Originally posted by GalaxyClass I have played WOW since beta and just stopped last month. I played on 3 different servers, though 85% of my time has been on my last one, which I logged the most hours. I was lucky enough to find a good server and a great bunch of people to play with, was a member of the best guild on the server (in our eyes at least) and was lucky enough to be the first people in our faction to clear all the major instances; Molten Core, Blackrock mountain etc. Anyone who says the game is easy, just because leveling to 60 doesn’t take a year of pain in the ass grinding is a fool. High level instances n the game are great fun to learn and takes a lot of very dedicated people to complete. The pvp is also great fun; will raiding a town or in grouped battlegrounds.
I have no problem with people having different opinions on things, but most of the hatred towards this game (even though it is still has 5 times as any players as other MMO's) comes from people who I think fall into one of the following categories.
- First. They haven’t played the game at all. They think playing popular games, watching popular movies, listing to popular music or reading popular books is wrong and that anything popular has to be bad and because they want the perception that there 'cool' for being 'unlike' the masses.
- or second. They played the game, but were so bad at it. Either bad, or were so ignorant no respectable guild would give them the time of day so they had no chance to do all the fun and changeling things end game WOW has to offer.
I loved WOW. I still think it is the best MMO to ever be put out, I simply had my fill.
[Edit] I'm back playing Lineage 2
I'm sorry, but to classify people in to those two slots shows you have a narrow mind.
Put this in to perspective. I play both WoW and EVE and I run the guild I am in for WoW. WoW is very, very easy and is very hard to be "Bad" at. The reason why people bash WoW is because it got all these rave reviews in the beggining, yet it has offered nothing new in 2 years. I was so happy once I got to level 60, then I discovered that all you had left in the game....was to grind MC, Onyxia, and other things, and that required a size of guild which neither myself, nor my guild members wanted to have. As i said earlier. If it wasn't for my friends (and my girlfriend) I would have quit and become a fully dedicated EVE player. I have played WoW since it came out and I think someone else put it best "WoW is an MMORPG on Training Wheels".
(1997) UO --> EQ -> Runescape -> DAoC -> WoW -> EVE + WAR (2008)
I have played WOW since beta and just stopped last month. I played on 3 different servers, though 85% of my time has been on my last one, which I logged the most hours. I was lucky enough to find a good server and a great bunch of people to play with, was a member of the best guild on the server (in our eyes at least) and was lucky enough to be the first people in our faction to clear all the major instances; Molten Core, Blackrock mountain etc. Anyone who says the game is easy, just because leveling to 60 doesn’t take a year of pain in the ass grinding is a fool. High level instances n the game are great fun to learn and takes a lot of very dedicated people to complete. The pvp is also great fun; will raiding a town or in grouped battlegrounds.
I have no problem with people having different opinions on things, but most of the hatred towards this game (even though it is still has 5 times as any players as other MMO's) comes from people who I think fall into one of the following categories.
- First. They haven’t played the game at all. They think playing popular games, watching popular movies, listing to popular music or reading popular books is wrong and that anything popular has to be bad and because they want the perception that there 'cool' for being 'unlike' the masses.
- or second. They played the game, but were so bad at it. Either bad, or were so ignorant no respectable guild would give them the time of day so they had no chance to do all the fun and changeling things end game WOW has to offer.
I loved WOW. I still think it is the best MMO to ever be put out, I simply had my fill.
[Edit] I'm back playing Lineage 2
I'm sorry but your post makes you seem like the exact blind WoW fanboy that everyone is complaining about. Let me just go out and say right now that I have played WoW. I did obtain level 60. And I was a part of a serious raiding guild that did Onyxia, ZG, MC, BWL, and AQ on a regular basis. I quit playing WoW just around the time that AQ came out, but I did raid Onyxia, ZG, MC, and BWL quite frequently, so I am very familiar with how the game is in said content. I don't know how in the world you think any of those high level instances are fun, unless you've only attempted them once or twice. Sure, the first few times they are fun since its new and your discovering new things. However, to obtain your full tier 1 or tier 2, you need to raid the same instances over and over and over. Quite frankly, it is a completely idiotic system that only exists because it keeps players playing longer, and thus they keep paying the monthly fee. Not only are raids boring, but they take an incredibly large amount of time (especially if you're in a guild using DKP, then you basically must show up for every single raid, or there's little chance of you ever getting any loot you really want).
Now let me address the two "points" you made, which are incredibly off.
The first point you made is that most people who hate WoW have never even played it. I don't know where you come up with this, but the fact that Blizzard claims that 6+ million people play WoW (you even use the fact that WoW has a large population to further your own point), with about 1/2 of those subscribers coming from North America leads me to believe that, yes, most people who hate WoW have played it and know exactly what awaits them after level 60. If not, then they most likely know someone who's played it. Many, many people have played WoW and then quit, because gaining levels is quite fun, that I will admit. However, basically all of the content post-60 is incredibly boring and tedious. So, if anything, it is not the WoW haters who are ignorant, but the WoW supporters who are. I'm pretty sure that most of the people who "love" WoW (not all) have yet to hit level 60 and are unaware of the lackluster endgame that awaits them.
Your second point highlights another negative element in the WoW gameplay. The fact that guilds are a necessity to further your character after level 60. To be forced to guild in order to have any sort of "fun" (note the quotation marks) severely segregates the WoW community between the "powergamers" that can afford to play several hours a day, and the casual gamers that would rather play less than an hour a day. There is no way that a causal gamer would ever be accepted into a serious raiding guild, due to the fact that they simply cannot make the time commitment required to raid in WoW (or if they were to be accepted, they would never get around to actually raiding). This, again, has nothing to do with player skill or being "bad at the game".
