Originally posted by Pride7 Originally posted by damian7 you posted:
Fact 3 - WOW has been in the top 5 best selling PC games in the US since it released over a year ago.
i corrected you to say it was 19 months, not JUST over a year. but i can't read with comprehension?
And the award for dumbest post of the day goes to...
Last time I checked 19 months is over a year. Keep screaming the sky is falling Chicken Little.
because if i say "it's only been out over a year" that means the same as "19 months" right? no, the insinuation is that it's been out about 13ish months.
why make the distinction? does it have an expansion out? is it testing an expansion? how long do /quote good /unquote games take for expansions?
but i can't read with comprehension, says the name-caller. brilliant~!!
i see you still say "numba one bazillion sales, easy to find this information", and yet no numbers of box sales. brilliant~!!
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by lomiller Originally posted by Pride7 I can show you facts that prove WOW has been in the top 5 best selling PC games since launch,
So, WoW box sales + WoW game card sales edge out some lame Sims sequel for sales in the retail market? This isn’t exactly a glowing endorsement to begin with and the retail market is increasingly becoming a non factor for PC game sales. My local EBgames doesn’t even carry PC games except for their bargain bin and more and more PC gamers are relying on other distribution methods to get their software.
More to the point sales is not and has never been a reflection of quality. While very poor quality can kill a product even that isn’t absolute. The key to high sales is the ability to sucker sheep into buying a mediocre product. The truly excellent products seldom top the sales charts unless they have no competition. It’s all about branding, marketing, and market position, these are the things that result in high sales, not the quality of the product.
This site, is a little different then the mass market. It caters to a fairly specific audience. The readers here are typically better informed, older have experienced more games then the typical WoW subscriber. It’s also got more of a North American/European focus. If you are a mature, veteran MMO player from North America or Europe the opinions of people who frequent this site are a far better barometer of what you are going to enjoy then simply looking at sales.
In 2005 PC Game retail sales were over $950 million dollars, I would hardly call that a non-factor. If I am a business I would care more about what the mass market thinks then what a site with under 400k members thinks. Also, WOW is a very welled reviewed game by the members and reviewers of this site along with countless other review sites/magazines. Combine great reviews with top unit sales and you have a winner.
Originally posted by damian7 didn't i say no more silliness, missy?how many boxes have been sold? your fanboi'ism is showing.
Whines and moans that it gets an "unwarranted personal attack". Gee, I wonder why? You are a shit-stirrer extraordinaire that only jumps into threads to start shit and cause fights. With brainless and illogical reasoning, I may add.
You've been here two months and I doubt you've posted anything that wasn't inflammatory...or brainless.
wait. three stars/advanced member. member since 4/12/03. doesn't that mean that YOU haven't contributed a whole lot?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
WoW is still growing, it maybe losing numbers when people have got to the endgame and got bored, but the game is still gaining lots of new players. Apparently, its gained 4million in the Asian market, which is huge.
Originally posted by nomadian WoW is still growing, it maybe losing numbers when people have got to the endgame and got bored, but the game is still gaining lots of new players. Apparently, its gained 4million in the Asian market, which is huge.
exactly. it's taking asia by storm. like another person pointed out, they could easily lose all of north america (and possibly europe) and live for years on just the asian market. see, the numbers are out there, 4 million in asia, that's a whole lot of subs.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by Pride7 Originally posted by damian7 you posted:
Fact 3 - WOW has been in the top 5 best selling PC games in the US since it released over a year ago.
i corrected you to say it was 19 months, not JUST over a year. but i can't read with comprehension?
And the award for dumbest post of the day goes to...
Last time I checked 19 months is over a year. Keep screaming the sky is falling Chicken Little.
because if i say "it's only been out over a year" that means the same as "19 months" right? no, the insinuation is that it's been out about 13ish months.
why make the distinction? does it have an expansion out? is it testing an expansion? how long do /quote good /unquote games take for expansions?
but i can't read with comprehension, says the name-caller. brilliant~!!
i see you still say "numba one bazillion sales, easy to find this information", and yet no numbers of box sales. brilliant~!!
You keep digging and digging don't you, lol! Over a year and 19 months = the same thing. But apparently that is news to you, no need to thank me today's lesson is free of charge however tomorrow I will have to bill you my hourly rate
With your comprehension skills and jealous rage I am not surprised you see things like bazillion sales. If the total box sales is so easy to find why not produce it? Oh that's right you haven't produced any facts, you just have theories. Keep up the good work, with you on the case Blizzard will be sure to rethink their entire US strategy!
pride7, how many boxes have been sold, i mean numba 1 in sales and all? are there really 4 million asian subs out of that 5-6 million sub total?
pride7, when is the last time a good mmo took 2 years+ to come out with it's first expansion? 13 months and "we're almost to an expansion" sort of sounds normalish. 19 months is still in that normal range. 2+ years (christmas or later), is not really normal. can you make the distinction?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
WoW's ratings are falling simply because it doesn't really offer anything DIFFERENT from any other Fantasy MMORPG out there, so when newer ones come along people leave, just like every other MMO and when they find something they like BETTER they rate it appropriately and downgrade their rating of WoW.
WoW's rating will probably stabalize in the 8.0-8.1 range along with the rest of the games on this site.
