Must hurt to have the facts against your subjective argument. You say what's good is subjective then cry when I list facts. I could tell you what I found fun about the game but I am bright enough to realize what I found fun may not be fun to you - as that is SUBJECTIVE. What isn't subjective are FACTS, please try to understand that as I grow tired of educating you people.
I don't recall crying. Just stating the facts are meaningless in recognition of value. You still have yet to use any logic at all in refuting a thing I said. You just keep saying, "Oh, well, the facts say this about the game..."
You aren't educating anyone. We knew what the "facts" were before you typed anything out. But it didn't change the fact that a growing number of people are finding WOW less than what the facts would supposedly indicate.
If you don't want to face the facts that some of us don't like WOW for reasons that you simply can't argue with, because they are about what we individually seek in a game, don't get upset with us. That's your problem.
You poor misguided soul. If you don't think a review can be qualitative I really don't know how to help you other than suggest you educate yourself a bit further and then come back. Here is a simple question that should help you along - When Ebert gives a movie a thumbs up or thumbs down is that qualitative or quantitative?
Quantitative. "Thumbs up" and "thumbs down" are just like binary 1 and 0. They do not describe any sort of quality about a movie other than the general assessment that a person finds it good or bad. It's like saying dinner at someone's house was "bad". Why? The food? The conversation between guests? Your medical condition when going to dinner, or afterwards? What made it "bad"?
It is almost laughable how these people pathetically ask what I liked about the game as to try to discredit what I found enjoyable.
Actually, it's because you assert that numbers mean the game is "good". That's false. That's quantity, not quality.
What about WOW specifically makes it fun for you to play? What mechanics do you find about it that make it more enjoyable than any other MMO you have ever played?
This is all they have as they have no other data points to back up their ignorant statements. The facts are undisputable, however they continue to make ridiculus statements like "they are losing subscribers now because all the casuals now have 60s" without any evidence.
Sadly, you also have no hard evidence they aren't, since no facts about that sort of thing are actually available to you. Kettle, meet pot.
However, we can make reasonable speculations about how WOW is doing. If it had 6.6 million at last count, and 4 million in China at last count, that leaves only 2.6 million for the rest of the world. If we were to guess around only 1 million subscribers everywhere else but the U.S., that leaves only 1.6 million here. Which is far, far, far less than before it opened in China.
The hard evidence you seem to want us to provide to support out statements is no more present than evidence to the contrary. How about before you jump us about having no evidence, you provide some better evidence yourself? Otherwise, your arguments have no more ground to stand on than ours. Other than the ratings you sputter and rant about, which, as it seems at least on MMORPG.COM, are slipping.
They confuse their opinions with factual evidence. Hopefully they will learn the difference and move along but that is doubtful.
I'd hope you'd learn that value isn't absolute, but relative, but that is doubtful.
Being the good sport that I am here are just some of the things I found FUN in the game: Quests, crafting, auction house, combat, mounts, story, and variety in classes.
But how are they any different from other games? EQ2 has quests, crafting, AH, combat, mounts, story, and far more variety in classes and races. It also has housing. Other games have most or all of these things, too. What makes WOW better than them?
You just listed what you like. But there's still no meat on that bone. Most every MMO has quests, but what makes WOW so much better than others that would substantiate the ratings or sales?
Now it is your turn, back up your statement "they are losing subscribers now because all the casuals now have 60s" with hard facts. Otherwise admit your ignorance and edit your statement.
As mentioned, neither of us have hard facts either way. I take what was given by Blizzard to provide a rough estimate. Now prove my estimate wrong.
World of Warcraft is not the best MMORPG in terms of fun value. Simply because Blizzard has managed to build a game that people become addicted to in no way makes it a fun game. Playing WoW 4+ hours a night just so you can get the last two pieces of your epic set (get exhalted with that other faction, get that crafting recipe you've been wanting, etc) does NOT mean you are playing WoW because it is fun. You are playing because Blizzard sucessfully instilled the "Gotta get it all" mentality into your gaming. This applies to basically anyone who is in a raiding guild and raids at least twice a week on a regular basis.
From what I have seen in this thread, the posters that tend to attack other people for their belief on WoW are not the WoW "haters" but the WoW lovers. Most of the anti-WoW posters are trying to get their points across in an intelligent fashion, while most of the pro-WoW players immediately take offense. They cannot seem to accept the fact that people can have opinions of their own. They are the people who are wrong, regardless of whatever facts they may blindly flail around. How many of WoW subscribers are gold farmers? How many are hackers? How many are some person's second or third account? How can we know for sure Blizzard truly has 6 million or so subscribers RIGHT NOW, and that this number is not the total number of unique accounts created since launch, regardless of whether people quit or not? You can blindly believe whatever Blizzard tells you because it will make you feel better about not having any legitimate opinion other than the fact that you think you're right and everyone else is wrong.
You are allowed to like World of Warcraft. There is nothing wrong with that. I don't HATE the game, I just think it rightfully doesn't belong at the top spot. Many people agree with this. By stating that World of Warcraft doesn't deserve the top spot, we are not arrogantly claiming that everything about WoW sucks. However, most of the pro-WoW posters on this thread seem to take offense to the slightest criticism directed in WoW's direction. I want to firstly thank all of the posters (both pro and anti WoW) who have posted intelligently in this thread. Whatever your opinion, as long as you post a legitimate argument as to why you like or dislike WoW, your post is worth reading.
Unfortunately, some people refuse to accept that WoW isnt loved by anyone, and we get repies such as these:
"WoW is the most popular game, but also the most hated. a lot of people are jealous of WoW´s success and give it low rates, altough not many will admit that."
"WoW still has 5 million + players, what a couple of joes and janes on MMORPG.com have to say means nothing." (Right, what seasoned MMORPG players have to say about an MMO means nothing...)
"The #1 Ranked MMO on this site (Eve) is not even in the top 10 in terms of subscribers according to MMOGCHART.com, so that should show you the correlation between this boards ratings and reality. (So since runescape has more subscribers than EvE, its better? please)
And all of these comments come from the first page of this thread, so there are definitely a lot more.
I'm sick and tired of some of the posters on this thread who contribute nothing to the discussion, who merely log in to post something along the lines of "NO YOU'RE WRONG, WOW HAS OVER 5 MILLION SUBSCRIBERS SO ITS THE BEST AND YOU'RE ALL STUPID FOR THINKING OTHERWISE". Millions upon millions of people smoke cigarettes. Must mean that they're real dandy, right?
You poor misguided soul. If you don't think a review can be qualitative I really don't know how to help you other than suggest you educate yourself a bit further and then come back. Here is a simple question that should help you along - When Ebert gives a movie a thumbs up or thumbs down is that qualitative or quantitative? It is almost laughable how these people pathetically ask what I liked about the game as to try to discredit what I found enjoyable. This is all they have as they have no other data points to back up their ignorant statements. The facts are undisputable, however they continue to make ridiculus statements like "they are losing subscribers now because all the casuals now have 60s" without any evidence. They confuse their opinions with factual evidence. Hopefully they will learn the difference and move along but that is doubtful. Being the good sport that I am here are just some of the things I found FUN in the game: Quests, crafting, auction house, combat, mounts, story, and variety in classes. Now it is your turn, back up your statement "they are losing subscribers now because all the casuals now have 60s" with hard facts. Otherwise admit your ignorance and edit your statement.
A thumbs up/down is the same as True/False. That is Quantitative data and should be interpreted as such. As my friend above stated it is EXACTLY the same as a binary 1 or 0 which, ironically, 1 is True 0 is False.
You have yet to backup your statements and still haven't proven to me you have a high school diploma.
Quantitative reivews: A review in which the end result is a number. Though there are facts within this review, the facts contribute to a true/false or a mean which make the review Quantitative data. (i.e. Because of good graphics, good quests, and good community, this game is given an 8.2 out of 10)
Qualitative Review: A review where the end result is subjective to an argument (i.e. Abraham Lincoln had a very excellent Foreign Policy given the fact he stoped Britain from establishing relations with the states in rebellion.)
Tell me how the quests, the leveling, the community, etc... of WoW are good (or to match whatever opinion you have of the game). Don't just point at a CGW or IGN review and say "This says it's good!" because those reviews are 1) Quantitative (No matter how much their reports make it want to have qualitative data, infact, reviews from most magazines provide littler to no qualitative data) and 2) are usually bought out (The author is payed money to write a good review or given good incentives).
Show me you have that Diploma and give a QUALITATIVE review (would you prefer Essay form, because Eassay form documents are QUALITATIVE reviews. I'm sure you've written a book report at some point or another) and stop shoving the "You guys are pathetic I'm better than all of you" attitude in everyones face. That attitude will get you fired from any job you will ever have and make you lose all hope on having good solid friends in real life.
Edit: Spelling Corrections, stupid 3am.
(1997) UO --> EQ -> Runescape -> DAoC -> WoW -> EVE + WAR (2008)
I think WoW has some 4 million players or something (saw it on xbox mag few months ago) so i think it's going strong population wise. I think ppl are bringing WoW down on this site because there is so much news about other games and so much information at one location that it's easy to take the opinions of a few and call it the opinion of many. I personally don't care about WoW, i was into for a while then i got out of it no big deal and i might try out the new expansion but doesnt really look like anything special to me yet.
A bunch of my friends that have not yet played MMOs say theyve heard really good things about WoW and even after i tell them all the bad aspects of the game, they still seem to want to play it. So maybe in the site ratings it might be sinking a bit but thats cuz many ppl here of played the crap out of that game and squeezed every bit of fun we could get out of it before leaving and making fun of the ppl still playing. The ppl still playing prolly find that the game still has more juice cuz they havent seen the criticizing going on on this site...
Originally posted by Pride7 Must hurt to have the facts against your subjective argument. You say what's good is subjective then cry when I list facts. I could tell you what I found fun about the game but I am bright enough to realize what I found fun may not be fun to you - as that is SUBJECTIVE. What isn't subjective are FACTS, please try to understand that as I grow tired of educating you people.
