Originally posted by damian7 if you're not playing it, why are you going on about how great it is?
Er...because it's great?
I don't really mind if you don't think it's great, or prefer other games, or think you're married to an 8 year old bottom feeding gold farmer.
I am however intrested in evidence based assertions. So if someone says it is a poor quality game, or unpopular and I think the evidence does not support that argument I will say so.
The evidence suggests that a response time from an Eve server is going to be longer than the response time from a WoW server. This matches my personal opinion, but not yours. You offer no substantiation and offer no conscessions to your bias. You might as well not have bothered to mention it.
it's super easy to play BUT then you hit max level and for some reason NOW you're expected to spend the rest of your life farming an instance with a bunch of morons for 500 hours, and then on to the next instance for another 500 hours of farming
Why do you feel that to enjoy a game, you must spend the rest of your life playing it?
Personally, when I have completed as much as I want to, I move on.
What's going to happen when you start enjoying doughnuts? Will you feel expected to spend the next 500 hours eating them and then onto another bakery for the next 500 hours after that?
Or when you realise that you have eaten as many doughnuts as you want will you then scorn all the other people who have ever eaten doughnuts and dared to say they enjoyed them?
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Celestian Units sold is not active accounts, they have never said how many active accounts they have. Also is that sold to stores like Best Biuy/Walmart or to customers?
His site is no more "accurate" than the rankings/polls here.
The number of boxes sold is not given out. The numbers you see published for WoW are for active subscribers only.
6.5 million active subscribers worldwide.
I have no idea how many boxes have been sold, although I do know they broke Halo 2's previous record for the fastest selling video game of all time. So that's over 900,000 on the first day in the U.S.
Double the current sub numbers for WoW and that will probably get you pretty close to boxes sold for WoW. The majority of those would be in NA and UK with the balance being bought by cafe's in Asia.
Originally posted by Minsc I REALLY have to question whether you actually play the game now. First of all CCP NEVER patches on a friday....EVER, because of the very fact you stated. As for them telling their players what happened and why instead of just being silent and letting the players complain (i.e. WoW). Most people would appreciate that but I guess for some ignorance is bliss.
If you are from britain then you're likely playing on the EU servers, and since patches come out later on those servers than NA ones you get to miss the mass server crashes and other problems that are a regular occurance on patch day for WoW. And the developers don't harp, they explain what the problem was and how/what they did to fix it, far more than you get from other MMO devs.
The China server is being opened as a separate server due to Chinese laws and restrictions more than ping, as with most MMO's, anything below 300ms ping is more than adequate to play with. This is why it is still possible to play most MMO's on a dial-up connection (~300ms ping) but very hard to play on satellite (~1500ms ping).
Your guesstimate is off by quite a bit. Each individual WoW 'Realm' is not a separate set of hardware, in fact 2-3 'Realms' are often hosted on 1 server cluster, they all share equipment like the actual realm servers, the instance servers, character database server, etc. This is why WoW servers are always brought down in groups, as taking 1 'Realm' down results in taking down the whole group of them. Your bandwidth costs are off by quite a bit as well. A game like CS transfers at least 100x the data back and forth than any MMO does.
The question is, is my guesstimate off by 39 million? I think I have a rather large margin for error.
A server like CS does not send back anything like the kind of data WoW does. Data transmition is exponential to the power of the number of players you can see and hear (AOI). In busy area's of MMO's you may see hundreds of players all at the sametime and each one of them may see all the other hundreds too. Further to this in many MMO's the server must also transmit all the data for the AI which CS doesn't use.
When I played, CCP patched on Fridays. Perhaps you are new to the game? The big weekly bugfix was released on friday night and the hotsixes on Mondays and Tuesdays.
A Chinese ping would be around 300 to London. While playable, I find anything over 100 noticeable. Since I am paying for premium service, I don't approve of any ping's I can notice. If they had a seperate North American server for Eve, lag would be noticeably reduced.
I do play WoW on Eu servers and have never experienced any problems. Similarly I suppose, if Eve had localised servers they could stagger their roll outs and raise the standard for most of it's players too.
Originally posted by Minsc I REALLY have to question whether you actually play the game now. First of all CCP NEVER patches on a friday....EVER, because of the very fact you stated. As for them telling their players what happened and why instead of just being silent and letting the players complain (i.e. WoW). Most people would appreciate that but I guess for some ignorance is bliss.
If you are from britain then you're likely playing on the EU servers, and since patches come out later on those servers than NA ones you get to miss the mass server crashes and other problems that are a regular occurance on patch day for WoW. And the developers don't harp, they explain what the problem was and how/what they did to fix it, far more than you get from other MMO devs.
The China server is being opened as a separate server due to Chinese laws and restrictions more than ping, as with most MMO's, anything below 300ms ping is more than adequate to play with. This is why it is still possible to play most MMO's on a dial-up connection (~300ms ping) but very hard to play on satellite (~1500ms ping).
Your guesstimate is off by quite a bit. Each individual WoW 'Realm' is not a separate set of hardware, in fact 2-3 'Realms' are often hosted on 1 server cluster, they all share equipment like the actual realm servers, the instance servers, character database server, etc. This is why WoW servers are always brought down in groups, as taking 1 'Realm' down results in taking down the whole group of them. Your bandwidth costs are off by quite a bit as well. A game like CS transfers at least 100x the data back and forth than any MMO does.