Doesn't surprise me at all. Took longer than I thought it would (thanks mostly to the lack of any decent MMO releases other than GW and GW/Factions (which technically speaking aren't exactly MMO's but play enough like one to be considered as such).
Nope, this is normal. Every DECENT mmo jumps to the top of the charts when it first releases then slowly slides down as time goes by. EVE has been the sole MMORPG to buck that trend so far on this site. Which says a lot about it's quality...
And before someone hollers at me about being a fanboy... I don't like EVE... but I'm willing to admit it's a very well done game.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
exactly. it's taking asia by storm. like another person pointed out, they could easily lose all of north america (and possibly europe) and live for years on just the asian market. see, the numbers are out there, 4 million in asia, that's a whole lot of subs.
You see I'm also not a fan of WoW, I think a lot of mmorpgs did things better, but I do think it is a good but not great game. However, I think you have to admit WoW is still gaining sales and subscribers whether it be in Asia or America and Europe. Amazon have WoW as second hottest-seller in the PC market, it is still growing. But you are right in that it is also losing subscribers, it is inevitable people will grow bored of it and quit.
Originally posted by damian7 pride7, how many boxes have been sold, i mean numba 1 in sales and all? are there really 4 million asian subs out of that 5-6 million sub total?
pride7, when is the last time a good mmo took 2 years+ to come out with it's first expansion? 13 months and "we're almost to an expansion" sort of sounds normalish. 19 months is still in that normal range. 2+ years (christmas or later), is not really normal. can you make the distinction?
Same damian7 - no fact and poor comprehension skills. If the original WOW is in the top 5 in sales since launch why come out with an expansion? I said I do not know how many units they sold, what I said is they have been in the top 5 since launch, a claim I have substaniated with facts. You claim they can't keep subs so why not provide how many boxes they sold and compare that to how many subs they have. Also compare sales with subs for other MMOs so you can provide a baseline for average retention. I mean you had to have some kind of data to substantiate your claims right? LOL I forgot who I was talking to, the person that has no facts only theories.
Prove that 4 million of the subs are Asian - you can't, again you are talking to points that have no facts. Keep dodging the request to provide facts and saying the same thing over and over, your tap dance is entertaining.
Prove that 4 million of the subs are Asian - you can't, again you are talking to points that have no facts.
Sorry this was from me, the guy who does the mmorpg chart stated this.(SirBruce)
I found the statement you are referring to, here it is "WoW has acquired 6.5 million subscribers worldwide, including 1 million in Europe and somewhere between 1.4 and 2 million in North America, with most of the remainder in China." so it is correct 3.5M to 4M from China.
To the point of this thread: The best rated MMO as of May 2006, Eve has 121,156 subscribers. I think that should show that ratings on this site aren't necessarily in touch with that of the entire gaming population.
In 2005 PC Game retail sales were over $950 million dollars, I would hardly call that a non-factor. If I am a business I would care more about what the mass market thinks then what a site with under 400k members thinks. Also, WOW is a very welled reviewed game by the members and reviewers of this site along with countless other review sites/magazines. Combine great reviews with top unit sales and you have a winner.
$950 million in a $100 billion industry is small potatoes in my opinion.
At $15 per month and 6.5 million subscriptions and ~4 million new boxes sold WoW alone should be bringing in almost $1.5 billion all by itself. If WoW by itself dwarfs the entire retail PC game market how relevant can statistic from this market be for evaluating MMO popularity?
Yes WoW is very popular, but we have no demographics to show how the population is changing in the NA market and as many people have pointed out popularity usually doesn’t have a lot of correlation with quality. What we do know is that WoW stock has been in a steady decline amongst the veteran MMO players who frequent this site. This is worth taking note of.
(On a side note I can’t really see evidence in Vivendi’s annual report of this much income so there is probably some discrepancy in the way the number of subscriptions are tracked. One possible explanation for this would be a very large Asian market where subscriptions tend to be handled slightly differently.)
Originally posted by Pride7 Originally posted by nomadian
Prove that 4 million of the subs are Asian - you can't, again you are talking to points that have no facts.
Sorry this was from me, the guy who does the mmorpg chart stated this.(SirBruce)
I found the statement you are referring to, here it is "WoW has acquired 6.5 million subscribers worldwide, including 1 million in Europe and somewhere between 1.4 and 2 million in North America, with most of the remainder in China." so it is correct 3.5M to 4M from China. we've already established that i'm too stupid to come up with the numbers. you found this, means you must've been looking for sales' figures and couldn't find those eh? but instead of saying "can't find 'em, i'm looking" you instead go the opposite route, challenging me, who we've established - am stupid - to find them.
honestly, more power to them, i pray they keep the gold farmers and little kids for ever and ever. with that population, they can have millions and millions. d2 got real old with the "gogogogogogo" crowd. please let wow have those people for ever. leave those people out of the games i want to play.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by Pride7 In 2005 PC Game retail sales were over $950 million dollars, I would hardly call that a non-factor. If I am a business I would care more about what the mass market thinks then what a site with under 400k members thinks. Also, WOW is a very welled reviewed game by the members and reviewers of this site along with countless other review sites/magazines. Combine great reviews with top unit sales and you have a winner.
