Is anyone else surprised that WoW's expansion is so far away from the initial release date? I would have thought 18 months post release is about as long as you should go....
Originally posted by wjrasmussen Is anyone else surprised that WoW's expansion is so far away from the initial release date? I would have thought 18 months post release is about as long as you should go....
well, rumor (once you're away from the fanbois) is that kaplan was told to color and that the expansion NEEDs a LOT more non-raid content and other things as well. all kaplan knows is raiding (ya know, hardcore EQ'er with no life for a few years...) maybe they should hire someone with talent?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by wjrasmussen Is anyone else surprised that WoW's expansion is so far away from the initial release date? I would have thought 18 months post release is about as long as you should go....
I believe they intended to be in Beta just about...............now!
Why? Christmas. They need a number of months to beta test, then publish it and have in stores by beginning of december.
However I suspect the expansion was originally heavily geared towards raiding. They are now faced with the fact that about 80% of their players would vehemently dislike and be angered by their original intentions for the expansion. So they have been set back some months retooling things.
Further Blizzard has lost an a$$-ton of programmers and designers. All of Blizzard North is gone. The Guild Wars people left a long time ago (one was lead programmer of WoW). Steig Hedlund(Gods and Heroes now) is gone (original Lead design). Red 5 Studios has alot of former guys. Mythic now has at least a few former major guys at Blizzard(Oh the irony is sooooo ironic in so many ways). Oddly most of this massive hemorhagging(except GW guys) started right around when Kaplan was hired. Even more odd he had no qualifications for the job except being in Rob Pardo's EQ guild. Blizzard most likely never recovered from this mass exodus. They lost an incredible amount of talent and given how incestuous the gaming industry is, its probably extremely hard to recover from that. And if the stuff I hinted at is even remotely true, filling positions with comparable talent will be quite hard. Did you know that Tom Chilton aka Kalgan (PvP lead designer) is in fact Evocare from UO? He changed UO pvp to an item based paradigm from what I have read. Sound familiar?
So basically horrible design missteps and serious serious personnel problems = badly delayed expansion.
Originally posted by gestalt11 a bunch of stuff...
gestalt11, do you have a site or five that detail the migrations of the leads of MMOGs over time? I'd love to get some more education in my head about where all the braintrust from all the MMOGs has come from and gone to.
The ratings on this site are not accurate... there are fanboyz that will slam a game they aren't playing and artificially elevate the game they currently play...
Overall, I think the list does show accurately what the top games are... as long as you realize it's not a scientific evaluation.
As for WoW... I loved the game. I played it unitl I had maxed out 3 characters and then frankly, I left because I just didn't have the time or patience to organize the 40-man raids that are so big in the end-game.
It's a shame, because I really did enjoy my guild, and the game in general. I don't blame the game for my leaving really, it's my own personal preferences and issues, I guess.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Vagabond Spirit in search of a home... * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Which FF Character Are You?
Originally posted by Gameloading Nope, it has nothing to do with it. This site is visited by a lot of EVE players. hence the reason EVE is on top. WoW is the most popular game, but also the most hated. a lot of people are jealous of WoW´s success and give it low rates, altough not many will admit that.
WoW isn´t losing any subscribers. in fact, if we can believe mmochart, then the numbers NEVER dropped. they only keep growing and growing. you can´t build a tower without a strong base. not many people are leaving as some haters would like to see.
I consider myself an MMO veteran. I played both western and korean MMO´s. and let me tell you, its been a looooooong time since I had as much fun as I did in WoW. WoW felt right, and it was FUN. it was finally a complete MMO.
Jealous of a games success?!?!?!
I'm not sure that's really the correct emotion. How can someone be jealous of a video game? It's not a person.
I have a soul and a heartbeat. Therefore, WoW should be jealous of me.
Originally posted by gestalt11 a bunch of stuff...
gestalt11, do you have a site or five that detail the migrations of the leads of MMOGs over time? I'd love to get some more education in my head about where all the braintrust from all the MMOGs has come from and gone to.
Flagship Studios (founded in 2003 ): David Brevik, Bill Roper, Erich Schaefer, Max Schaefer, Kenneth Williams, Dave Glenn, Peter Hu, Phil Shenk, Tyler Thompson, Matt Householder, Christian Arretche, Jason Felix, Brennan Plunkett, Charlie Lapp and Marc Tattersall.