Now I understand that you stopped playing the game not because you disliked it, but simply because you "had your fill". WoW has been out for about 1 and a half years. If an MMO cannot retain its original player base for longer than this, then there is definitely something turning people away. Blizzard can flaunt subscription numbers and whatnot to impess the media, but I would like to see Blizzard show us how many players which set up an account in the first month of WoW still play. I'm willing to wager that a fairly large amout of original players have already quit.
The fact that World of Warcraft has the largest player base of any mainstream, pay-to-play MMORPG is not a fact that supports in anyway the idea that it is the "best". I would be willing to bet that at least one million of WoW subscribers have never played an MMO before. In fact, I can guarantee it, since the "Big Three" North American MMO's at their peaks (Ultima Online, Everquest, and Asheron's Call) combined did not have 4 millon subscribers. Therefore, all of these extra players are playing WoW as their first MMO's, and as I've been saying over and over, they have no accurate gauge over what makes a good MMORPG.
I tried to play WOW. I tried to enjoy it. But to me there was nothing in that game that hasn't been done before. All it is to me is an addiction. Like crack, it isn't good for you, but for those with little to no social life, it feels like home. The MMO region needs something fresh. I cannot wait until Uru Live comes back. No more hack, slash, farm, level, then repeat. You'll see. I've played a lot of MMO's and you cannot tell me that ANY of the MMO's you've mentioned have anything really stellar to sell to mass audiences.
Originally posted by vormaen I tried to play WOW. I tried to enjoy it. But to me there was nothing in that game that hasn't been done before. All it is to me is an addiction. Like crack, it isn't good for you, but for those with little to no social life, it feels like home. The MMO region needs something fresh. I cannot wait until Uru Live comes back. No more hack, slash, farm, level, then repeat. You'll see. I've played a lot of MMO's and you cannot tell me that ANY of the MMO's you've mentioned have anything really stellar to sell to mass audiences.
Uru Live and Spore (Though not an MMO) will keep me busy for months >.>
(1997) UO --> EQ -> Runescape -> DAoC -> WoW -> EVE + WAR (2008)
in my opinion, wow is one of the Top 5 MMORPGs! GW and GW:F for example needs to be kicked out of the Top10. The reason why WoW is no more in the Top10: So many players that don't know how a MMORPG works. They are singel players or Counterstrike rul0rs and so they hate this game after a while. But they never tried an other MMORPG. For me, playing WoW sice Beta, it has to be No.1
Originally posted by Rokan The first MMO I really got into was FFXI, being a fan of the Square games of yore. The inablity to access the endgame without speaking fluent Japanese,
For me that was the biggest sales point of this game.
Not just the Japanese but also the French German and Spanish. The multi-culturalism of that game was excellent and provided a brilliant platform for language practise.
Reviews of MMO Games are Fundamentally Flawed Posted Jun 1st 2005 10:55AM by Vladimir Cole
Blizzard's World of Warcraft game has received high marks from all of the gaming publications for its ease of use and for its newbie-friendly game design, but there's a fatal flaw in these reviews. They invariably focus on the early experience because it takes several months before players are able to reach the level at which they are ready for the so-called "end-game content."
About as fundamentally flawed as only listening to people who have played the game for so long that they have become bored with it.
Originally posted by varius Originally posted by GalaxyClass
I don't know where you come up with this, but the fact that Blizzard claims that 6+ million people play WoW (you even use the fact that WoW has a large population to further your own point), with about 1/2 of those subscribers coming from North America leads me to believe that, yes, most people who hate WoW have played it and know exactly what awaits them after level 60.
About 1/5 of them come from North America. 1/6 from Europe and 2/3 from China.
Reviews of MMO Games are Fundamentally Flawed Posted Jun 1st 2005 10:55AM by Vladimir Cole
Blizzard's World of Warcraft game has received high marks from all of the gaming publications for its ease of use and for its newbie-friendly game design, but there's a fatal flaw in these reviews. They invariably focus on the early experience because it takes several months before players are able to reach the level at which they are ready for the so-called "end-game content."
About as fundamentally flawed as only listening to people who have played the game for so long that they have become bored with it.
Very true Baff,
However I would argue that in WoW's case for the average MMORPG gamer it only takes 1 or 2, maybe 3 at the outside, months to reach that state. The MMORPG "newbies" take longer but even they eventually get to the point where WoW is at 'end game' and most folks that reach it can only stand it for a short period of time before the nature of WoW's "end game" (lack of content, mostly) drives them to look for new games.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by LSDMiraculix in my opinion, wow is one of the Top 5 MMORPGs! GW and GW:F for example needs to be kicked out of the Top10. The reason why WoW is no more in the Top10: So many players that don't know how a MMORPG works. They are singel players or Counterstrike rul0rs and so they hate this game after a while. But they never tried an other MMORPG. For me, playing WoW sice Beta, it has to be No.1
Wrong ! , its no longer in the top 10 because the people who do know how a MMORPG works see WoW as just a shallow MMO, No Meaningful PvP, nothing that assists Roleplay (The RPG part of MMORPG), stunted crafted, endless faction grinds, no fluff such as housing/armor customization and probably the worst community out there. It is a fun game, I wouldn't have played it for 18months if it weren't but its at best MMORPG 'Lite' or worst an MMOFPS.