$950 million in a $100 billion industry is small potatoes in my opinion.
At $15 per month and 6.5 million subscriptions and ~4 million new boxes sold WoW alone should be bringing in almost $1.5 billion all by itself. If WoW by itself dwarfs the entire retail PC game market how relevant can statistic from this market be for evaluating MMO popularity?
Yes WoW is very popular, but we have no demographics to show how the population is changing in the NA market and as many people have pointed out popularity usually doesn’t have a lot of correlation with quality. What we do know is that WoW stock has been in a steady decline amongst the veteran MMO players who frequent this site. This is worth taking note of.
(On a side note I can’t really see evidence in Vivendi’s annual report of this much income so there is probably some discrepancy in the way the number of subscriptions are tracked. One possible explanation for this would be a very large Asian market where subscriptions tend to be handled slightly differently.)
The PC Game Sales market is not $100 Billion dollars. The quote I was referencing was "the retail market is increasingly becoming a non factor for PC game sales" retail PC game sales were $950 Million is 2005. I do not know the entire PC Game Sales dollars but I have to imaging $950 Million make up over 75% of the PC Game Sales. Also note that RETAIL PC GAME Sales doesn't include subscriptions just unit sales.
I am not sure how much Vivendi gets from each sub if they get anything at all. They may just get a portion of the unit sale which is still good money as the price has stayed pretty flat and it has been on the shelf for over a year - remember over a year and 19 months = the same thing I know a guy at Vivendi next time I see him I will ask.
Originally posted by Pride7 To the point of this thread: The best rated MMO as of May 2006, Eve has 121,156 subscribers. I think that should show that ratings on this site aren't necessarily in touch with that of the entire gaming population.
What makes you think anyone here cares about some hypothetical “overall gaming population”? I don’t live in Asia or have Asian sensibilities about what makes a game enjoyable, I don’t come from a battlenet background, I don’t come from a Diablo background. Why would I care what games appeal to subscribers who have a history of likening styles of play that I have disliked?
Even if quality were more important then marketing and riding out a fad in determining subscriber numbers these numbers would mean nothing to the readership at this site because most of these subscribers have very different sensibilities then the readership of a site like this one.
Oh and for the record, the subscriber trend in EVE is exactly what you would expect from a small company breaking into an existing market with a high quality product targeted at a specific niche of that market. With no big brand name to draw customers you get a slow but steady influx of subscribers due to word of mouth and then combine this with great retention of existing customers. So, overall sales trend do support the notion that EVE is in fact a very high quality game.
Originally posted by lomiller Originally posted by Pride7 To the point of this thread: The best rated MMO as of May 2006, Eve has 121,156 subscribers. I think that should show that ratings on this site aren't necessarily in touch with that of the entire gaming population.
What makes you think anyone here cares about some hypothetical “overall gaming population”? I don’t live in Asia or have Asian sensibilities about what makes a game enjoyable, I don’t come from a battlenet background, I don’t come from a Diablo background. Why would I care what games appeal to subscribers who have a history of likening styles of play that I have disliked?
Even if quality were more important then marketing and riding out a fad in determining subscriber numbers these numbers would mean nothing to the readership at this site because most of these subscribers have very different sensibilities then the readership of a site like this one.
Oh and for the record, the subscriber trend in EVE is exactly what you would expect from a small company breaking into an existing market with a high quality product targeted at a specific niche of that market. With no big brand name to draw customers you get a slow but steady influx of subscribers due to word of mouth and then combine this with great retention of existing customers. So, overall sales trend do support the notion that EVE is in fact a very high quality game.
Speak for yourself. I care, for one. asian players are just as much mmorpg players as western. I see no reason why we shouldn´t include them.
Originally posted by kparton Originally posted by Spathotan I avoid Rouge and Hunter because of the rouge issue there, and because Hunters are generally the same, they offer nothing to the group at all and are a purely selfish class. My highest character is only level 29, im not in any hurry to hit 60, so what I do is always roll alts, right now I have a 19 Warlock, 29 Paladin and a 13 Warrior. Ive been playing for almost 4 months straight and about 7 all together and thats all i have. I had a 33 Paladin on Gilneas but shes been abandoned due to gold farmer invasion.
Its Flippin Rogue for the love of all that is holy and nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GODDAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!ARRRRRG!!!!!!!!
/explode
Typos, get over it.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now." Boba Fett
In 2005 PC Game retail sales were over $950 million dollars, I would hardly call that a non-factor. If I am a business I would care more about what the mass market thinks then what a site with under 400k members thinks. Also, WOW is a very welled reviewed game by the members and reviewers of this site along with countless other review sites/magazines. Combine great reviews with top unit sales and you have a winner.
$950 million in a $100 billion industry is small potatoes in my opinion.
At $15 per month and 6.5 million subscriptions and ~4 million new boxes sold WoW alone should be bringing in almost $1.5 billion all by itself. If WoW by itself dwarfs the entire retail PC game market how relevant can statistic from this market be for evaluating MMO popularity?
Yes WoW is very popular, but we have no demographics to show how the population is changing in the NA market and as many people have pointed out popularity usually doesn’t have a lot of correlation with quality. What we do know is that WoW stock has been in a steady decline amongst the veteran MMO players who frequent this site. This is worth taking note of.
