Originally posted by Greyhammer Both of your facts are out of context.
This site is quite a bit more focused on what makes a good MMORPG than the two sites you mentioned. After all, this is MMORPG.com. I don't care what GAMERS think makes a good MMORPG. I care what MMORPGers think makes a good MMORPG. And this site is the best focus group for that effort.
Nevermind that those reviews were written, what, three years ago by individuals at a gaming magazine, most of whom did not see nearly as much content as anybody who played the game for a year or more. They in no way reflect the views of the gaming population, or that of the MMORPG community specifically. Hell, I'd be surprised if any of the reviewers made it past level 40 in that game before writing up the review.
You are wrong yet again - 1st as the title states "WORLD OF WARCRAFT® ACHIEVES NEW MILESTONE WITH TWO MILLION PAYING SUBSCRIBERS WORLDWIDE". The key word here being WORLDWIDE! 2nd this was not BEFORE the China launch this was 1 week after the China launch. WOW launched in China on June 7th the release was on June 14th. How embarrasing for you.
No, actually, given that the release was 7 days after launch there, there is no way they could have accurate sales figures from that 1-week interval. I know you obviously know nothing about how businesses report sales totals, but anything said a week after something hits the shelf says nothing about the sales totals for a single week.
Son, you are so incredibly wrong here it is shameful. I as a publisher could this very second go onto Wal-Mart's Retail Link and see how many units of my product I sold just 90 minutes ago. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and just continue to embarras yourself.
I found them and many more on google. Strangely, this didn't take very long.
Gamespy, Gamespot and IGN all strike me as pretty serious and directly inline with your given criteria.
Sorry you can't find it on CGW, probably not a good idea to accuse me of poor research that being the case.
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Why you would even imagine that WoW achieved no critical acclaim is beyond me. Personally I think the biggest critical acclaim a game could ever get is being the worlds best selling video game ever. Only total wilfull and deliberate blindness is capable of leading you past this rather obvious and spontaneous appraisal from actual gamers all around the world, who even went so far as to pay to vote.
Originally posted by TreborLocke Pride7, I need to mention to you that subcribers don't mean that they are all active. A subscriber account can be innactive yet still a subscriber all the same. If you look at news reports. The last actual report on active subcribers came from Blizzard Entertainment Ltd. at about 1.5mil. Since then, they have only listed subcribers as accounts as opposed to accounts active. (Ovbiously quantitative data is the only way to get through to you) Actually thats not true, A subscriber means a person who is currently playing and paying for his account, not a person who created an account. as soon as your playtime runs out, you are no longer a subscriber of WoW. Blizzard fails to mention how many people they have on at a single time per server. Also, you have not given your qualitative pros and cons response yet. I'm still waiting for that lovely post which will contain your actual oppinion as opposed to the oppinions of others. Get out of your 10 year old "everything I think is what everyone else should think" attitude. Many people are disgusted by World of Warcraft now, especially those in the actual gaming community. Take a hint, a game could have all the good reviews it could get, however the game only got one major Game of the Year award and that was from Gamespot. ONLY ONE GOTY AWARD! Is it possible people are reviewing the game the way it should be reviewed? Oh my gosh! I have to defend Pride7 here. the WoW haters are trying just as hard as Pride7 is. and I have to say the most constructive posts, and the ones thar bring in most facts come from pride7. just because Pride7 is defending the game does not mean he is a "I think is what everyone else should think" type of guy. if anybody in this topic is that kind of guy, then its the WoW haters. So when you point at reviews to try and prove to us that you have evidence as to why WoW is the best game out there, just remember. It only won ONE game of the year award from an internet site out of several hundreds of magazines and internet sites out there that give out game of the year awards. (Link to awards source: http://www.blizzard.com/inblizz/awards.shtml) Ciao!
Of course they do. You have heard of computerised inventories I assume.
Big retailers all have online stock control, the till's are all smart. They know exactly how many of each unit is sold from where, to who (if you paid by credit card) and at what time (bar code readers). For chain stores this data relays to a central ordering office in real time which orders more.
Not the way it works with Saks corporation. Their inventory and sales reporting systems are seperate. From what I was told, this was because what you've got in the back isn't always an accurate reflection of what's moving on the shelf. The daily sales are kept under lock and key, because they frequently push the timeframe for processing daily totals.
But more than this is what happened in the UK. Since the UK reported a vast shortage of copies of WOW previous to the China launch, the idea that Blizzard had accurate sales reports even for a previous month seems extremely unlikely. Unless they totally revamped their accounting systems in that time.
It makes even more sense, when one notes their responses to certain developments. Back at the end of fall last year, they boldly asserted that there were no major server problems that they believed required new servers. This despite daily reports of massive server instability, which I had the displeasure of experiencing myself.
So no, I have no faith that Blizzard possibly would or could have reported accurate sales in a week from China, given that they have issues with places closer and easier to work with.
Not the way it works with Saks corporation. Their inventory and sales reporting systems are seperate. From what I was told, this was because what you've got in the back isn't always an accurate reflection of what's moving on the shelf. The daily sales are kept under lock and key, because they frequently push the timeframe for processing daily totals.
But more than this is what happened in the UK. Since the UK reported a vast shortage of copies of WOW previous to the China launch, the idea that Blizzard had accurate sales reports even for a previous month seems extremely unlikely. Unless they totally revamped their accounting systems in that time.
It makes even more sense, when one notes their responses to certain developments. Back at the end of fall last year, they boldly asserted that there were no major server problems that they believed required new servers. This despite daily reports of massive server instability, which I had the displeasure of experiencing myself.
So no, I have no faith that Blizzard possibly would or could have reported accurate sales in a week from China, given that they have issues with places closer and easier to work with.
