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Requesting a veteran clear us some misconceptions I have about this game

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  • HardinHardin Member Posts: 70


    Originally posted by Tangogulf

    Hi all;
    I played the trial and purchased EVE about a year ago. After about a month or so, I cancelled my membership because of some rumours that I had read...and to some extent experienced in the game. I'm wondering if a veteran of the game could comment on these rumours and experiences of mine, so that I could make an informed choice on whether to retry the game or not. I think that these misconceptions stopped me from getting beyond the newbie learning curve to the best part of the game.
    I will say this, it seems that those who have gotten past the learning curve of this game seem to relish it, like few Mmorpgs to date. I would really like to get past my misconceptions and the initial learning curve in order to see what all the fuss is about. With that, here are the things that were bothering me at the time:

    1) Combat - Again I was at a very low level, but my experience with the combat was basically auto attack and circle the other ship until the fight was over. No positional or special attacks, just auto attack and circle. I didnt like this, I wanted alot more complexity and skill requirements out of the combat. Was I too low to make an informed decision on combat? Did I get the wrong or right idea with the combat?
    2) All there is to do is mine - Again let me qualify, that this would be paraphrasing the rumour. I really enjoy making money via the economy. The economy and the markets seemed very robust in the game. I envisioned travelling to far off stations, buying products low and selling high in other sectors. However, given that I could not at all survive in combat against pirates, I really was quite concerned about travelling beyond the safe zones, thus hand cuffing my economic activity. It seemed that I had to mine nearby to survive.
    3) I ll never catch up with other players - The skill based system. The longer that Im here, the better I get. Therefore, if someone has been here 2 years, and I have been here only a month, then I stand the risk of being continuously ganked (and again handcuffed) in my activities.
    I think more then anything, I had the perception that if I travelled too far or did too much in attempting to expand my economic empire, then I was finished. I didnt feel I had the freedom to really experiment with or play the game.
    Can anyone help dispel these myths for me?


    1) Combat. I think others have pretty well covered this already however I just want to restress the strategic and tactical nature of combat in EVE. Every ship in EVE has its weak points and these weak points can change depending on what modules are fitted to the ship. It is the selection and choice of modules that actually makes combat so interesting as you never know what you will be facing (although you can make pretty informed choices). The complexity grows ever deeper when you then have to consider your ship fitting requirements not only in how they relate to your ship - but also in how they interrelate with the fittings and ships of anyone you are flying with. Often it is the ability to be flexible and adapt settings to suit specific circumstances that are the mark of the more successful PvPer.

    Examples:

    You hear reports that a pirate gang is flying around in a Rook, a Blackbird and a Scorpion - all ships primarily focused on Electronic Warfare.  You know that if you and your friends go into fight a gang like this in your normal setups that your targetting systems will be jammed and your likely to defenceless while they kill you.

    Now comes the choices.

    a) You can fit EW modules yourself - along with some sensor booster to boost your locking time and try to jam them before they jam you - could work but you are screwed if they get you locked first

    b) You can try and set a sniping long range setup and blast them from outside their EW range. You may not kill them as they can probably just warp away but at least you put them on the backfoot

    c) You fit a LOT of ECCM modules to your ship and go in at close range. They may still get a jam on you - there is an element of chance involved - but if they dont then you can really hit them hard (EW ships tend to be paper thin)

    Now imagine that the instead of fitting EW modules the Scopion actually is tanked up. You could warp in and start blasting and spend ages trying to break his tank (all the while leaving his friends to cause havoc). These examples are very simplified and the scissor/sticks/stones combination can be infinite. But as you play the game you do get a feel for what people are flying and if you can optimise your setup to suit it can fantastically boost your chances of a kill. And the wonderful thing is that this all comes down to your brain and you knowledge and understanding of the game - not how many skillpoints you have (although they can give you more options).

    Of course you can setup your ship specifically to kill a specific enemy and then a) your enemy has done totally surprising or b) You run into a different enemy than you were expecting - and then you could be screwed either way. If you are out hunting general enemies and not sure what you are facing then there are generalist setups that will probably work fine in most situations but may not give you the edge if you come up against a prepared opponent.

    And as I mentioned above there are also 'fleet' setups where you setup you ship in a way that may not be optimal solo but which give your fleet more options and survivability.

    2) Regarding mining - well basically I have been playing 3 years and I havent even touched a mining laser for over 2 years. In fact it is so long ago that I am not sure I even remember how to mine. As other have pointed out there are lots of way to earn ISK in EVE and many of them do not need you to even produce anything. EVE actually has a thriving service industry economy.