Wrong ! , its no longer in the top 10 because the people who do know how a MMORPG works see WoW as just a shallow MMO, No Meaningful PvP, nothing that assists Roleplay (The RPG part of MMORPG), stunted crafted, endless faction grinds, no fluff such as housing/armor customization and probably the worst community out there. It is a fun game, I wouldn't have played it for 18months if it weren't but its at best MMORPG 'Lite' or worst an MMOFPS.
but do u realy think, GW or GW:F is an better MMORPG? It's just in the Top 10 because they doesn't have so many haters. Housing, open PvP and the PvP Sytem are realy minus points of WoW but Blizzard will change this with Burning Crus. Just like they did with solo content because the communtiy wanted this. btw: I play on an EU PvE Server an the community isn't bad on Horde site
I dont like WoW,u by the game an u have to pay 15$
Whenever i step outside, somebody claims to see the light It seems to me that all of us have lost our patience. 'cause everyone thinks they're right, And nobody thinks that there just might Be more than one road to our final destination--
Wrong ! , its no longer in the top 10 because the people who do know how a MMORPG works see WoW as just a shallow MMO, No Meaningful PvP, nothing that assists Roleplay (The RPG part of MMORPG), stunted crafted, endless faction grinds, no fluff such as housing/armor customization and probably the worst community out there. It is a fun game, I wouldn't have played it for 18months if it weren't but its at best MMORPG 'Lite' or worst an MMOFPS.
but do u realy think, GW or GW:F is an better MMORPG? It's just in the Top 10 because they doesn't have so many haters. Housing, open PvP and the PvP Sytem are realy minus points of WoW but Blizzard will change this with Burning Crus. Just like they did with solo content because the communtiy wanted this. btw: I play on an EU PvE Server an the community isn't bad on Horde site
Actually it would mean that they have a larger percentage of people who like them verses people who dislike them than WoW does...
Wouldn't that, by definition, make them a more popular game? All the ratings on this site really indicate is how POPULAR a game is... has nothing to do with quality whatsoever. And, frankly, as far as Quality goes.... WoW isn't all that great. It's ok... but definitely not in the top 5 "QUALITY" wise, imo.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
I have never unsderstood why newbs always say add more mid lvl content to world of warcraft.. the game is bloody ez mode for geting to lvl 60, if you cant get to lvl 60 in wow you are not a real mmorpg player most mmorpgs call for a ton more grinding and play time to reach the high levels than wow does. They give u a million quests to do rested exp they basicaly hand you lvl 60 its designed so casuals can make lvl 60.
My complaint is they need to add more solo content or small instance 5-10 ppl not 40, the 1 solo acomplishment is pvp ranks but I am already a high warlord, my guildd downs rag/nef/cthun every week and I raid with them but its scheduled days tues/fri/sat aside from those raids I find myself with nothign to do in wow I wish ther ewas more small instance content that I could get there just isnt anythign worth geting anymore.
i ve pretty much seen that "fall from grace" coming honestly.
WoW tries to please everyone but in the end doesn t really innovate or succeed with anything.
- for Hardcore gamers WoW is simply too easy, and other games offer a more in depth raidgame. - for PvPers the impact of PvP is way too low and also PvP is way too dependant on gear, as opposed to player skill. - it s a great game for casual gamers, that is from 1 to 59.... at lvl 60 the game just beats them down and kicks them when they re on the ground.
the argument that it gets low ratings because of the Eve players on this board is kinda moot.... Eve and other MMo players have been here for years and WoW had good ratings before. The current drop of it s ratings is something new... and imho is very likely directly related to the increasing number of casual gamers reaching lvl 60 and hitting the "raid wall". if Blizzard didn t see it coming then they got their head stuck somewhere way dark ....
Originally posted by the420kid I have never unsderstood why newbs always say add more mid lvl content to world of warcraft.. the game is bloody ez mode for geting to lvl 60, if you cant get to lvl 60 in wow you are not a real mmorpg player most mmorpgs call for a ton more grinding and play time to reach the high levels than wow does. They give u a million quests to do rested exp they basicaly hand you lvl 60 its designed so casuals can make lvl 60. My complaint is they need to add more solo content or small instance 5-10 ppl not 40, the 1 solo acomplishment is pvp ranks but I am already a high warlord, my guildd downs rag/nef/cthun every week and I raid with them but its scheduled days tues/fri/sat aside from those raids I find myself with nothign to do in wow I wish ther ewas more small instance content that I could get there just isnt anythign worth geting anymore.
If you can't get to level 60 in WoW then you have no arms, no legs, no eyes, no ears, no sensory nerves, and no brain.
If any of those body parts are returned to you (and I do mean any of them) then you would have the necessary resources to get to level 60 with no problem whatsoever.
They need to start two new servers that instead of being PvP, or RP, or any of the others they have listed now, they instead label as "Normal Difficulty" and "Hard Difficulty".
Originally posted by Elnator Actually it would mean that they have a larger percentage of people who like them verses people who dislike them than WoW does...
Wouldn't that, by definition, make them a more popular game? All the ratings on this site really indicate is how POPULAR a game is... has nothing to do with quality whatsoever. And, frankly, as far as Quality goes.... WoW isn't all that great. It's ok... but definitely not in the top 5 "QUALITY" wise, imo.
Popular come from populous.
To be the most popular you must have the most people who like it.
The ratio of people who like it versus people who don't may well be a factor of that poll, but not of it's popularity.
I was under the impression that Guild Wars attracted every bit as much scorn as WoW round here. Personally I think Guild Wars is also a quality game.