Sir, what you have given as your evidence is quantitative not qualitative. The reason why no one could possibly care about your statistics is because you do not understand the difference between the two.
You give numbers and sales projections which happen to be quantitative forms of data. You have not given a single bit of qualitative data to backup your efforts at giving a successful retort.
Here are the qualitative facts on WoW:
Pros: Easy to pick up and play, fun and quick leveling system from 1-59, wonderful way to get in to the world of MMO gaming.
Cons: High Ratings were given BEFORE patches (No raitings have been given by magazines after patches for specific reasons) allowing for hype to be misleading, The Lore of the game is not consistant from patch to patch, the game leads you by the hand up to level 60, at level 60 if you don't have the free time you can not enjoy the larger extent of raid dungeons because of little kids running most guilds (with the little kids having more free time than the average gamer), gear dependent, Broken PVP system (Admitted by Blizzard)
WoW is a good game for a person wanting to pick up the hobby of MMO gaming, but for those of us who like a little more depth and thought to our MMO's (Seasoned MMO players) WoW turns out to be a persons worst nightmare come true.
I don't care how much the game sells or how many subscribers are on it. It's an easy game to pick up and nothing more and yes, they are losing subscribers now because all the casuals now have 60s. If burning crusade 1) doesn't come out soon or 2) fails to deliver or 3) Both 1 and 2 happens, the game will take a nose dive right in to the ground. There are no ifs ands or buts about it.
I dare you to write qualitative reasons (mentioning things other than subscriber numbers and crap like that) as to why people should play WoW. Give Pros and Cons, because quite frankly, no one will ever take your numbers serriously (or any of you WoW fanbois serriously for that matter)
ratings after patches...stfu, no one does that, research at gamespot bro...
ok, someone needs to deal with this....what is easy lvling? cuz you kill monsters and grind makes it harder?(think about that for a minute)
all games make you kill monsters or do tasks to make you lvl up, how does wow make it easier?
wow's mmo depth is serious, you cant just jump into a fight with onyxia and 39 other people and expect to know whats up..........same thing with sfk, ubrs, st, ToS, Ony Key Quest, lbrs ubrs key, 45min strat?!?. dm, totem quests, benediction, mounts!!!, quests that work, they're not from romania, they'tr from the US and not korean, wtf...
wow is the sickest mmo out....please, tell me of a better game in yur opinion....tell me why.
Must hurt to have the facts against your subjective argument. You say what's good is subjective then cry when I list facts. I could tell you what I found fun about the game but I am bright enough to realize what I found fun may not be fun to you - as that is SUBJECTIVE. What isn't subjective are FACTS, please try to understand that as I grow tired of educating you people.
I don't recall crying. Just stating the facts are meaningless in recognition of value. You still have yet to use any logic at all in refuting a thing I said. You just keep saying, "Oh, well, the facts say this about the game..."
You aren't educating anyone. We knew what the "facts" were before you typed anything out. But it didn't change the fact that a growing number of people are finding WOW less than what the facts would supposedly indicate.
If you don't want to face the facts that some of us don't like WOW for reasons that you simply can't argue with, because they are about what we individually seek in a game, don't get upset with us. That's your problem.
Originally posted by TreborLocke Originally posted by Pride7
You poor misguided soul. If you don't think a review can be qualitative I really don't know how to help you other than suggest you educate yourself a bit further and then come back. Here is a simple question that should help you along - When Ebert gives a movie a thumbs up or thumbs down is that qualitative or quantitative? It is almost laughable how these people pathetically ask what I liked about the game as to try to discredit what I found enjoyable. This is all they have as they have no other data points to back up their ignorant statements. The facts are undisputable, however they continue to make ridiculus statements like "they are losing subscribers now because all the casuals now have 60s" without any evidence. They confuse their opinions with factual evidence. Hopefully they will learn the difference and move along but that is doubtful. Being the good sport that I am here are just some of the things I found FUN in the game: Quests, crafting, auction house, combat, mounts, story, and variety in classes. Now it is your turn, back up your statement "they are losing subscribers now because all the casuals now have 60s" with hard facts. Otherwise admit your ignorance and edit your statement.
A thumbs up/down is the same as True/False. That is Quantitative data and should be interpreted as such. As my friend above stated it is EXACTLY the same as a binary 1 or 0 which, ironically, 1 is True 0 is False.
You have yet to backup your statements and still haven't proven to me you have a high school diploma.
Quantitative reivews: A review in which the end result is a number. Though there are facts within this review, the facts contribute to a true/false or a mean which make the review Quantitative data. (i.e. Because of good graphics, good quests, and good community, this game is given an 8.2 out of 10)
Qualitative Review: A review where the end result is subjective to an argument (i.e. Abraham Lincoln had a very excellent Foreign Policy given the fact he stoped Britain from establishing relations with the states in rebellion.)
Tell me how the quests, the leveling, the community, etc... of WoW are good (or to match whatever opinion you have of the game). Don't just point at a CGW or IGN review and say "This says it's good!" because those reviews are 1) Quantitative (No matter how much their reports make it want to have qualitative data, infact, reviews from most magazines provide littler to no qualitative data) and 2) are usually bought out (The author is payed money to write a good review or given good incentives).
Show me you have that Diploma and give a QUALITATIVE review (would you prefer Essay form, because Eassay form documents are QUALITATIVE reviews. I'm sure you've written a book report at some point or another) and stop shoving the "You guys are pathetic I'm better than all of you" attitude in everyones face. That attitude will get you fired from any job you will ever have and make you lose all hope on having good solid friends in real life.
Edit: Spelling Corrections, stupid 3am.
All I will say regarding your theory on a thumb's up or down review is LOL!
I was a good sport and listed a few items I found enjoyable with the game and instead of supporting your claims with facts you resort to childish attacks in a sad attempt to deflect that you don't have any. You really may want to ask yourself why it is you are so bitter with WOW's success.
You poor misguided soul. If you don't think a review can be qualitative I really don't know how to help you other than suggest you educate yourself a bit further and then come back. Here is a simple question that should help you along - When Ebert gives a movie a thumbs up or thumbs down is that qualitative or quantitative?
Quantitative. "Thumbs up" and "thumbs down" are just like binary 1 and 0. They do not describe any sort of quality about a movie other than the general assessment that a person finds it good or bad. It's like saying dinner at someone's house was "bad". Why? The food? The conversation between guests? Your medical condition when going to dinner, or afterwards? What made it "bad"?
It is almost laughable how these people pathetically ask what I liked about the game as to try to discredit what I found enjoyable.
It is almost laughable how these people pathetically ask what I liked about the game as to try to discredit what I found enjoyable.
Actually, it's because you assert that numbers mean the game is "good". That's false. That's quantity, not quality.
What about WOW specifically makes it fun for you to play? What mechanics do you find about it that make it more enjoyable than any other MMO you have ever played?
This is all they have as they have no other data points to back up their ignorant statements. The facts are undisputable, however they continue to make ridiculus statements like "they are losing subscribers now because all the casuals now have 60s" without any evidence.
Sadly, you also have no hard evidence they aren't, since no facts about that sort of thing are actually available to you. Kettle, meet pot.
However, we can make reasonable speculations about how WOW is doing. If it had 6.6 million at last count, and 4 million in China at last count, that leaves only 2.6 million for the rest of the world. If we were to guess around only 1 million subscribers everywhere else but the U.S., that leaves only 1.6 million here. Which is far, far, far less than before it opened in China.
The hard evidence you seem to want us to provide to support out statements is no more present than evidence to the contrary. How about before you jump us about having no evidence, you provide some better evidence yourself? Otherwise, your arguments have no more ground to stand on than ours. Other than the ratings you sputter and rant about, which, as it seems at least on MMORPG.COM, are slipping.
They confuse their opinions with factual evidence. Hopefully they will learn the difference and move along but that is doubtful.
I'd hope you'd learn that value isn't absolute, but relative, but that is doubtful.
Being the good sport that I am here are just some of the things I found FUN in the game: Quests, crafting, auction house, combat, mounts, story, and variety in classes.
But how are they any different from other games? EQ2 has quests, crafting, AH, combat, mounts, story, and far more variety in classes and races. It also has housing. Other games have most or all of these things, too. What makes WOW better than them?
You just listed what you like. But there's still no meat on that bone. Most every MMO has quests, but what makes WOW so much better than others that would substantiate the ratings or sales?
Now it is your turn, back up your statement "they are losing subscribers now because all the casuals now have 60s" with hard facts. Otherwise admit your ignorance and edit your statement.
Now it is your turn, back up your statement "they are losing subscribers now because all the casuals now have 60s" with hard facts. Otherwise admit your ignorance and edit your statement.
As mentioned, neither of us have hard facts either way. I take what was given by Blizzard to provide a rough estimate. Now prove my estimate wrong.
While I find your ignorance amusing, I have no choice but to point out how hopelessly out of touch you and the rest of the WOW haters really are.
Here is what Vivendi's annual report says on WOW's breakdown of customers:
January 2005 - WOW breaks all previous North America records with 600,000 active accounts in North America, Australia, South Korea, and New Zealand.
June 2005 - WOW is successfully launched in China.
September 2005 - WOW exceeds 4M subscribers with 1M in North America and 1.5M in China.
So let's examine what you said to show your true ignorance... You said:
"If we were to guess around only 1 million subscribers everywhere else but the U.S., that leaves only 1.6 million here. Which is far, far, far less than before it opened in China."
Now explain to me how 1.6M subscribers in North America is "far, far, far less than before it opened in China" when their own annual report showed they had 600k subscribers in North America BEFORE they launched in China and 1M in North America AFTER they launched in China.
Hopefully this exercise has shown those reading at home how out of touch these WOW haters really are.
August 29, 2005: WOW hits 4 million subscribers... and that thare are "more than 1 million" in North America.
How can this be, Batman? It surpassed 2 million before launching in China, yet now it's apparently just a touch over 1 million now? Who can solve this puzzle?
September 2005 - WOW exceeds 4M subscribers with 1M in North America and 1.5M in China.