Castaway Entertainment: Michael Scandizzo, Stefan Scandizzo, Alan Ackerman, Rick Seis, Ted Bisson, Bruno Bowden, Peter Brevik, Michael Huang, Kelly Johnson (artist), Michio Okamura, Tom Ricket, and Fredrick Vaught.
Arena.net (founded around 2000): Mike O'Brien,Patrick Wyatt,Jeff Strain,James Phinney,Eric Flannum, and Tommy Park
Red-5 Studios: Mark Kern, William Petras, Taewon Yun, Harley D. Huggins II, John Burnett, Daniel Buckler, and Brian Hsu.
Hyboreal Games: Michio Okamura, Eric Sexton, and Steven Woo .
Gods and Heroes Steig Hedlund
Mythic Zexsus, Blizzards Ex lead GM
Not an exhaustive list. You can google most of those companies they have Bios for alot of these guys. Doubt mythic's site mentions Zexsus though.
Flasgship and Castaway are mostly Blizzard North. Blizzard North was shutdown since it lost 90% of its employees. Blizz north was always semi-autonomous(mostly doing Diablo stuff), but many of them still worked on various WC titles as well. So they are still a signigicant loss. Just read Bill Roper's bio to see that.
As for things like Evocare's migration from UO to WoW and reincarnated as Kalgan. That took alot of forum trolling and was mostly by accident and I don't really document these things, although I did confirm that that one is in fact true by googling Evocare and Tom Chilton once I saw it mentioned in a forum by an apalled poster. To be fair Chilton's E3 interview was the only halfway decent Blizzard thing I saw and I really don't know his history at UO, but it is interesting either way. Kaplan's interview made me physically ill, it was like he was talking to a child. Chilton's hit alot of the right marks towards what I think a large portion of the community want. Whether he is a bad or good I have no idea. I gave up on WoW months ago, so its all academic to me.
Originally posted by gestalt11 Originally posted by Svayvti The top MMOs are top because of asian players, have the world's population lives in two countries in Asia. I would honestly be surprised if their U.S. market isn't losing steam and dying off. But WoW's overall subscriber base will continue to soar anyways because they add 10 asians for every 1 U.S. player that leaves. Just as when Starcraft was dying off in the U.S., sales were still soaring in east asia.
I have a very strong suspicion that WoW has lost a substantial chunk of US players and are bleeding US players are a fiarly nasty rate. However I suspect they are gaining in China at a probably greater rate. However I also have a strong suspicion they are growing a very large population of US anti-fanbois. Wow fanbois have always particularly virulent and the anti-fanbois will probably be jsut as bad. I suspect the US-based anti-fanboi thing will eventually destroy the most valuable thing Blizzard had; its good press/reputation. Financially they may do fine as Asia will most likely prop them up for some time to come. PR wise Pardo/Kaplan are running them into the ground.
While your suspicion may tell you WOW is losing players in the US the facts tell a different story. WOW continues to be on the top 5 PC Games Selling List in the US each and every week since it launched. It regularly trades places with the Sims for the #1 spot and occassionally gets dropped to the #3 slot when a hot new title releases but then it is right back to the top. So even if WOW was bleeding US players (which there is no proof or report of other than forum gossip) they are adding thousands of players each week.
Here in NZ like many western countires people are dumping as its A) To expensive for what it offers and All about the leet items you get and C) Old and out of style.
WoW never was worth the hype it had. Sure it was a fun game and a decent MMO but nothing superb or groundbreaking. The ratings will drop b/c it is about damn time, it is fairly old game and hasn't offered anything new in a long time. RIP IMO.
Originally posted by Pride7 While your suspicion may tell you WOW is losing players in the US the facts tell a different story. WOW continues to be on the top 5 PC Games Selling List in the US each and every week since it launched. It regularly trades places with the Sims for the #1 spot and occassionally gets dropped to the #3 slot when a hot new title releases but then it is right back to the top. So even if WOW was bleeding US players (which there is no proof or report of other than forum gossip) they are adding thousands of players each week.
Point #1 - I've not seen WoW in a top 5 list in a long time. Not from any of the big box stores that make up the bulk of PC game sales in the U.S. and not from any of the game shop stores like ebgames that most gamers frequent. Does WoW still sell well? Yes, I have no doubt they're still making good money off the box. However, I don't think they're gaining people faster than they're losing them at this point.