I think WoW is defintely in the top 5 for "quality". For me, it's the number 1 quality MMO on the market. (I haven't tried them all). It's not however the MMO I most enjoyed playing (although it may well be in the top 5).
I consider it to be quality because.....
It functions very well. It isn't bug ridden. It has more programmed features than any other MMO I have seen. It's well maintained and has a high frequency of updates. The art is well themed and fits together nicely. The game is well balanced. The packaging is good. The servers are localised. it's very scaleable and plays well on a wide range of systems. Updates get thoroughly tested before release. That sort of thing. I don't have to enjoy a product to recognise the quality.
Examples, Mercedes make high quality cars, but I prefer Lexus. Levi's make high quality jeans, but I don't like jeans. Bullet trains are engineering marvels, but I like to fly.
I haven't seen a finer example of game programming for some time. There is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that WoW is in a league of it's own for quality amongst MMO's.
If you can't get to level 60 in WoW then you have no arms, no legs, no eyes, no ears, no sensory nerves, and no brain.
I have all those things, and I never made it to 60. What I didn't have, was enough tolerance to look at thoose goofy characters even one more time, or the patience to sit though one more annoying uninteresting quest that had no relevance to the world my character was in.
If you can't get to level 60 in WoW then you have no arms, no legs, no eyes, no ears, no sensory nerves, and no brain.
I have all those things, and I never made it to 60. What I didn't have, was enough tolerance to look at thoose goofy characters even one more time, or the patience to sit though one more annoying uninteresting quest that had no relevance to the world my character was in.
You're absolutely right. I apologize. I left one thing out.
...you must have the ability to numb your mind to the disparity between WoW and having fun.
Originally posted by baff It functions very well. It isn't bug ridden. It has more programmed features than any other MMO I have seen. It's well maintained and has a high frequency of updates. The art is well themed and fits together nicely. The game is well balanced. The packaging is good. The servers are localised. it's very scaleable and plays well on a wide range of systems. Updates get thoroughly tested before release. That sort of thing. I don't have to enjoy a product to recognise the quality.
what you mean with "It has more programmed features than any other MMO I have seen"? that devs have a lot scheduled to add to the game? or that when you go to the "Features" page on the gamesite it lists a lot of goodies?
anyway, you posted a quite complete review of the game. only the part about balance belongs to gameplay. i dont think you would be able to sell the game you are describing to anybody only with the things you said. the packaging is good? what's that?
why dont you speak about crafting? or pvp? or freedom? or politics? or economy? or death penalties? or endgame? or posibilities? something meaningful, something interesting. what you described is just a good programmed game, not a good game.
it is like the difference between a great book, and a correct book. you can say anything you want about the cover, and the nice colorful ilustrations on the middle pages, and how easy to read the font is, and the quality of the paper, and that it aint got any typos or grammar errors, and how good the translation is, and the size of the book is perfect cause it fits nicely on your suitcase. but all that doesnt make a good book, indeed, if that is all you can say about a book, i will not buy it for sure.
Similarly, I will not buy a book that is falling apart for a premium price. If it's on the shelf, it needs to be of a certain quality. Not just in appearnce but also in literary style. The author must write coherently and must practise all the craft necessary to make great art. Jackson Pollock is no Michelangelo.
I was just describing the aspect of the game pertaining to quality. I don't seek to portray WoW as the most fun I have ever had in an MMO, but I do believe in credit where credit is due. It's high standard of quality and innovation is one of the reasons I liked the game. Technical achievement in games is something I look out for while I play.
In the same vein the astounding graphics in Far Cry or the marvellous server limits in Eve greatly enhanced my enjoyment of those games.
Balance for me is a quality issue. It is something that should be ironed out before the game launches or before a patch is released. For example the mid game nerfs in COH or the introduction of BFR's in Planetside (and perhaps SWGs CU) greatly lowered my enjoyment of those games.
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Crafting for me was essentially part of the endgame, it added another hundred or so hours of intrest. The craft quests were fun to play and the resource gathering drove the economy. Some crafts were more useful to character advancement than others. The implementation was the best yet, I especially liked the trade window where you can let other people enhance your equipment without it ever leaving your possesion. How many times have you been ripped off like that in other games?
The economy was excellently implemented with the auction houses and mailbox systems. I especially liked that you could mail things to your alts, thereby eliminating the expensive need for mule accounts. Auctions could be exciting and taught me how to use Ebay better. There was a lively trade circuit to be found in the capitals, complete with full time traders and bankers. The ability to view an items properties by hyper link from the chat window and also to "virtually" try it on to see what it looks like on you and how it affects your stats was yet another great implementation to this area of the game.
I enjoyed my time spent at lvl 60 more than the rest of game, I felt I had more freedom to explore and had not seen most of the content until then. Although I never finished all of the lvl 60 instances I was pleased to see that they constantly added to them to keep endgame material growing. If you are the type of person that is truely a mindless grinder, immensley timesinking advancements are still available through crafting, PvP and Raiding. There is no reason for your advancement ever to reach a limit.
I'm not especially keen on PvP, but I thought the gametypes found in the battlegrounds were a great addition, I also enjoyed the immersion of accidently joinng an army on the march. Very Orc, and raiding an enemy capital on the otherside of the world with a big army at lvl 25 was very exciting also. I thought it very well done how you could advance your character equally fast through PvP (faster for reputation) and that PvP provided a seperate tree of items (more powerful than the ones found in PvE), I felt this gave the game greater flexibility in playstyles. I like varied gameplay and I like the diversity of players this brings.