(On a side note I can’t really see evidence in Vivendi’s annual report of this much income so there is probably some discrepancy in the way the number of subscriptions are tracked. One possible explanation for this would be a very large Asian market where subscriptions tend to be handled slightly differently.)
The PC Game Sales market is not $100 Billion dollars. The quote I was referencing was "the retail market is increasingly becoming a non factor for PC game sales" retail PC game sales were $950 Million is 2005. I do not know the entire PC Game Sales dollars but I have to imaging $950 Million make up over 75% of the PC Game Sales. Also note that RETAIL PC GAME Sales doesn't include subscriptions just unit sales.
I am not sure how much Vivendi gets from each sub if they get anything at all. They may just get a portion of the unit sale which is still good money as the price has stayed pretty flat and it has been on the shelf for over a year - remember over a year and 19 months = the same thing I know a guy at Vivendi next time I see him I will ask.
Blizzard is a division of Vivendi not an independent company. Vivendi get’s 100% of everything Blizzard takes in.
The PC gaming market isn’t $100 billion but the relevant fact is that the overall gaming market is; which is one of the reasons retail outlets don’t pay a lot of attention to PC games these days. The other reason is that PC’s are almost all web enabled giving PC gamers many more options for getting their games.
Not only does $950million not make up 75% of the PC gaming market, it doesn’t even reach 75% of market size for a single PC game, WoW. The retail market is simply not a good barometer of what is popular with serious PC games, which is why you see games like the Sims dominating retail PC game sales.
Subjectivly, WoW is the best MMORPG on the market but thats just my opinion, Im not a professional reviewer, I dont run a website, so my opionion doenst have much Clout.
WoW has countless amazing reviews from credible people. That, while still being subjetive, should be worth something.
For a more qualitative approach to WoW and its rankings. how can we determine the quality of a game. # of players - This doesnt lie, there is no way to bend thing, this is a number of poeple who play, or currently playing. You cant argue with numbers. Profits - These dont lie either, you cant warp them, you just compare them straight. In business, the more money you make, the more of a sucess you are. I dont care what you say, money runs the world. If you make more, you didnt better. A game is a business lets judge it as such. Updates - Not a good idea to judge.. how much is enough, when is it not enough, when are the patches too fast and pointless. This is FAAR too subjective. So were not gona touch this one, its too subjective and personal. Rankings - Subjective, but these count for something. People look at these, these influence people. This is importaint, I wouldnt rank it as much as Profits or players, becuase this is a very subjective quality, but it is also influencial... For the sake of my argument tho, I will ignore these due to the fact they are subjective. I like it Whoopdy dee. I liked the Movie Van Wilder, does that make it a sucess. As a business venure, no. Ground Breaking says who.. according to who, is there a number you can assign to the "groundbreaking-ness" of a game? No, you cant and thus, it is a subjective quality.
Now, some of you might be thinking, Whats wrong with subjective qualities? They count for something. Yes, I would love to say your personal opinion matters for something, but in the end, it matters for very little. On forums you get your ideas across and that gives your opinions a little more validity, but in the end, you as a person have very little clout. Your opinion is just the opinion of one of the millions if people out there. I wont kid myself, I like WoW, but I dont think thats enough reason to call the game a sucess. Im just a student sitting here on my laptop playing a game. Sure Im a MMORPG vet, but so are other people with contrasting opinions. Whos is more valid? Nobodies.. and thats not a reference to KoH :P
In terms of subscribers and profits, Few games have captured the market like WoW has. ESPECIALLY in the American market. MMOcharts appears to be down atm, but last I checked WoW was growning in player base, and shows no sign of stopping, especially since a expansion pack is comming. Now, EVE is a fun game, but does it churn out the profits of WoW? does it have the same player Base? So your Qualitative Analysis of the game may differ, but honestly, everyones will, so who really cares what some guys in California who plays mmorpgs thinks? If I was looking for a game and I wanted some Opinions then yes, I wouldnt mind his unput, but honestly, when ranking games, qualitative assesment has no value really.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by lomiller
Originally posted by Pride7 To the point of this thread: The best rated MMO as of May 2006, Eve has 121,156 subscribers. I think that should show that ratings on this site aren't necessarily in touch with that of the entire gaming population.
What makes you think anyone here cares about some hypothetical “overall gaming population”? I don’t live in Asia or have Asian sensibilities about what makes a game enjoyable, I don’t come from a battlenet background, I don’t come from a Diablo background. Why would I care what games appeal to subscribers who have a history of likening styles of play that I have disliked?
Even if quality were more important then marketing and riding out a fad in determining subscriber numbers these numbers would mean nothing to the readership at this site because most of these subscribers have very different sensibilities then the readership of a site like this one.
Oh and for the record, the subscriber trend in EVE is exactly what you would expect from a small company breaking into an existing market with a high quality product targeted at a specific niche of that market. With no big brand name to draw customers you get a slow but steady influx of subscribers due to word of mouth and then combine this with great retention of existing customers. So, overall sales trend do support the notion that EVE is in fact a very high quality game.