Point #2 - Nobody has brought it up here yet, but they will. Blizzard opens new servers. Yes, but there are a few reasons for this. Chiefly blizzard's server suck and always have. They not only have problems with a few players in the same spot but also with too many characters saved in the database on a server. The RP servers are without doubt dying and don't even deserve the designation. You've got a lot of people hopping PvP servers and a lot of PvPers have characters on multiple PvP servers. Furthermore you have a U.S. server to Oceania migration.
Now why do I think WoW is dwindling? Primarily personal observation. I started at launch and have left 3 times and gone back. There are a lot of new faces all the time and people hop, but overall the economy feels smaller, the raiding/teaming pool seems smaller, and places in general all seem less crowded.
Furthermore the most telling is Blizzard themself. They're never shy about advertising a major milestone in population figures whether it is in N. America, Europe, Asia or all combined. When was the last time they specifically bragged about N. America? It has been quite a while, and they haven't changed their practice of bragging about world numbers or asian numbers.
Originally posted by Pride7 People can trash WOW but the truth is it is a GREAT game that appeals to a broad range of players - you can say it sucks or X is better but realize that is your opinion. The majority of the gamers disagree which is why WOW is #1.
well, by your reasoning, X-MEN 3, and The Da Vinci Code are great movies. in fact, Da Vinci Code must be the best movie ever. just by sales, they are far better than Crash, or Memento, or Pulp Fiction.
Hell, even Godzilla is a better movie than Memento.
is it so hard to admit that the game you like is not the best on the market, just the most popular?
Originally posted by Pride7 Originally posted by gestalt11 Originally posted by Svayvti The top MMOs are top because of asian players, have the world's population lives in two countries in Asia. I would honestly be surprised if their U.S. market isn't losing steam and dying off. But WoW's overall subscriber base will continue to soar anyways because they add 10 asians for every 1 U.S. player that leaves. Just as when Starcraft was dying off in the U.S., sales were still soaring in east asia.
I have a very strong suspicion that WoW has lost a substantial chunk of US players and are bleeding US players are a fiarly nasty rate. However I suspect they are gaining in China at a probably greater rate. However I also have a strong suspicion they are growing a very large population of US anti-fanbois. Wow fanbois have always particularly virulent and the anti-fanbois will probably be jsut as bad. I suspect the US-based anti-fanboi thing will eventually destroy the most valuable thing Blizzard had; its good press/reputation. Financially they may do fine as Asia will most likely prop them up for some time to come. PR wise Pardo/Kaplan are running them into the ground.
While your suspicion may tell you WOW is losing players in the US the facts tell a different story. WOW continues to be on the top 5 PC Games Selling List in the US each and every week since it launched. It regularly trades places with the Sims for the #1 spot and occassionally gets dropped to the #3 slot when a hot new title releases but then it is right back to the top. So even if WOW was bleeding US players (which there is no proof or report of other than forum gossip) they are adding thousands of players each week. Yeah this is called "churn".
Originally posted by Pride7 Originally posted by gestalt11 Originally posted by Svayvti The top MMOs are top because of asian players, have the world's population lives in two countries in Asia. I would honestly be surprised if their U.S. market isn't losing steam and dying off. But WoW's overall subscriber base will continue to soar anyways because they add 10 asians for every 1 U.S. player that leaves. Just as when Starcraft was dying off in the U.S., sales were still soaring in east asia.
I have a very strong suspicion that WoW has lost a substantial chunk of US players and are bleeding US players are a fiarly nasty rate. However I suspect they are gaining in China at a probably greater rate. However I also have a strong suspicion they are growing a very large population of US anti-fanbois. Wow fanbois have always particularly virulent and the anti-fanbois will probably be jsut as bad. I suspect the US-based anti-fanboi thing will eventually destroy the most valuable thing Blizzard had; its good press/reputation. Financially they may do fine as Asia will most likely prop them up for some time to come. PR wise Pardo/Kaplan are running them into the ground.