Death penalties were milder than I was used to (or prefer), but entertainingly implemented. Now that the game has been around for long enough, I would like to see some Hardcore/permadeath servers, to add to the replayability.
The only politics I noticed were Clan politics and I didn't/don't enjoy them. In other games I have found politics to be much more inhibiting to the people I am allowed to play with. In Games such as Matrix the game will penalise you for playing with other factions, and so friends made before becoming political must be abandoned. This is still a problem in WoW, if your friend has started a alliance and you a horde, one of you must start again or you will never play together, but less so than in many other games. The great fun implementaion here (WoW is simply full of them) was the is the use of language. You can't communicate with the enemy faction they speaks gobbledygook. The politics of hardcare PvP or Raid clans are likewise as unpleasant as you might expect from any group of gamers taking life too seriously. I saw people fall out a lot in these circumsatnces and give up playing. The game has plenty of other content to do and advancements to gain without being forced to play this way if you do not so wish. you may not gain the ultimate uber kit of fabulousness, but you have ample access to all you need to go anywhere and do anything.
The opportunity for roleplay was everpresent, both in gameplay terms (within the group I play the role of a tank) and in acting terms (I am an orc I like war, the colour green, axes, expensive shirts and Halfling women).
I hope i affend no1, but WoW sucks, who wants to pay 15$ a month of a game u by from the store....
Get guild wars, dont tell me it gets borin (well ever game gets borin after along time) there is more to do then ppl think. U also feel free on gw u dont have no trouble urslef like WoW, u dont have to worry about money u dont feel u sould get on it becuase ur payin then when u quit u have to cancle the fee. Then when u want to play u have to pay even if u barly want to play. Gw is alot better. I pick gw over WoW anyday,
Dont yell at me im just stackin my opinion (its a good point im not lieing)
1 more thing not sayin WoW is crap just over time it gets really borin, once ur reach the highest lvl there is nothin to do. Yes it is fun while it last
Whenever i step outside, somebody claims to see the light It seems to me that all of us have lost our patience. 'cause everyone thinks they're right, And nobody thinks that there just might Be more than one road to our final destination--
Originally posted by baff Similarly, I will not buy a book that is falling apart for a premium price. If it's on the shelf, it needs to be of a certain quality. Not just in appearnce but also in literary style. The author must write coherently and must practise all the craft necessary to make great art. Jackson Pollock is no Michelangelo.I was just describing the aspect of the game pertaining to quality. I don't seek to portray WoW as the most fun I have ever had in an MMO, but I do believe in credit where credit is due. It's high standard of quality and innovation is one of the reasons I liked the game. Technical achievement in games is something I look out for while I play. In the same vein the astounding graphics in Far Cry or the marvellous server limits in Eve greatly enhanced my enjoyment of those games. Balance for me is a quality issue. It is something that should be ironed out before the game launches or before a patch is released. For example the mid game nerfs in COH or the introduction of BFR's in Planetside (and perhaps SWGs CU) greatly lowered my enjoyment of those games. . . Crafting for me was essentially part of the endgame, it added another hundred or so hours of intrest. The craft quests were fun to play and the resource gathering drove the economy. Some crafts were more useful to character advancement than others. The implementation was the best yet, I especially liked the trade window where you can let other people enhance your equipment without it ever leaving your possesion. How many times have you been ripped off like that in other games? The economy was excellently implemented with the auction houses and mailbox systems. I especially liked that you could mail things to your alts, thereby eliminating the expensive need for mule accounts. Auctions could be exciting and taught me how to use Ebay better. There was a lively trade circuit to be found in the capitals, complete with full time traders and bankers. The ability to view an items properties by hyper link from the chat window and also to "virtually" try it on to see what it looks like on you and how it affects your stats was yet another great implementation to this area of the game. I enjoyed my time spent at lvl 60 more than the rest of game, I felt I had more freedom to explore and had not seen most of the content until then. Although I never finished all of the lvl 60 instances I was pleased to see that they constantly added to them to keep endgame material growing. If you are the type of person that is truely a mindless grinder, immensley timesinking advancements are still available through crafting, PvP and Raiding. There is no reason for your advancement ever to reach a limit. I'm not especially keen on PvP, but I thought the gametypes found in the battlegrounds were a great addition, I also enjoyed the immersion of accidently joinng an army on the march. Very Orc, and raiding an enemy capital on the otherside of the world with a big army at lvl 25 was very exciting also. I thought it very well done how you could advance your character equally fast through PvP (faster for reputation) and that PvP provided a seperate tree of items (more powerful than the ones found in PvE), I felt this gave the game greater flexibility in playstyles. I like varied gameplay and I like the diversity of players this brings. Death penalties were milder than I was used to (or prefer), but entertainingly implemented. Now that the game has been around for long enough, I would like to see some Hardcore/permadeath servers, to add to the replayability. The only politics I noticed were Clan politics and I didn't/don't enjoy them. In other games I have found politics to be much more inhibiting to the people I am allowed to play with. In Games such as Matrix the game will penalise you for playing with other factions, and so friends made before becoming political must be abandoned. This is still a problem in WoW, if your friend has started a alliance and you a horde, one of you must start again or you will never play together, but less so than in many other games. The great fun implementaion here (WoW is simply full of them) was the is the use of language. You can't communicate with the enemy faction they speaks gobbledygook. The politics of hardcare PvP or Raid clans are likewise as unpleasant as you might expect from any group of gamers taking life too seriously. I saw people fall out a lot in these circumsatnces and give up playing. The game has plenty of other content to do and advancements to gain without being forced to play this way if you do not so wish. you may not gain the ultimate uber kit of fabulousness, but you have ample access to all you need to go anywhere and do anything. The opportunity for roleplay was everpresent, both in gameplay terms (within the group I play the role of a tank) and in acting terms (I am an orc I like war, the colour green, axes, expensive shirts and Halfling women).