The amount of data mining my local supermarket does on it's customers is legendary. They know what my favourite foods are, what times of the week and year I prefer them, which shops I have visited, what bargains I go for, and not just me, millions of others all personally profiled in real time.
Large distributors/publishers pay thousands of pounds a year to market research companies to keep them abridged of current trends. Just like Charts for Pop music and movies, they compile game charts based on the sales numbers given to them weekly by a selection of the biggest retail outlets. All game companies, not just Blizzard have access to and pay high attention to the game charts on a weekly if not daily basis.
This particular issue I won't argue with, but I would question if they can move on these figures before contacting VUG, or if they even move on it at all. Not to mention, they may have to sit on the numbers for months to note any actual trends in sales before making a decision.
Without being able to read Blizzard's minds, I believe there is evidence that they do just that: wait and see. When the Kaplan NYT interview hit, there was many weeks that it just wasn't a big deal. After that, when the furor over raid-only content had reached a fever pitch, Blizzard made tentative responses to try and repair the PR damage; there were assurances on the forums that raid content was not the only focus, just that they wanted to get it out there.
The problem here is, we know what they can do, but there's not a shread of evidence one way or the other of what they actually do. And I do not fully trust their public statements. If you wanted to ensure customer loyalty, you don't tell people, "Yeah, f*** non-raiders, we're doing this our way, the rest of you can burn in Hell."
Even if that's their stance, they'll lead folks along anyway, in hopes of more sales. I can't think of any company that hasn't tried it, at least some.
WoW is still a top ten seller on shelves in Europe. It may well have dropped from North America. Boxes on shelves is the key to major sales. When the box losses it's shop shelf presence, you should expect the subscription numbers to reflect this. consequently, the expansion pack this christmas is going to set it all off again. Even in North America. Expect a Blizzard of new sales records. You haven't seen anything yet.
WoW is still a top ten seller on shelves in Europe. It may well have dropped from North America. Boxes on shelves is the key to major sales. When the box losses it's shop shelf presence, you should expect the subscription numbers to reflect this. consequently, the expansion pack this christmas is going to set it all off again. Even in North America. Expect a Blizzard of new sales records. You haven't seen anything yet.
I agree. Burning Crusade will probably push NA subs to at least the 3 million mark for a while (maybe; it's all dependant on the marketing of the other newer MMOs, and maybe a few other factors), and that WOW will hit 8 million worldwide easily. I think. It could fall short of the mark, but unless Blizzard just totally doesn't advertise or somehow push this, they almost can't not sell BC.
I would wager that sales of the game itself (no subs) are tapering off. This is no nefarious thing; when I quit, I just gave up the game to someone else to use it, and I'm sure others do the same, or sell it to a gaming store to be put in the Used Games bin there (if one exists). Subs are the only thing I would trust, and my position is still that U.S. subs are down or unchanged, and likely to drop over the next few months until BC hits. Subs will spike up (I myself my resub to give it a whirl, if I can be sure not to run into the likes of Pride on my server), and if the game isn't really any better than before (i.e. more of the same), then the subs will start bleeding back down.
Another factor is the new MMOs coming up. WOW may not just collapse and die, but as interest in other games that appeal to specific people (PVPers, PVEers, soloists, etc.) grows, WOW will gradually loose a lot of it's enormous sales. I imagine that most of the major MMOs in the top ten this time next year could have very similar numbers of subscriptions, making any leads in the market slight. Probably healthier overall, though; competition will force companies to focus on the product, rather than the marketing. I'm all about people trying to make a better game to earn my disposable income.
Originally posted by Pride7 Originally posted by Eindrachen
You are wrong yet again - 1st as the title states "WORLD OF WARCRAFT® ACHIEVES NEW MILESTONE WITH TWO MILLION PAYING SUBSCRIBERS WORLDWIDE". The key word here being WORLDWIDE! 2nd this was not BEFORE the China launch this was 1 week after the China launch. WOW launched in China on June 7th the release was on June 14th. How embarrasing for you.
No, actually, given that the release was 7 days after launch there, there is no way they could have accurate sales figures from that 1-week interval. I know you obviously know nothing about how businesses report sales totals, but anything said a week after something hits the shelf says nothing about the sales totals for a single week.
Son, you are so incredibly wrong here it is shameful. I as a publisher could this very second go onto Wal-Mart's Retail Link and see how many units of my product I sold just 90 minutes ago. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and just continue to embarras yourself.
lol, Pride I think he's has enough. Should be pretty obvious to you by now. He can't really back up anything he's said. Because to put it as you did. It's simply all in his head. The mind is a powerful weapon, and that poor boy came to this thread unarmed.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Originally posted by Pride7 Son, you are so incredibly wrong here it is shameful. I as a publisher could this very second go onto Wal-Mart's Retail Link and see how many units of my product I sold just 90 minutes ago. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and just continue to embarras yourself.
Oh, yeah. You're a publisher. Hello, I'm John Smedley. Nice to meet you.
If SAKs corporation has a barcoded till, they know exactly how many they sold and at what time.
Retail shortages are not necessarily a function of poor communication or bad ordering.
For example X-BOX 360 shortages were also reported in the UK. Everybody knew they wouldn't have enough, knowing that you need more doesn't mean they are available.
Sales from China are very easy because they are all recorded online, when you login. Direct to Blizzards servers.
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Sales charts do not wait months. Kasey Casem on the Americas Top Ten, is giving you this weeks chart information. If he could do that in 1970, he can still do that today.
They do not get it from the piublishers like VUG, but from a sampling of retailers. Who they ring up and ask each week.
lol, Pride I think he's has enough. Should be pretty obvious to you by now. He can't really back up anything he's said. Because to put it as you did. It's simply all in his head. The mind is a powerful weapon, and that poor boy came to this thread unarmed.
