of things for yourself, and that you insist on this assine manner in which to argue the matter. But, hey, whatever. Nothing you've said makes any sense anyway, so don't start now on my account.
6 months makes a pretty big difference in sales. Based only on the 2005 report, yes, WOW isn't doing good. 2006 numbers could change that some, but there are none to be had.
I'm sorry you can't actually these sorts of things for yourself, and that you insist on this assine manner in which to argue the matter. But, hey, whatever.
Nothing you've said makes any sense anyway, so don't start now on my account.
Originally posted by Pride7 LOL I showed North American subscriptions were higher after WOW launched in China. Son, I am the only one providing any data - the only sources you provided were a few pages back. I even went to the trouble of providing you with their annual report and pointing the page out to you. The amount of education I have provided you will hopefully do you some good. Again you dodge the request - show me one piece of proof that shows WOW sales are less in North America since it launched in China. If the VU annual report is to be believed, at face value, without any further reading, NA had no discernable growth after the China launch (based on press release before then, and the annual report itself). Sad to see you have resorted to flat out lying, not surprising but sad none the less. Point us to the data that supports your claims. I showed you the page number that shows that WOW had 600k North American subs before they shipped in China and 1M after. Point us all to facts that show they had more before they launched in China then after. You continue to dance around providing links to any real data. No. You don't have the #1 game in the world like that and have no increase of subs for 9 months. But you might have a company that spiked it's subs for a while, then lost a lot of sales, resulting in no overall yearly growth. No overall yearly growth? Come on you aren't that ignorant are you? Ok time for more education, open your text (Vivendi's Annual Report) to page 143. You will see that in 2004 Vivendi Games did 475 M Euros with 9% of that number coming from Online Games. In 2005 you will see Vivendi Games did 641 M Euros with 49% of that number coming from Online Games. You call that no yearly growth? You can't be that dumb can you?
Ambivalent at best? Tell me which of the 3 parts is ambivalent to you...
January 2005 - 600,000 Subscribers in North America, Australia, South Korea, and New Zealand. June 2005 - China Launch. September 2005 - 1 Million North American Subscribers.
You still haven't accounted for the nine months of seemingly no activity.
over 400,000 in 9 months is pretty big activity but you keep forgetting that. The #1 rated MMO on this site - Eve has only 121,000 subs and it took it longer than 9 months to get that many
Another perfect example of you talking out of your a**:
Your statement is "sales were so sluggish". Your facts to support that are "?"
Provided in the other post, yes, sales appear sluggish after China. No, you didn't. You created a theory around data but have no evidence to back up your claims. Just wondering what the weather is like in your world that revolves around facts and data points. Do us all a favor a cite sources that show the sales before and after the China launch otherwise continue to dance my little monkey.
Provided in the other post, yes, sales appear sluggish after China. No, you didn't. You created a theory around data but have no evidence to back up your claims. Just wondering what the weather is like in your world that revolves around facts and data points. Do us all a favor a cite sources that show the sales before and after the China launch otherwise continue to dance my little monkey.
I never said that it was not one of the top games sold. I only said that it has started to loose customers at a healthy pace, enough that new ones aren't overcoming the loss. Yet you have no data to back this up. The only data that is available shows the WOW subs increased in North America (and Worldwide) after the China launch. You may want to ask yourself why it is you have such a hard time with this reality, is it pure WOW jealousy? If so take a close look at your life and see if there isnt something bigger that is really causing this blindness to fact.
ignorance but untrue none the less. Show me one point of data that shows North American subs have stopped growing. MMOGChart.com states they have anywhere from 1.4M to 2M subs in the North America as of May 2006 that would be more than they had in September of 2005 which equals growth.
Are you saying 400,000 subs in North America is not an impressive number? Show me 3 other games that gained 400,000 subs in North America in 9 months. Not that any of this "what they had way back when" matters, but uh, Guild Wars managed 1 million between April and September of last year. Not that any of this "what they had way back when" matters, but uh, Guild Wars managed 1 million between April and September of last year.
I will overlook the fact that Guild Wars doesn't have a monthly subscription so it's not apples to apples and just state that is only 1 example, I asked for 3 - I will take you forgetting to name #2 & #3 as more of your dancing.
Jr. you really should do some basic research before asking for simple requests that are just going to make you look foolish. http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=7832 here is a little snipet from the article - Overall, the year's (2005) top seller for PC was, unsurprisingly, Blizzard and Vivendi's massive MMO hit World Of Warcraft. Funny, you left out the previous paragraph: "According to the NPD, PC game software unit sales were down 19 percent for the year, totaling 38 million units vs. 47 million units sold in 2004, a major decrease. However, this figure did not take into account digital downloads of casual, MMO, or other titles, a rapidly increasing PC market." Funny? Not sure why you find it funny that you drove my point home even further or did you not know that WOW is one of the digital downloads they were talking about? Let's take a peak at File Planet and see what the #1 download is shall we... <drum roll> Gee wiz it's none other than World of Warcraft - Trial Client If I were you I would just give up now, you keep setting them up and I keep knocking them out of the park. How embarrissing for you.