Speak for yourself. I care, for one. asian players are just as much mmorpg players as western. I see no reason why we shouldn´t include them. You also have to look at retention rates and churn, the average subscriber retention rates in most MMO's is 2 months or less, WoW included. For EVE the sub retention rate has just gone from 7 to 12 months. That is a huge difference. So while EVE may have lower subscriber numbers overall, it's subscribers stay for a long time. For WoW to have sold as many units as it has and to only have 6 million active subs means their turnover has to be astronomical. As soon as their new subs start coming in slower than people leave, their numbers will drop like a rock. This will likely start happening when some of the new MMO's start to be released (AoC, etc.)
As for EVE, when the China server opens it's population will essentially double, surpassing SWG and possibly EQ2 in a short time. I believe it opens in July.
For the person who was wondering how much sub revenew Vivendi gets from WoW subscriptions, all of it minus server/employee/bandwidth costs, Blizzard was bought out by Vivendi before WoW ever came out. Blizzard is essentially just a brand now. All of their talent left to form other companies already anyways so thier name is meaningless for me now anyways.
Originally posted by lomiller Originally posted by Pride7 To the point of this thread: The best rated MMO as of May 2006, Eve has 121,156 subscribers. I think that should show that ratings on this site aren't necessarily in touch with that of the entire gaming population.
What makes you think anyone here cares about some hypothetical “overall gaming population”? I don’t live in Asia or have Asian sensibilities about what makes a game enjoyable, I don’t come from a battlenet background, I don’t come from a Diablo background. Why would I care what games appeal to subscribers who have a history of likening styles of play that I have disliked?
Even if quality were more important then marketing and riding out a fad in determining subscriber numbers these numbers would mean nothing to the readership at this site because most of these subscribers have very different sensibilities then the readership of a site like this one.
Oh and for the record, the subscriber trend in EVE is exactly what you would expect from a small company breaking into an existing market with a high quality product targeted at a specific niche of that market. With no big brand name to draw customers you get a slow but steady influx of subscribers due to word of mouth and then combine this with great retention of existing customers. So, overall sales trend do support the notion that EVE is in fact a very high quality game.
I have absolutely no idea what your point is. If it is "who cares what the 6.5M people playing WOW think, I think Eve is a better game and so do the majority of the people on this site" I would say you are entitled to your opinion and this site is definately a fan favorite for Eve players. My point is/was this site is a representation of a small sample of MMO players, but the entire US gaming community is a lot bigger than the 400k members of this site and WOW has proven to be the fan favorite for the majority of the US gaming population. That doesn't make it a better game than Eve or Eve a better game than it, what it does is make it a more profitable game.
Originally posted by Minsc You also have to look at retention rates and churn, the average subscriber retention rates in most MMO's is 2 months or less, WoW included. For EVE the sub retention rate has just gone from 7 to 12 months. That is a huge difference. So while EVE may have lower subscriber numbers overall, it's subscribers stay for a long time. For WoW to have sold as many units as it has and to only have 6 million active subs means their turnover has to be astronomical. As soon as their new subs start coming in slower than people leave, their numbers will drop like a rock. This will likely start happening when some of the new MMO's start to be released (AoC, etc.)
Where "only" is a very poor choice of word.
I noticed that the subs for City of Heros fell persistently until the expansion pack. At which point, the "churn" factor worked in it's favour. As all those people who have finished the game and moved on are potential customers for the next installment.
COH subs went up by 1/3.
With this in mind I think WoW subs are going to go ballistic this Christmas. It really hasn't come close to peaking yet.
Comments
And the award for dumbest post of the day goes to...
Last time I checked 19 months is over a year. Keep screaming the sky is falling Chicken Little.
because if i say "it's only been out over a year" that means the same as "19 months" right? no, the insinuation is that it's been out about 13ish months.
why make the distinction? does it have an expansion out? is it testing an expansion? how long do /quote good /unquote games take for expansions?
but i can't read with comprehension, says the name-caller. brilliant~!!
i see you still say "numba one bazillion sales, easy to find this information", and yet no numbers of box sales. brilliant~!!
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
So, WoW box sales + WoW game card sales edge out some lame Sims sequel for sales in the retail market? This isn’t exactly a glowing endorsement to begin with and the retail market is increasingly becoming a non factor for PC game sales. My local EBgames doesn’t even carry PC games except for their bargain bin and more and more PC gamers are relying on other distribution methods to get their software.
More to the point sales is not and has never been a reflection of quality. While very poor quality can kill a product even that isn’t absolute. The key to high sales is the ability to sucker sheep into buying a mediocre product. The truly excellent products seldom top the sales charts unless they have no competition. It’s all about branding, marketing, and market position, these are the things that result in high sales, not the quality of the product.
This site, is a little different then the mass market. It caters to a fairly specific audience. The readers here are typically better informed, older have experienced more games then the typical WoW subscriber. It’s also got more of a North American/European focus. If you are a mature, veteran MMO player from North America or Europe the opinions of people who frequent this site are a far better barometer of what you are going to enjoy then simply looking at sales.
In 2005 PC Game retail sales were over $950 million dollars, I would hardly call that a non-factor. If I am a business I would care more about what the mass market thinks then what a site with under 400k members thinks. Also, WOW is a very welled reviewed game by the members and reviewers of this site along with countless other review sites/magazines. Combine great reviews with top unit sales and you have a winner.