So let's examine what you said to show your true ignorance... You said:
"If we were to guess around only 1 million subscribers everywhere else but the U.S., that leaves only 1.6 million here. Which is far, far, far less than before it opened in China."
Now explain to me how 1.6M subscribers in North America is "far, far, far less than before it opened in China" when their own annual report showed they had 600k subscribers in North America BEFORE they launched in China and 1M in North America AFTER they launched in China.
Well, given that they actually had 2 million subscribers in North America and a few other places at the time, and that that number is now 2.6 million (rough estimate), I find it hard to believe that there are less than 1 million subscribers in places other than China and the U.S.
So, again. 6.6 million - 4 million in China = 2.6 million. Now, unless the numbers got really fudged up, I'm willing to give everywhere else but the U.S. 1 million subscribers (though the complaining and whatnot heard from Australian/New Zealand would lead one to think that they equaled our numbers).
So, yeah. There's my numbers. I crunched what was there. You got anything better, go for it.
Hopefully this exercise has shown those reading at home how out of touch these WOW haters really are.
Hopefully, this exercise has shown those reading at home how to do basic research about a topic, so that you don't look like a horse's a** when you open your mouth to look like you know something about an issue.
Originally posted by Pride7 Originally posted by kimmar Originally posted by Pride7 I come back and see this thread is still on the front page. Sadly no matter how much talking the WOW haters do they can't change the fact that WOW is the #1 MMORPG on the market in terms of sales, subscriptions, and RATINGS/REVIEWS. I would like to see more content added for the level 60 solo players but even missing that it is still the #1 MMO on the market based on FACTS. If it isn't #1 to an individual I respect that, but realize that is only your opinion and the majority of MMO players disagree.
Not the majority of MMO players who come to this site.
I think it's right where it should be compared to the games above it. It was first MMO game that a friend talked me into playing. And I had some fun with it. But I didn't know what I was missing until I started playing DAoC and EQ2.
I'm having probably twice the fun in those games as I did with WoW.
It's a good gateway game. Because I'm not sure I would have understood DAoC or EQ2 if I hadn't played it first. But once you're ready to kick off the training wheels, there are some much more fun and complex games out there.
Ask yourself one question: If you were a company would you care more about what the majority of MMO players of one site thought or what the majority of TOTAL MMO players thought? That depends on what I started my company for.
I think when Blizzard first started they were a company of gamers who wanted to make some fun games for gamers and make a decent living doing it. Now I think they're just a business. I don't think they care much about the true gamers anymore. I'm not putting down the casual player by saying that, I'm just trying to make a point of how their goals have changed as a company.
When I deal with Mythic I get a different feeling. With everything from gameplay to dealing with their customer service staff to the camelotherald.com reports that are posted, I get the feeling that they are a group of hardcore gamers that are sticking to their guns in making games for other hardcore gamers. Yeah, they're a business and they make money, but they are also having fun doing it. You can tell. At Blizzard it seems lately it's more just a robotic grind for the shareholders.
As far as EQ2 goes. They are in the same mode as Blizzard is. Everything is about business. But there is something in that game that is different. I don't know how to describe it. But someone on that staff knows what they're doing in designing that game. It's got some really innovative qualities to it. From the questing, to the voice acting, to the environments, all that stuff. And the community is really good too. So I cut their business model a little slack.
WoW serves it's purpose for the casual gamer. But for the people who frequent this site it's purpose obviously isn't what we're looking for as a group in general. We just expect more. --------------------------------------- BTW, do you own stock in Blizzard or something? Because you seem to have this personal interest in propping them up. Going back and reading some of your stuff it's like you're defending your girlfriend or something.
============================= It all seems so stupid It makes me want to give up But why should I give up When it all seems so stupid
Sources: gamesindustry.biz, and PC Games (based on press releases from Blizzard, which don't go back that far, sadly)
Did you actually read the articles you are referring to? We are talking about North America subscriptions not worldwide subscriptions. The argument was WOW had far, far, far less subs in the US after it launched in China. Let's take a look at your articles from May where you got your 1.5M number. Both articles are apparently from the same Blizzard press release but show me where either of them state how many subs are in North America. The first is talking about the success in the UK. The 2nd says "Blizzard's World of Warcraft MMORPG has achieved unprecedented global success." Please try to understand the argument before you make yourself look bad publicly.
June 14, 2005: WOW has surpassed 2 million subscribers, before launching in China. Consistant with what was last reported, given WOW's startling rise.
You are wrong yet again - 1st as the title states "WORLD OF WARCRAFT® ACHIEVES NEW MILESTONE WITH TWO MILLION PAYING SUBSCRIBERS WORLDWIDE". The key word here being WORLDWIDE! 2nd this was not BEFORE the China launch this was 1 week after the China launch. WOW launched in China on June 7th the release was on June 14th. How embarrasing for you.
July 21, 2005: WOW hits 3.5 million subscribers. 1.5 million in China alone, which leaves the rest of the world at the 2 million mark reached earlier.
August 29, 2005: WOW hits 4 million subscribers... and that thare are "more than 1 million" in North America.
How can this be, Batman? It surpassed 2 million before launching in China, yet now it's apparently just a touch over 1 million now? Who can solve this puzzle?
As I pointed out by actually reading the articles you referred to the 2 Million number was WORLDWIDE. Vivendi's Annual Report shows that before the China launch they had 600,000 North America subscribers.
Hopefully someone else can do a better job than you, because you just really embarrassed yourself.
Originally posted by kimmar Originally posted by Pride7 Originally posted by kimmar Originally posted by Pride7 I come back and see this thread is still on the front page. Sadly no matter how much talking the WOW haters do they can't change the fact that WOW is the #1 MMORPG on the market in terms of sales, subscriptions, and RATINGS/REVIEWS. I would like to see more content added for the level 60 solo players but even missing that it is still the #1 MMO on the market based on FACTS. If it isn't #1 to an individual I respect that, but realize that is only your opinion and the majority of MMO players disagree.
Not the majority of MMO players who come to this site.
I think it's right where it should be compared to the games above it. It was first MMO game that a friend talked me into playing. And I had some fun with it. But I didn't know what I was missing until I started playing DAoC and EQ2.
I'm having probably twice the fun in those games as I did with WoW.
It's a good gateway game. Because I'm not sure I would have understood DAoC or EQ2 if I hadn't played it first. But once you're ready to kick off the training wheels, there are some much more fun and complex games out there.
Ask yourself one question: If you were a company would you care more about what the majority of MMO players of one site thought or what the majority of TOTAL MMO players thought? That depends on what I started my company for.
I think when Blizzard first started they were a company of gamers who wanted to make some fun games for gamers and make a decent living doing it. Now I think they're just a business. I don't think they care much about the true gamers anymore. I'm not putting down the casual player by saying that, I'm just trying to make a point of how their goals have changed as a company.
When I deal with Mythic I get a different feeling. With everything from gameplay to dealing with their customer service staff to the camelotherald.com reports that are posted, I get the feeling that they are a group of hardcore gamers that are sticking to their guns in making games for other hardcore gamers. Yeah, they're a business and they make money, but they are also having fun doing it. You can tell. At Blizzard it seems lately it's more just a robotic grind for the shareholders.
As far as EQ2 goes. They are in the same mode as Blizzard is. Everything is about business. But there is something in that game that is different. I don't know how to describe it. But someone on that staff knows what they're doing in designing that game. It's got some really innovative qualities to it. From the questing, to the voice acting, to the environments, all that stuff. And the community is really good too. So I cut their business model a little slack.
WoW serves it's purpose for the casual gamer. But for the people who frequent this site it's purpose obviously isn't what we're looking for as a group in general. We just expect more. --------------------------------------- BTW, do you own stock in Blizzard or something? Because you seem to have this personal interest in propping them up. Going back and reading some of your stuff it's like you're defending your girlfriend or something.
If you start a business only to please the folks on this board you wouldn't be in business long. As I previously pointed out IGN which is home to the most active MMO boards has WOW #1 by both their own review and readers reviews. The same can be said for Gamespot and other much bigger sites.
Not only do I not have any interest financially in Blizzard (or Vivendi) I no longer play WOW, the difference is I am man enough to admit WOW is a great game and is #1. The WOW haters on the other hand seem to simply just make up facts to try to support their opinions. I have no problem with someone's opinion that game X is better than game Y, I do have a problem with someone stating something like "WOW has far, far, far more North America subscribers before they launched in China" in an effort to paint the game in a negative light when they have absolutely no facts to back up this statement.
Originally posted by Pride7 If you start a business only to please the folks on this board you wouldn't be in business long. As I previously pointed out IGN which is home to the most active MMO boards has WOW #1 by both their own review and readers reviews. The same can be said for Gamespot and other much bigger sites. Not only do I not have any interest financially in Blizzard (or Vivendi) I no longer play WOW, the difference is I am man enough to admit WOW is a great game and is #1. The WOW haters on the other hand seem to simply just make up facts to try to support their opinions. I have no problem with someone's opinion that game X is better than game Y, I do have a problem with someone stating something like "WOW has far, far, far more North America subscribers before they launched in China" in an effort to paint the game in a negative light when they have absolutely no facts to back up this statement.
I seriously doubt any "official" reviews have been given by people playing the game all the way to level 60 and beyond. If I had given my review by what I had experienced in my first month of play I prolly would have rated it much higher than I did when I finally felt that I was qualified to do so. And that is for me the biggest problem with ratings, both "official" and reader ones. When are people qualified to give a sound rating of a game?
Originally posted by Pride7 If you start a business only to please the folks on this board you wouldn't be in business long. As I previously pointed out IGN which is home to the most active MMO boards has WOW #1 by both their own review and readers reviews. The same can be said for Gamespot and other much bigger sites. Not only do I not have any interest financially in Blizzard (or Vivendi) I no longer play WOW, the difference is I am man enough to admit WOW is a great game and is #1. The WOW haters on the other hand seem to simply just make up facts to try to support their opinions. I have no problem with someone's opinion that game X is better than game Y, I do have a problem with someone stating something like "WOW has far, far, far more North America subscribers before they launched in China" in an effort to paint the game in a negative light when they have absolutely no facts to back up this statement.