Now I have shown several examples that show not only WOW is one of the best selling games in North America but WOW subs have increased since their China launch. Not it is your turn Jr. show me one point of hard data that shows North American subs were X before they launched in China and now they are Y.
You have only pointed out that worldwide subs have increased. I have shown you the press releases on the average subs for North America before the launched in China, and afterwards. Hell it's in the financial report, on pages 18-20 or so. Didn't you read those? I really find blatant lying sad and a true sign of a beaten dog. You have never provided average subs for North America before the launch in China or afterward. The annual report plainly states that North America subs before the China launch were 600k and 1M after the China launch. I also showed that MMOGChart.com estimates North America subs to be 1.4M to 2M in May. Why not give us links to the facts you claim, give us the actual data that sales North America subs = X before launch and North America subs = Y after launch my little dancing monkey.
Now I have shown several examples that show not only WOW is one of the best selling games in North America but WOW subs have increased since their China launch. Not it is your turn Jr. show me one point of hard data that shows North American subs were X before they launched in China and now they are Y.
You have only pointed out that worldwide subs have increased. I have shown you the press releases on the average subs for North America before the launched in China, and afterwards. Hell it's in the financial report, on pages 18-20 or so. Didn't you read those? I really find blatant lying sad and a true sign of a beaten dog. You have never provided average subs for North America before the launch in China or afterward. The annual report plainly states that North America subs before the China launch were 600k and 1M after the China launch. I also showed that MMOGChart.com estimates North America subs to be 1.4M to 2M in May. Why not give us links to the facts you claim, give us the actual data that sales North America subs = X before launch and North America subs = Y after launch my little dancing monkey.
1. no conclusion will ever be reached, everyone is convinced they are right and won't change their mind, only time will tell how WoW fares. another 500 posts won't change that.
2. the idea of quality vs quantity is lost here, posting what would be entire chapters in books doesn't make you right, try boiling it all down and making one damn paragraph.
this thread should die- its to damned long, and when I tried to start at the end and read backwards, I ran into SON... the univseral sign for holy shit, I'm an asshole, please kick me as hard as possible in the nuts.
Originally posted by Necran This thread must die, for 2 reasons.
1. no conclusion will ever be reached, everyone is convinced they are right and won't change their mind, only time will tell how WoW fares. another 500 posts won't change that.
2. the idea of quality vs quantity is lost here, posting what would be entire chapters in books doesn't make you right, try boiling it all down and making one damn paragraph.
1. I concur. There is however conclusive evidence to support the assertions that WoW is the best selliing video game ever and that worldwide, subscriptions are at record highs in every geographical area. While i can't speak for the future of WoW, the past and the present are well documented. To dispute this is foolishness.
2. Quality versus Quantity.
Quality does not = quantity. However millions of people don't buy goods if they are poor quality. The Quantity of sales is a very good indicator of a products quality.
Quality does not = personal taste. Hagen Daas make quality ice cream, that you dislike Vanilla flavour or ice cream in general has no relevance to the subject of quality.
If you don't like PvP or Raiding, the artwork or anything else in WoW, that still does not in anyway imply that WoW is low quality. This is sloppy thinking.
.
I don't like Wow.
or....
I don't like WoW because blah blah and blah are reasonable opinions.
WoW is failing in subscriptions or is a low quality product are two unreasonable opinions.
Originally posted by baff Quality does not = quantity. However millions of people don't buy goods if they are poor quality. The Quantity of sales is a very good indicator of a products quality
this is where you have been wrong all the time. mcdonalds sells millions of hamburgers, but they are quite low quality. britney spears sold millions of copies, but it isnt a high quality music. 4 harry potter's movies are on the top ten most viewed movies, but they for sure are not even on the 100 top quality list. the da vinci code book sold millions of copies, yet it isnt half as good as many others that didnt sell even a fraction of it.
any relationship you want to make between sales and quality is stupid and wrong. you can not say any of this things:
1. it sold a lot, it must be good 2. it sold a lot, it must be bad 3. it didnt sell any good, it must be good 4. it didnt sell any good, it must be bad
Originally posted by baff Quality does not = quantity. However millions of people don't buy goods if they are poor quality. The Quantity of sales is a very good indicator of a products quality
this is where you have been wrong all the time. mcdonalds sells millions of hamburgers, but they are quite low quality. britney spears sold millions of copies, but it isnt a high quality music. 4 harry potter's movies are on the top ten most viewed movies, but they for sure are not even on the 100 top quality list. the da vinci code book sold millions of copies, yet it isnt half as good as many others that didnt sell even a fraction of it.
any relationship you want to make between sales and quality is stupid and wrong. you can not say any of this things:
1. it sold a lot, it must be good 2. it sold a lot, it must be bad 3. it didnt sell any good, it must be good 4. it didnt sell any good, it must be bad
all those 4 sentences are false, always.