    Here is an example. A few years ago I had to train all my Corporation Management skills to the max in order to create an alliance - one of the first in the game. This was very annoying for me as it meant I had to dedicate about 2 months of skill training time to skills that in terms of flying/fighting are pretty pointless.

    Later on I discovered that other CEOs were in the same boat - also pissed off at having to 'waste' time training these skills. That's when I discovered I could offer my services. ( http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=345259 ). By accepting me into their corporations, making me CEO and giving me 1,000,000,000 ISK I could actually create the alliances for them - thus saving them the skill training time.

    However EVE is full of scammers. You would think that most people would be very dubious about handing over control of their corporation + a huge chunk of cash and indeed they are. However over the three years of playing the game I have become known as a honest dealer - as a result people - initially friends - but later others who I had no prior contact with started contacting me to request my alliance creation service. I have made a nice little business out of it!

    And there are many other examples. There are many reputable Mercenary Corporation in the game who get hired on contracts and get paid ISK to PvP on behalf of clients who either have no PvP abilities themselves or who simply wish to damage rivals whilst remaining annonymous.

    Of course (as with my own example) you are not going to be able to do these things until you have developed a reputation in the game - and thats another beauty of EVE - because we all play on one server and because EVE generally keeps its subscribers you do get to know who you can trust, who you can't and your actions have long term consequences. A reputation can take months and years to build but can be ruined by one mistake. If I for example decided to simply take the 1 bill and walk away I could guarantee that no one would ever ask (and pay me) to create and alliance for them ever again!

    3) I wont go into too much detail on the skills system as other have already done it. All I will say is do not worry about 'catching up' simply specialise and become very good in one area before moving on to something different. There are 40 million skillpoint people in my alliance who simply fly cruisers. Why - when they could be flying battleships, carrier or dreadnoughts? Because they have master the cruiser and can do as much if not more damage in it as they would in an uber ship that will simply make the enemy dock or run away. Some of our most valued pilots are our newbies in Frigates and Interceptors - because they are the ones locking down the enemy to stop them running - allowing us to get the kills. Skillpoints dont matter - intelligence matters.

    At the end of the day it is intelligence that can make you a success in EVE.

    Amarr Victor

  • RychekRychek Member Posts: 55


    Originally posted by SobaMan

    stuff

    Invulnerable doesn't mean he can't be killed... 


    Actually, thats exactly what it means.

    in·vul·ner·a·ble   Audio pronunciation of "invulnerable" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (n-vlnr--bl)

    adj.
    1. Immune to attack; impregnable.
    2. Impossible to damage, injure, or wound.
    But arguing semantics is off topic :P

    Sure he had a great tank, but saying it was better than 100% was yanking somebodies chain.

    image

  • ValiumSummerValiumSummer Member Posts: 1,008

    I have a suggestion:

    I have the honor of knowing a veteran player I started with back @ launch ('03).   He belongs to a corp called N.A.G.A. (alliance: big blue) and got me in on thier Team speak channel.   I was just doinking around in empire space listening, when 2 pirates were reported in BWF-22 (I think is the name of the system). 

    Several alliance/corp members from different countries (different accents) tried very skillfully to trap and attack two equally skilled Pirates.    It was so fascinating I did nothing but sit there and stare at the wall as if I were reading a Tom Clancy novel for what could have been an hour or more.  It was riviting. 

    I suggest you get in on a large corps team speak...and just listen.

    I learned alot about the depth of EvE that day.  

    Actual combat is one thing, but the real beauty in PvP combat in EvE is the maneuvering, the Coordinating, planning, intelligence and communication needed to destroy a ship piloted by a skilled pilot who does not want to die.  

    This was just a relatively minor event, I can' only imagine what its like in a fleet vs fleet scenario.

    I haven't actually played the game for nearly 2 months, I do log on to train my characters every day or so.   I've been really busy in Real life, but I truly feel that PvP in EvE has NO EQUAL in the MMORPG world.

  • RollinDutchRollinDutch Member Posts: 550


    Originally posted by Urza123

    Well its not that we are not believing or anything, but we just want to see how math works out. Math rules apply to everyone in game. So we are just trying to understand the cause.

    By the way if most of your shots "bounce off" that means you are outside of your range, or your turrets dont track him effectivly. Either way, if you miss that is not his tank it is your guns. As for hitting him for 20s well, I am not entirely sure which guns you are using and how skilled are you in using them, so it is hard to say. If you really want to test his tank, get a Dominix to stick 5 heavy drones on your friend, and make sure that he has drone interfacing at 5. Those ususally generate around 200 DPS, another thing you can do is take a t1 cruser and fit it with gank build (blasters/auto guns) those usually generate 120 - 130 DPS, again it all depends on your skills.