The question is, is my guesstimate off by 39 million? I think I have a rather large margin for error. When I played, CCP patched on Fridays. Perhaps you are new to the game? The big weekly bugfix was released on friday night and the hotsixes on Mondays and Tuesdays.
A Chinese ping would be around 300 to London. While playable, I find anything over 100 noticeable. Since I am paying for premium service, I don't approve of any ping's I can notice. If they had a seperate North American server for Eve, lag would be noticeably reduced.
I do play WoW on Eu servers and have never experienced any problems. Similarly I suppose, if Eve had localised servers they could do the same thing and raise the standard for most of it's players too.
Agreed. For anyone outside europe the ping times to EVE are pretty painful sometimes. One of the many reasons I stopped playing it was connectivity issues with having to hop the pond to play.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Minsc Originally posted by baff
Double the current sub numbers for WoW and that will probably get you pretty close to boxes sold for WoW. The majority of those would be in NA and UK with the balance being bought by cafe's in Asia.
I'm going to enage in some more spurious guesstimating for laugh.
Wow grossed $292 million in the U.S. in 2005.
1 million players at $15 for 12 months = 180 million 112 million /box price of 50 = roughly 2 million.
I concur with your estimation. I was expecting the retention rate to be lower than that. I have no idea what it is in other games.
Satistically, I expect Continental Europe to match U.K. sales. and U.S. sales to roughly equal either of those two. If WoW sells proprotionally like other PC games. I think I read somewhere that China has an effective market of 386 million. I'd like to see what kind of a proportion of sales they represent.
The question is, is my guesstimate off by 39 million? I think I have a rather large margin for error. A server like CS does not send back anything like the kind of data WoW does. Data transmition is exponential to the power of the number of players you can see and hear (AOI). In busy area's of MMO's you may see hundreds of players all at the sametime and each one of them may see all the other hundreds too. Further to this in many MMO's the server must also transmit all the data for the AI which CS doesn't use. When I played, CCP patched on Fridays. Perhaps you are new to the game? The big weekly bugfix was released on friday night and the hotsixes on Mondays and Tuesdays.
A Chinese ping would be around 300 to London. While playable, I find anything over 100 noticeable. Since I am paying for premium service, I don't approve of any ping's I can notice. If they had a seperate North American server for Eve, lag would be noticeably reduced.
I do play WoW on Eu servers and have never experienced any problems. Similarly I suppose, if Eve had localised servers they could stagger their roll outs and raise the standard for most of it's players too.
If you count 3 1/2 years new to the game then ok. They have never patched on Friday. Hotfixes are done daily as necessary as they are server-side fixes only, client patches are always done on tuesday or wednesday.
A CS server sends far more information back and forth than a WoW server period, a 100-tick CS server for instance is sending 100 updates a second per player back to the server, which in turn then has to update every other player on the server with that info. Compare this to a WoW server where there may be 100 updates a minute or less. Why else do you think they haven't done a true MMOFPS yet? It's because everyone who wants to connect would need a fibre connection to be able to handle the data transmission.
WoW's hardware for all of their servers likely cost them AT MOST 5 million, so yes you are likely off by a hell of a lot.
Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by baff
Originally posted by Minsc I REALLY have to question whether you actually play the game now. First of all CCP NEVER patches on a friday....EVER, because of the very fact you stated. As for them telling their players what happened and why instead of just being silent and letting the players complain (i.e. WoW). Most people would appreciate that but I guess for some ignorance is bliss.
If you are from britain then you're likely playing on the EU servers, and since patches come out later on those servers than NA ones you get to miss the mass server crashes and other problems that are a regular occurance on patch day for WoW. And the developers don't harp, they explain what the problem was and how/what they did to fix it, far more than you get from other MMO devs.
The China server is being opened as a separate server due to Chinese laws and restrictions more than ping, as with most MMO's, anything below 300ms ping is more than adequate to play with. This is why it is still possible to play most MMO's on a dial-up connection (~300ms ping) but very hard to play on satellite (~1500ms ping).
Your guesstimate is off by quite a bit. Each individual WoW 'Realm' is not a separate set of hardware, in fact 2-3 'Realms' are often hosted on 1 server cluster, they all share equipment like the actual realm servers, the instance servers, character database server, etc. This is why WoW servers are always brought down in groups, as taking 1 'Realm' down results in taking down the whole group of them. Your bandwidth costs are off by quite a bit as well. A game like CS transfers at least 100x the data back and forth than any MMO does.
The question is, is my guesstimate off by 39 million? I think I have a rather large margin for error. When I played, CCP patched on Fridays. Perhaps you are new to the game? The big weekly bugfix was released on friday night and the hotsixes on Mondays and Tuesdays.
A Chinese ping would be around 300 to London. While playable, I find anything over 100 noticeable. Since I am paying for premium service, I don't approve of any ping's I can notice. If they had a seperate North American server for Eve, lag would be noticeably reduced.
I do play WoW on Eu servers and have never experienced any problems. Similarly I suppose, if Eve had localised servers they could do the same thing and raise the standard for most of it's players too.
Agreed. For anyone outside europe the ping times to EVE are pretty painful sometimes. One of the many reasons I stopped playing it was connectivity issues with having to hop the pond to play.
I connect from Ontario, Canada and our network up here is pretty crappy, we have to hop all the way down to the U.S. before jumping overseas. I have never had any major lag issues with EVE, though I did have them with WoW.