Whines and moans that it gets an "unwarranted personal attack". Gee, I wonder why? You are a shit-stirrer extraordinaire that only jumps into threads to start shit and cause fights. With brainless and illogical reasoning, I may add.
You've been here two months and I doubt you've posted anything that wasn't inflammatory...or brainless.
wait. three stars/advanced member. member since 4/12/03. doesn't that mean that YOU haven't contributed a whole lot?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
And the award for dumbest post of the day goes to...
Last time I checked 19 months is over a year. Keep screaming the sky is falling Chicken Little.
because if i say "it's only been out over a year" that means the same as "19 months" right? no, the insinuation is that it's been out about 13ish months.
why make the distinction? does it have an expansion out? is it testing an expansion? how long do /quote good /unquote games take for expansions?
but i can't read with comprehension, says the name-caller. brilliant~!!
i see you still say "numba one bazillion sales, easy to find this information", and yet no numbers of box sales. brilliant~!!
You keep digging and digging don't you, lol! Over a year and 19 months = the same thing. But apparently that is news to you, no need to thank me today's lesson is free of charge however tomorrow I will have to bill you my hourly rate
With your comprehension skills and jealous rage I am not surprised you see things like bazillion sales. If the total box sales is so easy to find why not produce it? Oh that's right you haven't produced any facts, you just have theories. Keep up the good work, with you on the case Blizzard will be sure to rethink their entire US strategy!
pride7, when is the last time a good mmo took 2 years+ to come out with it's first expansion? 13 months and "we're almost to an expansion" sort of sounds normalish. 19 months is still in that normal range. 2+ years (christmas or later), is not really normal. can you make the distinction?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
WoW's rating will probably stabalize in the 8.0-8.1 range along with the rest of the games on this site.
Doesn't surprise me at all. Took longer than I thought it would (thanks mostly to the lack of any decent MMO releases other than GW and GW/Factions (which technically speaking aren't exactly MMO's but play enough like one to be considered as such).
Nope, this is normal. Every DECENT mmo jumps to the top of the charts when it first releases then slowly slides down as time goes by. EVE has been the sole MMORPG to buck that trend so far on this site. Which says a lot about it's quality...
And before someone hollers at me about being a fanboy... I don't like EVE... but I'm willing to admit it's a very well done game.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Same damian7 - no fact and poor comprehension skills. If the original WOW is in the top 5 in sales since launch why come out with an expansion? I said I do not know how many units they sold, what I said is they have been in the top 5 since launch, a claim I have substaniated with facts. You claim they can't keep subs so why not provide how many boxes they sold and compare that to how many subs they have. Also compare sales with subs for other MMOs so you can provide a baseline for average retention. I mean you had to have some kind of data to substantiate your claims right? LOL I forgot who I was talking to, the person that has no facts only theories.
Prove that 4 million of the subs are Asian - you can't, again you are talking to points that have no facts. Keep dodging the request to provide facts and saying the same thing over and over, your tap dance is entertaining.
I found the statement you are referring to, here it is "WoW has acquired 6.5 million subscribers worldwide, including 1 million in Europe and somewhere between 1.4 and 2 million in North America, with most of the remainder in China." so it is correct 3.5M to 4M from China.
To the point of this thread: The best rated MMO as of May 2006, Eve has 121,156 subscribers. I think that should show that ratings on this site aren't necessarily in touch with that of the entire gaming population.
$950 million in a $100 billion industry is small potatoes in my opinion.
At $15 per month and 6.5 million subscriptions and ~4 million new boxes sold WoW alone should be bringing in almost $1.5 billion all by itself. If WoW by itself dwarfs the entire retail PC game market how relevant can statistic from this market be for evaluating MMO popularity?
Yes WoW is very popular, but we have no demographics to show how the population is changing in the NA market and as many people have pointed out popularity usually doesn’t have a lot of correlation with quality. What we do know is that WoW stock has been in a steady decline amongst the veteran MMO players who frequent this site. This is worth taking note of.
(On a side note I can’t really see evidence in Vivendi’s annual report of this much income so there is probably some discrepancy in the way the number of subscriptions are tracked. One possible explanation for this would be a very large Asian market where subscriptions tend to be handled slightly differently.)
I found the statement you are referring to, here it is "WoW has acquired 6.5 million subscribers worldwide, including 1 million in Europe and somewhere between 1.4 and 2 million in North America, with most of the remainder in China." so it is correct 3.5M to 4M from China.
we've already established that i'm too stupid to come up with the numbers. you found this, means you must've been looking for sales' figures and couldn't find those eh? but instead of saying "can't find 'em, i'm looking" you instead go the opposite route, challenging me, who we've established - am stupid - to find them.
honestly, more power to them, i pray they keep the gold farmers and little kids for ever and ever. with that population, they can have millions and millions. d2 got real old with the "gogogogogogo" crowd. please let wow have those people for ever. leave those people out of the games i want to play.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
$950 million in a $100 billion industry is small potatoes in my opinion.
At $15 per month and 6.5 million subscriptions and ~4 million new boxes sold WoW alone should be bringing in almost $1.5 billion all by itself. If WoW by itself dwarfs the entire retail PC game market how relevant can statistic from this market be for evaluating MMO popularity?