    On the supporting side of your argument, given that you devote  your ship to shield regeneration tank. It is possible to get your BS to recharge your shields as much as 160 shields per second (without SB) while having OKish resistances. However the top of hill would be command ships, Vulture can have about 75% resistances to all types of damage and maintain a maxium passive shield regenertion rate of 230 shields per second that is w/o use of SB.




    The vulture doesnt do damage meaningful of the name, and since passive tanks in group combat are a good way to get friendly-fired out of existance, thats not entirely relevant.

    A domi with maxed-out Ogre IIs is 466 DpS (with the spec skill at 4), and with rails will push about 1k DpS. A Neutron gankathron will be hitting in the 1.3k DpS range, assuming that hes only running 3 damage mods. Most ranged interceptors (10k+) will be exceeding 100 DpS, and a good cruiser such as a thorax can exceed 500 DpS in capable hands.

    The best tanks would be officer-fitted rattlesnakes or CNRs, which absorb ~2.5k DpS sustainably. I believe that Kayosoni has one, unless he's lost it somehow.
  • GlacianNexGlacianNex Member UncommonPosts: 649


    Originally posted by RollinDutch

    Originally posted by Urza123

    Well its not that we are not believing or anything, but we just want to see how math works out. Math rules apply to everyone in game. So we are just trying to understand the cause.

    By the way if most of your shots "bounce off" that means you are outside of your range, or your turrets dont track him effectivly. Either way, if you miss that is not his tank it is your guns. As for hitting him for 20s well, I am not entirely sure which guns you are using and how skilled are you in using them, so it is hard to say. If you really want to test his tank, get a Dominix to stick 5 heavy drones on your friend, and make sure that he has drone interfacing at 5. Those ususally generate around 200 DPS, another thing you can do is take a t1 cruser and fit it with gank build (blasters/auto guns) those usually generate 120 - 130 DPS, again it all depends on your skills.

    On the supporting side of your argument, given that you devote  your ship to shield regeneration tank. It is possible to get your BS to recharge your shields as much as 160 shields per second (without SB) while having OKish resistances. However the top of hill would be command ships, Vulture can have about 75% resistances to all types of damage and maintain a maxium passive shield regenertion rate of 230 shields per second that is w/o use of SB.




    The vulture doesnt do damage meaningful of the name, and since passive tanks in group combat are a good way to get friendly-fired out of existance, thats not entirely relevant.

    A domi with maxed-out Ogre IIs is 466 DpS (with the spec skill at 4), and with rails will push about 1k DpS. A Neutron gankathron will be hitting in the 1.3k DpS range, assuming that hes only running 3 damage mods. Most ranged interceptors (10k+) will be exceeding 100 DpS, and a good cruiser such as a thorax can exceed 500 DpS in capable hands.

    The best tanks would be officer-fitted rattlesnakes or CNRs, which absorb ~2.5k DpS sustainably. I believe that Kayosoni has one, unless he's lost it somehow.



    What you fit on a CNR to have that , cuz I ran some builds in quickfit for that. I dont see how you can soak in 2.5k DPS.

    Another thing with DPS, it depends if you count it vs no resistancdes. Or do you count it vs t1 resistances. Cuz when I wrote those DPS values I  counted them against standard resistances. If we are going to talk about DPS w/o resistances applied numbers get way too big. Cuz I fly a thorax in classic gank build with all relevent skills maxed out and when I do the math vs standard ship t1 ship I do get about 110 - 120 dps.
  • RollinDutchRollinDutch Member Posts: 550


    What you fit on a CNR to have that , cuz I ran some builds in quickfit for that. I dont see how you can soak in 2.5k DPS.Another thing with DPS, it depends if you count it vs no resistancdes. Or do you count it vs t1 resistances. Cuz when I wrote those DPS values I counted them against standard resistances. If we are going to talk about DPS w/o resistances applied numbers get way too big. Cuz I fly a thorax in classic gank build with all relevent skills maxed out and when I do the math vs standard ship t1 ship I do get about 110 - 120 dps.
    You count DpS against 0% resists, always. 'Standard' Resistances are not standard and are a very poor representation of what you will expect to encounter in PvP. 0% is a constant baseline for DpS, and one which is very easy to figure damage against YOUR resists from. I mean, if you have high resists and someone gives you DpS modified for t1 resists, the first thing you have to do to figure the damage you'll take is UNDO that modification.