Its wrong to compare the game business to the music, movie and food business. Why mcdonalds sell so good? multpile reasons. kids love the food, its easy to reach as mcdonalds is everywhere, its pretty cheap and fast. all these factors don't count in WoW.
Britney Spears, you think britney spears sells so good because of her voice? No, because of her looks, it has to do with status and much more. these are also things that don't count for WoW.
Harry potter movies may not be as good for people who don't like harry potter, but it really is a great movie for fans of the books, and it also has some sort of collection value.also, I can't remember Harry potter requires a monthly fee either.
can't comment on the Da vinci code. its a best seller, and I really enjoyed the book so...
2. Quality versus Quantity. Quality does not = quantity. However millions of people don't buy goods if they are poor quality. The Quantity of sales is a very good indicator of a products quality.
Explain how the Enter The Matrix game managed to sell millions of copies despite being universally panned by critics and players alike.
WoW gamedesign wise is mediocre at best, but it's been agressively advertised and is based on an established franchise.
Originally posted by Minsc Originally posted by baff
2. Quality versus Quantity. Quality does not = quantity. However millions of people don't buy goods if they are poor quality. The Quantity of sales is a very good indicator of a products quality.
Explain how the Enter The Matrix game managed to sell millions of copies despite being universally panned by critics and players alike.
WoW gamedesign wise is mediocre at best, but it's been agressively advertised and is based on an established franchise.
Dungeons and Dragons also sold 300k copies. however the game has very few players left. because the people didn't know what the game was like before they bought it, its that simple. thats the same for enter the matrix.however WoW requires a monthly fee. people won't keep paying for a product they don't enjoy.
Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by apertotes
Originally posted by baff Quality does not = quantity. However millions of people don't buy goods if they are poor quality. The Quantity of sales is a very good indicator of a products quality
this is where you have been wrong all the time. mcdonalds sells millions of hamburgers, but they are quite low quality. britney spears sold millions of copies, but it isnt a high quality music. 4 harry potter's movies are on the top ten most viewed movies, but they for sure are not even on the 100 top quality list. the da vinci code book sold millions of copies, yet it isnt half as good as many others that didnt sell even a fraction of it.
any relationship you want to make between sales and quality is stupid and wrong. you can not say any of this things:
1. it sold a lot, it must be good 2. it sold a lot, it must be bad 3. it didnt sell any good, it must be good 4. it didnt sell any good, it must be bad
all those 4 sentences are false, always.
Its wrong to compare the game business to the music, movie and food business. Why mcdonalds sell so good? multpile reasons. kids love the food, its easy to reach as mcdonalds is everywhere, its pretty cheap and fast. all these factors don't count in WoW.
LOL. kids love it, easy to reach as it is everywhere, it is fast. we could even add huge marketing and advertising campaigns. what are we talking about? mcdonalds or wow?
Britney Spears, you think britney spears sells so good because of her voice? No, because of her looks, it has to do with status and much more. these are also things that don't count for WoW.
it sells so good because of her looks and status, not because of quality. man, are we talking about Britney or wow?
Harry potter movies may not be as good for people who don't like harry potter, but it really is a great movie for fans of the books, and it also has some sort of collection value.also, I can't remember Harry potter requires a monthly fee either.
it really is good for fans. fans of harry potter or warcraft?
can't comment on the Da vinci code. its a best seller, and I really enjoyed the book so...
yeah, its a bestseller and you enjoyed. are we still talking about wow?
i agree with apertotes and many other posters. sales got nothing in common with quality or lack of.
Originally posted by ssstupido Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by apertotes
Originally posted by baff Quality does not = quantity. However millions of people don't buy goods if they are poor quality. The Quantity of sales is a very good indicator of a products quality
this is where you have been wrong all the time. mcdonalds sells millions of hamburgers, but they are quite low quality. britney spears sold millions of copies, but it isnt a high quality music. 4 harry potter's movies are on the top ten most viewed movies, but they for sure are not even on the 100 top quality list. the da vinci code book sold millions of copies, yet it isnt half as good as many others that didnt sell even a fraction of it.
any relationship you want to make between sales and quality is stupid and wrong. you can not say any of this things:
1. it sold a lot, it must be good 2. it sold a lot, it must be bad 3. it didnt sell any good, it must be good 4. it didnt sell any good, it must be bad
all those 4 sentences are false, always.
Its wrong to compare the game business to the music, movie and food business. Why mcdonalds sell so good? multpile reasons. kids love the food, its easy to reach as mcdonalds is everywhere, its pretty cheap and fast. all these factors don't count in WoW.
LOL. kids love it, easy to reach as it is everywhere, it is fast. we could even add huge marketing and advertising campaigns. what are we talking about? mcdonalds or wow?
Britney Spears, you think britney spears sells so good because of her voice? No, because of her looks, it has to do with status and much more. these are also things that don't count for WoW.
it sells so good because of her looks and status, not because of quality. man, are we talking about Britney or wow?