While your suspicion may tell you WOW is losing players in the US the facts tell a different story. WOW continues to be on the top 5 PC Games Selling List in the US each and every week since it launched. It regularly trades places with the Sims for the #1 spot and occassionally gets dropped to the #3 slot when a hot new title releases but then it is right back to the top. So even if WOW was bleeding US players (which there is no proof or report of other than forum gossip) they are adding thousands of players each week. has everyone seen the coca-cola/wow commercial? if you're asian you probably have. it's not in english, nor is it in the U.S. of A.
why don't we have coca-cola/wow or anything/wow commercials in the U.S., but in other countries they do?
oh, it must be because the U.S. playerbase is steadily growing. it's also because people are buying the boxed game and playing it for months and months and not only playing wow for a month then going "this is crap" and quitting. it's very obvious that the USA doesn't have */wow commercials because out of those 6.5 million subs, at LEAST 6.2 million of them are U.S.-based. that's also why we have so many commercials where mean bosses turn into orcs and get their booties kicked by hot ninja-wow-babes. hmm, i think i just used those reasons to support and deny why we have advertising cross-overs influenced by wow. but wait, that goes along with what i'm refuting -- doesn't make any sense.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by Svayvti Originally posted by Pride7 While your suspicion may tell you WOW is losing players in the US the facts tell a different story. WOW continues to be on the top 5 PC Games Selling List in the US each and every week since it launched. It regularly trades places with the Sims for the #1 spot and occassionally gets dropped to the #3 slot when a hot new title releases but then it is right back to the top. So even if WOW was bleeding US players (which there is no proof or report of other than forum gossip) they are adding thousands of players each week.
Point #1 - I've not seen WoW in a top 5 list in a long time. Not from any of the big box stores that make up the bulk of PC game sales in the U.S. and not from any of the game shop stores like ebgames that most gamers frequent. Does WoW still sell well? Yes, I have no doubt they're still making good money off the box. However, I don't think they're gaining people faster than they're losing them at this point.
Point #2 - Nobody has brought it up here yet, but they will. Blizzard opens new servers. Yes, but there are a few reasons for this. Chiefly blizzard's server suck and always have. They not only have problems with a few players in the same spot but also with too many characters saved in the database on a server. The RP servers are without doubt dying and don't even deserve the designation. You've got a lot of people hopping PvP servers and a lot of PvPers have characters on multiple PvP servers. Furthermore you have a U.S. server to Oceania migration.
Now why do I think WoW is dwindling? Primarily personal observation. I started at launch and have left 3 times and gone back. There are a lot of new faces all the time and people hop, but overall the economy feels smaller, the raiding/teaming pool seems smaller, and places in general all seem less crowded.
Furthermore the most telling is Blizzard themself. They're never shy about advertising a major milestone in population figures whether it is in N. America, Europe, Asia or all combined. When was the last time they specifically bragged about N. America? It has been quite a while, and they haven't changed their practice of bragging about world numbers or asian numbers.
According to the latest NPD Group sales numbers World of Warcraft was the #2 Best Selling Game in the US (http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=10375). What I am telling you is fact, not suspicion, slanted personal observation, or anti-fanboi dreams but real world facts.
Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by Pride7 Originally posted by gestalt11 Originally posted by Svayvti The top MMOs are top because of asian players, have the world's population lives in two countries in Asia. I would honestly be surprised if their U.S. market isn't losing steam and dying off. But WoW's overall subscriber base will continue to soar anyways because they add 10 asians for every 1 U.S. player that leaves. Just as when Starcraft was dying off in the U.S., sales were still soaring in east asia.
I have a very strong suspicion that WoW has lost a substantial chunk of US players and are bleeding US players are a fiarly nasty rate. However I suspect they are gaining in China at a probably greater rate. However I also have a strong suspicion they are growing a very large population of US anti-fanbois. Wow fanbois have always particularly virulent and the anti-fanbois will probably be jsut as bad. I suspect the US-based anti-fanboi thing will eventually destroy the most valuable thing Blizzard had; its good press/reputation. Financially they may do fine as Asia will most likely prop them up for some time to come. PR wise Pardo/Kaplan are running them into the ground.