Funny, I keep seeing folks talk about facts, and still not providing any for their own arguments.
But keep on chanting, "I disbelieve the illusion". One day, it will work.
I got some beachfront property in the west to sell you, too. Only used by a little old lady on Sundays. Real cheap.
You can't prove any of this, please stick to facts not your wild speculations. Show me 1 source that shows WOW had more North American subscribers before they launched in China than after, you can't all you can do is speculate and provide articles that talk about Worldwide Subscribers. The FACTS I am referring to come from hard data provided to shareholders. The FACTS you refer to only exist in your head.
Yeah, it's too bad you're own counterargument is based on lack of the same data.
I guess we all just make up what we want to in our heads, huh?
Sorry but the facts I present are publicly available in the Vivendi 2005 Annual Report. I have shown without a doubt that they had more North American subscribers after they launched in China. Unfortunately for you, you can't back up the statement that they had "far, far, far less North American Subscribers after they launched in China". Come on and show me proof, I gave you supporting documents and page numbers you gave me articles that only further supported my stance.
Again you are talking out of your a** show me one report or press release that shows they had 2 million subs in North America BEFORE they launched in China. They didn't, only now do they have close to 2 million (per MMOGCHART.com), the only North America subscriber number mentioned before their China launch I found was the 600,000 number. You keep making up facts as you go along but realize those are only valid data points in your head.
You still have no facts to back up your own statements, either. I at least cited some sources. Are you just incapable or unwilling to do the same?
I am talking about Vivendi's 2005 annual report, try to actually read it this time. Here are the facts from their report with page numbers - Again, these are FACTS try not to let that big word scare you:
Page 19
January 2005 - WOW breaks all previous North America records with over 600,000 active accounts in North America, Australia, South Korea, and New Zealand.
Actually, that was page 18. Page 19 has the rest of the normal press release stuff. It was page 19 but then again I shouldn't be surprised that you are confused. So, in January, it was 600,000, and in September it has the August info. I never argued about January. I'm just curious what happened in the following part of the year. Something you seem to keep avoiding.
What you were arguing is that WOW had more North American subscribers before they launched in China. The facts are they had more in North America AFTER they launched in China. It says so right in their annual report, perhaps reading comprehension isn't your strongest skill? What you were arguing is that WOW had more North American subscribers before they launched in China. The facts are they had more in North America AFTER they launched in China. It says so right in their annual report, perhaps reading comprehension isn't your strongest skill?
Yeah, it's too bad you're own counterargument is based on lack of the same data.
I guess we all just make up what we want to in our heads, huh?
Sorry but the facts I present are publicly available in the Vivendi 2005 Annual Report. I have shown without a doubt that they had more North American subscribers after they launched in China. Unfortunately for you, you can't back up the statement that they had "far, far, far less North American Subscribers after they launched in China". Come on and show me proof, I gave you supporting documents and page numbers you gave me articles that only further supported my stance.
Again you are talking out of your a** show me one report or press release that shows they had 2 million subs in North America BEFORE they launched in China. They didn't, only now do they have close to 2 million (per MMOGCHART.com), the only North America subscriber number mentioned before their China launch I found was the 600,000 number. You keep making up facts as you go along but realize those are only valid data points in your head.
You still have no facts to back up your own statements, either. I at least cited some sources. Are you just incapable or unwilling to do the same?
I am talking about Vivendi's 2005 annual report, try to actually read it this time. Here are the facts from their report with page numbers - Again, these are FACTS try not to let that big word scare you:
Page 19
January 2005 - WOW breaks all previous North America records with over 600,000 active accounts in North America, Australia, South Korea, and New Zealand.
Actually, that was page 18. Page 19 has the rest of the normal press release stuff. It was page 19 but then again I shouldn't be surprised that you are confused. So, in January, it was 600,000, and in September it has the August info. I never argued about January. I'm just curious what happened in the following part of the year. Something you seem to keep avoiding.
What you were arguing is that WOW had more North American subscribers before they launched in China. The facts are they had more in North America AFTER they launched in China. It says so right in their annual report, perhaps reading comprehension isn't your strongest skill? What you were arguing is that WOW had more North American subscribers before they launched in China. The facts are they had more in North America AFTER they launched in China. It says so right in their annual report, perhaps reading comprehension isn't your strongest skill?
You still have no facts to back up your own statements, either. I at least cited some sources. Are you just incapable or unwilling to do the same?
I am talking about Vivendi's 2005 annual report, try to actually read it this time. Here are the facts from their report with page numbers - Again, these are FACTS try not to let that big word scare you:
Page 19
January 2005 - WOW breaks all previous North America records with over 600,000 active accounts in North America, Australia, South Korea, and New Zealand.
Actually, that was page 18. Page 19 has the rest of the normal press release stuff. It was page 19 but then again I shouldn't be surprised that you are confused. So, in January, it was 600,000, and in September it has the August info. I never argued about January. I'm just curious what happened in the following part of the year. Something you seem to keep avoiding.
What you were arguing is that WOW had more North American subscribers before they launched in China. The facts are they had more in North America AFTER they launched in China. It says so right in their annual report, perhaps reading comprehension isn't your strongest skill? What you were arguing is that WOW had more North American subscribers before they launched in China. The facts are they had more in North America AFTER they launched in China. It says so right in their annual report, perhaps reading comprehension isn't your strongest skill?
Page 20
June 2005 - Blizzard's WOW is successfully launched in China
September 2005 - WOW exceed's 4 million subscribers, with 1 million paying users in North America and more than 1.5 million in China.
No need for an apology I already know you are sorry
You still haven't explained where all the players went. You're actually telling me that from January to September, for about 9 months, there was no more than 400,000 extra subscribers? Even while millions were being added everywhere else?