Harry potter movies may not be as good for people who don't like harry potter, but it really is a great movie for fans of the books, and it also has some sort of collection value.also, I can't remember Harry potter requires a monthly fee either.
it really is good for fans. fans of harry potter or warcraft?
can't comment on the Da vinci code. its a best seller, and I really enjoyed the book so...
yeah, its a bestseller and you enjoyed. are we still talking about wow?
i agree with apertotes and many other posters. sales got nothing in common with quality or lack of.
Originally posted by ssstupido Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by apertotes
Originally posted by baff Quality does not = quantity. However millions of people don't buy goods if they are poor quality. The Quantity of sales is a very good indicator of a products quality
this is where you have been wrong all the time. mcdonalds sells millions of hamburgers, but they are quite low quality. britney spears sold millions of copies, but it isnt a high quality music. 4 harry potter's movies are on the top ten most viewed movies, but they for sure are not even on the 100 top quality list. the da vinci code book sold millions of copies, yet it isnt half as good as many others that didnt sell even a fraction of it.
any relationship you want to make between sales and quality is stupid and wrong. you can not say any of this things:
1. it sold a lot, it must be good 2. it sold a lot, it must be bad 3. it didnt sell any good, it must be good 4. it didnt sell any good, it must be bad
all those 4 sentences are false, always.
Its wrong to compare the game business to the music, movie and food business. Why mcdonalds sell so good? multpile reasons. kids love the food, its easy to reach as mcdonalds is everywhere, its pretty cheap and fast. all these factors don't count in WoW.
LOL. kids love it, easy to reach as it is everywhere, it is fast. we could even add huge marketing and advertising campaigns. what are we talking about? mcdonalds or wow?
Britney Spears, you think britney spears sells so good because of her voice? No, because of her looks, it has to do with status and much more. these are also things that don't count for WoW.
it sells so good because of her looks and status, not because of quality. man, are we talking about Britney or wow?
Harry potter movies may not be as good for people who don't like harry potter, but it really is a great movie for fans of the books, and it also has some sort of collection value.also, I can't remember Harry potter requires a monthly fee either.
it really is good for fans. fans of harry potter or warcraft?
can't comment on the Da vinci code. its a best seller, and I really enjoyed the book so...
yeah, its a bestseller and you enjoyed. are we still talking about wow?
i agree with apertotes and many other posters. sales got nothing in common with quality or lack of.
Was that sarcasm, or did you completely missed the point?
Comments
I went back several pages, and I got nothin'. The 2005 report I saw listed no such geographical breakdown; it only reported total sales.
I would like to see that link, if you can find it. That's actually the sort of info I've been looking for before any of this fracas started.
Only to the investors and government officials. You can tell a customer that "everyone" plays a game, so long as you do it in the context of advertisement.
Hell, Blizzard's own manual isn't truthful anymore, and hasn't been so entirely for almost a year now. But they don't have to reprint it; they break no laws by having a manual listing things as being or about to be available that no longer are. Like Hero classes, which were recently officially canned as an idea.
I went back several pages, and I got nothin'. The 2005 report I saw listed no such geographical breakdown; it only reported total sales.
I would like to see that link, if you can find it. That's actually the sort of info I've been looking for before any of this fracas started.
Only to the investors and government officials. You can tell a customer that "everyone" plays a game, so long as you do it in the context of advertisement.
Hell, Blizzard's own manual isn't truthful anymore, and hasn't been so entirely for almost a year now. But they don't have to reprint it; they break no laws by having a manual listing things as being or about to be available that no longer are. Like Hero classes, which were recently officially canned as an idea.
We honestly shouldn't be surprised this guy couldn't find Vivendi's annual report so here it is:
http://www.vivendi.com/corp/en/publications/documents/20060407_doc_de_reference_2005.pdf
Now go to page 19 and educate yourself, then come here and thank baff and I for your free education. While you have it open I want you to take a gander at a few things on page 143. First note that 49% of Vivendi Games 600M Euro came from "Online Games other", let's call it 300M Euros. Second note that 53% of their revenue comes from North America. Finally, and this hopefully this will finally shut you up about WOW declining in the US look down below where it plainly states "During 2005 WOW launched successfully in several key terroritories and continued it's strong growth in North America".
School is out yet again.
I don't care what game review sites say. I didn't like it for very long.
And my opinion is all that matters to me.
-----------------------
</OBAMA>
I don't care what game review sites say. I didn't like it for very long.
And my opinion is all that matters to me.
This is the kind of anti-WOW argument that I whole heartedly support. Personal opinions matter, just do not mix your opinions with facts. This guy is the most level headed poster in this thread (next to me of course).
Okay. That doesn't actually prove one way or the other that Blizzard uses them effectively, but whatever.
Sorry, just a layman's reading here. Didn't know we were in the presence of a financial guru.