While your suspicion may tell you WOW is losing players in the US the facts tell a different story. WOW continues to be on the top 5 PC Games Selling List in the US each and every week since it launched. It regularly trades places with the Sims for the #1 spot and occassionally gets dropped to the #3 slot when a hot new title releases but then it is right back to the top. So even if WOW was bleeding US players (which there is no proof or report of other than forum gossip) they are adding thousands of players each week. has everyone seen the coca-cola/wow commercial? if you're asian you probably have. it's not in english, nor is it in the U.S. of A.
why don't we have coca-cola/wow or anything/wow commercials in the U.S., but in other countries they do?
oh, it must be because the U.S. playerbase is steadily growing. it's also because people are buying the boxed game and playing it for months and months and not only playing wow for a month then going "this is crap" and quitting. it's very obvious that the USA doesn't have */wow commercials because out of those 6.5 million subs, at LEAST 6.2 million of them are U.S.-based. that's also why we have so many commercials where mean bosses turn into orcs and get their booties kicked by hot ninja-wow-babes. hmm, i think i just used those reasons to support and deny why we have advertising cross-overs influenced by wow. but wait, that goes along with what i'm refuting -- doesn't make any sense.
I always figured it was because MMO's are nerdy. Also it seems the US only does commercials for console games. Morrowind never had a commercial, but now Oblivion does.
People can trash WOW but the truth is it is a GREAT game that appeals to a broad range of players - you can say it sucks or X is better but realize that is your opinion. The majority of the gamers disagree which is why WOW is #1.
well, by your reasoning, X-MEN 3, and The Da Vinci Code are great movies. in fact, Da Vinci Code must be the best movie ever. just by sales, they are far better than Crash, or Memento, or Pulp Fiction.
Hell, even Godzilla is a better movie than Memento.
is it so hard to admit that the game you like is not the best on the market, just the most popular?
Your analogy doesn't make any sense... WOW has been out for over a year and has been in the top 5 best selling games that entire time. If X-Men 3 is on top of the box office a year from now than your analogy would have merit.
Originally posted by Pride7 Originally posted by apertotes
Originally posted by Pride7
People can trash WOW but the truth is it is a GREAT game that appeals to a broad range of players - you can say it sucks or X is better but realize that is your opinion. The majority of the gamers disagree which is why WOW is #1.
well, by your reasoning, X-MEN 3, and The Da Vinci Code are great movies. in fact, Da Vinci Code must be the best movie ever. just by sales, they are far better than Crash, or Memento, or Pulp Fiction.
Hell, even Godzilla is a better movie than Memento.
is it so hard to admit that the game you like is not the best on the market, just the most popular?
Your analogy doesn't make any sense... WOW has been out for over a year and has been in the top 5 best selling games that entire time. If X-Men 3 is on top of the box office a year from now than your analogy would have merit. lmao, are you in kaplan/pardo's eq guild? i mean their wow guild?
roflmmfao.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by Pride7 Originally posted by gestalt11 Originally posted by Svayvti The top MMOs are top because of asian players, have the world's population lives in two countries in Asia. I would honestly be surprised if their U.S. market isn't losing steam and dying off. But WoW's overall subscriber base will continue to soar anyways because they add 10 asians for every 1 U.S. player that leaves. Just as when Starcraft was dying off in the U.S., sales were still soaring in east asia.
I have a very strong suspicion that WoW has lost a substantial chunk of US players and are bleeding US players are a fiarly nasty rate. However I suspect they are gaining in China at a probably greater rate. However I also have a strong suspicion they are growing a very large population of US anti-fanbois. Wow fanbois have always particularly virulent and the anti-fanbois will probably be jsut as bad. I suspect the US-based anti-fanboi thing will eventually destroy the most valuable thing Blizzard had; its good press/reputation. Financially they may do fine as Asia will most likely prop them up for some time to come. PR wise Pardo/Kaplan are running them into the ground.
While your suspicion may tell you WOW is losing players in the US the facts tell a different story. WOW continues to be on the top 5 PC Games Selling List in the US each and every week since it launched. It regularly trades places with the Sims for the #1 spot and occassionally gets dropped to the #3 slot when a hot new title releases but then it is right back to the top. So even if WOW was bleeding US players (which there is no proof or report of other than forum gossip) they are adding thousands of players each week. has everyone seen the coca-cola/wow commercial? if you're asian you probably have. it's not in english, nor is it in the U.S. of A.
why don't we have coca-cola/wow or anything/wow commercials in the U.S., but in other countries they do?
oh, it must be because the U.S. playerbase is steadily growing. it's also because people are buying the boxed game and playing it for months and months and not only playing wow for a month then going "this is crap" and quitting. it's very obvious that the USA doesn't have */wow commercials because out of those 6.5 million subs, at LEAST 6.2 million of them are U.S.-based. that's also why we have so many commercials where mean bosses turn into orcs and get their booties kicked by hot ninja-wow-babes. hmm, i think i just used those reasons to support and deny why we have advertising cross-overs influenced by wow. but wait, that goes along with what i'm refuting -- doesn't make any sense.