Due to connection problems I barely do any fighting missions anymore and became a miner. After losing a couple cruisers I thought a rehabilitation to the quiet life of mining was the wise choice to make till things get better, Perfect for me to go for an Ice mining set of skills.
Originally posted by Celestian Originally posted by Pride7 You really don't believe Eve is in the top 10 in terms of subscribers, do you? Besides MMOCHART you can reference NPD sales data. Granted unit sales do not equal subscribers but do you really think Eve has more subs than WOW, EQ2, EQ1, FF, SWG, GW, DAoC, CoH & CoV, UO, Lineage, or Lineage 2? Now I am sure the fanbois feel that way but that doesn't make it so... Personally I think AC is the best MMO ever and that isn't even on the list.
I never said I believed the polls/ratings here nor did I say I believed mmogchart. Infact I said why would someone believe mmogchart and not believe the ratings here since both are not accurate.
Read the mmogchart faq, he makes "best guess" when he has no hard data. He has no insider information to all those companies and thus cannot make even remotely accurate accounting. Blizzard for example is very vague at best at their numbers but they would like everyone to think they have 5 million active accounts. Only they know the truth.
Cheers.
Vivendi noted 5 million in their annual report, are you saying they are lying in their 2005 annual report? Units sold is not active accounts, they have never said how many active accounts they have. Also is that sold to stores like Best Biuy/Walmart or to customers?
His site is no more "accurate" than the rankings/polls here.
That is not units sold that is SUBSCRIBERS. Since it is clear that you didn't look at Vivendi's Annual Report here is what it says:
Page 20: September 2005 - Blizzard's World of Warcraft exceeds 4 million subscribers.
Pages 21: January 2006 - Blizzard's World of Warcraft, the subscription based mmorpg, passes the 5.5 million customers mark.
These numbers are pretty close to what is shown on his chart.
Originally posted by Roin Damian you wonder why no one listens to you? Just look at your post. I have no idea why you are under the impression. That just because "you" don't like world of warcraft. It automatically makes it a bad game. You can keep repeating it all you like, but still doesn't change the fact that it's your opinion. Which no matter how much you repeat it, will never make it a fact. The idea that you seem to hate WoW, so much is frankly scary. I think you are in some serious need of "time away" from gaming. Disliking or even hating a game is fine, but this little anti-wow crusade you seem to be on, makes me seriously wonder if something is mentally wrong with you.
Agree 100% - his hate is so deep he refuses to believe the game is great no matter how many great reviews or how big the fan base is. Rumor is he was kicked out of a guild for screaming "Please help me with my quest" one too many times
The number of boxes sold is not given out. The numbers you see published for WoW are for active subscribers only. 6.5 million active subscribers worldwide.
They never ever said it was "active" subscribers.
I am not saying wow isn't the most sold game, I am saying mmogchart is not accurate because almost no companies make public their active subscriber base.
Originally posted by Pride7 Agree 100% - his hate is so deep he refuses to believe the game is great no matter how many great reviews or how big the fan base is. Rumor is he was kicked out of a guild for screaming "Please help me with my quest" one too many times
Careful. Hate against those who hate a game is just as blind. Saying WOW has no problems is just as ignorant as saying it has no good qualities.
Watch that line between healthy debate and hypocrisy. It's mighty thin...
A CS server sends far more information back and forth than a WoW server period, a 100-tick CS server for instance is sending 100 updates a second per player back to the server, which in turn then has to update every other player on the server with that info. Compare this to a WoW server where there may be 100 updates a minute or less. Why else do you think they haven't done a true MMOFPS yet? It's because everyone who wants to connect would need a fibre connection to be able to handle the data transmission.
No it doesn't. A CS server sends very little info. It sends the change in any vector state of the players in the AOI. And it sends the player state. It also sends changes in the worldstate. Bullet holes or bullet vectors.
In other words it sends the 3D location and direction the player is facing, if it has changed, and also what that player looks like, crouched/erect and weapon type firing or not firing. A CS map is optimised so that there are a minimum of players in the AOI at the same time. The chances of all 16 players on a 16 player server being in eachother AOI at the sametime is almost non existent.
A Wow server sends all this same data, but it also sends a lot more player state data. As players are all customised in numerous ways. further to this it sends AI positions too.
The real key difference is the AOI and number of players in the server. In CS if 3players can all see each other, each player must be sent the 2 data sets for for each of the other players each tick. A total of 9 data sets are sent each tick. If 8 players can see eachother a total of 64 data sets are sent each tick. The bandwidth increases exponentially.
So in Ogrimmar if 100 players can see eachother, 10,000 dataset (each one larger than a CS packet) are sent. The bandwidth used for Ogrimmar alone is 150 times as much as a CS server.
Tickrate is the number of times those packets/datasets are sent per second. a neat trick to reduce bandwidth usuage at the expense of CPU load is to increase the tickrate. A higher tickrate actually results in lower bandwidth usuage.
And this is why.....
Each tick, the game does not send every dataset for every player. It only sends the ones that have changed from the last time. It sends updates, not the entire gamestate each tick. The more frequently the server sends these data sets, the less likely the players are to have moved. The smaller the number of datasets transmitted.
Using our previous sample figures, 64 data sets sent 10 (or even 100) times as often as 10,000 data sets sent once, is a seriously lot less bandwidth. Obviously all my figures are invented (as usual), but they demonstrate the theory.