Yes WoW is very popular, but we have no demographics to show how the population is changing in the NA market and as many people have pointed out popularity usually doesn’t have a lot of correlation with quality. What we do know is that WoW stock has been in a steady decline amongst the veteran MMO players who frequent this site. This is worth taking note of.
(On a side note I can’t really see evidence in Vivendi’s annual report of this much income so there is probably some discrepancy in the way the number of subscriptions are tracked. One possible explanation for this would be a very large Asian market where subscriptions tend to be handled slightly differently.)
The PC Game Sales market is not $100 Billion dollars. The quote I was referencing was "the retail market is increasingly becoming a non factor for PC game sales" retail PC game sales were $950 Million is 2005. I do not know the entire PC Game Sales dollars but I have to imaging $950 Million make up over 75% of the PC Game Sales. Also note that RETAIL PC GAME Sales doesn't include subscriptions just unit sales.
I am not sure how much Vivendi gets from each sub if they get anything at all. They may just get a portion of the unit sale which is still good money as the price has stayed pretty flat and it has been on the shelf for over a year - remember over a year and 19 months = the same thing
I know a guy at Vivendi next time I see him I will ask.
What makes you think anyone here cares about some hypothetical “overall gaming population”? I don’t live in Asia or have Asian sensibilities about what makes a game enjoyable, I don’t come from a battlenet background, I don’t come from a Diablo background. Why would I care what games appeal to subscribers who have a history of likening styles of play that I have disliked?
Even if quality were more important then marketing and riding out a fad in determining subscriber numbers these numbers would mean nothing to the readership at this site because most of these subscribers have very different sensibilities then the readership of a site like this one.
Oh and for the record, the subscriber trend in EVE is exactly what you would expect from a small company breaking into an existing market with a high quality product targeted at a specific niche of that market. With no big brand name to draw customers you get a slow but steady influx of subscribers due to word of mouth and then combine this with great retention of existing customers. So, overall sales trend do support the notion that EVE is in fact a very high quality game.
What makes you think anyone here cares about some hypothetical “overall gaming population”? I don’t live in Asia or have Asian sensibilities about what makes a game enjoyable, I don’t come from a battlenet background, I don’t come from a Diablo background. Why would I care what games appeal to subscribers who have a history of likening styles of play that I have disliked?
Even if quality were more important then marketing and riding out a fad in determining subscriber numbers these numbers would mean nothing to the readership at this site because most of these subscribers have very different sensibilities then the readership of a site like this one.
Oh and for the record, the subscriber trend in EVE is exactly what you would expect from a small company breaking into an existing market with a high quality product targeted at a specific niche of that market. With no big brand name to draw customers you get a slow but steady influx of subscribers due to word of mouth and then combine this with great retention of existing customers. So, overall sales trend do support the notion that EVE is in fact a very high quality game.
Speak for yourself. I care, for one. asian players are just as much mmorpg players as western. I see no reason why we shouldn´t include them.
Its Flippin Rogue for the love of all that is holy and nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GODDAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!ARRRRRG!!!!!!!!
/explode
Typos, get over it.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
Boba Fett
The PC gaming market isn’t $100 billion but the relevant fact is that the overall gaming market is; which is one of the reasons retail outlets don’t pay a lot of attention to PC games these days. The other reason is that PC’s are almost all web enabled giving PC gamers many more options for getting their games.
Not only does $950million not make up 75% of the PC gaming market, it doesn’t even reach 75% of market size for a single PC game, WoW. The retail market is simply not a good barometer of what is popular with serious PC games, which is why you see games like the Sims dominating retail PC game sales.
Subjectivly, WoW is the best MMORPG on the market
but thats just my opinion, Im not a professional reviewer, I dont run a website, so my opionion doenst have much Clout.
WoW has countless amazing reviews from credible people. That, while still being subjetive, should be worth something.
For a more qualitative approach to WoW and its rankings.
how can we determine the quality of a game.
# of players
- This doesnt lie, there is no way to bend thing, this is a number of poeple who play, or currently playing. You cant argue with numbers.
Profits
- These dont lie either, you cant warp them, you just compare them straight. In business, the more money you make, the more of a sucess you are. I dont care what you say, money runs the world. If you make more, you didnt better. A game is a business lets judge it as such.
Updates
- Not a good idea to judge.. how much is enough, when is it not enough, when are the patches too fast and pointless. This is FAAR too subjective. So were not gona touch this one, its too subjective and personal.
Rankings
- Subjective, but these count for something. People look at these, these influence people. This is importaint, I wouldnt rank it as much as Profits or players, becuase this is a very subjective quality, but it is also influencial... For the sake of my argument tho, I will ignore these due to the fact they are subjective.
I like it
Whoopdy dee. I liked the Movie Van Wilder, does that make it a sucess. As a business venure, no.
Ground Breaking
says who.. according to who, is there a number you can assign to the "groundbreaking-ness" of a game? No, you cant and thus, it is a subjective quality.
Now, some of you might be thinking, Whats wrong with subjective qualities? They count for something.