When you saw that commerical, what was the first thing that came to your mind? exactly, "WTF!?" In asia, things like that are very normal. its a diffrent culture, it has nothing to do with sale records.
I can't speak for the USA, but here in europe, WoW is still in every top 5 sell list, the price of the box never dropped once, and its the only game that has game time cards in every store that sell games.
Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by Pride7 Originally posted by gestalt11 Originally posted by Svayvti The top MMOs are top because of asian players, have the world's population lives in two countries in Asia. I would honestly be surprised if their U.S. market isn't losing steam and dying off. But WoW's overall subscriber base will continue to soar anyways because they add 10 asians for every 1 U.S. player that leaves. Just as when Starcraft was dying off in the U.S., sales were still soaring in east asia.
I have a very strong suspicion that WoW has lost a substantial chunk of US players and are bleeding US players are a fiarly nasty rate. However I suspect they are gaining in China at a probably greater rate. However I also have a strong suspicion they are growing a very large population of US anti-fanbois. Wow fanbois have always particularly virulent and the anti-fanbois will probably be jsut as bad. I suspect the US-based anti-fanboi thing will eventually destroy the most valuable thing Blizzard had; its good press/reputation. Financially they may do fine as Asia will most likely prop them up for some time to come. PR wise Pardo/Kaplan are running them into the ground.
While your suspicion may tell you WOW is losing players in the US the facts tell a different story. WOW continues to be on the top 5 PC Games Selling List in the US each and every week since it launched. It regularly trades places with the Sims for the #1 spot and occassionally gets dropped to the #3 slot when a hot new title releases but then it is right back to the top. So even if WOW was bleeding US players (which there is no proof or report of other than forum gossip) they are adding thousands of players each week. has everyone seen the coca-cola/wow commercial? if you're asian you probably have. it's not in english, nor is it in the U.S. of A.
why don't we have coca-cola/wow or anything/wow commercials in the U.S., but in other countries they do?
oh, it must be because the U.S. playerbase is steadily growing. it's also because people are buying the boxed game and playing it for months and months and not only playing wow for a month then going "this is crap" and quitting. it's very obvious that the USA doesn't have */wow commercials because out of those 6.5 million subs, at LEAST 6.2 million of them are U.S.-based. that's also why we have so many commercials where mean bosses turn into orcs and get their booties kicked by hot ninja-wow-babes. hmm, i think i just used those reasons to support and deny why we have advertising cross-overs influenced by wow. but wait, that goes along with what i'm refuting -- doesn't make any sense.
Has the US ever had a MMO on a Coke can? No, but if you are asian you have seen Lineage 1 and 2 on a Coke can. No one said WOW had 6.2 million US Subs, but I will say WOW has more US Subs than any other MMO on the market.
There sure are a lot of WOW haters on this board, fortunately for Blizzard/Vivendi the haters pale in comparison to the fans as they laugh all the way to the bank and will set even new US sub records once their expansion pack is released!
people like bringing up numbers, give me some numbers i keep asking for and everyone keeps ignoring ....
6.5 million subs right?
how many are from retail release?
what are the demographics and account lengths? i.e. 4.5 million u.s. based, 2 million asian based, etc. how long have those accounts been around? 4.5 million in the u.s. of which 100,000 are since the first month of retail, 500,000 are 16+ months old, 500,000 are 12-15 months old, 9-11 months, 6-8 months, 4-5 months, 1-3 months and less than one month.
i mean, it's the hottest selling box out there right? how many boxes have sold? i'm betting the number is a lot higher than 6.5 million. but keep telling me it's the hottest seller and that it ONLY has 6.5 million subs, you're building the case for "this game sucks" more than i ever could.
numbers, throw them out there, cuz everything you guys are saying is pointing to "we can't keep subs, people hate this game" and that you guys are cheering on a sinking ship in the hopes that good propaganda will undo the damage done by kaplan's mouth.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by Jhughesy WoW is a poor MMORPG for veterans but good for new players to MMORPG. The sheep are finally finding out that is has no depth or longevity.
yeah, that's why it's the best seller world-wide, more people keep trying it cuz of the pretty colors, it's also why they ONLY have a few million subs, versus... how many boxes have they sold and how many accounts via "bring a friend" promotion? and they can ONLY boast of a few million subs?
but hey, they're not losing any subs, no, none at all, they're growing exponentially, as the numbers from the fanbois in this thread will soon show.. right?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
You sir, are a Tool. If all, I repeat all, of the subscribers to the games listed on this site as 'more popular' than WoW were added together, they would represent but a fraction of the subscriber base of WoW.