    As for the CNR, use high-end officer booster/amp/invulns with a full crystal set. Sure, it costs 10B or so, but it makes a sexy tank.

  • RaabHimselfRaabHimself Member Posts: 18
    Tangogulf, I would say your first post on this topic pretty much sums up the game. I find it incredible boring, NPC missions, mining and thats about it. Never see players which are the same 'level' as me and about the combat, yes its pretty much right-click, orbit as: whatever distance, turn the guns and and wait till you get killed or kill... Shame I knew this before I quit WoW but there you go.
  • LexxieLexxie Member Posts: 37


    Originally posted by RaabHimself
     I find it incredible boring, NPC missions, mining and thats about it.


    Yep, good to see you found out all  that the game had to offer when you were playing it...


    "I played Guild Wars and found it incredibly boring just running around the start location all by myself."  
    "I read the first chapter of this book and it was incredibly boring.  Introduced some characters and that was about it". 

    If you want to play a game, then play it for pity's sake.
  • MinscMinsc Member UncommonPosts: 1,353


    Originally posted by RaabHimself
    Tangogulf, I would say your first post on this topic pretty much sums up the game. I find it incredible boring, NPC missions, mining and thats about it. Never see players which are the same 'level' as me and about the combat, yes its pretty much right-click, orbit as: whatever distance, turn the guns and and wait till you get killed or kill... Shame I knew this before I quit WoW but there you go.


    *Sigh* Why do you even bother, it's so easy to refute your claims it's almost not worth taking the time to do it.

    The average number of SP of most characters in EVE is about 10-15 million, just over a year worth of training, if you train as many skills as possible up to LVL 4 you will be 80% as effective as someone who has trained level 5. Training levels 1-4 takes about 20% of the total training time of a skill while training from 4-5 takes the other 80%.

    Combat is also more than just orbit + fire = win. If you try that for anything beyond the level 1 mission NPC's you'll be toast in about 20 seconds...or less. In PVP you'd be lucky to last 5. Please, in the future if you are going to bash a game try to actually put some effort into it next time.
  • UomoDiMerdaUomoDiMerda Member Posts: 5

    >Player responses to this game cause me to want to participate in it and
    like the game. If my biggest hurdle to it is lack of knowledge, Ill do
    my darndest to fix it.

    i assume you play alone, with no RL friends (as i am)
    the thing you need is finding people to play with. and the way is: get in a corp.

    find a corp that's fairly large but not too much, that does what you like (trading, fighting, u name it) that's in a alliance and accepts n00bs (as i still am :) ). there are plenty.
    how to? read forums, go in the local ingame chat, look at the offices in station. find the corps that have the description that fits your needs and send mails.
    when you're in the corp, at the beginning be available for every task the corp needs. i did haul ore from mining to factory, and, believe it,  it was fun. and don't be afraid to ask when you need advice.
    i was quitting the game after my trial period because i found it plain boring (lvl1 missions? mining all alone?) but then i joined a corp.

    that's the real eve.





  • Originally posted by Tangogulf

    1) Combat - Again I was at a very low level, but my experience with the combat was basically auto attack and circle the other ship until the fight was over. No positional or special attacks, just auto attack and circle. I didnt like this, I wanted alot more complexity and skill requirements out of the combat. Was I too low to make an informed decision on combat? Did I get the wrong or right idea with the combat?

    Some engagements are as simple as circle shoot.  Becuase the target will disintegrate too quickly for any prolonged "tactics" to take place.  Special attacks, well, I have T2 Medium Blasters which are "special" in that, they will cause a lot of damage.  Or, I could fit NOS, SmartBombs...  Remote Armor Reps while still being you down *uber yarrr*.

    Complexity can get very intense.  The moment you identify a prospective target, to the time you destroy his ship is all combat.  Following him, sending out a covert-ops craft to locate him with scan probes if he safe spotted... risk assessment, deploying scouts to make sure the target isn't forming backup in an adjecent system.  Identification of probably damage/skills the pilot might have, and hoping for the best during a refit.

    And, to be honest... there are a LOT of skills you have to have to be effective with blasters and rails.  It takes a minimum of three level 5 skills and two level 4 skills just to have Medium Hybrid Specializations.  Not to mention, you should have all "complimentary" Gunnery skills up to at least level 4 before going T2 Turrets.... You'll probably have at least 2 million skill points in just Gunnery by the time you fit a T2 Medium turret.