You still aren't pointing out anything that I said was wrong. Just "read this, I'm right". But that's okay. I've figured out that you aren't going to put up a fight at all. You just can't.
So what happened in the nine months? You still haven't answered why sales were so sluggish. Or Why they haven't reported NA subs in the past few months.
I know it's hard not to just regurgitate data as if that's some kind of statement, but since you think I'm too dumb to understand, explain it to me better.
Says the man that can't tell the truth, or actually explain his argument in better detail than just copying and pasting a bunch of repetitive statements.
You can maintain it all you want, doesn't make it true - shows your ignorance but untrue none the less. Show me one point of data that shows North American subs have stopped growing. MMOGChart.com states they have anywhere from 1.4M to 2M subs in the North America as of May 2006 that would be more than they had in September of 2005 which equals growth.
ignorance but untrue none the less. Show me one point of data that shows North American subs have stopped growing. MMOGChart.com states they have anywhere from 1.4M to 2M subs in the North America as of May 2006 that would be more than they had in September of 2005 which equals growth.
And still less than they had last summer. Unless you really think they only gained 400,000 subs in 9 months.
NPD sales data also shows they remain in the top 3 PC Games sold each week and was #1 for PC Game sold for the month of May, but you are right they may as well shut down the doors.
How about other months? Last year? The year before that?
Details, man. You keep asking for others to give them, but you won't give them yourself. I at least provided links to the facts I brought. Can you please link to anything backing up your claims?
You make big statements and grand theories yet prove you have no idea what you are talking about.
And neither do you. You're just another random jackhole like me, whose opinion is no more or less valid.
If you don't want to debate the issue, just say it. You still aren't actually providing any kind of reasonable effort on this. And I'm not wrong just because you say so; either put up, or shut up.
Actually, your use of that is invalid, since access is limited.
Maybe you need a time out yourself, to figure out something more easily accessible.
Actually, I referenced several times already. If you want to be a complete d***-head and pick and choose what I did or didn't say, this conversation will cease.
Do not put or take words out of my mouth. If that's the best you can do to argue with me, then you've already lost.
North America counted for 53% of total game sales, with Europe having 33%. If we assumed that buying patterns there and here are as close to identical as it matters (and there is no indication of this anywhere, so what the hell), then out of the 2 million subscribers by the China launch, the U.S. still has about 1.06 million subscribers, Europe has 660,000 subs, and China gets the rest.
So for nine months last year, based on this alone, WOW had no discernable growth. It wasn't until the end of the year that sales increased. Say, ain't there a major retail event that time of year? Wasn't it called Christmas? And what since then? Nobody knows. We have nothing to use to see what recent sales are like.
So WOW's popularity is conditional. When it opened in new markets, damn right it gains subs. But how about the earlier places it had been? Seems more and more like it's stalling, carried along by inertia.
What they and you consider "strong" might not be in hindsight. It gained significantly at the early part of the year... before the major issues with server stability and other things popped up. Then, nothing. Not a peep.
And there is no report for anything in 2006. Which seems odd to me, but eh, we use what they give us.
Only for you, little man. Only for you.
If the VU annual report is to be believed, at face value, without any further reading, NA had no discernable growth after the China launch (based on press release before then, and the annual report itself).
No. You don't have the #1 game in the world like that and have no increase of subs for 9 months. But you might have a company that spiked it's subs for a while, then lost a lot of sales, resulting in no overall yearly growth.
You still haven't accounted for the nine months of seemingly no activity.
Provided in the other post, yes, sales appear sluggish after China.
I never said that it was not one of the top games sold. I only said that it has started to loose customers at a healthy pace, enough that new ones aren't overcoming the loss.
My whole point is that WOW had it's fifteen minutes of fame, and that that time is now over, for the most part. It'll spike again once with BC, and maybe again during Christmas (if BC isn't released then), and that may be it. Nevermind that other MMOs will chip away slowly at it's customer base as players grow dissatisfied with the game or its customer service.
You act as though all this was some kind of proof that WOW was anything other than a very well-marketed game. Well, that's not true. It was a great marketing movement, sure. That's it. Once the novelty of it fades, the game itself is left wanting.
Not that any of this "what they had way back when" matters, but uh, Guild Wars managed 1 million between April and September of last year.
Or maybe they can just pay better attention to the customers and what they are going on about, and all that. Maybe if had better PR that didn't come onto their own forums to ignore, delete, or deride any arguments about problems with the game, it would help. Or maybe they could just be a bit more honest if they screw up something, like patch content that locks up the servers that access it.
Funny, you left out the previous paragraph:
"According to the NPD, PC game software unit sales were down 19 percent for the year, totaling 38 million units vs. 47 million units sold in 2004, a major decrease. However, this figure did not take into account digital downloads of casual, MMO, or other titles, a rapidly increasing PC market."
Actually, I provided further arguments to support my claim, here and in my previous post.
You may scoff at them, but eh, that's your decision. Doesn't make it factual, though.