Now this tells me how little you actually know of the North American MMO market. If they only had the 400,000 subscribers they picked up from January to September that would still make them one of the top, if not the top MMO in North America. Everquest peaked at 460k subscribers, Eve has a whole 130,000 subscribers. So yes, it is very realistic to believe they picked up another 400,000. Seriously do some research before you speak.
It is obvious you have no idea how North American Retail works or how big the North American MMO market is. That is ok, hopefully you have learned something from all of this and will do some research before talking out of your a**.
Originally posted by TreborLocke Pride7, I need to mention to you that subcribers don't mean that they are all active. A subscriber account can be innactive yet still a subscriber all the same. If you look at news reports. The last actual report on active subcribers came from Blizzard Entertainment Ltd. at about 1.5mil. Since then, they have only listed subcribers as accounts as opposed to accounts active. (Ovbiously quantitative data is the only way to get through to you) Blizzard fails to mention how many people they have on at a single time per server. Also, you have not given your qualitative pros and cons response yet. I'm still waiting for that lovely post which will contain your actual oppinion as opposed to the oppinions of others. Get out of your 10 year old "everything I think is what everyone else should think" attitude. Many people are disgusted by World of Warcraft now, especially those in the actual gaming community. Take a hint, a game could have all the good reviews it could get, however the game only got one major Game of the Year award and that was from Gamespot. ONLY ONE GOTY AWARD! Is it possible people are reviewing the game the way it should be reviewed? Oh my gosh! So when you point at reviews to try and prove to us that you have evidence as to why WoW is the best game out there, just remember. It only won ONE game of the year award from an internet site out of several hundreds of magazines and internet sites out there that give out game of the year awards. (Link to awards source: http://www.blizzard.com/inblizz/awards.shtml) Ciao!
Edit: Made a few typos
Trebor -
Until you provide facts to support your bogus claim that "WOW has far, far, far more North American subscribers before they launched in China" you are in time out. Sorry to be so harsh but you have to have data to play with the big boys. Bye, bye.
Originally posted by Eindrachen Originally posted by Pride7 Son, you are so incredibly wrong here it is shameful. I as a publisher could this very second go onto Wal-Mart's Retail Link and see how many units of my product I sold just 90 minutes ago. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and just continue to embarras yourself.
Oh, yeah. You're a publisher. Hello, I'm John Smedley. Nice to meet you.
I was speaking as if I were a publisher. Although I will admit I do work for a very large publisher and have even published my own title Pocket Rockets Pro which was a finalist for a Pocket PC Magazine's Game of the Year award.
After a quick 5 minutes on Google, I concur with Prides' assesment. at 1.5 million North American subscribers, Blizzard has never had more.
It isn't shrinking at all, it's still growing. (Stable at the very least). I haven't seen any reports of their ever being more than 1.5 million playing in North America. Always continues to amaze me this game.
If SAKs corporation has a barcoded till, they know exactly how many they sold and at what time.
They use a mainframe and daily batch production for daily sales totals. Printed on actual rolls of paper cut to letter-size in the printer. They have more automation than a few years ago, but they still don't know sales for a day until at least a day afterwards.
You don't have to believe it, but I got one of the guys who worked there working with me now, so, yeah.
Shortages are not necessarily a function of poor communication or bad ordering.
For example X-BOX 360 shortages were also reported in the UK. Everybody knew they wouldn't have enough, knowing that you need more doesn't mean they are available.
Agreed, but your example isn't always true, either. Some games and hardware have had shortages out of plain ignorance of the actual sales as opposed to the predicted sales.
I'm not saying you're not right, just that without any factual evidence one way or the other, I look at many incidents of Blizzard's behavior in response to certain things to get a better picture of what's going on. Just on what I see, I'm not at all confident that they are accurately tracking or reporting sales of any kind. At least not a year ago.
Sales from China are very easy because they are all recorded online, when you login. Direct to Blizzards servers.
Well, the China sales aren't exactly what it is that I'm focused on, so much as the NA sales. How they report that is of great interest to me.
And there's still no clear indication they actually care about those numbers until after a few months' worth of sales to react to anything. It'd be like people getting back into school, and subs go down, and them panicking about that. There's certain short-term trends that would affect sales no matter what they did or didn't do.
But the longer-term is of interest to me. If what I'm seeing is correct, WOW has had either negligible or negative growth in the past year in NA. That, or Blizzard's definitely got to do a better job of reporting their subs.
Originally posted by Eindrachen Originally posted by Pride7 Son, you are so incredibly wrong here it is shameful. I as a publisher could this very second go onto Wal-Mart's Retail Link and see how many units of my product I sold just 90 minutes ago. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and just continue to embarras yourself.
Oh, yeah. You're a publisher. Hello, I'm John Smedley. Nice to meet you.
Also, if you don't believe me do a search on Wal-Mart Retail Link it will be a good education for you as you have no clue.
Originally posted by Eindrachen But the longer-term is of interest to me. If what I'm seeing is correct, WOW has had either negligible or negative growth in the past year in NA. That, or Blizzard's definitely got to do a better job of reporting their subs.
If you think over 400,000 North American Subscribers in negligible you should better educate yourself on the North American MMO market. 400,000 total subscribers would be a home run for any other MMO.
If they can get 1 day old figures, they can get 7 day old figures. SAKS dosen't sound like a very big outlet.
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Sales charts are not rocket science. This is not some new concept that didn't exist last year.
The method of compiling game sales is identical to the method of compiling music and DVD sales.
The world has been doing this weekly for 30 years now. They can do it for any high street product.
Blizzard has the added advantage of knowing when people login or create their accounts with personalised and unique CD keys.
This company really does have all that data. All companies (and all customers) have access to reliable sales charts, Blizzard has even more data than this available to it.