    Then you have other complimentary combat skills.  So your Gunnery is tip top, but you have crap skills in Mechanic.... nice, so you can dish some damage but you can't absorbe much damage as Mechanic is where you boost Armor tanking skills.  You have to train up a lot in Engineering so you have the power grid to fit T2 turrets, and have a good Capacitor capacity and recharge rate to actually USE them.  Then you have Navigation, if your ship isn't fast or agile, then no need to bother using a webber on you.  Electronics need to be up, to boost the amount of CPU you have (which are required by all turrets/launchers),  otherwise you can't fit them.  Oh, and Electronics has skills that will determine how many targets you can have, how fast you are able to target them...  yes, to be a good "pirate", skill wise, requires a substantial amount of skills.

    2) All there is to do is mine - Again let me qualify, that this would be paraphrasing the rumour. I really enjoy making money via the economy. The economy and the markets seemed very robust in the game. I envisioned travelling to far off stations, buying products low and selling high in other sectors. However, given that I could not at all survive in combat against pirates, I really was quite concerned about travelling beyond the safe zones, thus hand cuffing my economic activity. It seemed that I had to mine nearby to survive.

    In the beginning, you will probably mine, yes.   This is becuase, though "talent" and "skill" can effect the outcome of a battle... realistically, not often will a single noobie ship (with the miner and civilian gatling gun) destroy a Heavy Assault Cruiser or Battleship.  Even the hardcore PvP'ers, can fit a T2 Miner from the days when they were establishing theirselves.  See, it takes money to make money.  So you have to start from somewhere, just like in other MMOs.  You mine, or dab in a little piratry, trading, missions, ratting, manufacturing et al... but in the beginning, your big money maker will probably be mining Jaspet in low-sec running from pirates.

    Then, you make enough money from selling your mins.

    1) You buy a hauler, and invest the rest of your earnings in a lot of shield boosters and start hauling them to different systems (maybe you have word a war is about to break out in the area?)

    2) You buy that flashy frigate and a bunch of guns to put on it.  Run around finding other noobies and ransoming their ships for 'X' amount of money.

    3) You decide to buy a few Blueprints and start manufacturing tons of ammunition.

    4) You decide that reprocessing ore into minerals is profitable in itself... you continue with your Industry skills and purchase a Covertor (a mining barge which is capable of 'strip mining' a whole belt).

    5) You decide to purchase the skills required to start your own corporation... and then rise up and overthrow the Mercenary Coalition from their prestigous thrown.


    We can continue, but here... we have a Miner, Fighter, Industrialist, Manufacturer, Trader/Distributor, Leader.... you can do, whatever you want but you have to start somewhere.  Some people make money offering their ability to be effectively an Assassin, Scout, Hauler etc... whatever you want.  Unlike other MMOs, you can do all of the above from whatever initial character and attributes you pick in the beginning.

    3) I ll never catch up with other players - The skill based system. The longer that Im here, the better I get. Therefore, if someone has been here 2 years, and I have been here only a month, then I stand the risk of being continuously ganked (and again handcuffed) in my activities.

    Not true.  A little known fact, America doesn't have the most "powerful" military force.  In any classical sense of the word.  Yeah, we have "technology" this and that... but our 'INFLUENCE' is from economic means.  Let the fighter be a fighter, philosophy.  You can jump into EVE, and acquire enough funds to employ the Mercenary Coalition to take care of any PvP you need.  You can be a trader... PvP people tend to lose a lot of equipment and as a "pirate" in EVE myself, I do have "friends" who are industrialists in game; I provide safe passage and I have tons of isks to pay for the equipment and venture, they drop off needed supplies.  See how it works?  Just like in real life.  You just have to really compete and play.  I have people coming to me, 'Hey <insert nick>, I see you're using T2 this or that... I have the BPO, can we make some arrangement?'  What they are looking for is a reliable and loyal consumer.  They built up their business in EVE, and now they are trying to establish a customer base... wow, just like a real business does.  EVE is fascinating in this respect, it's a complete virtual world, yet it also reflects real life much better than any other virtual realm.  Even Hollywood will leave a viewer in disbelief or nothing at all to use when he leaves the theatre...

    I think more then anything, I had the perception that if I travelled too far or did too much in attempting to expand my economic empire, then I was finished. I didnt feel I had the freedom to really experiment with or play the game.

    Just like in real life, if you become "big", "famous", "powerful"... well, you might want to refresh your knowledge of 'The Prince' (found at any book store).  Becuase people will try to take you down.  You will have all sorts of competition and problems the entire way.

    Can anyone help dispel these myths for me?


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