I applaud the "pick and choose data" method of debate, but it isn't really helping you here.
You have only pointed out that worldwide subs have increased. I have shown you the press releases on the average subs for North America before the launched in China, and afterwards. Hell it's in the financial report, on pages 18-20 or so. Didn't you read those?
Actually, I provided further arguments to support my claim, here and in my previous post.
You may scoff at them, but eh, that's your decision. Doesn't make it factual, though.
I applaud the "pick and choose data" method of debate, but it isn't really helping you here.
MMOGChart.com is well-known to be based on the same things we've been using in our argument here. They are no more factual than you or I.
As for September, that doesn't explain how the 2005 report, which I would hope included December's sales, shows no real growth in the subs for the year. It started with 400,000, and ended with just over a million. I find that odd, but hey, if I were to believe some stranger on an internet forum, I don't know anything.
Not that any of this "what they had way back when" matters, but uh, Guild Wars managed 1 million between April and September of last year.
Or maybe they can just pay better attention to the customers and what they are going on about, and all that. Maybe if had better PR that didn't come onto their own forums to ignore, delete, or deride any arguments about problems with the game, it would help. Or maybe they could just be a bit more honest if they screw up something, like patch content that locks up the servers that access it.
Funny, you left out the previous paragraph:
"According to the NPD, PC game software unit sales were down 19 percent for the year, totaling 38 million units vs. 47 million units sold in 2004, a major decrease. However, this figure did not take into account digital downloads of casual, MMO, or other titles, a rapidly increasing PC market."
Actually, I provided further arguments to support my claim, here and in my previous post.
You may scoff at them, but eh, that's your decision. Doesn't make it factual, though.
I applaud the "pick and choose data" method of debate, but it isn't really helping you here.
You have only pointed out that worldwide subs have increased. I have shown you the press releases on the average subs for North America before the launched in China, and afterwards. Hell it's in the financial report, on pages 18-20 or so. Didn't you read those?
Actually, I provided further arguments to support my claim, here and in my previous post.
You may scoff at them, but eh, that's your decision. Doesn't make it factual, though.
I applaud the "pick and choose data" method of debate, but it isn't really helping you here.
Provided in the other post, yes, sales appear sluggish after China.
I never said that it was not one of the top games sold. I only said that it has started to loose customers at a healthy pace, enough that new ones aren't overcoming the loss.
My whole point is that WOW had it's fifteen minutes of fame, and that that time is now over, for the most part. It'll spike again once with BC, and maybe again during Christmas (if BC isn't released then), and that may be it. Nevermind that other MMOs will chip away slowly at it's customer base as players grow dissatisfied with the game or its customer service.
You act as though all this was some kind of proof that WOW was anything other than a very well-marketed game. Well, that's not true. It was a great marketing movement, sure. That's it. Once the novelty of it fades, the game itself is left wanting.
Not that any of this "what they had way back when" matters, but uh, Guild Wars managed 1 million between April and September of last year.
Or maybe they can just pay better attention to the customers and what they are going on about, and all that. Maybe if had better PR that didn't come onto their own forums to ignore, delete, or deride any arguments about problems with the game, it would help. Or maybe they could just be a bit more honest if they screw up something, like patch content that locks up the servers that access it.
Funny, you left out the previous paragraph:
"According to the NPD, PC game software unit sales were down 19 percent for the year, totaling 38 million units vs. 47 million units sold in 2004, a major decrease. However, this figure did not take into account digital downloads of casual, MMO, or other titles, a rapidly increasing PC market."
Actually, I provided further arguments to support my claim, here and in my previous post.
You may scoff at them, but eh, that's your decision. Doesn't make it factual, though.
I applaud the "pick and choose data" method of debate, but it isn't really helping you here.
You have only pointed out that worldwide subs have increased. I have shown you the press releases on the average subs for North America before the launched in China, and afterwards. Hell it's in the financial report, on pages 18-20 or so. Didn't you read those?
Actually, I provided further arguments to support my claim, here and in my previous post.
You may scoff at them, but eh, that's your decision. Doesn't make it factual, though.
I applaud the "pick and choose data" method of debate, but it isn't really helping you here.
MMOGChart.com is well-known to be based on the same things we've been using in our argument here. They are no more factual than you or I.
As for September, that doesn't explain how the 2005 report, which I would hope included December's sales, shows no real growth in the subs for the year. It started with 400,000, and ended with just over a million. I find that odd, but hey, if I were to believe some stranger on an internet forum, I don't know anything.
Not that any of this "what they had way back when" matters, but uh, Guild Wars managed 1 million between April and September of last year.
Or maybe they can just pay better attention to the customers and what they are going on about, and all that. Maybe if had better PR that didn't come onto their own forums to ignore, delete, or deride any arguments about problems with the game, it would help. Or maybe they could just be a bit more honest if they screw up something, like patch content that locks up the servers that access it.