Pride7 your posts are more unbearable to read than WoW is to play. How is the weather up there on that soapbox?
Originally posted by Amnesiac07 Originally posted by Pride7 If you start a business only to please the folks on this board you wouldn't be in business long. As I previously pointed out IGN which is home to the most active MMO boards has WOW #1 by both their own review and readers reviews. The same can be said for Gamespot and other much bigger sites. Not only do I not have any interest financially in Blizzard (or Vivendi) I no longer play WOW, the difference is I am man enough to admit WOW is a great game and is #1. The WOW haters on the other hand seem to simply just make up facts to try to support their opinions. I have no problem with someone's opinion that game X is better than game Y, I do have a problem with someone stating something like "WOW has far, far, far more North America subscribers before they launched in China" in an effort to paint the game in a negative light when they have absolutely no facts to back up this statement.
Pride7 your posts are more unbearable to read than WoW is to play. How is the weather up there on that soapbox?
Forgive me if I insist on using facts to support my posts. To answer your question - Partly cloudy with a chance of rain
Ok that was pretty funny I admit, nice retort. Well played.
EDIT: I was specifically commenting on your posts in threads regarded to WoW as a success/failure, nothing else. WoW hit a homerun in regards to $, mostly attributable to the Warcraft name imo. Can't really debate that, what is very debatable to me and many others is whether or not it is ultimately a quality product.
Sources: gamesindustry.biz, and PC Games (based on press releases from Blizzard, which don't go back that far, sadly)
Did you actually read the articles you are referring to? We are talking about North America subscriptions not worldwide subscriptions. The argument was WOW had far, far, far less subs in the US after it launched in China. Let's take a look at your articles from May where you got your 1.5M number. Both articles are apparently from the same Blizzard press release but show me where either of them state how many subs are in North America. The first is talking about the success in the UK. The 2nd says "Blizzard's World of Warcraft MMORPG has achieved unprecedented global success." Please try to understand the argument before you make yourself look bad publicly.
Please try to undestand that when it had opened in the UK there was no way in the hottest part of Hell they got more than the 600,000 subs that North America had when it launched there.
June 14, 2005: WOW has surpassed 2 million subscribers, before launching in China. Consistant with what was last reported, given WOW's startling rise.
You are wrong yet again - 1st as the title states "WORLD OF WARCRAFT® ACHIEVES NEW MILESTONE WITH TWO MILLION PAYING SUBSCRIBERS WORLDWIDE". The key word here being WORLDWIDE! 2nd this was not BEFORE the China launch this was 1 week after the China launch. WOW launched in China on June 7th the release was on June 14th. How embarrasing for you.
No, actually, given that the release was 7 days after launch there, there is no way they could have accurate sales figures from that 1-week interval. I know you obviously know nothing about how businesses report sales totals, but anything said a week after something hits the shelf says nothing about the sales totals for a single week.
Unless you're willing to say that two weeks made a difference between a few hundred-thousand Chinese players, and 1.5 million of them.
If so, your grasp of numbers or even economics is weak and flawed.
July 21, 2005: WOW hits 3.5 million subscribers. 1.5 million in China alone, which leaves the rest of the world at the 2 million mark reached earlier.
August 29, 2005: WOW hits 4 million subscribers... and that thare are "more than 1 million" in North America.
How can this be, Batman? It surpassed 2 million before launching in China, yet now it's apparently just a touch over 1 million now? Who can solve this puzzle?
As I pointed out by actually reading the articles you referred to the 2 Million number was WORLDWIDE. Vivendi's Annual Report shows that before the China launch they had 600,000 North America subscribers. Hopefully someone else can do a better job than you, because you just really embarrassed yourself.
Hopefully someone else can do a better job than you, because you just really embarrassed yourself.
Hopefully someone else can do a better job than you, because you just really embarrassed yourself.
You still aren't accounting for the fact there were at least 1.5 million before (and probably much more; their failure to report UK and other miscellaneous areas' sales would indicate they had not done entirely that well overseas, so I'm banking that they were pushing close to the 2 million mark in NA sales alone), and "over 1 million" after. Where did 500,000 accounts go? Perhaps you should enlist Scooby and the gang to search for those missing subscriptions.
As for the Vivendi annual report, which one? 2005's only indicates the 5 million subscribers for that year, and I see nothing for any of the 2004 reports supporting your claim. Perhaps you would be willing to do as I did cite a source, possibly even a page number? Because otherwise, you're just fabricating that one.
And if I really embarrassed myself, why are you still arguing the point? Hell, if I'm so wrong, why do you even try? I've provided a logical, reasonable amount of deductive reasoning and cited sources that let me to these conclusions.
You, on the otherhand, continue to belittle, insult, and generally act like an a** to anyone who confronts you on the issue. You haven't yet offered any actual reason as to why any of these numbers matter, but since you wanted them, I was more than willing to provide numbers showing a decline in WOW's numbers in the past 6 months (and perhaps beginning further back than that).
Are you gonna put something on the table there, or do you intend to hurl insult around all day?
Sources: gamesindustry.biz, and PC Games (based on press releases from Blizzard, which don't go back that far, sadly)
Did you actually read the articles you are referring to? We are talking about North America subscriptions not worldwide subscriptions. The argument was WOW had far, far, far less subs in the US after it launched in China. Let's take a look at your articles from May where you got your 1.5M number. Both articles are apparently from the same Blizzard press release but show me where either of them state how many subs are in North America. The first is talking about the success in the UK. The 2nd says "Blizzard's World of Warcraft MMORPG has achieved unprecedented global success." Please try to understand the argument before you make yourself look bad publicly.
Please try to undestand that when it had opened in the UK there was no way in the hottest part of Hell they got more than the 600,000 subs that North America had when it launched there.
You can't prove any of this, please stick to facts not your wild speculations. Show me 1 source that shows WOW had more North American subscribers before they launched in China than after, you can't all you can do is speculate and provide articles that talk about Worldwide Subscribers. The FACTS I am referring to come from hard data provided to shareholders. The FACTS you refer to only exist in your head.
June 14, 2005: WOW has surpassed 2 million subscribers, before launching in China. Consistant with what was last reported, given WOW's startling rise.
You are wrong yet again - 1st as the title states "WORLD OF WARCRAFT® ACHIEVES NEW MILESTONE WITH TWO MILLION PAYING SUBSCRIBERS WORLDWIDE". The key word here being WORLDWIDE! 2nd this was not BEFORE the China launch this was 1 week after the China launch. WOW launched in China on June 7th the release was on June 14th. How embarrasing for you.
No, actually, given that the release was 7 days after launch there, there is no way they could have accurate sales figures from that 1-week interval. I know you obviously know nothing about how businesses report sales totals, but anything said a week after something hits the shelf says nothing about the sales totals for a single week.
You insist on digging your hole deeper and deeper so I suppose I will school you once again as you continue to act knowledgable about a subject you apparently know nothing about. Each week any publisher requires previous week sales via EDI, larger chains can actually provide the data hourly. Any publisher can have day 1 sales within 24 hours of a launch not to mention a publisher that has an MMO and can run daily if not hourly reports that show new/total subscribers. I am going to have to start charging you as I can't keep on educating you for free.
July 21, 2005: WOW hits 3.5 million subscribers. 1.5 million in China alone, which leaves the rest of the world at the 2 million mark reached earlier.
August 29, 2005: WOW hits 4 million subscribers... and that thare are "more than 1 million" in North America.
How can this be, Batman? It surpassed 2 million before launching in China, yet now it's apparently just a touch over 1 million now? Who can solve this puzzle?
As I pointed out by actually reading the articles you referred to the 2 Million number was WORLDWIDE. Vivendi's Annual Report shows that before the China launch they had 600,000 North America subscribers.
Hopefully someone else can do a better job than you, because you just really embarrassed yourself.
Hopefully someone else can do a better job than you, because you just really embarrassed yourself.
Hopefully someone else can do a better job than you, because you just really embarrassed yourself.
You still aren't accounting for the fact there were at least 1.5 million before (and probably much more; their failure to report UK and other miscellaneous areas' sales would indicate they had not done entirely that well overseas, so I'm banking that they were pushing close to the 2 million mark in NA sales alone), and "over 1 million" after. Where did 500,000 accounts go? Perhaps you should enlist Scooby and the gang to search for those missing subscriptions.
Again you are talking out of your a** show me one report or press release that shows they had 2 million subs in North America BEFORE they launched in China. They didn't, only now do they have close to 2 million (per MMOGCHART.com), the only North America subscriber number mentioned before their China launch I found was the 600,000 number. You keep making up facts as you go along but realize those are only valid data points in your head.
As for the Vivendi annual report, which one? 2005's only indicates the 5 million subscribers for that year, and I see nothing for any of the 2004 reports supporting your claim. Perhaps you would be willing to do as I did cite a source, possibly even a page number? Because otherwise, you're just fabricating that one.
I am talking about Vivendi's 2005 annual report, try to actually read it this time. Here are the facts from their report with page numbers - Again, these are FACTS try not to let that big word scare you:
Page 19
January 2005 - WOW breaks all previous North America records with over 600,000 active accounts in North America, Australia, South Korea, and New Zealand.
Page 20
June 2005 - Blizzard's WOW is successfully launched in China
September 2005 - WOW exceed's 4 million subscribers, with 1 million paying users in North America and more than 1.5 million in China.
No need for an apology I already know you are sorry
WoW is not on the MMORPG.com top 7 list as of 18 June 2006, at 4:12 PST.
FACT:
The prior FACT is the context for this thread.
Why the bitterness, WoW defenders? It just oozes from your posts.
The Greyhammer Timeline (Games Played > 1 month)
1999 >-- Everquest -- Dark Age of Camelot -- Everquest -- Anarchy Online -- Everquest -- Star Wars Galaxies -- Final Fantasy XI -- Everquest -- World of Warcraft -- Everquest 2 -- EVE Online --> 2006
Playing Navy Field (www.navyfield.com) and waiting for Vanguard.