Originally posted by Pride7 Originally posted by Greyhammer FACT:
WoW is not on the MMORPG.com top 7 list as of 18 June 2006, at 4:12 PST.
FACT:
The prior FACT is the context for this thread.
Why the bitterness, WoW defenders? It just oozes from your posts.
FACT: WOW is the #1 MMO on Gamespot.com, one of the largest gaming sites, with a 9.2 rating after 26,742 votes (compared to the 6k on MMO).
FACT: WOW is the #1 MMO on GameRankings.com, a site that compiles all the industry reviews of any given title, with a 91%.
No one is bitter that WOW isn't doing well on this site, the defenders just want to make sure it is clear that this site is a very small sampling of the MMO industry.
FACT: I disagree with Gamespot's review of WoW and all the review sites that are compiled on GameRankings.com.
FACT: That's all that matter's to me.
FACT: I'm not going to consider a game good just because game sites say it is.
Originally posted by baff I found them and many more on google. Strangely, this didn't take very long. Gamespy, Gamespot and IGN all strike me as pretty serious and directly inline with your given criteria. Sorry you can't find it on CGW, probably not a good idea to accuse me of poor research that being the case. . Why you would even imagine that WoW achieved no critical acclaim is beyond me. Personally I think the biggest critical acclaim a game could ever get is being the worlds best selling video game ever. Only total wilfull and deliberate blindness is capable of leading you past this rather obvious and spontaneous appraisal from actual gamers all around the world, who even went so far as to pay to vote.
Game of the year. Say it again! Game of the year!
Gamespy DID NOT GIVE WOW THE OVERALL GAME OF THE YEAR OF THE AWARD! Get that through your head. IT is listed no where that they got game of the year.
This list of awards comes from the BLIZZARD LTD. website. The IGN RPG Vault was only for RPGs, so they said WoW was the best RPG of the year, but they never said it was the best game of the year.
You did catch me on the CGW GOTY however, THATS IT!
Only two major publishers have given WoW an overall game of the year award in this case.
Half-life 2 was released the same year WoW was. Here is the score.
WoW: 2 Game of the year awards from major publishers
Half-Life 2: 35 Game of the Year Awards from Major Publishers
Just the facts. I deliver them. You can whine and cry all you want.
(1997) UO --> EQ -> Runescape -> DAoC -> WoW -> EVE + WAR (2008)
Originally posted by Pride7 I was speaking as if I were a publisher.
So, in fact, you are not a publisher.
Gee. I was just so sure you were. Imagine that.
Although I will admit I do work for a very large publisher and have even published my own title Pocket Rockets Pro which was a finalist for a Pocket PC Magazine's Game of the Year award.
Never heard of the game, or the mag. Don't think any retailer I can think of, from the gaming stores to Wal-Mart, carries it. I mean, I guess it's popular to some folks out there. Just nobody that I know of in this geographic area.
Look, if you don't want to provide something to counter my arguments, just say so. I didn't expect you to whip out Blizzard's monthly sales for 2004 and 2005 out of nowhere to beat me about the head and shoulders with, just as I didn't expect you to concede that a rating is just something some guy in a magazine wrote based on his or her personal opinions of a game.
The numbers are ambivalent at best, and I believe Blizzard left them that way on purpose. Note there is no figure for NA subs since, what, the end of last year? And I had thought they'd be all over the spike in Christmas sales and subs of the game, but no, there's nothing there.
Why? If they have any confidence or pride in the sales/subs of the game, why not even a brief and very rounded-off tally for NA subs with every press release? Or at least for the major ones?
I still maintain that as best as the figures can possibly show, and with the very little facts Blizzard has given, they have just plain stopped growing in numbers here. I'm not saying that out of hate; I encourage folks to try WOW all the time, for at least levels 1-59. I'm saying it because it's the best I can figure with the knowledge I've been given.
So please, if you insist on saying I'm wrong, provide something actually saying it, other than your personal interpretation of the data, which lacks the same facts you accuse me of lacking in my own arguments.
The numbers are ambivalent at best, and I believe Blizzard left them that way on purpose. Note there is no figure for NA subs since, what, the end of last year? And I had thought they'd be all over the spike in Christmas sales and subs of the game, but no, there's nothing there.
So please, if you insist on saying I'm wrong, provide something actually saying it, other than your personal interpretation of the data, which lacks the same facts you accuse me of lacking in my own arguments
If you look back earlier in this thread you will see I have linked to the Vivendi stock holders report and give you the exact page showing the current subscribers (2nd quarter) and their geographical breakdown.
It's already all been provided for you. All you have to do is take the time to read it.
(It is illegal for Blizzard to misrepresent these figures).
If they can get 1 day old figures, they can get 7 day old figures. SAKS dosen't sound like a very big outlet.
It was, though recent events see it chopping down it's size. But they at one time were handling 7 store branches under the parent company. Which probably contributed to the decline: they kept buying up things, and ramming different systems through the original one. They did also have a large share of stock in IBM, and had a tendency to gain IBM equipment faster and easier than other companies.
They weren't a well-known parent company, but I assure you, they were, and are, a fairly large corporation. Their sales practices are said to be fairly standard among the major parent companies out there, but since I've had limited exposure to such companies, I can't say for sure.
It may be that the way a parent company and an individual branch of that company tallies and reports sales are slightly different. Blizzard only has to worry about it's own sales; VU has to worry about a lot more. But I'm not sure who exactly authorizes the release of these numbers, Blizzard or VU. I had operated on the assumption that VU has to authorize it, because they have certain legal obligations on how they report such data.
Or not. But again, I'm not very confident that Blizzard can manage it's own people, much less sales figures, based on their manner of handling other issues.
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Sales charts are not rocket science. This is not some new concept that didn't exist last year.