Planetside is an MMOFPS, it uses vastly more bandwidth than a CS server and a vastly more powerful computer. Sacrifices to processing power are noticeably made by reducing the number of hit boxes found in CS. Planetside is also poorly optimised, it does not use prediction so warping/packetloss although no more frequent, is much more apparent to the naked eye.
Originally posted by Celestian Originally posted by baff
The number of boxes sold is not given out. The numbers you see published for WoW are for active subscribers only. 6.5 million active subscribers worldwide.
They never ever said it was "active" subscribers.
I am not saying wow isn't the most sold game, I am saying mmogchart is not accurate because almost no companies make public their active subscriber base.
Actually they go into some detail to explain that it is active subscribers. It is the number of active subscribers, including people on their starter first month and including active game card accounts in China.
They realise that their figures are meaningless unless qualified.
Many companies make public their active subscriber bases in their quarterly and yearly stock holder reports. Often you will be able to find these for yourself in the investor sections of their websites. These are their progress reports to the owners of the public companies, it is illegal to lie about them or falsely represent yourself. People who get caught doing so get the Enron treatment.
Originally posted by Pride7 Originally posted by Roin Damian you wonder why no one listens to you? Just look at your post. I have no idea why you are under the impression. That just because "you" don't like world of warcraft. It automatically makes it a bad game. You can keep repeating it all you like, but still doesn't change the fact that it's your opinion. Which no matter how much you repeat it, will never make it a fact. The idea that you seem to hate WoW, so much is frankly scary. I think you are in some serious need of "time away" from gaming. Disliking or even hating a game is fine, but this little anti-wow crusade you seem to be on, makes me seriously wonder if something is mentally wrong with you.
Agree 100% - his hate is so deep he refuses to believe the game is great no matter how many great reviews or how big the fan base is. Rumor is he was kicked out of a guild for screaming "Please help me with my quest" one too many times hamburger. eat.
then tell me more how cool you think it is to interrupt memorial services because I'M the one that's emo. seriously, eat the burger, enjoy it, have a blast, please don't infest any game that's halfway decent.
idiots have no opinions. fanbois have no opinions. they just regurgitate the burger and keep on trucking in their bliss.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
what wow fanboys have yet to explain is the line between "most popular", "most played" and "most sold" game and "highest quality game", which is what rankings are about.
rankings do not take into consideration sales or popularity. so, can any wow fanboy explain why "most popular, played, and sold game"="highest quality game"?
just for thought, what is most popular, and sold drink on earth? is it the best drink?
what is the most popular restaurant? is the best food served there?
what are the most viewed movie on theaters last year? are they the best?
who is the singer/band with most copies sold on the last years? are they the best singers/bands you can find on a music store?
what's the most popular book these days and the one that sold more? is it the best book that you can find on a library?
is diablo 2 a better RPG than Planescape Torment just because it sold many more copies and is far more popular?
i will copy here the 10 top rated movies on IMDb
Rank Rating Title Votes 1. 9.1 The Godfather (1972) 166,573 2. 9.0 The Shawshank Redemption (1994) 200,515 3. 8.9 The Godfather: Part II (1974) 95,032 4. 8.8 The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003) 150,713 5. 8.8 Casablanca (1942) 82,885 6. 8.8 Schindler's List (1993) 123,255 7. 8.7 Shichinin no samurai (1954) 44,045 8. 8.7 Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (1980) 132,756 9. 8.7 Buono, il brutto, il cattivo, Il (1966) 44,698 10. 8.7 Pulp Fiction (1994) 174,144
now i will copy the 10 top sales (all time, worlwide)
Rank Title Worldwide Box Office 1. Titanic (1997) $1,835,300,000 2. The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003) $1,129,219,252 3. Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (2001) $968,600,000 4. Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace (1999) $922,379,000 5. The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (2002) $921,600,000 6. Jurassic Park (1993) $919,700,000 7. Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (2005) $892,194,397 8. Shrek 2 (2004) $880,871,036 9. Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (2002) $866,300,000 10. Finding Nemo (2003) $865,000,000
now, you can tell, hey, The Godfather is a 30 year movie, so it is not going to be on the list cause back then there were less theaters, and it was cheaper to buy a ticket. great, but at least people would still buy it now, or rent it from blockbuster.
28 May Top 50 United States Video Rentals for the week ending 4 June 2006
Rank Prev Rank Title Days This Week Rental Gross Buy from Amazon.com 1. New Date Movie (2006) 5 $9.58M $9.58M Buy 2. New Freedomland (2006) 5 $8.76M $8.76M Buy 3. 1 Cheaper by the Dozen 2 (2005) 12 $6.34M $13.6M Buy 4. 2 The Ringer (2005) 19 $5.44M $19.7M Buy 5. 3 When a Stranger Calls (2006) 19 $5.01M $18.3M Buy 6. 4 Munich (2005) 26 $4.11M $24.1M Buy 7. 10 Rumor Has It... (2005) 26 $3.92M $18.4M Buy 8. 6 The Family Stone (2005) 33 $3.88M $28.9M Buy 9. 7 Transamerica (2005) 12 $3.78M $8.13M Buy 10. 9 Last Holiday (2006) 33 $3.71M $25.1M Buy
as you see, all of them are great movies
so, please, someone explain me the line between 6'5 million suscribers and "quality game"
Originally posted by baff What's going to happen when you start enjoying doughnuts? Will you feel expected to spend the next 500 hours eating them and then onto another bakery for the next 500 hours after that? Or when you realise that you have eaten as many doughnuts as you want will you then scorn all the other people who have ever eaten doughnuts and dared to say they enjoyed them?