WoW is not on the MMORPG.com top 7 list as of 18 June 2006, at 4:12 PST.
FACT:
The prior FACT is the context for this thread.
Why the bitterness, WoW defenders? It just oozes from your posts.
FACT: WOW is the #1 MMO on Gamespot.com, one of the largest gaming sites, with a 9.2 rating after 26,742 votes (compared to the 6k on MMO).
FACT: WOW is the #1 MMO on GameRankings.com, a site that compiles all the industry reviews of any given title, with a 91%.
No one is bitter that WOW isn't doing well on this site, the defenders just want to make sure it is clear that this site is a very small sampling of the MMO industry.
You can't prove any of this, please stick to facts not your wild speculations. Show me 1 source that shows WOW had more North American subscribers before they launched in China than after, you can't all you can do is speculate and provide articles that talk about Worldwide Subscribers. The FACTS I am referring to come from hard data provided to shareholders. The FACTS you refer to only exist in your head.
Yeah, it's too bad you're own counterargument is based on lack of the same data.
I guess we all just make up what we want to in our heads, huh?
You can't show me one source saying that they didn't have more NA subscribers before they launched worldwide. So all you can do is speculate and provide articles that talk about Worldwide subscribers.
Round and round and round it goes, where it stops, no one knowns...
You insist on digging your hole deeper and deeper so I suppose I will school you once again as you continue to act knowledgable about a subject you apparently know nothing about. Each week any publisher requires previous week sales via EDI, larger chains can actually provide the data hourly. Any publisher can have day 1 sales within 24 hours of a launch not to mention a publisher that has an MMO and can run daily if not hourly reports that show new/total subscribers. I am going to have to start charging you as I can't keep on educating you for free.
Yeah, it's too bad you're own counterargument is based on lack of the same data.
I guess we all just make up what we want to in our heads, huh?
You can't show me one source saying that they didn't have more NA subscribers before they launched worldwide. So all you can do is speculate and provide articles that talk about Worldwide subscribers.
Round and round and round it goes, where it stops, no one knowns...
You insist on digging your hole deeper and deeper so I suppose I will school you once again as you continue to act knowledgable about a subject you apparently know nothing about. Each week any publisher requires previous week sales via EDI, larger chains can actually provide the data hourly. Any publisher can have day 1 sales within 24 hours of a launch not to mention a publisher that has an MMO and can run daily if not hourly reports that show new/total subscribers. I am going to have to start charging you as I can't keep on educating you for free.
So they got a week's sales, translated, sent to Blizzard, and pressed into a release in 7 days?
You have a mighty interesting view of the efficiency of retail companies. Too bad it bears no resemblence to reality, since no retailer has ever displayed such aggressive, total efficiency in reporting sales numbers.
Besides, you can't prove anything yourself anyway. Show me the actual numbers on first-week China sales, and I'd be inclined to believe you.
Otherwise, you're guilty of the same thing you accuse me of.
Again you are talking out of your a** show me one report or press release that shows they had 2 million subs in North America BEFORE they launched in China. They didn't, only now do they have close to 2 million (per MMOGCHART.com), the only North America subscriber number mentioned before their China launch I found was the 600,000 number. You keep making up facts as you go along but realize those are only valid data points in your head.
You still have no facts to back up your own statements, either. I at least cited some sources. Are you just incapable or unwilling to do the same? I am talking about Vivendi's 2005 annual report, try to actually read it this time. Here are the facts from their report with page numbers - Again, these are FACTS try not to let that big word scare you: Page 19 January 2005 - WOW breaks all previous North America records with over 600,000 active accounts in North America, Australia, South Korea, and New Zealand.
Actually, that was page 18. Page 19 has the rest of the normal press release stuff. So, in January, it was 600,000, and in September it has the August info. I never argued about January. I'm just curious what happened in the following part of the year. Something you seem to keep avoiding. Page 20
You still have no facts to back up your own statements, either. I at least cited some sources. Are you just incapable or unwilling to do the same?
I am talking about Vivendi's 2005 annual report, try to actually read it this time. Here are the facts from their report with page numbers - Again, these are FACTS try not to let that big word scare you:
Page 19
January 2005 - WOW breaks all previous North America records with over 600,000 active accounts in North America, Australia, South Korea, and New Zealand.
Actually, that was page 18. Page 19 has the rest of the normal press release stuff.
So, in January, it was 600,000, and in September it has the August info.
I never argued about January. I'm just curious what happened in the following part of the year. Something you seem to keep avoiding.
Page 20
Actually, that was page 18. Page 19 has the rest of the normal press release stuff.
So, in January, it was 600,000, and in September it has the August info.
I never argued about January. I'm just curious what happened in the following part of the year. Something you seem to keep avoiding.
Page 20
June 2005 - Blizzard's WOW is successfully launched in China
September 2005 - WOW exceed's 4 million subscribers, with 1 million paying users in North America and more than 1.5 million in China.
No need for an apology I already know you are sorry
You still haven't explained where all the players went. You're actually telling me that from January to September, for about 9 months, there was no more than 400,000 extra subscribers? Even while millions were being added everywhere else?
Man, if you have sense for numbers like this, I am sorry... that you can't see the discrepancy in sales here. And that you can't see that they deliberately did not report the numbers more accurately because they weren't that good for their NA sales.
Are you gonna wake up and smell the coffee today anytime? Blizzard has acted with deliberate consideration in not letting anyone know what the actual numbers are. I still have yet to see you account for the utter lack of sales in NA for at least the past year, and you simply act like you don't even see that one. You nick-pick over numbers you yourself don't have any access to, so nothing you've said here has any basis in fact.
You did exactly what you accused others of doing: miscontruing the few facts that were there to support an opinion, rather than a factual statement. You still haven't proven or disproven anything, and the simple fact is, you cannot. You can't because there are no facts, no more than I've dug up for you to rearrange as you want.
Either offer a reasonable attempt at argument, or just tell me you aren't going to so I don't feel compelled to argue with an inexperienced, unreasonable child.
This site is quite a bit more focused on what makes a good MMORPG than the two sites you mentioned. After all, this is MMORPG.com. I don't care what GAMERS think makes a good MMORPG. I care what MMORPGers think makes a good MMORPG. And this site is the best focus group for that effort.
The Greyhammer Timeline (Games Played > 1 month)
1999 >-- Everquest -- Dark Age of Camelot -- Everquest -- Anarchy Online -- Everquest -- Star Wars Galaxies -- Final Fantasy XI -- Everquest -- World of Warcraft -- Everquest 2 -- EVE Online --> 2006
Playing Navy Field (www.navyfield.com) and waiting for Vanguard.
You insist on digging your hole deeper and deeper so I suppose I will school you once again as you continue to act knowledgable about a subject you apparently know nothing about. Each week any publisher requires previous week sales via EDI, larger chains can actually provide the data hourly. Any publisher can have day 1 sales within 24 hours of a launch not to mention a publisher that has an MMO and can run daily if not hourly reports that show new/total subscribers. I am going to have to start charging you as I can't keep on educating you for free.
So they got a week's sales, translated, sent to Blizzard, and pressed into a release in 7 days?
You have a mighty interesting view of the efficiency of retail companies. Too bad it bears no resemblence to reality, since no retailer has ever displayed such aggressive, total efficiency in reporting sales numbers.
Of course they do. You have heard of computerised inventories I assume.
Big retailers all have online stock control, the till's are all smart. They know exactly how many of each unit is sold from where, to who (if you paid by credit card) and at what time (bar code readers). For chain stores this data relays to a central ordering office in real time which orders more.
The amount of data mining my local supermarket does on it's customers is legendary. They know what my favourite foods are, what times of the week and year I prefer them, which shops I have visited, what bargains I go for, and not just me, millions of others all personally profiled in real time.
Large distributors/publishers pay thousands of pounds a year to market research companies to keep them abridged of current trends. Just like Charts for Pop music and movies, they compile game charts based on the sales numbers given to them weekly by a selection of the biggest retail outlets. All game companies, not just Blizzard have access to and pay high attention to the game charts on a weekly if not daily basis. .
.
WoW is still a top ten seller on shelves in Europe. It may well have dropped from North America. Boxes on shelves is the key to major sales. When the box losses it's shop shelf presence, you should expect the subscription numbers to reflect this. consequently, the expansion pack this christmas is going to set it all off again. Even in North America. Expect a Blizzard of new sales records. You haven't seen anything yet.
I need to mention to you that subcribers don't mean that they are all active. A subscriber account can be innactive yet still a subscriber all the same. If you look at news reports. The last actual report on active subcribers came from Blizzard Entertainment Ltd. at about 1.5mil. Since then, they have only listed subcribers as accounts as opposed to accounts active. (Ovbiously quantitative data is the only way to get through to you)
Blizzard fails to mention how many people they have on at a single time per server.
Also, you have not given your qualitative pros and cons response yet. I'm still waiting for that lovely post which will contain your actual oppinion as opposed to the oppinions of others.
Get out of your 10 year old "everything I think is what everyone else should think" attitude. Many people are disgusted by World of Warcraft now, especially those in the actual gaming community. Take a hint, a game could have all the good reviews it could get, however the game only got one major Game of the Year award and that was from Gamespot. ONLY ONE GOTY AWARD! Is it possible people are reviewing the game the way it should be reviewed? Oh my gosh!
So when you point at reviews to try and prove to us that you have evidence as to why WoW is the best game out there, just remember. It only won ONE game of the year award from an internet site out of several hundreds of magazines and internet sites out there that give out game of the year awards. (Link to awards source: http://www.blizzard.com/inblizz/awards.shtml)
Ciao!
Edit: Made a few typos
(1997) UO --> EQ -> Runescape -> DAoC -> WoW -> EVE + WAR (2008)
Comments
I don't recall crying. Just stating the facts are meaningless in recognition of value. You still have yet to use any logic at all in refuting a thing I said. You just keep saying, "Oh, well, the facts say this about the game..."
You aren't educating anyone. We knew what the "facts" were before you typed anything out. But it didn't change the fact that a growing number of people are finding WOW less than what the facts would supposedly indicate.