wow man, i dont know why it took you so long to finally post something really with substance and not just sales numbers or flames. very good post, although i disagree completely
guys...no one cares that yall dont like wow....the only reason the ratings of wow is dropping is because all these noobs to mmo's are coming here to find out what the next shit is; however, wow is the hottest shit....
if you dont like the void of space(eve), theres nothing thats better than wow....ao, coh, lin2, guildwars, and etc.
i dont even see the argument....and wow was not my first mmo, so stop being snobs.
we're not bein snobs u souldnt be a snoob ur insultin us for tell us are opinion. i said i dont want to affend any1, cant u read, an WoW doesnt suck its just not worth pay, cant we stake our own opinion. u have no rite to say are opinions arent worth lookin at.
Whenever i step outside, somebody claims to see the light It seems to me that all of us have lost our patience. 'cause everyone thinks they're right, And nobody thinks that there just might Be more than one road to our final destination--
Comments
I'm sorry, but to classify people in to those two slots shows you have a narrow mind.
Put this in to perspective. I play both WoW and EVE and I run the guild I am in for WoW. WoW is very, very easy and is very hard to be "Bad" at. The reason why people bash WoW is because it got all these rave reviews in the beggining, yet it has offered nothing new in 2 years. I was so happy once I got to level 60, then I discovered that all you had left in the game....was to grind MC, Onyxia, and other things, and that required a size of guild which neither myself, nor my guild members wanted to have. As i said earlier. If it wasn't for my friends (and my girlfriend) I would have quit and become a fully dedicated EVE player. I have played WoW since it came out and I think someone else put it best "WoW is an MMORPG on Training Wheels".
(1997) UO --> EQ -> Runescape -> DAoC -> WoW -> EVE + WAR (2008)
Now let me address the two "points" you made, which are incredibly off.
The first point you made is that most people who hate WoW have never even played it. I don't know where you come up with this, but the fact that Blizzard claims that 6+ million people play WoW (you even use the fact that WoW has a large population to further your own point), with about 1/2 of those subscribers coming from North America leads me to believe that, yes, most people who hate WoW have played it and know exactly what awaits them after level 60. If not, then they most likely know someone who's played it. Many, many people have played WoW and then quit, because gaining levels is quite fun, that I will admit. However, basically all of the content post-60 is incredibly boring and tedious. So, if anything, it is not the WoW haters who are ignorant, but the WoW supporters who are. I'm pretty sure that most of the people who "love" WoW (not all) have yet to hit level 60 and are unaware of the lackluster endgame that awaits them.
Your second point highlights another negative element in the WoW gameplay. The fact that guilds are a necessity to further your character after level 60. To be forced to guild in order to have any sort of "fun" (note the quotation marks) severely segregates the WoW community between the "powergamers" that can afford to play several hours a day, and the casual gamers that would rather play less than an hour a day. There is no way that a causal gamer would ever be accepted into a serious raiding guild, due to the fact that they simply cannot make the time commitment required to raid in WoW (or if they were to be accepted, they would never get around to actually raiding). This, again, has nothing to do with player skill or being "bad at the game".
Now I understand that you stopped playing the game not because you disliked it, but simply because you "had your fill". WoW has been out for about 1 and a half years. If an MMO cannot retain its original player base for longer than this, then there is definitely something turning people away. Blizzard can flaunt subscription numbers and whatnot to impess the media, but I would like to see Blizzard show us how many players which set up an account in the first month of WoW still play. I'm willing to wager that a fairly large amout of original players have already quit.
The fact that World of Warcraft has the largest player base of any mainstream, pay-to-play MMORPG is not a fact that supports in anyway the idea that it is the "best". I would be willing to bet that at least one million of WoW subscribers have never played an MMO before. In fact, I can guarantee it, since the "Big Three" North American MMO's at their peaks (Ultima Online, Everquest, and Asheron's Call) combined did not have 4 millon subscribers. Therefore, all of these extra players are playing WoW as their first MMO's, and as I've been saying over and over, they have no accurate gauge over what makes a good MMORPG.
(1997) UO --> EQ -> Runescape -> DAoC -> WoW -> EVE + WAR (2008)
in my opinion, wow is one of the Top 5 MMORPGs!
GW and GW:F for example needs to be kicked out of the Top10.
The reason why WoW is no more in the Top10: So many players that don't know how a MMORPG works. They are singel players or Counterstrike rul0rs and so they hate this game after a while. But they never tried an other MMORPG.
For me, playing WoW sice Beta, it has to be No.1
For me that was the biggest sales point of this game.
Not just the Japanese but also the French German and Spanish. The multi-culturalism of that game was excellent and provided a brilliant platform for language practise.
About as fundamentally flawed as only listening to people who have played the game for so long that they have become bored with it.
About 1/5 of them come from North America. 1/6 from Europe and 2/3 from China.
About as fundamentally flawed as only listening to people who have played the game for so long that they have become bored with it.