Yes, I would love to say your personal opinion matters for something, but in the end, it matters for very little. On forums you get your ideas across and that gives your opinions a little more validity, but in the end, you as a person have very little clout. Your opinion is just the opinion of one of the millions if people out there. I wont kid myself, I like WoW, but I dont think thats enough reason to call the game a sucess. Im just a student sitting here on my laptop playing a game. Sure Im a MMORPG vet, but so are other people with contrasting opinions. Whos is more valid?
Nobodies.. and thats not a reference to KoH :P
In terms of subscribers and profits, Few games have captured the market like WoW has. ESPECIALLY in the American market. MMOcharts appears to be down atm, but last I checked WoW was growning in player base, and shows no sign of stopping, especially since a expansion pack is comming. Now, EVE is a fun game, but does it churn out the profits of WoW? does it have the same player Base?
So your Qualitative Analysis of the game may differ, but honestly, everyones will, so who really cares what some guys in California who plays mmorpgs thinks? If I was looking for a game and I wanted some Opinions then yes, I wouldnt mind his unput, but honestly, when ranking games, qualitative assesment has no value really.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
What makes you think anyone here cares about some hypothetical “overall gaming population”? I don’t live in Asia or have Asian sensibilities about what makes a game enjoyable, I don’t come from a battlenet background, I don’t come from a Diablo background. Why would I care what games appeal to subscribers who have a history of likening styles of play that I have disliked?
Even if quality were more important then marketing and riding out a fad in determining subscriber numbers these numbers would mean nothing to the readership at this site because most of these subscribers have very different sensibilities then the readership of a site like this one.
Oh and for the record, the subscriber trend in EVE is exactly what you would expect from a small company breaking into an existing market with a high quality product targeted at a specific niche of that market. With no big brand name to draw customers you get a slow but steady influx of subscribers due to word of mouth and then combine this with great retention of existing customers. So, overall sales trend do support the notion that EVE is in fact a very high quality game.
Speak for yourself. I care, for one. asian players are just as much mmorpg players as western. I see no reason why we shouldn´t include them.
You also have to look at retention rates and churn, the average subscriber retention rates in most MMO's is 2 months or less, WoW included. For EVE the sub retention rate has just gone from 7 to 12 months. That is a huge difference. So while EVE may have lower subscriber numbers overall, it's subscribers stay for a long time. For WoW to have sold as many units as it has and to only have 6 million active subs means their turnover has to be astronomical. As soon as their new subs start coming in slower than people leave, their numbers will drop like a rock. This will likely start happening when some of the new MMO's start to be released (AoC, etc.)
As for EVE, when the China server opens it's population will essentially double, surpassing SWG and possibly EQ2 in a short time. I believe it opens in July.
For the person who was wondering how much sub revenew Vivendi gets from WoW subscriptions, all of it minus server/employee/bandwidth costs, Blizzard was bought out by Vivendi before WoW ever came out. Blizzard is essentially just a brand now. All of their talent left to form other companies already anyways so thier name is meaningless for me now anyways.
The PC game sales market for North America in 2005 was about 1.4 billion USD
The P.C. game sales market in the U.K. in 2005 about 1.2 billion USD
The P.C. game sales market in Continental Europe was about 1 billion USD.
Figures courtesy of ELSPA/ESA.
$950 million in a $100 billion industry is small potatoes in my opinion.
A few more useless statistics.
Total video games sales (All platforms) in the U.S.A. for 2005 were 13.4 Billion USD.
PC games make up about 1/10th of all video games sales in North America.
PC games make up about 1/5th of all video games sales in the U.K.
PC games make up about 1/3 of all video games sales in the E.U.
What makes you think anyone here cares about some hypothetical “overall gaming population”? I don’t live in Asia or have Asian sensibilities about what makes a game enjoyable, I don’t come from a battlenet background, I don’t come from a Diablo background. Why would I care what games appeal to subscribers who have a history of likening styles of play that I have disliked?
Even if quality were more important then marketing and riding out a fad in determining subscriber numbers these numbers would mean nothing to the readership at this site because most of these subscribers have very different sensibilities then the readership of a site like this one.
Oh and for the record, the subscriber trend in EVE is exactly what you would expect from a small company breaking into an existing market with a high quality product targeted at a specific niche of that market. With no big brand name to draw customers you get a slow but steady influx of subscribers due to word of mouth and then combine this with great retention of existing customers. So, overall sales trend do support the notion that EVE is in fact a very high quality game.
I have absolutely no idea what your point is. If it is "who cares what the 6.5M people playing WOW think, I think Eve is a better game and so do the majority of the people on this site" I would say you are entitled to your opinion and this site is definately a fan favorite for Eve players. My point is/was this site is a representation of a small sample of MMO players, but the entire US gaming community is a lot bigger than the 400k members of this site and WOW has proven to be the fan favorite for the majority of the US gaming population. That doesn't make it a better game than Eve or Eve a better game than it, what it does is make it a more profitable game.
Where "only" is a very poor choice of word.
I noticed that the subs for City of Heros fell persistently until the expansion pack. At which point, the "churn" factor worked in it's favour. As all those people who have finished the game and moved on are potential customers for the next installment.
COH subs went up by 1/3.
With this in mind I think WoW subs are going to go ballistic this Christmas. It really hasn't come close to peaking yet.