If you don't want to face the facts that some of us don't like WOW for reasons that you simply can't argue with, because they are about what we individually seek in a game, don't get upset with us. That's your problem.
Quantitative. "Thumbs up" and "thumbs down" are just like binary 1 and 0. They do not describe any sort of quality about a movie other than the general assessment that a person finds it good or bad. It's like saying dinner at someone's house was "bad". Why? The food? The conversation between guests? Your medical condition when going to dinner, or afterwards? What made it "bad"?
Actually, it's because you assert that numbers mean the game is "good". That's false. That's quantity, not quality.
What about WOW specifically makes it fun for you to play? What mechanics do you find about it that make it more enjoyable than any other MMO you have ever played?
Sadly, you also have no hard evidence they aren't, since no facts about that sort of thing are actually available to you. Kettle, meet pot.
However, we can make reasonable speculations about how WOW is doing. If it had 6.6 million at last count, and 4 million in China at last count, that leaves only 2.6 million for the rest of the world. If we were to guess around only 1 million subscribers everywhere else but the U.S., that leaves only 1.6 million here. Which is far, far, far less than before it opened in China.
The hard evidence you seem to want us to provide to support out statements is no more present than evidence to the contrary. How about before you jump us about having no evidence, you provide some better evidence yourself? Otherwise, your arguments have no more ground to stand on than ours. Other than the ratings you sputter and rant about, which, as it seems at least on MMORPG.COM, are slipping.
I'd hope you'd learn that value isn't absolute, but relative, but that is doubtful.
But how are they any different from other games? EQ2 has quests, crafting, AH, combat, mounts, story, and far more variety in classes and races. It also has housing. Other games have most or all of these things, too. What makes WOW better than them?
You just listed what you like. But there's still no meat on that bone. Most every MMO has quests, but what makes WOW so much better than others that would substantiate the ratings or sales?
As mentioned, neither of us have hard facts either way. I take what was given by Blizzard to provide a rough estimate. Now prove my estimate wrong.World of Warcraft is not the best MMORPG in terms of fun value. Simply because Blizzard has managed to build a game that people become addicted to in no way makes it a fun game. Playing WoW 4+ hours a night just so you can get the last two pieces of your epic set (get exhalted with that other faction, get that crafting recipe you've been wanting, etc) does NOT mean you are playing WoW because it is fun. You are playing because Blizzard sucessfully instilled the "Gotta get it all" mentality into your gaming. This applies to basically anyone who is in a raiding guild and raids at least twice a week on a regular basis.
From what I have seen in this thread, the posters that tend to attack other people for their belief on WoW are not the WoW "haters" but the WoW lovers. Most of the anti-WoW posters are trying to get their points across in an intelligent fashion, while most of the pro-WoW players immediately take offense. They cannot seem to accept the fact that people can have opinions of their own. They are the people who are wrong, regardless of whatever facts they may blindly flail around. How many of WoW subscribers are gold farmers? How many are hackers? How many are some person's second or third account? How can we know for sure Blizzard truly has 6 million or so subscribers RIGHT NOW, and that this number is not the total number of unique accounts created since launch, regardless of whether people quit or not? You can blindly believe whatever Blizzard tells you because it will make you feel better about not having any legitimate opinion other than the fact that you think you're right and everyone else is wrong.
You are allowed to like World of Warcraft. There is nothing wrong with that. I don't HATE the game, I just think it rightfully doesn't belong at the top spot. Many people agree with this. By stating that World of Warcraft doesn't deserve the top spot, we are not arrogantly claiming that everything about WoW sucks. However, most of the pro-WoW posters on this thread seem to take offense to the slightest criticism directed in WoW's direction. I want to firstly thank all of the posters (both pro and anti WoW) who have posted intelligently in this thread. Whatever your opinion, as long as you post a legitimate argument as to why you like or dislike WoW, your post is worth reading.
Unfortunately, some people refuse to accept that WoW isnt loved by anyone, and we get repies such as these:
"WoW is the most popular
game, but also the most hated. a lot of people are jealous of WoW´s
success and give it low rates, altough not many will admit that."
"WoW still has 5 million + players, what a couple of joes and janes on MMORPG.com have to say means nothing." (Right, what seasoned MMORPG players have to say about an MMO means nothing...)
"The #1 Ranked MMO on this site (Eve) is not even in the top 10 in terms
of subscribers according to MMOGCHART.com, so that should show you
the correlation between this boards ratings and reality.
(So since runescape has more subscribers than EvE, its better? please)
And all of these comments come from the first page of this thread, so there are definitely a lot more.
I'm sick and tired of some of the posters on this thread who contribute nothing to the discussion, who merely log in to post something along the lines of "NO YOU'RE WRONG, WOW HAS OVER 5 MILLION SUBSCRIBERS SO ITS THE BEST AND YOU'RE ALL STUPID FOR THINKING OTHERWISE". Millions upon millions of people smoke cigarettes. Must mean that they're real dandy, right?
A thumbs up/down is the same as True/False. That is Quantitative data and should be interpreted as such. As my friend above stated it is EXACTLY the same as a binary 1 or 0 which, ironically, 1 is True 0 is False.
You have yet to backup your statements and still haven't proven to me you have a high school diploma.
Quantitative reivews: A review in which the end result is a number. Though there are facts within this review, the facts contribute to a true/false or a mean which make the review Quantitative data. (i.e. Because of good graphics, good quests, and good community, this game is given an 8.2 out of 10)
Qualitative Review: A review where the end result is subjective to an argument (i.e. Abraham Lincoln had a very excellent Foreign Policy given the fact he stoped Britain from establishing relations with the states in rebellion.)
Tell me how the quests, the leveling, the community, etc... of WoW are good (or to match whatever opinion you have of the game). Don't just point at a CGW or IGN review and say "This says it's good!" because those reviews are 1) Quantitative (No matter how much their reports make it want to have qualitative data, infact, reviews from most magazines provide littler to no qualitative data) and 2) are usually bought out (The author is payed money to write a good review or given good incentives).
Show me you have that Diploma and give a QUALITATIVE review (would you prefer Essay form, because Eassay form documents are QUALITATIVE reviews. I'm sure you've written a book report at some point or another) and stop shoving the "You guys are pathetic I'm better than all of you" attitude in everyones face. That attitude will get you fired from any job you will ever have and make you lose all hope on having good solid friends in real life.
Edit: Spelling Corrections, stupid 3am.
(1997) UO --> EQ -> Runescape -> DAoC -> WoW -> EVE + WAR (2008)
I think WoW has some 4 million players or something (saw it on xbox mag few months ago) so i think it's going strong population wise. I think ppl are bringing WoW down on this site because there is so much news about other games and so much information at one location that it's easy to take the opinions of a few and call it the opinion of many. I personally don't care about WoW, i was into for a while then i got out of it no big deal and i might try out the new expansion but doesnt really look like anything special to me yet.
A bunch of my friends that have not yet played MMOs say theyve heard really good things about WoW and even after i tell them all the bad aspects of the game, they still seem to want to play it. So maybe in the site ratings it might be sinking a bit but thats cuz many ppl here of played the crap out of that game and squeezed every bit of fun we could get out of it before leaving and making fun of the ppl still playing. The ppl still playing prolly find that the game still has more juice cuz they havent seen the criticizing going on on this site...
Which FF Character Are You?
Sir, what you have given as your evidence is quantitative not qualitative. The reason why no one could possibly care about your statistics is because you do not understand the difference between the two.
You give numbers and sales projections which happen to be quantitative forms of data. You have not given a single bit of qualitative data to backup your efforts at giving a successful retort.
Here are the qualitative facts on WoW:
Pros: Easy to pick up and play, fun and quick leveling system from 1-59, wonderful way to get in to the world of MMO gaming.
Cons: High Ratings were given BEFORE patches (No raitings have been given by magazines after patches for specific reasons) allowing for hype to be misleading, The Lore of the game is not consistant from patch to patch, the game leads you by the hand up to level 60, at level 60 if you don't have the free time you can not enjoy the larger extent of raid dungeons because of little kids running most guilds (with the little kids having more free time than the average gamer), gear dependent, Broken PVP system (Admitted by Blizzard)
WoW is a good game for a person wanting to pick up the hobby of MMO gaming, but for those of us who like a little more depth and thought to our MMO's (Seasoned MMO players) WoW turns out to be a persons worst nightmare come true.
I don't care how much the game sells or how many subscribers are on it. It's an easy game to pick up and nothing more and yes, they are losing subscribers now because all the casuals now have 60s. If burning crusade 1) doesn't come out soon or 2) fails to deliver or 3) Both 1 and 2 happens, the game will take a nose dive right in to the ground. There are no ifs ands or buts about it.
I dare you to write qualitative reasons (mentioning things other than subscriber numbers and crap like that) as to why people should play WoW. Give Pros and Cons, because quite frankly, no one will ever take your numbers serriously (or any of you WoW fanbois serriously for that matter)
ratings after patches...stfu, no one does that, research at gamespot bro...
ok, someone needs to deal with this....what is easy lvling? cuz you kill monsters and grind makes it harder?(think about that for a minute)
all games make you kill monsters or do tasks to make you lvl up, how does wow make it easier?
wow's mmo depth is serious, you cant just jump into a fight with onyxia and 39 other people and expect to know whats up..........same thing with sfk, ubrs, st, ToS, Ony Key Quest, lbrs ubrs key, 45min strat?!?. dm, totem quests, benediction, mounts!!!, quests that work, they're not from romania, they'tr from the US and not korean, wtf...
wow is the sickest mmo out....please, tell me of a better game in yur opinion....tell me why.
seriously, whats better, thats the question....
I don't recall crying. Just stating the facts are meaningless in recognition of value. You still have yet to use any logic at all in refuting a thing I said. You just keep saying, "Oh, well, the facts say this about the game..."
You aren't educating anyone. We knew what the "facts" were before you typed anything out. But it didn't change the fact that a growing number of people are finding WOW less than what the facts would supposedly indicate.