Very true Baff,
However I would argue that in WoW's case for the average MMORPG gamer it only takes 1 or 2, maybe 3 at the outside, months to reach that state. The MMORPG "newbies" take longer but even they eventually get to the point where WoW is at 'end game' and most folks that reach it can only stand it for a short period of time before the nature of WoW's "end game" (lack of content, mostly) drives them to look for new games.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
but do u realy think, GW or GW:F is an better MMORPG? It's just in the Top 10 because they doesn't have so many haters.
Housing, open PvP and the PvP Sytem are realy minus points of WoW but Blizzard will change this with Burning Crus. Just like they did with solo content because the communtiy wanted this.
btw: I play on an EU PvE Server an the community isn't bad on Horde site
Whenever i step outside, somebody claims to see the light
It seems to me that all of us have lost our patience.
'cause everyone thinks they're right,
And nobody thinks that there just might
Be more than one road to our final destination--
but do u realy think, GW or GW:F is an better MMORPG? It's just in the Top 10 because they doesn't have so many haters.
Housing, open PvP and the PvP Sytem are realy minus points of WoW but Blizzard will change this with Burning Crus. Just like they did with solo content because the communtiy wanted this.
btw: I play on an EU PvE Server an the community isn't bad on Horde site
Actually it would mean that they have a larger percentage of people who like them verses people who dislike them than WoW does...
Wouldn't that, by definition, make them a more popular game? All the ratings on this site really indicate is how POPULAR a game is... has nothing to do with quality whatsoever. And, frankly, as far as Quality goes.... WoW isn't all that great. It's ok... but definitely not in the top 5 "QUALITY" wise, imo.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I have never unsderstood why newbs always say add more mid lvl content to world of warcraft.. the game is bloody ez mode for geting to lvl 60, if you cant get to lvl 60 in wow you are not a real mmorpg player most mmorpgs call for a ton more grinding and play time to reach the high levels than wow does. They give u a million quests to do rested exp they basicaly hand you lvl 60 its designed so casuals can make lvl 60.
My complaint is they need to add more solo content or small instance 5-10 ppl not 40, the 1 solo acomplishment is pvp ranks but I am already a high warlord, my guildd downs rag/nef/cthun every week and I raid with them but its scheduled days tues/fri/sat aside from those raids I find myself with nothign to do in wow I wish ther ewas more small instance content that I could get there just isnt anythign worth geting anymore.
i ve pretty much seen that "fall from grace" coming honestly.
WoW tries to please everyone but in the end doesn t really innovate or succeed with anything.
- for Hardcore gamers WoW is simply too easy, and other games offer a more in depth raidgame.
- for PvPers the impact of PvP is way too low and also PvP is way too dependant on gear, as opposed to player skill.
- it s a great game for casual gamers, that is from 1 to 59.... at lvl 60 the game just beats them down and kicks them when they re on the ground.
the argument that it gets low ratings because of the Eve players on this board is kinda moot.... Eve and other MMo players have been here for years and WoW had good ratings before. The current drop of it s ratings is something new... and imho is very likely directly related to the increasing number of casual
gamers reaching lvl 60 and hitting the "raid wall". if Blizzard didn t
see it coming then they got their head stuck somewhere way dark ....
If any of those body parts are returned to you (and I do mean any of them) then you would have the necessary resources to get to level 60 with no problem whatsoever.
They need to start two new servers that instead of being PvP, or RP, or any of the others they have listed now, they instead label as "Normal Difficulty" and "Hard Difficulty".
Popular come from populous.
To be the most popular you must have the most people who like it.
The ratio of people who like it versus people who don't may well be a factor of that poll, but not of it's popularity.
I was under the impression that Guild Wars attracted every bit as much scorn as WoW round here. Personally I think Guild Wars is also a quality game.
I think WoW is defintely in the top 5 for "quality". For me, it's the number 1 quality MMO on the market. (I haven't tried them all). It's not however the MMO I most enjoyed playing (although it may well be in the top 5).
I consider it to be quality because.....
It functions very well. It isn't bug ridden. It has more programmed features than any other MMO I have seen. It's well maintained and has a high frequency of updates. The art is well themed and fits together nicely. The game is well balanced. The packaging is good. The servers are localised. it's very scaleable and plays well on a wide range of systems. Updates get thoroughly tested before release. That sort of thing. I don't have to enjoy a product to recognise the quality.
Examples, Mercedes make high quality cars, but I prefer Lexus. Levi's make high quality jeans, but I don't like jeans. Bullet trains are engineering marvels, but I like to fly.
I haven't seen a finer example of game programming for some time. There is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that WoW is in a league of it's own for quality amongst MMO's.
I have all those things, and I never made it to 60. What I didn't have, was enough tolerance to look at thoose goofy characters even one more time, or the patience to sit though one more annoying uninteresting quest that had no relevance to the world my character was in.
I have all those things, and I never made it to 60. What I didn't have, was enough tolerance to look at thoose goofy characters even one more time, or the patience to sit though one more annoying uninteresting quest that had no relevance to the world my character was in.
You're absolutely right. I apologize. I left one thing out.
...you must have the ability to numb your mind to the disparity between WoW and having fun.
what you mean with "It has more programmed features than any other MMO I have seen"? that devs have a lot scheduled to add to the game? or that when you go to the "Features" page on the gamesite it lists a lot of goodies?
anyway, you posted a quite complete review of the game. only the part about balance belongs to gameplay. i dont think you would be able to sell the game you are describing to anybody only with the things you said. the packaging is good? what's that?
why dont you speak about crafting? or pvp? or freedom? or politics? or economy? or death penalties? or endgame? or posibilities? something meaningful, something interesting. what you described is just a good programmed game, not a good game.
it is like the difference between a great book, and a correct book. you can say anything you want about the cover, and the nice colorful ilustrations on the middle pages, and how easy to read the font is, and the quality of the paper, and that it aint got any typos or grammar errors, and how good the translation is, and the size of the book is perfect cause it fits nicely on your suitcase. but all that doesnt make a good book, indeed, if that is all you can say about a book, i will not buy it for sure.