Funny, you left out the previous paragraph:
"According to the NPD, PC game software unit sales were down 19 percent for the year, totaling 38 million units vs. 47 million units sold in 2004, a major decrease. However, this figure did not take into account digital downloads of casual, MMO, or other titles, a rapidly increasing PC market."
Actually, I provided further arguments to support my claim, here and in my previous post.
You may scoff at them, but eh, that's your decision. Doesn't make it factual, though.
I applaud the "pick and choose data" method of debate, but it isn't really helping you here.
You have only pointed out that worldwide subs have increased. I have shown you the press releases on the average subs for North America before the launched in China, and afterwards. Hell it's in the financial report, on pages 18-20 or so. Didn't you read those?
Actually, I provided further arguments to support my claim, here and in my previous post.
You may scoff at them, but eh, that's your decision. Doesn't make it factual, though.
I applaud the "pick and choose data" method of debate, but it isn't really helping you here.
My. Your wit is astounding.
No, wait, not astounding. That other word. Insipid.
But sadly, you can't prove that it had any impact on Blizzard's sales of WOW overall, since other games could have had equal impact overseas (or the same game, in fact) to bring the averages back to the same general area.
Try again.
Well, you aren't even trying to use any facts anymore, whereas I am using what little is there to work with.
I'm sorry the facts don't support your statements more than they give creedence to my own, but you must learn to live with these little disappointments in life.
6 months makes a pretty big difference in sales. Based only on the 2005 report, yes, WOW isn't doing good. 2006 numbers could change that some, but there are none to be had.
I'm sorry you can't actually these sorts of things for yourself, and that you insist on this assine manner in which to argue the matter. But, hey, whatever.
Nothing you've said makes any sense anyway, so don't start now on my account.
You still haven't accounted for the nine months of seemingly no activity.
over 400,000 in 9 months is pretty big activity but you keep forgetting that. The #1 rated MMO on this site - Eve has only 121,000 subs and it took it longer than 9 months to get that many
1. no conclusion will ever be reached, everyone is convinced they are right and won't change their mind, only time will tell how WoW fares. another 500 posts won't change that.
2. the idea of quality vs quantity is lost here, posting what would be entire chapters in books doesn't make you right, try boiling it all down and making one damn paragraph.
1. I concur. There is however conclusive evidence to support the assertions that WoW is the best selliing video game ever and that worldwide, subscriptions are at record highs in every geographical area. While i can't speak for the future of WoW, the past and the present are well documented. To dispute this is foolishness.
2. Quality versus Quantity.
Quality does not = quantity. However millions of people don't buy goods if they are poor quality. The Quantity of sales is a very good indicator of a products quality.
Quality does not = personal taste. Hagen Daas make quality ice cream, that you dislike Vanilla flavour or ice cream in general has no relevance to the subject of quality.
If you don't like PvP or Raiding, the artwork or anything else in WoW, that still does not in anyway imply that WoW is low quality. This is sloppy thinking.
.
I don't like Wow.
or....
I don't like WoW because blah blah and blah are reasonable opinions.
WoW is failing in subscriptions or is a low quality product are two unreasonable opinions.
this is where you have been wrong all the time. mcdonalds sells millions of hamburgers, but they are quite low quality. britney spears sold millions of copies, but it isnt a high quality music. 4 harry potter's movies are on the top ten most viewed movies, but they for sure are not even on the 100 top quality list. the da vinci code book sold millions of copies, yet it isnt half as good as many others that didnt sell even a fraction of it.
any relationship you want to make between sales and quality is stupid and wrong. you can not say any of this things:
1. it sold a lot, it must be good
2. it sold a lot, it must be bad
3. it didnt sell any good, it must be good
4. it didnt sell any good, it must be bad
all those 4 sentences are false, always.
Britney Spears, you think britney spears sells so good because of her voice? No, because of her looks, it has to do with status and much more. these are also things that don't count for WoW.
Harry potter movies may not be as good for people who don't like harry potter, but it really is a great movie for fans of the books, and it also has some sort of collection value.also, I can't remember Harry potter requires a monthly fee either.
can't comment on the Da vinci code. its a best seller, and I really enjoyed the book so...
WoW gamedesign wise is mediocre at best, but it's been agressively advertised and is based on an established franchise.
WoW gamedesign wise is mediocre at best, but it's been agressively advertised and is based on an established franchise.
Dungeons and Dragons also sold 300k copies. however the game has very few players left. because the people didn't know what the game was like before they bought it, its that simple. thats the same for enter the matrix.however WoW requires a monthly fee. people won't keep paying for a product they don't enjoy.
this is where you have been wrong all the time. mcdonalds sells millions of hamburgers, but they are quite low quality. britney spears sold millions of copies, but it isnt a high quality music. 4 harry potter's movies are on the top ten most viewed movies, but they for sure are not even on the 100 top quality list. the da vinci code book sold millions of copies, yet it isnt half as good as many others that didnt sell even a fraction of it.
any relationship you want to make between sales and quality is stupid and wrong. you can not say any of this things:
1. it sold a lot, it must be good
2. it sold a lot, it must be bad
3. it didnt sell any good, it must be good
4. it didnt sell any good, it must be bad
all those 4 sentences are false, always.