WoW > EVE + GW + CoV + EQ2 + DAoC + CoH and probably a bunch more added in.
Just because the FanBoiz of the 'Higher Rated Games' flock to this site and post '10's across the board for thier game does not mean their game is 'better' than any other. This has been going on for a long time, especially with EVE. Consider, if there is only a single person that fills out a Rating for a game and gives it a set of '10's across the board, that game would have a review rating of '10'. Does that make it a great game in the large scope of things? The answer is 'no'. Do you get it now?
The ratings here are not a random sample across the player base and they are not weighted for population. The bottom line is that these statistics are meaningless at best, and misleading at worst.
By the way, I personally think that EVE is the very best game of its type on the market today, and WoW is the very best of its type. But, they should not be compared. And, of course, Guild Wars is not even a MMORPG at all !
Comments
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Why? Christmas. They need a number of months to beta test, then publish it and have in stores by beginning of december.
However I suspect the expansion was originally heavily geared towards raiding. They are now faced with the fact that about 80% of their players would vehemently dislike and be angered by their original intentions for the expansion. So they have been set back some months retooling things.
Further Blizzard has lost an a$$-ton of programmers and designers. All of Blizzard North is gone. The Guild Wars people left a long time ago (one was lead programmer of WoW). Steig Hedlund(Gods and Heroes now) is gone (original Lead design). Red 5 Studios has alot of former guys. Mythic now has at least a few former major guys at Blizzard(Oh the irony is sooooo ironic in so many ways). Oddly most of this massive hemorhagging(except GW guys) started right around when Kaplan was hired. Even more odd he had no qualifications for the job except being in Rob Pardo's EQ guild. Blizzard most likely never recovered from this mass exodus. They lost an incredible amount of talent and given how incestuous the gaming industry is, its probably extremely hard to recover from that. And if the stuff I hinted at is even remotely true, filling positions with comparable talent will be quite hard. Did you know that Tom Chilton aka Kalgan (PvP lead designer) is in fact Evocare from UO? He changed UO pvp to an item based paradigm from what I have read. Sound familiar?
So basically horrible design missteps and serious serious personnel problems = badly delayed expansion.
gestalt11, do you have a site or five that detail the migrations of the leads of MMOGs over time? I'd love to get some more education in my head about where all the braintrust from all the MMOGs has come from and gone to.
The ratings on this site are not accurate... there are fanboyz that will slam a game they aren't playing and artificially elevate the game they currently play...
Overall, I think the list does show accurately what the top games are... as long as you realize it's not a scientific evaluation.
As for WoW... I loved the game. I played it unitl I had maxed out 3 characters and then frankly, I left because I just didn't have the time or patience to organize the 40-man raids that are so big in the end-game.
It's a shame, because I really did enjoy my guild, and the game in general. I don't blame the game for my leaving really, it's my own personal preferences and issues, I guess.
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Vagabond Spirit in search of a home...
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Which FF Character Are You?
I'm not sure that's really the correct emotion. How can someone be jealous of a video game? It's not a person.
I have a soul and a heartbeat. Therefore, WoW should be jealous of me.
gestalt11, do you have a site or five that detail the migrations of the leads of MMOGs over time? I'd love to get some more education in my head about where all the braintrust from all the MMOGs has come from and gone to.
Flagship Studios (founded in 2003 ): David
Brevik, Bill Roper, Erich Schaefer, Max Schaefer, Kenneth Williams,
Dave Glenn, Peter Hu, Phil Shenk, Tyler Thompson, Matt Householder,
Christian Arretche, Jason Felix, Brennan Plunkett, Charlie Lapp and
Marc Tattersall.
Castaway Entertainment:
Michael
Scandizzo, Stefan Scandizzo, Alan Ackerman, Rick Seis, Ted Bisson,
Bruno Bowden, Peter Brevik, Michael Huang, Kelly Johnson (artist),
Michio Okamura, Tom Ricket, and Fredrick Vaught.