The method of compiling game sales is identical to the method of compiling music and DVD sales.
The world has been doing this weekly for 30 years now. They can do it for any high street product.
Blizzard has the added advantage of knowing when people login or create their accounts with personalised and unique CD keys.
This company really does have all that data. All companies (and all customers) have access to reliable sales charts, Blizzard has even more data than this available to it.
I'm not saying they don't have access to it, but I question A) the timing of their reports ("Even though last month showed a decline in subs, this months shows a rise back to what they were, so let's say nothing actually happened overall.") and the amount of data given (i.e. the move from reporting NA subs along with other areas, to just reporting worldwide subs).
As far as I have seen, most companies do not hesitate to publish successes, and to keep quiet about failures. Blizzard hasn't had much to say about their NA subs for a long time, and have otherwise demonstrated a willingness to not respond or ignore other, more pertinent issues (like server stability).
Anyone who believes that a company releases any facts or statements that don't put it's products in a positive light is just being foolish. But a savvy consumer researches before and after the statement, learns to read between the lines to see what is or isn't being said, and try to fill in the gaps as best they can.
If some new knowledge comes along that disproves outright anything I said (rather than using a lack of facts pro or con to my argument to point out anything one way or the other), I'll gladly concede that those new facts are correct, and that my earlier estimation was in error.
Until then, I haven't seen a lot of convincing reason why I'm wrong.
Comments
Nevermind that those reviews were written, what, three years ago by individuals at a gaming magazine, most of whom did not see nearly as much content as anybody who played the game for a year or more. They in no way reflect the views of the gaming population, or that of the MMORPG community specifically. Hell, I'd be surprised if any of the reviewers made it past level 40 in that game before writing up the review.
Oh please. The worlds fastest and best selling game ever has no GOTY's? Next you'll be telling me it was poorely recieved by gamers worldwide.
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Actiontrip GOTY
RPG Vault GOTY
Gamespot GOTY
Gamespy GOTY
Computer gaming world GOTY
Blizzard has long track record of GOTY titles.
Actiontrip (Not very major and credible)
RPG Vault (Run through IGN which is specifically for RPGs not the industry in general)
Gamespot (The only legit GOTY)
Gamespy (Where did you find this? It's not listed. They got an editors choice award, best PC game, top 10 games of the year, but no GOTY award)
CGW (Not even listed on their site. Take a look at it please.)
Please do research before you look stupid.
(1997) UO --> EQ -> Runescape -> DAoC -> WoW -> EVE + WAR (2008)
I found them and many more on google. Strangely, this didn't take very long.
Gamespy, Gamespot and IGN all strike me as pretty serious and directly inline with your given criteria.
Sorry you can't find it on CGW, probably not a good idea to accuse me of poor research that being the case.
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Why you would even imagine that WoW achieved no critical acclaim is beyond me. Personally I think the biggest critical acclaim a game could ever get is being the worlds best selling video game ever. Only total wilfull and deliberate blindness is capable of leading you past this rather obvious and spontaneous appraisal from actual gamers all around the world, who even went so far as to pay to vote.
Not the way it works with Saks corporation. Their inventory and sales reporting systems are seperate. From what I was told, this was because what you've got in the back isn't always an accurate reflection of what's moving on the shelf. The daily sales are kept under lock and key, because they frequently push the timeframe for processing daily totals.
But more than this is what happened in the UK. Since the UK reported a vast shortage of copies of WOW previous to the China launch, the idea that Blizzard had accurate sales reports even for a previous month seems extremely unlikely. Unless they totally revamped their accounting systems in that time.
It makes even more sense, when one notes their responses to certain developments. Back at the end of fall last year, they boldly asserted that there were no major server problems that they believed required new servers. This despite daily reports of massive server instability, which I had the displeasure of experiencing myself.
So no, I have no faith that Blizzard possibly would or could have reported accurate sales in a week from China, given that they have issues with places closer and easier to work with.
This particular issue I won't argue with, but I would question if they can move on these figures before contacting VUG, or if they even move on it at all. Not to mention, they may have to sit on the numbers for months to note any actual trends in sales before making a decision.
Without being able to read Blizzard's minds, I believe there is evidence that they do just that: wait and see. When the Kaplan NYT interview hit, there was many weeks that it just wasn't a big deal. After that, when the furor over raid-only content had reached a fever pitch, Blizzard made tentative responses to try and repair the PR damage; there were assurances on the forums that raid content was not the only focus, just that they wanted to get it out there.
The problem here is, we know what they can do, but there's not a shread of evidence one way or the other of what they actually do. And I do not fully trust their public statements. If you wanted to ensure customer loyalty, you don't tell people, "Yeah, f*** non-raiders, we're doing this our way, the rest of you can burn in Hell."
Even if that's their stance, they'll lead folks along anyway, in hopes of more sales. I can't think of any company that hasn't tried it, at least some.
I agree. Burning Crusade will probably push NA subs to at least the 3 million mark for a while (maybe; it's all dependant on the marketing of the other newer MMOs, and maybe a few other factors), and that WOW will hit 8 million worldwide easily. I think. It could fall short of the mark, but unless Blizzard just totally doesn't advertise or somehow push this, they almost can't not sell BC.
I would wager that sales of the game itself (no subs) are tapering off. This is no nefarious thing; when I quit, I just gave up the game to someone else to use it, and I'm sure others do the same, or sell it to a gaming store to be put in the Used Games bin there (if one exists). Subs are the only thing I would trust, and my position is still that U.S. subs are down or unchanged, and likely to drop over the next few months until BC hits. Subs will spike up (I myself my resub to give it a whirl, if I can be sure not to run into the likes of Pride on my server), and if the game isn't really any better than before (i.e. more of the same), then the subs will start bleeding back down.