swykyfi.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by apertotes what wow fanboys have yet to explain is the line between "most popular", "most played" and "most sold" game and "highest quality game", which is what rankings are about. rankings do not take into consideration sales or popularity. so, can any wow fanboy explain why "most popular, played, and sold game"="highest quality game"? just for thought, what is most popular, and sold drink on earth? is it the best drink? what is the most popular restaurant? is the best food served there? what are the most viewed movie on theaters last year? are they the best? who is the singer/band with most copies sold on the last years? are they the best singers/bands you can find on a music store? what's the most popular book these days and the one that sold more? is it the best book that you can find on a library? is diablo 2 a better RPG than Planescape Torment just because it sold many more copies and is far more popular? i will copy here the 10 top rated movies on IMDb Rank Rating Title Votes 1. 9.1 The Godfather (1972) 166,573 2. 9.0 The Shawshank Redemption (1994) 200,515 3. 8.9 The Godfather: Part II (1974) 95,032 4. 8.8 The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003) 150,713 5. 8.8 Casablanca (1942) 82,885 6. 8.8 Schindler's List (1993) 123,255 7. 8.7 Shichinin no samurai (1954) 44,045 8. 8.7 Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (1980) 132,756 9. 8.7 Buono, il brutto, il cattivo, Il (1966) 44,698 10. 8.7 Pulp Fiction (1994) 174,144 now i will copy the 10 top sales (all time, worlwide) Rank Title Worldwide Box Office 1. Titanic (1997) $1,835,300,000 2. The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003) $1,129,219,252 3. Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (2001) $968,600,000 4. Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace (1999) $922,379,000 5. The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (2002) $921,600,000 6. Jurassic Park (1993) $919,700,000 7. Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (2005) $892,194,397 8. Shrek 2 (2004) $880,871,036 9. Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (2002) $866,300,000 10. Finding Nemo (2003) $865,000,000 now, you can tell, hey, The Godfather is a 30 year movie, so it is not going to be on the list cause back then there were less theaters, and it was cheaper to buy a ticket. great, but at least people would still buy it now, or rent it from blockbuster. 28 May Top 50 United States Video Rentals for the week ending 4 June 2006 Rank Prev Rank Title Days This Week Rental Gross Buy from Amazon.com 1. New Date Movie (2006) 5 $9.58M $9.58M Buy 2. New Freedomland (2006) 5 $8.76M $8.76M Buy 3. 1 Cheaper by the Dozen 2 (2005) 12 $6.34M $13.6M Buy 4. 2 The Ringer (2005) 19 $5.44M $19.7M Buy 5. 3 When a Stranger Calls (2006) 19 $5.01M $18.3M Buy 6. 4 Munich (2005) 26 $4.11M $24.1M Buy 7. 10 Rumor Has It... (2005) 26 $3.92M $18.4M Buy 8. 6 The Family Stone (2005) 33 $3.88M $28.9M Buy 9. 7 Transamerica (2005) 12 $3.78M $8.13M Buy 10. 9 Last Holiday (2006) 33 $3.71M $25.1M Buy as you see, all of them are great movies so, please, someone explain me the line between 6'5 million suscribers and "quality game"
6.5 million people find the quality of this game so high that they are preapred to vote with their wallets.
And each month they cast the same vote again. At anytime they believe the game to be not so high quality, they will stop subscribing.
The number of products sold is a good indication that it is deemed to be of quality or value. If the same product is resold to the same people each month, you can bet they are not dissatisfied with it.
None of these things make one game better than another or objectively prove WoW's worth. It does however provide some pretty solid evidence to support that thesis.
It is clear that 6.5 million people believe WoW to be a quality game. At £10 a vote, their opinions have a gravitas not found on any free forum poll.
Well just because a lot of people bought the game and play the game doesn't mean its great. WoW is a reallly well thought out and put together game but it has its problems and after being out for awhile now with the expansion still not in sight and problems that were plaguing the game a year ago still there such as raiders vs non raiders the insane pvp grind. People have just had enough so of course people are leaving reevaluating what they thought of the game. Vivendi has actually told Kaplan to fix this raid or die mentality with Burning Crusade because they are losing more people than are coming in lately.
Wow is fun to play with friends and all for a maximum of 1 year. After that you have done everything, and so to speak, you have finished the game. Thats what happened to me, so I quited.
Originally posted by baff 6.5 million people find the quality of this game so high that they are preapred to vote with their wallets. And each month they cast the same vote again. At anytime they believe the game to be not so high quality, they will stop subscribing. The number of products sold is a good indication that it is deemed to be of quality or value. If the same product is resold to the same people each month, you can bet they are not dissatisfied with it. None of these things make one game better than another or objectively prove WoW's worth. It does however provide some pretty solid evidence to support that thesis. It is clear that 6.5 million people believe WoW to be a quality game. At £10 a vote, their opinions have a gravitas not found on any free forum poll.
can you say that anybody that regularly stops at McDonald's and grabs a BigMac and a Coca Cola thinks that they are quality food&drink? i bet most people spend more money every month on MCDonald's/Burguer King/Pizza Hut/Insert your favorite fast food restaurant here than on MMORPGs, yet nobody would claim that they are quality food.
you know how many people keep drinking Coca Cola time after time? do you think every time they buy a can they think "yeah, this is a really quality drink!!"
you can say that it is what they want, what they like, or what they prefer, but not that they believe that mcdonalds is the best place to eat.
so, 6'5 million people want to play and pay for WoW. that only tell me that a big majority of MMORPG players, prefer to play WoW than any other game, but that doesnt mean it is better than other games, or even that they think it is better. it is just what they want to play, and i dare to say, it is what they want to play for a short time (2 months average). hell, 2 months, i play more to my single player games than that.
anybody saying that 6'5 million players is an indication of quality is making a huge leap.