If you don't want to face the facts that some of us don't like WOW for reasons that you simply can't argue with, because they are about what we individually seek in a game, don't get upset with us. That's your problem.
Another bold statement unsupported by facts.
A thumbs up/down is the same as True/False. That is Quantitative data and should be interpreted as such. As my friend above stated it is EXACTLY the same as a binary 1 or 0 which, ironically, 1 is True 0 is False.
You have yet to backup your statements and still haven't proven to me you have a high school diploma.
Quantitative reivews: A review in which the end result is a number. Though there are facts within this review, the facts contribute to a true/false or a mean which make the review Quantitative data. (i.e. Because of good graphics, good quests, and good community, this game is given an 8.2 out of 10)
Qualitative Review: A review where the end result is subjective to an argument (i.e. Abraham Lincoln had a very excellent Foreign Policy given the fact he stoped Britain from establishing relations with the states in rebellion.)
Tell me how the quests, the leveling, the community, etc... of WoW are good (or to match whatever opinion you have of the game). Don't just point at a CGW or IGN review and say "This says it's good!" because those reviews are 1) Quantitative (No matter how much their reports make it want to have qualitative data, infact, reviews from most magazines provide littler to no qualitative data) and 2) are usually bought out (The author is payed money to write a good review or given good incentives).
Show me you have that Diploma and give a QUALITATIVE review (would you prefer Essay form, because Eassay form documents are QUALITATIVE reviews. I'm sure you've written a book report at some point or another) and stop shoving the "You guys are pathetic I'm better than all of you" attitude in everyones face. That attitude will get you fired from any job you will ever have and make you lose all hope on having good solid friends in real life.
Edit: Spelling Corrections, stupid 3am.
All I will say regarding your theory on a thumb's up or down review is LOL!
I was a good sport and listed a few items I found enjoyable with the game and instead of supporting your claims with facts you resort to childish attacks in a sad attempt to deflect that you don't have any. You really may want to ask yourself why it is you are so bitter with WOW's success.
Quantitative. "Thumbs up" and "thumbs down" are just like binary 1 and 0. They do not describe any sort of quality about a movie other than the general assessment that a person finds it good or bad. It's like saying dinner at someone's house was "bad". Why? The food? The conversation between guests? Your medical condition when going to dinner, or afterwards? What made it "bad"?
Actually, it's because you assert that numbers mean the game is "good". That's false. That's quantity, not quality.
What about WOW specifically makes it fun for you to play? What mechanics do you find about it that make it more enjoyable than any other MMO you have ever played?
Sadly, you also have no hard evidence they aren't, since no facts about that sort of thing are actually available to you. Kettle, meet pot.
However, we can make reasonable speculations about how WOW is doing. If it had 6.6 million at last count, and 4 million in China at last count, that leaves only 2.6 million for the rest of the world. If we were to guess around only 1 million subscribers everywhere else but the U.S., that leaves only 1.6 million here. Which is far, far, far less than before it opened in China.
The hard evidence you seem to want us to provide to support out statements is no more present than evidence to the contrary. How about before you jump us about having no evidence, you provide some better evidence yourself? Otherwise, your arguments have no more ground to stand on than ours. Other than the ratings you sputter and rant about, which, as it seems at least on MMORPG.COM, are slipping.
I'd hope you'd learn that value isn't absolute, but relative, but that is doubtful.
But how are they any different from other games? EQ2 has quests, crafting, AH, combat, mounts, story, and far more variety in classes and races. It also has housing. Other games have most or all of these things, too. What makes WOW better than them?
You just listed what you like. But there's still no meat on that bone. Most every MMO has quests, but what makes WOW so much better than others that would substantiate the ratings or sales?
As mentioned, neither of us have hard facts either way. I take what was given by Blizzard to provide a rough estimate. Now prove my estimate wrong.While I find your ignorance amusing, I have no choice but to point out how hopelessly out of touch you and the rest of the WOW haters really are.
Here is what Vivendi's annual report says on WOW's breakdown of customers:
January 2005 - WOW breaks all previous North America records with 600,000 active accounts in North America, Australia, South Korea, and New Zealand.
June 2005 - WOW is successfully launched in China.
September 2005 - WOW exceeds 4M subscribers with 1M in North America and 1.5M in China.
So let's examine what you said to show your true ignorance... You said:
"If we were to guess around only 1 million subscribers everywhere else but the U.S., that leaves only 1.6 million here. Which is far, far, far less than before it opened in China."
Now explain to me how 1.6M subscribers in North America is "far, far, far less than before it opened in China" when their own annual report showed they had 600k subscribers in North America BEFORE they launched in China and 1M in North America AFTER they launched in China.
Hopefully this exercise has shown those reading at home how out of touch these WOW haters really are.
No, please, tell us how you really feel.
May 18, 2005: WOW hits 1.5 million subscribers.
Sources: gamesindustry.biz, and PC Games (based on press releases from Blizzard, which don't go back that far, sadly)
June 14, 2005: WOW has surpassed 2 million subscribers, before launching in China. Consistant with what was last reported, given WOW's startling rise.
Sources: Gamasutra, and Blizzard itself.
July 21, 2005: WOW hits 3.5 million subscribers. 1.5 million in China alone, which leaves the rest of the world at the 2 million mark reached earlier.
Sources: Gamasutra, and Blizzard itself.
Strangely enough, however, both Blizzard, and GameSpot reports:
August 29, 2005: WOW hits 4 million subscribers... and that thare are "more than 1 million" in North America.
How can this be, Batman? It surpassed 2 million before launching in China, yet now it's apparently just a touch over 1 million now? Who can solve this puzzle?
Actually, that should be:
November 9, 2005: WOW hits 4.5 million.
Sources: Gamasutra, and Blizzard.
December 19, 2005: WOW hits 5 million.
Sources: Gamasutra, and Blizzard.
January 19, 2006: WOW hits more than 1 million in Europe, and has hit 5.5 million worldwide.
Sources: Blizzard
May 10, 2006: WOW hits 6.6 million worldwide by E3.
Sources: Blizzard
Well, given that they actually had 2 million subscribers in North America and a few other places at the time, and that that number is now 2.6 million (rough estimate), I find it hard to believe that there are less than 1 million subscribers in places other than China and the U.S.
So, again. 6.6 million - 4 million in China = 2.6 million. Now, unless the numbers got really fudged up, I'm willing to give everywhere else but the U.S. 1 million subscribers (though the complaining and whatnot heard from Australian/New Zealand would lead one to think that they equaled our numbers).
So, yeah. There's my numbers. I crunched what was there. You got anything better, go for it.
Hopefully, this exercise has shown those reading at home how to do basic research about a topic, so that you don't look like a horse's a** when you open your mouth to look like you know something about an issue.
Your turn.
I think it's right where it should be compared to the games above it. It was first MMO game that a friend talked me into playing. And I had some fun with it. But I didn't know what I was missing until I started playing DAoC and EQ2.
I'm having probably twice the fun in those games as I did with WoW.
It's a good gateway game. Because I'm not sure I would have understood DAoC or EQ2 if I hadn't played it first. But once you're ready to kick off the training wheels, there are some much more fun and complex games out there.
Ask yourself one question: If you were a company would you care more about what the majority of MMO players of one site thought or what the majority of TOTAL MMO players thought?
That depends on what I started my company for.
I think when Blizzard first started they were a company of gamers who wanted to make some fun games for gamers and make a decent living doing it. Now I think they're just a business. I don't think they care much about the true gamers anymore. I'm not putting down the casual player by saying that, I'm just trying to make a point of how their goals have changed as a company.
When I deal with Mythic I get a different feeling. With everything from gameplay to dealing with their customer service staff to the camelotherald.com reports that are posted, I get the feeling that they are a group of hardcore gamers that are sticking to their guns in making games for other hardcore gamers. Yeah, they're a business and they make money, but they are also having fun doing it. You can tell. At Blizzard it seems lately it's more just a robotic grind for the shareholders.
As far as EQ2 goes. They are in the same mode as Blizzard is. Everything is about business. But there is something in that game that is different. I don't know how to describe it. But someone on that staff knows what they're doing in designing that game. It's got some really innovative qualities to it. From the questing, to the voice acting, to the environments, all that stuff. And the community is really good too. So I cut their business model a little slack.
WoW serves it's purpose for the casual gamer. But for the people who frequent this site it's purpose obviously isn't what we're looking for as a group in general. We just expect more.
---------------------------------------
BTW, do you own stock in Blizzard or something? Because you seem to have this personal interest in propping them up. Going back and reading some of your stuff it's like you're defending your girlfriend or something.
=============================
It all seems so stupid
It makes me want to give up
But why should I give up
When it all seems so stupid
I think it's right where it should be compared to the games above it. It was first MMO game that a friend talked me into playing. And I had some fun with it. But I didn't know what I was missing until I started playing DAoC and EQ2.
I'm having probably twice the fun in those games as I did with WoW.
It's a good gateway game. Because I'm not sure I would have understood DAoC or EQ2 if I hadn't played it first. But once you're ready to kick off the training wheels, there are some much more fun and complex games out there.
Ask yourself one question: If you were a company would you care more about what the majority of MMO players of one site thought or what the majority of TOTAL MMO players thought?
That depends on what I started my company for.
I think when Blizzard first started they were a company of gamers who wanted to make some fun games for gamers and make a decent living doing it. Now I think they're just a business. I don't think they care much about the true gamers anymore. I'm not putting down the casual player by saying that, I'm just trying to make a point of how their goals have changed as a company.
When I deal with Mythic I get a different feeling. With everything from gameplay to dealing with their customer service staff to the camelotherald.com reports that are posted, I get the feeling that they are a group of hardcore gamers that are sticking to their guns in making games for other hardcore gamers. Yeah, they're a business and they make money, but they are also having fun doing it. You can tell. At Blizzard it seems lately it's more just a robotic grind for the shareholders.
As far as EQ2 goes. They are in the same mode as Blizzard is. Everything is about business. But there is something in that game that is different. I don't know how to describe it. But someone on that staff knows what they're doing in designing that game. It's got some really innovative qualities to it. From the questing, to the voice acting, to the environments, all that stuff. And the community is really good too. So I cut their business model a little slack.