Another factor is the new MMOs coming up. WOW may not just collapse and die, but as interest in other games that appeal to specific people (PVPers, PVEers, soloists, etc.) grows, WOW will gradually loose a lot of it's enormous sales. I imagine that most of the major MMOs in the top ten this time next year could have very similar numbers of subscriptions, making any leads in the market slight. Probably healthier overall, though; competition will force companies to focus on the product, rather than the marketing. I'm all about people trying to make a better game to earn my disposable income.
No, actually, given that the release was 7 days after launch there, there is no way they could have accurate sales figures from that 1-week interval. I know you obviously know nothing about how businesses report sales totals, but anything said a week after something hits the shelf says nothing about the sales totals for a single week.
Son, you are so incredibly wrong here it is shameful. I as a publisher could this very second go onto Wal-Mart's Retail Link and see how many units of my product I sold just 90 minutes ago. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and just continue to embarras yourself.
lol, Pride I think he's has enough. Should be pretty obvious to you by now. He can't really back up anything he's said. Because to put it as you did. It's simply all in his head. The mind is a powerful weapon, and that poor boy came to this thread unarmed.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Oh, yeah. You're a publisher. Hello, I'm John Smedley. Nice to meet you.
If SAKs corporation has a barcoded till, they know exactly how many they sold and at what time.
Retail shortages are not necessarily a function of poor communication or bad ordering.
For example X-BOX 360 shortages were also reported in the UK. Everybody knew they wouldn't have enough, knowing that you need more doesn't mean they are available.
Sales from China are very easy because they are all recorded online, when you login. Direct to Blizzards servers.
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Sales charts do not wait months. Kasey Casem on the Americas Top Ten, is giving you this weeks chart information. If he could do that in 1970, he can still do that today.
They do not get it from the piublishers like VUG, but from a sampling of retailers. Who they ring up and ask each week.
Funny, I keep seeing folks talk about facts, and still not providing any for their own arguments.
But keep on chanting, "I disbelieve the illusion". One day, it will work.
I got some beachfront property in the west to sell you, too. Only used by a little old lady on Sundays. Real cheap.
Page 20
June 2005 - Blizzard's WOW is successfully launched in China
September 2005 - WOW exceed's 4 million subscribers, with 1 million paying users in North America and more than 1.5 million in China.
No need for an apology I already know you are sorry
You still haven't explained where all the players went. You're actually telling me that from January to September, for about 9 months, there was no more than 400,000 extra subscribers? Even while millions were being added everywhere else?
Now this tells me how little you actually know of the North American MMO market. If they only had the 400,000 subscribers they picked up from January to September that would still make them one of the top, if not the top MMO in North America. Everquest peaked at 460k subscribers, Eve has a whole 130,000 subscribers. So yes, it is very realistic to believe they picked up another 400,000. Seriously do some research before you speak.
It is obvious you have no idea how North American Retail works or how big the North American MMO market is. That is ok, hopefully you have learned something from all of this and will do some research before talking out of your a**.
Trebor -
Until you provide facts to support your bogus claim that "WOW has far, far, far more North American subscribers before they launched in China" you are in time out. Sorry to be so harsh but you have to have data to play with the big boys. Bye, bye.
Pride
Oh, yeah. You're a publisher. Hello, I'm John Smedley. Nice to meet you.
I was speaking as if I were a publisher. Although I will admit I do work for a very large publisher and have even published my own title Pocket Rockets Pro which was a finalist for a Pocket PC Magazine's Game of the Year award.
After a quick 5 minutes on Google, I concur with Prides' assesment. at 1.5 million North American subscribers, Blizzard has never had more.
It isn't shrinking at all, it's still growing. (Stable at the very least). I haven't seen any reports of their ever being more than 1.5 million playing in North America. Always continues to amaze me this game.
They use a mainframe and daily batch production for daily sales totals. Printed on actual rolls of paper cut to letter-size in the printer. They have more automation than a few years ago, but they still don't know sales for a day until at least a day afterwards.
You don't have to believe it, but I got one of the guys who worked there working with me now, so, yeah.
Agreed, but your example isn't always true, either. Some games and hardware have had shortages out of plain ignorance of the actual sales as opposed to the predicted sales.
I'm not saying you're not right, just that without any factual evidence one way or the other, I look at many incidents of Blizzard's behavior in response to certain things to get a better picture of what's going on. Just on what I see, I'm not at all confident that they are accurately tracking or reporting sales of any kind. At least not a year ago.
Well, the China sales aren't exactly what it is that I'm focused on, so much as the NA sales. How they report that is of great interest to me.
And there's still no clear indication they actually care about those numbers until after a few months' worth of sales to react to anything. It'd be like people getting back into school, and subs go down, and them panicking about that. There's certain short-term trends that would affect sales no matter what they did or didn't do.
But the longer-term is of interest to me. If what I'm seeing is correct, WOW has had either negligible or negative growth in the past year in NA. That, or Blizzard's definitely got to do a better job of reporting their subs.
Oh, yeah. You're a publisher. Hello, I'm John Smedley. Nice to meet you.
Also, if you don't believe me do a search on Wal-Mart Retail Link it will be a good education for you as you have no clue.
If they can get 1 day old figures, they can get 7 day old figures. SAKS dosen't sound like a very big outlet.
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Sales charts are not rocket science. This is not some new concept that didn't exist last year.
The method of compiling game sales is identical to the method of compiling music and DVD sales.
The world has been doing this weekly for 30 years now. They can do it for any high street product.
Blizzard has the added advantage of knowing when people login or create their accounts with personalised and unique CD keys.
This company really does have all that data. All companies (and all customers) have access to reliable sales charts, Blizzard has even more data than this available to it.