Fact is mmoprgs gain a huge amount of people at launch then gradually lose over the coarse, however World of Warcraft was a really easy game to play and level in. Anyone new to mmorpg saw a great game with a good story. Something I hate is a game where people resort to multiple accounts and bots to level and gather money to sell, and I hate those who buy it. When you have to do something which isn't normal to really play a game it ruins it. The community of World of Warcraft is driving me nuts I dont want to get togather with 40 people I do not know and listen to one bossy nerd who doesnt even sound like hes worked a hard day in his life think hes a god, and dont get me started on the kids and teens from warcraft 3 and diablo2 who ruined a good social enviroment. I remeber back when I first started with Darkage of Camelot you didnt see or even hear about bots, having more then one account it was just about fun and meeting new people. People who think there elite because they can play in a virtual world and get the best items and rub it in peoples face make me sick and if I ever met another adult who talked like that I'd give him the lecture his father didn't give him in a heartbeat. All I see is a bunch of damn spoiled kids and age isn't always a factor.
Comments
Er...because it's great?
I don't really mind if you don't think it's great, or prefer other games, or think you're married to an 8 year old bottom feeding gold farmer.
I am however intrested in evidence based assertions. So if someone says it is a poor quality game, or unpopular and I think the evidence does not support that argument I will say so.
The evidence suggests that a response time from an Eve server is going to be longer than the response time from a WoW server. This matches my personal opinion, but not yours. You offer no substantiation and offer no conscessions to your bias. You might as well not have bothered to mention it.
it's super easy to play BUT then you hit max level and for some reason NOW you're expected to spend the rest of your life farming an instance with a bunch of morons for 500 hours, and then on to the next instance for another 500 hours of farming
Why do you feel that to enjoy a game, you must spend the rest of your life playing it?
Personally, when I have completed as much as I want to, I move on.
What's going to happen when you start enjoying doughnuts? Will you feel expected to spend the next 500 hours eating them and then onto another bakery for the next 500 hours after that?
Or when you realise that you have eaten as many doughnuts as you want will you then scorn all the other people who have ever eaten doughnuts and dared to say they enjoyed them?
The number of boxes sold is not given out.
The numbers you see published for WoW are for active subscribers only.
6.5 million active subscribers worldwide.
I have no idea how many boxes have been sold, although I do know they broke Halo 2's previous record for the fastest selling video game of all time. So that's over 900,000 on the first day in the U.S.
Double the current sub numbers for WoW and that will probably get you pretty close to boxes sold for WoW. The majority of those would be in NA and UK with the balance being bought by cafe's in Asia.
A Chinese ping would be around 300 to London. While playable, I find anything over 100 noticeable. Since I am paying for premium service, I don't approve of any ping's I can notice. If they had a seperate North American server for Eve, lag would be noticeably reduced.
I do play WoW on Eu servers and have never experienced any problems. Similarly I suppose, if Eve had localised servers they could stagger their roll outs and raise the standard for most of it's players too.
A Chinese ping would be around 300 to London. While playable, I find anything over 100 noticeable. Since I am paying for premium service, I don't approve of any ping's I can notice. If they had a seperate North American server for Eve, lag would be noticeably reduced.
I do play WoW on Eu servers and have never experienced any problems. Similarly I suppose, if Eve had localised servers they could do the same thing and raise the standard for most of it's players too.
Agreed. For anyone outside europe the ping times to EVE are pretty painful sometimes. One of the many reasons I stopped playing it was connectivity issues with having to hop the pond to play.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I'm going to enage in some more spurious guesstimating for laugh.
Wow grossed $292 million in the U.S. in 2005.
1 million players at $15 for 12 months = 180 million 112 million /box price of 50 = roughly 2 million.
I concur with your estimation. I was expecting the retention rate to be lower than that. I have no idea what it is in other games.
Satistically, I expect Continental Europe to match U.K. sales. and U.S. sales to roughly equal either of those two. If WoW sells proprotionally like other PC games. I think I read somewhere that China has an effective market of 386 million. I'd like to see what kind of a proportion of sales they represent.
A Chinese ping would be around 300 to London. While playable, I find anything over 100 noticeable. Since I am paying for premium service, I don't approve of any ping's I can notice. If they had a seperate North American server for Eve, lag would be noticeably reduced.
I do play WoW on Eu servers and have never experienced any problems. Similarly I suppose, if Eve had localised servers they could stagger their roll outs and raise the standard for most of it's players too.
If you count 3 1/2 years new to the game then ok. They have never patched on Friday. Hotfixes are done daily as necessary as they are server-side fixes only, client patches are always done on tuesday or wednesday.
A CS server sends far more information back and forth than a WoW server period, a 100-tick CS server for instance is sending 100 updates a second per player back to the server, which in turn then has to update every other player on the server with that info. Compare this to a WoW server where there may be 100 updates a minute or less. Why else do you think they haven't done a true MMOFPS yet? It's because everyone who wants to connect would need a fibre connection to be able to handle the data transmission.