Similarly, I will not buy a book that is falling apart for a premium price. If it's on the shelf, it needs to be of a certain quality. Not just in appearnce but also in literary style. The author must write coherently and must practise all the craft necessary to make great art. Jackson Pollock is no Michelangelo.
I was just describing the aspect of the game pertaining to quality. I don't seek to portray WoW as the most fun I have ever had in an MMO, but I do believe in credit where credit is due. It's high standard of quality and innovation is one of the reasons I liked the game. Technical achievement in games is something I look out for while I play.
In the same vein the astounding graphics in Far Cry or the marvellous server limits in Eve greatly enhanced my enjoyment of those games.
Balance for me is a quality issue. It is something that should be ironed out before the game launches or before a patch is released. For example the mid game nerfs in COH or the introduction of BFR's in Planetside (and perhaps SWGs CU) greatly lowered my enjoyment of those games.
.
.
Crafting for me was essentially part of the endgame, it added another hundred or so hours of intrest. The craft quests were fun to play and the resource gathering drove the economy. Some crafts were more useful to character advancement than others. The implementation was the best yet, I especially liked the trade window where you can let other people enhance your equipment without it ever leaving your possesion. How many times have you been ripped off like that in other games?
The economy was excellently implemented with the auction houses and mailbox systems. I especially liked that you could mail things to your alts, thereby eliminating the expensive need for mule accounts. Auctions could be exciting and taught me how to use Ebay better. There was a lively trade circuit to be found in the capitals, complete with full time traders and bankers. The ability to view an items properties by hyper link from the chat window and also to "virtually" try it on to see what it looks like on you and how it affects your stats was yet another great implementation to this area of the game.
I enjoyed my time spent at lvl 60 more than the rest of game, I felt I had more freedom to explore and had not seen most of the content until then. Although I never finished all of the lvl 60 instances I was pleased to see that they constantly added to them to keep endgame material growing. If you are the type of person that is truely a mindless grinder, immensley timesinking advancements are still available through crafting, PvP and Raiding. There is no reason for your advancement ever to reach a limit.
I'm not especially keen on PvP, but I thought the gametypes found in the battlegrounds were a great addition, I also enjoyed the immersion of accidently joinng an army on the march. Very Orc, and raiding an enemy capital on the otherside of the world with a big army at lvl 25 was very exciting also. I thought it very well done how you could advance your character equally fast through PvP (faster for reputation) and that PvP provided a seperate tree of items (more powerful than the ones found in PvE), I felt this gave the game greater flexibility in playstyles. I like varied gameplay and I like the diversity of players this brings.
Death penalties were milder than I was used to (or prefer), but entertainingly implemented. Now that the game has been around for long enough, I would like to see some Hardcore/permadeath servers, to add to the replayability.
The only politics I noticed were Clan politics and I didn't/don't enjoy them. In other games I have found politics to be much more inhibiting to the people I am allowed to play with. In Games such as Matrix the game will penalise you for playing with other factions, and so friends made before becoming political must be abandoned. This is still a problem in WoW, if your friend has started a alliance and you a horde, one of you must start again or you will never play together, but less so than in many other games. The great fun implementaion here (WoW is simply full of them) was the is the use of language. You can't communicate with the enemy faction they speaks gobbledygook. The politics of hardcare PvP or Raid clans are likewise as unpleasant as you might expect from any group of gamers taking life too seriously. I saw people fall out a lot in these circumsatnces and give up playing. The game has plenty of other content to do and advancements to gain without being forced to play this way if you do not so wish. you may not gain the ultimate uber kit of fabulousness, but you have ample access to all you need to go anywhere and do anything.
The opportunity for roleplay was everpresent, both in gameplay terms (within the group I play the role of a tank) and in acting terms (I am an orc I like war, the colour green, axes, expensive shirts and Halfling women).
I hope i affend no1, but WoW sucks, who wants to pay 15$ a month of a game u by from the store....
Get guild wars, dont tell me it gets borin (well ever game gets borin after along time) there is more to do then ppl think. U also feel free on gw u dont have no trouble urslef like WoW, u dont have to worry about money u dont feel u sould get on it becuase ur payin then when u quit u have to cancle the fee. Then when u want to play u have to pay even if u barly want to play. Gw is alot better. I pick gw over WoW anyday,
Dont yell at me im just stackin my opinion (its a good point im not lieing)
1 more thing not sayin WoW is crap just over time it gets really borin, once ur reach the highest lvl there is nothin to do. Yes it is fun while it last
Whenever i step outside, somebody claims to see the light
It seems to me that all of us have lost our patience.
'cause everyone thinks they're right,
And nobody thinks that there just might
Be more than one road to our final destination--
wow man, i dont know why it took you so long to finally post something really with substance and not just sales numbers or flames. very good post, although i disagree completely
if you dont like the void of space(eve), theres nothing thats better than wow....ao, coh, lin2, guildwars, and etc.
i dont even see the argument....and wow was not my first mmo, so stop being snobs.
Whenever i step outside, somebody claims to see the light
It seems to me that all of us have lost our patience.
'cause everyone thinks they're right,
And nobody thinks that there just might
Be more than one road to our final destination--