Its wrong to compare the game business to the music, movie and food business. Why mcdonalds sell so good? multpile reasons. kids love the food, its easy to reach as mcdonalds is everywhere, its pretty cheap and fast. all these factors don't count in WoW.
LOL. kids love it, easy to reach as it is everywhere, it is fast. we could even add huge marketing and advertising campaigns. what are we talking about? mcdonalds or wow?
Britney Spears, you think britney spears sells so good because of her voice? No, because of her looks, it has to do with status and much more. these are also things that don't count for WoW.
it sells so good because of her looks and status, not because of quality. man, are we talking about Britney or wow?
Harry potter movies may not be as good for people who don't like harry potter, but it really is a great movie for fans of the books, and it also has some sort of collection value.also, I can't remember Harry potter requires a monthly fee either.
it really is good for fans. fans of harry potter or warcraft?
can't comment on the Da vinci code. its a best seller, and I really enjoyed the book so...
yeah, its a bestseller and you enjoyed. are we still talking about wow?
i agree with apertotes and many other posters. sales got nothing in common with quality or lack of.
this is where you have been wrong all the time. mcdonalds sells millions of hamburgers, but they are quite low quality. britney spears sold millions of copies, but it isnt a high quality music. 4 harry potter's movies are on the top ten most viewed movies, but they for sure are not even on the 100 top quality list. the da vinci code book sold millions of copies, yet it isnt half as good as many others that didnt sell even a fraction of it.
any relationship you want to make between sales and quality is stupid and wrong. you can not say any of this things:
1. it sold a lot, it must be good
2. it sold a lot, it must be bad
3. it didnt sell any good, it must be good
4. it didnt sell any good, it must be bad
all those 4 sentences are false, always.
Its wrong to compare the game business to the music, movie and food business. Why mcdonalds sell so good? multpile reasons. kids love the food, its easy to reach as mcdonalds is everywhere, its pretty cheap and fast. all these factors don't count in WoW.
LOL. kids love it, easy to reach as it is everywhere, it is fast. we could even add huge marketing and advertising campaigns. what are we talking about? mcdonalds or wow?
Britney Spears, you think britney spears sells so good because of her voice? No, because of her looks, it has to do with status and much more. these are also things that don't count for WoW.
it sells so good because of her looks and status, not because of quality. man, are we talking about Britney or wow?
Harry potter movies may not be as good for people who don't like harry potter, but it really is a great movie for fans of the books, and it also has some sort of collection value.also, I can't remember Harry potter requires a monthly fee either.
it really is good for fans. fans of harry potter or warcraft?
can't comment on the Da vinci code. its a best seller, and I really enjoyed the book so...
yeah, its a bestseller and you enjoyed. are we still talking about wow?
i agree with apertotes and many other posters. sales got nothing in common with quality or lack of.
LOL!!!
2:20:27 PM ---> ssstupido perfectly hits Gameloading wreaking for 3500 brain damage
this is where you have been wrong all the time. mcdonalds sells millions of hamburgers, but they are quite low quality. britney spears sold millions of copies, but it isnt a high quality music. 4 harry potter's movies are on the top ten most viewed movies, but they for sure are not even on the 100 top quality list. the da vinci code book sold millions of copies, yet it isnt half as good as many others that didnt sell even a fraction of it.
any relationship you want to make between sales and quality is stupid and wrong. you can not say any of this things:
1. it sold a lot, it must be good
2. it sold a lot, it must be bad
3. it didnt sell any good, it must be good
4. it didnt sell any good, it must be bad
all those 4 sentences are false, always.
Its wrong to compare the game business to the music, movie and food business. Why mcdonalds sell so good? multpile reasons. kids love the food, its easy to reach as mcdonalds is everywhere, its pretty cheap and fast. all these factors don't count in WoW.
LOL. kids love it, easy to reach as it is everywhere, it is fast. we could even add huge marketing and advertising campaigns. what are we talking about? mcdonalds or wow?
Britney Spears, you think britney spears sells so good because of her voice? No, because of her looks, it has to do with status and much more. these are also things that don't count for WoW.
it sells so good because of her looks and status, not because of quality. man, are we talking about Britney or wow?
Harry potter movies may not be as good for people who don't like harry potter, but it really is a great movie for fans of the books, and it also has some sort of collection value.also, I can't remember Harry potter requires a monthly fee either.
it really is good for fans. fans of harry potter or warcraft?
can't comment on the Da vinci code. its a best seller, and I really enjoyed the book so...
yeah, its a bestseller and you enjoyed. are we still talking about wow?
i agree with apertotes and many other posters. sales got nothing in common with quality or lack of.
Was that sarcasm, or did you completely missed the point?