WoW's hardware for all of their servers likely cost them AT MOST 5 million, so yes you are likely off by a hell of a lot.
A Chinese ping would be around 300 to London. While playable, I find anything over 100 noticeable. Since I am paying for premium service, I don't approve of any ping's I can notice. If they had a seperate North American server for Eve, lag would be noticeably reduced.
I do play WoW on Eu servers and have never experienced any problems. Similarly I suppose, if Eve had localised servers they could do the same thing and raise the standard for most of it's players too.
Agreed. For anyone outside europe the ping times to EVE are pretty painful sometimes. One of the many reasons I stopped playing it was connectivity issues with having to hop the pond to play.
I connect from Ontario, Canada and our network up here is pretty crappy, we have to hop all the way down to the U.S. before jumping overseas. I have never had any major lag issues with EVE, though I did have them with WoW.
Read the mmogchart faq, he makes "best guess" when he has no hard data. He has no insider information to all those companies and thus cannot make even remotely accurate accounting. Blizzard for example is very vague at best at their numbers but they would like everyone to think they have 5 million active accounts. Only they know the truth.
Cheers.
Vivendi noted 5 million in their annual report, are you saying they are lying in their 2005 annual report?
Units sold is not active accounts, they have never said how many active accounts they have. Also is that sold to stores like Best Biuy/Walmart or to customers?
His site is no more "accurate" than the rankings/polls here.
That is not units sold that is SUBSCRIBERS. Since it is clear that you didn't look at Vivendi's Annual Report here is what it says:
Page 20: September 2005 - Blizzard's World of Warcraft exceeds 4 million subscribers.
Pages 21: January 2006 - Blizzard's World of Warcraft, the subscription based mmorpg, passes the 5.5 million customers mark.
These numbers are pretty close to what is shown on his chart.
I am not saying wow isn't the most sold game, I am saying mmogchart is not accurate because almost no companies make public their active subscriber base.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
Careful. Hate against those who hate a game is just as blind. Saying WOW has no problems is just as ignorant as saying it has no good qualities.
Watch that line between healthy debate and hypocrisy. It's mighty thin...
No it doesn't. A CS server sends very little info. It sends the change in any vector state of the players in the AOI. And it sends the player state. It also sends changes in the worldstate. Bullet holes or bullet vectors.
In other words it sends the 3D location and direction the player is facing, if it has changed, and also what that player looks like, crouched/erect and weapon type firing or not firing. A CS map is optimised so that there are a minimum of players in the AOI at the same time. The chances of all 16 players on a 16 player server being in eachother AOI at the sametime is almost non existent.
A Wow server sends all this same data, but it also sends a lot more player state data. As players are all customised in numerous ways. further to this it sends AI positions too.
The real key difference is the AOI and number of players in the server. In CS if 3players can all see each other, each player must be sent the 2 data sets for for each of the other players each tick. A total of 9 data sets are sent each tick. If 8 players can see eachother a total of 64 data sets are sent each tick. The bandwidth increases exponentially.
So in Ogrimmar if 100 players can see eachother, 10,000 dataset (each one larger than a CS packet) are sent. The bandwidth used for Ogrimmar alone is 150 times as much as a CS server.
Tickrate is the number of times those packets/datasets are sent per second. a neat trick to reduce bandwidth usuage at the expense of CPU load is to increase the tickrate. A higher tickrate actually results in lower bandwidth usuage.
And this is why.....
Each tick, the game does not send every dataset for every player. It only sends the ones that have changed from the last time. It sends updates, not the entire gamestate each tick. The more frequently the server sends these data sets, the less likely the players are to have moved. The smaller the number of datasets transmitted.
Using our previous sample figures, 64 data sets sent 10 (or even 100) times as often as 10,000 data sets sent once, is a seriously lot less bandwidth. Obviously all my figures are invented (as usual), but they demonstrate the theory.
Planetside is an MMOFPS, it uses vastly more bandwidth than a CS server and a vastly more powerful computer. Sacrifices to processing power are noticeably made by reducing the number of hit boxes found in CS. Planetside is also poorly optimised, it does not use prediction so warping/packetloss although no more frequent, is much more apparent to the naked eye.
i feel informed!!
I am not saying wow isn't the most sold game, I am saying mmogchart is not accurate because almost no companies make public their active subscriber base.
Actually they go into some detail to explain that it is active subscribers.
It is the number of active subscribers, including people on their starter first month and including active game card accounts in China.
They realise that their figures are meaningless unless qualified.
Many companies make public their active subscriber bases in their quarterly and yearly stock holder reports. Often you will be able to find these for yourself in the investor sections of their websites. These are their progress reports to the owners of the public companies, it is illegal to lie about them or falsely represent yourself. People who get caught doing so get the Enron treatment.
hamburger. eat.
then tell me more how cool you think it is to interrupt memorial services because I'M the one that's emo. seriously, eat the burger, enjoy it, have a blast, please don't infest any game that's halfway decent.
idiots have no opinions. fanbois have no opinions. they just regurgitate the burger and keep on trucking in their bliss.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
what wow fanboys have yet to explain is the line between "most popular", "most played" and "most sold" game and "highest quality game", which is what rankings are about.
rankings do not take into consideration sales or popularity. so, can any wow fanboy explain why "most popular, played, and sold game"="highest quality game"?