WoW serves it's purpose for the casual gamer. But for the people who frequent this site it's purpose obviously isn't what we're looking for as a group in general. We just expect more.
---------------------------------------
BTW, do you own stock in Blizzard or something? Because you seem to have this personal interest in propping them up. Going back and reading some of your stuff it's like you're defending your girlfriend or something.
If you start a business only to please the folks on this board you wouldn't be in business long. As I previously pointed out IGN which is home to the most active MMO boards has WOW #1 by both their own review and readers reviews. The same can be said for Gamespot and other much bigger sites.
Not only do I not have any interest financially in Blizzard (or Vivendi) I no longer play WOW, the difference is I am man enough to admit WOW is a great game and is #1. The WOW haters on the other hand seem to simply just make up facts to try to support their opinions. I have no problem with someone's opinion that game X is better than game Y, I do have a problem with someone stating something like "WOW has far, far, far more North America subscribers before they launched in China" in an effort to paint the game in a negative light when they have absolutely no facts to back up this statement.
I seriously doubt any "official" reviews have been given by people playing the game all the way to level 60 and beyond. If I had given my review by what I had experienced in my first month of play I prolly would have rated it much higher than I did when I finally felt that I was qualified to do so. And that is for me the biggest problem with ratings, both "official" and reader ones. When are people qualified to give a sound rating of a game?
Forgive me if I insist on using facts to support my posts. To answer your question - Partly cloudy with a chance of rain
Ok that was pretty funny I admit, nice retort. Well played.
EDIT: I was specifically commenting on your posts in threads regarded to WoW as a success/failure, nothing else. WoW hit a homerun in regards to $, mostly attributable to the Warcraft name imo. Can't really debate that, what is very debatable to me and many others is whether or not it is ultimately a quality product.
Please try to undestand that when it had opened in the UK there was no way in the hottest part of Hell they got more than the 600,000 subs that North America had when it launched there.
No, actually, given that the release was 7 days after launch there, there is no way they could have accurate sales figures from that 1-week interval. I know you obviously know nothing about how businesses report sales totals, but anything said a week after something hits the shelf says nothing about the sales totals for a single week.
Unless you're willing to say that two weeks made a difference between a few hundred-thousand Chinese players, and 1.5 million of them.
You still aren't accounting for the fact there were at least 1.5 million before (and probably much more; their failure to report UK and other miscellaneous areas' sales would indicate they had not done entirely that well overseas, so I'm banking that they were pushing close to the 2 million mark in NA sales alone), and "over 1 million" after. Where did 500,000 accounts go? Perhaps you should enlist Scooby and the gang to search for those missing subscriptions.
As for the Vivendi annual report, which one? 2005's only indicates the 5 million subscribers for that year, and I see nothing for any of the 2004 reports supporting your claim. Perhaps you would be willing to do as I did cite a source, possibly even a page number? Because otherwise, you're just fabricating that one.
And if I really embarrassed myself, why are you still arguing the point? Hell, if I'm so wrong, why do you even try? I've provided a logical, reasonable amount of deductive reasoning and cited sources that let me to these conclusions.
You, on the otherhand, continue to belittle, insult, and generally act like an a** to anyone who confronts you on the issue. You haven't yet offered any actual reason as to why any of these numbers matter, but since you wanted them, I was more than willing to provide numbers showing a decline in WOW's numbers in the past 6 months (and perhaps beginning further back than that).
Are you gonna put something on the table there, or do you intend to hurl insult around all day?
WoW is not on the MMORPG.com top 7 list as of 18 June 2006, at 4:12 PST.
FACT:
The prior FACT is the context for this thread.
Why the bitterness, WoW defenders? It just oozes from your posts.
The Greyhammer Timeline (Games Played > 1 month)
1999 >-- Everquest -- Dark Age of Camelot -- Everquest -- Anarchy Online -- Everquest -- Star Wars Galaxies -- Final Fantasy XI -- Everquest -- World of Warcraft -- Everquest 2 -- EVE Online --> 2006
Playing Navy Field (www.navyfield.com) and waiting for Vanguard.
FACT: WOW is the #1 MMO on Gamespot.com, one of the largest gaming sites, with a 9.2 rating after 26,742 votes (compared to the 6k on MMO).
FACT: WOW is the #1 MMO on GameRankings.com, a site that compiles all the industry reviews of any given title, with a 91%.
No one is bitter that WOW isn't doing well on this site, the defenders just want to make sure it is clear that this site is a very small sampling of the MMO industry.
Yeah, it's too bad you're own counterargument is based on lack of the same data.
I guess we all just make up what we want to in our heads, huh?
You can't show me one source saying that they didn't have more NA subscribers before they launched worldwide. So all you can do is speculate and provide articles that talk about Worldwide subscribers.
Round and round and round it goes, where it stops, no one knowns...
So they got a week's sales, translated, sent to Blizzard, and pressed into a release in 7 days?
You have a mighty interesting view of the efficiency of retail companies. Too bad it bears no resemblence to reality, since no retailer has ever displayed such aggressive, total efficiency in reporting sales numbers.
Besides, you can't prove anything yourself anyway. Show me the actual numbers on first-week China sales, and I'd be inclined to believe you.
Otherwise, you're guilty of the same thing you accuse me of.
You still have no facts to back up your own statements, either. I at least cited some sources. Are you just incapable or unwilling to do the same?
Actually, that was page 18. Page 19 has the rest of the normal press release stuff.
So, in January, it was 600,000, and in September it has the August info.
I never argued about January. I'm just curious what happened in the following part of the year. Something you seem to keep avoiding.
You still haven't explained where all the players went. You're actually telling me that from January to September, for about 9 months, there was no more than 400,000 extra subscribers? Even while millions were being added everywhere else?
Man, if you have sense for numbers like this, I am sorry... that you can't see the discrepancy in sales here. And that you can't see that they deliberately did not report the numbers more accurately because they weren't that good for their NA sales.
Are you gonna wake up and smell the coffee today anytime? Blizzard has acted with deliberate consideration in not letting anyone know what the actual numbers are. I still have yet to see you account for the utter lack of sales in NA for at least the past year, and you simply act like you don't even see that one. You nick-pick over numbers you yourself don't have any access to, so nothing you've said here has any basis in fact.
You did exactly what you accused others of doing: miscontruing the few facts that were there to support an opinion, rather than a factual statement. You still haven't proven or disproven anything, and the simple fact is, you cannot. You can't because there are no facts, no more than I've dug up for you to rearrange as you want.
Either offer a reasonable attempt at argument, or just tell me you aren't going to so I don't feel compelled to argue with an inexperienced, unreasonable child.
This site is quite a bit more focused on what makes a good MMORPG than the two sites you mentioned. After all, this is MMORPG.com. I don't care what GAMERS think makes a good MMORPG. I care what MMORPGers think makes a good MMORPG. And this site is the best focus group for that effort.
The Greyhammer Timeline (Games Played > 1 month)
1999 >-- Everquest -- Dark Age of Camelot -- Everquest -- Anarchy Online -- Everquest -- Star Wars Galaxies -- Final Fantasy XI -- Everquest -- World of Warcraft -- Everquest 2 -- EVE Online --> 2006
Playing Navy Field (www.navyfield.com) and waiting for Vanguard.
So they got a week's sales, translated, sent to Blizzard, and pressed into a release in 7 days?
You have a mighty interesting view of the efficiency of retail companies. Too bad it bears no resemblence to reality, since no retailer has ever displayed such aggressive, total efficiency in reporting sales numbers.
Of course they do. You have heard of computerised inventories I assume.
Big retailers all have online stock control, the till's are all smart. They know exactly how many of each unit is sold from where, to who (if you paid by credit card) and at what time (bar code readers). For chain stores this data relays to a central ordering office in real time which orders more.
The amount of data mining my local supermarket does on it's customers is legendary. They know what my favourite foods are, what times of the week and year I prefer them, which shops I have visited, what bargains I go for, and not just me, millions of others all personally profiled in real time.
Large distributors/publishers pay thousands of pounds a year to market research companies to keep them abridged of current trends. Just like Charts for Pop music and movies, they compile game charts based on the sales numbers given to them weekly by a selection of the biggest retail outlets. All game companies, not just Blizzard have access to and pay high attention to the game charts on a weekly if not daily basis.
.
.
WoW is still a top ten seller on shelves in Europe. It may well have dropped from North America. Boxes on shelves is the key to major sales. When the box losses it's shop shelf presence, you should expect the subscription numbers to reflect this. consequently, the expansion pack this christmas is going to set it all off again. Even in North America. Expect a Blizzard of new sales records. You haven't seen anything yet.
Pride7,
I need to mention to you that subcribers don't mean that they are all active. A subscriber account can be innactive yet still a subscriber all the same. If you look at news reports. The last actual report on active subcribers came from Blizzard Entertainment Ltd. at about 1.5mil. Since then, they have only listed subcribers as accounts as opposed to accounts active. (Ovbiously quantitative data is the only way to get through to you)
Blizzard fails to mention how many people they have on at a single time per server.
Also, you have not given your qualitative pros and cons response yet. I'm still waiting for that lovely post which will contain your actual oppinion as opposed to the oppinions of others.
Get out of your 10 year old "everything I think is what everyone else should think" attitude. Many people are disgusted by World of Warcraft now, especially those in the actual gaming community. Take a hint, a game could have all the good reviews it could get, however the game only got one major Game of the Year award and that was from Gamespot. ONLY ONE GOTY AWARD! Is it possible people are reviewing the game the way it should be reviewed? Oh my gosh!
So when you point at reviews to try and prove to us that you have evidence as to why WoW is the best game out there, just remember. It only won ONE game of the year award from an internet site out of several hundreds of magazines and internet sites out there that give out game of the year awards. (Link to awards source: http://www.blizzard.com/inblizz/awards.shtml)
Ciao!
Edit: Made a few typos
(1997) UO --> EQ -> Runescape -> DAoC -> WoW -> EVE + WAR (2008)