FACT: WOW is the #1 MMO on Gamespot.com, one of the largest gaming sites, with a 9.2 rating after 26,742 votes (compared to the 6k on MMO).
FACT: WOW is the #1 MMO on GameRankings.com, a site that compiles all the industry reviews of any given title, with a 91%.
No one is bitter that WOW isn't doing well on this site, the defenders just want to make sure it is clear that this site is a very small sampling of the MMO industry.
FACT: I disagree with Gamespot's review of WoW and all the review sites that are compiled on GameRankings.com.
FACT: That's all that matter's to me.
FACT: I'm not going to consider a game good just because game sites say it is.
Game of the year. Say it again! Game of the year!
Gamespy DID NOT GIVE WOW THE OVERALL GAME OF THE YEAR OF THE AWARD! Get that through your head. IT is listed no where that they got game of the year.
This list of awards comes from the BLIZZARD LTD. website. The IGN RPG Vault was only for RPGs, so they said WoW was the best RPG of the year, but they never said it was the best game of the year.
You did catch me on the CGW GOTY however, THATS IT!
Only two major publishers have given WoW an overall game of the year award in this case.
Half-life 2 was released the same year WoW was. Here is the score.
WoW: 2 Game of the year awards from major publishers
Half-Life 2: 35 Game of the Year Awards from Major Publishers
Just the facts. I deliver them. You can whine and cry all you want.
(1997) UO --> EQ -> Runescape -> DAoC -> WoW -> EVE + WAR (2008)
So, in fact, you are not a publisher.
Gee. I was just so sure you were. Imagine that.
Never heard of the game, or the mag. Don't think any retailer I can think of, from the gaming stores to Wal-Mart, carries it. I mean, I guess it's popular to some folks out there. Just nobody that I know of in this geographic area.
Look, if you don't want to provide something to counter my arguments, just say so. I didn't expect you to whip out Blizzard's monthly sales for 2004 and 2005 out of nowhere to beat me about the head and shoulders with, just as I didn't expect you to concede that a rating is just something some guy in a magazine wrote based on his or her personal opinions of a game.
The numbers are ambivalent at best, and I believe Blizzard left them that way on purpose. Note there is no figure for NA subs since, what, the end of last year? And I had thought they'd be all over the spike in Christmas sales and subs of the game, but no, there's nothing there.
Why? If they have any confidence or pride in the sales/subs of the game, why not even a brief and very rounded-off tally for NA subs with every press release? Or at least for the major ones?
I still maintain that as best as the figures can possibly show, and with the very little facts Blizzard has given, they have just plain stopped growing in numbers here. I'm not saying that out of hate; I encourage folks to try WOW all the time, for at least levels 1-59. I'm saying it because it's the best I can figure with the knowledge I've been given.
So please, if you insist on saying I'm wrong, provide something actually saying it, other than your personal interpretation of the data, which lacks the same facts you accuse me of lacking in my own arguments.
Can you show many any other MMORPG that has got any GOTY? Even one?
Let alone all these other awards. http://www.earth365.com/buy-wow-gold/introduction/awards.htm
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Wow is ground breaking. Critically acclaimed, best selling. A gaming phenomenom.
The numbers are ambivalent at best, and I believe Blizzard left them that way on purpose. Note there is no figure for NA subs since, what, the end of last year? And I had thought they'd be all over the spike in Christmas sales and subs of the game, but no, there's nothing there.
So please, if you insist on saying I'm wrong, provide something actually saying it, other than your personal interpretation of the data, which lacks the same facts you accuse me of lacking in my own arguments
If you look back earlier in this thread you will see I have linked to the Vivendi stock holders report and give you the exact page showing the current subscribers (2nd quarter) and their geographical breakdown.
It's already all been provided for you. All you have to do is take the time to read it.
(It is illegal for Blizzard to misrepresent these figures).
It was, though recent events see it chopping down it's size. But they at one time were handling 7 store branches under the parent company. Which probably contributed to the decline: they kept buying up things, and ramming different systems through the original one. They did also have a large share of stock in IBM, and had a tendency to gain IBM equipment faster and easier than other companies.
They weren't a well-known parent company, but I assure you, they were, and are, a fairly large corporation. Their sales practices are said to be fairly standard among the major parent companies out there, but since I've had limited exposure to such companies, I can't say for sure.
It may be that the way a parent company and an individual branch of that company tallies and reports sales are slightly different. Blizzard only has to worry about it's own sales; VU has to worry about a lot more. But I'm not sure who exactly authorizes the release of these numbers, Blizzard or VU. I had operated on the assumption that VU has to authorize it, because they have certain legal obligations on how they report such data.
Or not. But again, I'm not very confident that Blizzard can manage it's own people, much less sales figures, based on their manner of handling other issues.
I'm not saying they don't have access to it, but I question A) the timing of their reports ("Even though last month showed a decline in subs, this months shows a rise back to what they were, so let's say nothing actually happened overall.") and
the amount of data given (i.e. the move from reporting NA subs along with other areas, to just reporting worldwide subs).
As far as I have seen, most companies do not hesitate to publish successes, and to keep quiet about failures. Blizzard hasn't had much to say about their NA subs for a long time, and have otherwise demonstrated a willingness to not respond or ignore other, more pertinent issues (like server stability).
Anyone who believes that a company releases any facts or statements that don't put it's products in a positive light is just being foolish. But a savvy consumer researches before and after the statement, learns to read between the lines to see what is or isn't being said, and try to fill in the gaps as best they can.
If some new knowledge comes along that disproves outright anything I said (rather than using a lack of facts pro or con to my argument to point out anything one way or the other), I'll gladly concede that those new facts are correct, and that my earlier estimation was in error.
Until then, I haven't seen a lot of convincing reason why I'm wrong.
Just insults from the likes of Pride...