just for thought, what is most popular, and sold drink on earth? is it the best drink?
what is the most popular restaurant? is the best food served there?
what are the most viewed movie on theaters last year? are they the best?
who is the singer/band with most copies sold on the last years? are they the best singers/bands you can find on a music store?
what's the most popular book these days and the one that sold more? is it the best book that you can find on a library?
is diablo 2 a better RPG than Planescape Torment just because it sold many more copies and is far more popular?
i will copy here the 10 top rated movies on IMDb
Rank Rating Title Votes
1. 9.1 The Godfather (1972) 166,573
2. 9.0 The Shawshank Redemption (1994) 200,515
3. 8.9 The Godfather: Part II (1974) 95,032
4. 8.8 The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003) 150,713
5. 8.8 Casablanca (1942) 82,885
6. 8.8 Schindler's List (1993) 123,255
7. 8.7 Shichinin no samurai (1954) 44,045
8. 8.7 Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (1980) 132,756
9. 8.7 Buono, il brutto, il cattivo, Il (1966) 44,698
10. 8.7 Pulp Fiction (1994) 174,144
now i will copy the 10 top sales (all time, worlwide)
Rank Title Worldwide Box Office
1. Titanic (1997) $1,835,300,000
2. The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003) $1,129,219,252
3. Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (2001) $968,600,000
4. Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace (1999) $922,379,000
5. The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (2002) $921,600,000
6. Jurassic Park (1993) $919,700,000
7. Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (2005) $892,194,397
8. Shrek 2 (2004) $880,871,036
9. Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (2002) $866,300,000
10. Finding Nemo (2003) $865,000,000
now, you can tell, hey, The Godfather is a 30 year movie, so it is not going to be on the list cause back then there were less theaters, and it was cheaper to buy a ticket. great, but at least people would still buy it now, or rent it from blockbuster.
28 May
Top 50 United States Video Rentals
for the week ending 4 June 2006
Rank Prev
Rank Title Days This Week Rental Gross Buy from
Amazon.com
1. New Date Movie (2006) 5 $9.58M $9.58M Buy
2. New Freedomland (2006) 5 $8.76M $8.76M Buy
3. 1 Cheaper by the Dozen 2 (2005) 12 $6.34M $13.6M Buy
4. 2 The Ringer (2005) 19 $5.44M $19.7M Buy
5. 3 When a Stranger Calls (2006) 19 $5.01M $18.3M Buy
6. 4 Munich (2005) 26 $4.11M $24.1M Buy
7. 10 Rumor Has It... (2005) 26 $3.92M $18.4M Buy
8. 6 The Family Stone (2005) 33 $3.88M $28.9M Buy
9. 7 Transamerica (2005) 12 $3.78M $8.13M Buy
10. 9 Last Holiday (2006) 33 $3.71M $25.1M Buy
as you see, all of them are great movies
so, please, someone explain me the line between 6'5 million suscribers and "quality game"
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
6.5 million people find the quality of this game so high that they are preapred to vote with their wallets.
And each month they cast the same vote again. At anytime they believe the game to be not so high quality, they will stop subscribing.
The number of products sold is a good indication that it is deemed to be of quality or value. If the same product is resold to the same people each month, you can bet they are not dissatisfied with it.
None of these things make one game better than another or objectively prove WoW's worth. It does however provide some pretty solid evidence to support that thesis.
It is clear that 6.5 million people believe WoW to be a quality game. At £10 a vote, their opinions have a gravitas not found on any free forum poll.
can you say that anybody that regularly stops at McDonald's and grabs a BigMac and a Coca Cola thinks that they are quality food&drink? i bet most people spend more money every month on MCDonald's/Burguer King/Pizza Hut/Insert your favorite fast food restaurant here than on MMORPGs, yet nobody would claim that they are quality food.
you know how many people keep drinking Coca Cola time after time? do you think every time they buy a can they think "yeah, this is a really quality drink!!"
you can say that it is what they want, what they like, or what they prefer, but not that they believe that mcdonalds is the best place to eat.
so, 6'5 million people want to play and pay for WoW. that only tell me that a big majority of MMORPG players, prefer to play WoW than any other game, but that doesnt mean it is better than other games, or even that they think it is better. it is just what they want to play, and i dare to say, it is what they want to play for a short time (2 months average). hell, 2 months, i play more to my single player games than that.
anybody saying that 6'5 million players is an indication of quality is making a huge leap.
Fact is mmoprgs gain a huge amount of people at launch then gradually lose over the coarse, however World of Warcraft was a really easy game to play and level in. Anyone new to mmorpg saw a great game with a good story. Something I hate is a game where people resort to multiple accounts and bots to level and gather money to sell, and I hate those who buy it. When you have to do something which isn't normal to really play a game it ruins it. The community of World of Warcraft is driving me nuts I dont want to get togather with 40 people I do not know and listen to one bossy nerd who doesnt even sound like hes worked a hard day in his life think hes a god, and dont get me started on the kids and teens from warcraft 3 and diablo2 who ruined a good social enviroment. I remeber back when I first started with Darkage of Camelot you didnt see or even hear about bots, having more then one account it was just about fun and meeting new people. People who think there elite because they can play in a virtual world and get the best items and rub it in peoples face make me sick and if I ever met another adult who talked like that I'd give him the lecture his father didn't give him in a heartbeat. All I see is a bunch of damn spoiled kids and age isn't always a factor.