Arena.net (founded around 2000):
Mike O'Brien,Patrick Wyatt,Jeff Strain,James Phinney,Eric Flannum, and Tommy Park
Red-5 Studios:
Mark Kern, William Petras, Taewon Yun, Harley D. Huggins II, John Burnett, Daniel Buckler, and Brian Hsu.
Hyboreal Games:
Michio Okamura, Eric Sexton, and Steven Woo .
Gods and Heroes
Steig Hedlund
Mythic
Zexsus, Blizzards Ex lead GM
Not an exhaustive list. You can google most of those companies they have Bios for alot of these guys. Doubt mythic's site mentions Zexsus though.
Flasgship and Castaway are mostly Blizzard North. Blizzard North was shutdown since it lost 90% of its employees. Blizz north was always semi-autonomous(mostly doing Diablo stuff), but many of them still worked on various WC titles as well. So they are still a signigicant loss. Just read Bill Roper's bio to see that.
As for things like Evocare's migration from UO to WoW and reincarnated as Kalgan. That took alot of forum trolling and was mostly by accident and I don't really document these things, although I did confirm that that one is in fact true by googling Evocare and Tom Chilton once I saw it mentioned in a forum by an apalled poster. To be fair Chilton's E3 interview was the only halfway decent Blizzard thing I saw and I really don't know his history at UO, but it is interesting either way. Kaplan's interview made me physically ill, it was like he was talking to a child. Chilton's hit alot of the right marks towards what I think a large portion of the community want. Whether he is a bad or good I have no idea. I gave up on WoW months ago, so its all academic to me.
While your suspicion may tell you WOW is losing players in the US the facts tell a different story. WOW continues to be on the top 5 PC Games Selling List in the US each and every week since it launched. It regularly trades places with the Sims for the #1 spot and occassionally gets dropped to the #3 slot when a hot new title releases but then it is right back to the top. So even if WOW was bleeding US players (which there is no proof or report of other than forum gossip) they are adding thousands of players each week.
Point #1 - I've not seen WoW in a top 5 list in a long time. Not from any of the big box stores that make up the bulk of PC game sales in the U.S. and not from any of the game shop stores like ebgames that most gamers frequent. Does WoW still sell well? Yes, I have no doubt they're still making good money off the box. However, I don't think they're gaining people faster than they're losing them at this point.
Point #2 - Nobody has brought it up here yet, but they will. Blizzard opens new servers. Yes, but there are a few reasons for this. Chiefly blizzard's server suck and always have. They not only have problems with a few players in the same spot but also with too many characters saved in the database on a server. The RP servers are without doubt dying and don't even deserve the designation. You've got a lot of people hopping PvP servers and a lot of PvPers have characters on multiple PvP servers. Furthermore you have a U.S. server to Oceania migration.
Now why do I think WoW is dwindling? Primarily personal observation. I started at launch and have left 3 times and gone back. There are a lot of new faces all the time and people hop, but overall the economy feels smaller, the raiding/teaming pool seems smaller, and places in general all seem less crowded.
Furthermore the most telling is Blizzard themself. They're never shy about advertising a major milestone in population figures whether it is in N. America, Europe, Asia or all combined. When was the last time they specifically bragged about N. America? It has been quite a while, and they haven't changed their practice of bragging about world numbers or asian numbers.
well, by your reasoning, X-MEN 3, and The Da Vinci Code are great movies. in fact, Da Vinci Code must be the best movie ever. just by sales, they are far better than Crash, or Memento, or Pulp Fiction.
Hell, even Godzilla is a better movie than Memento.
is it so hard to admit that the game you like is not the best on the market, just the most popular?
While your suspicion may tell you WOW is losing players in the US the facts tell a different story. WOW continues to be on the top 5 PC Games Selling List in the US each and every week since it launched. It regularly trades places with the Sims for the #1 spot and occassionally gets dropped to the #3 slot when a hot new title releases but then it is right back to the top. So even if WOW was bleeding US players (which there is no proof or report of other than forum gossip) they are adding thousands of players each week.
Yeah this is called "churn".
While your suspicion may tell you WOW is losing players in the US the facts tell a different story. WOW continues to be on the top 5 PC Games Selling List in the US each and every week since it launched. It regularly trades places with the Sims for the #1 spot and occassionally gets dropped to the #3 slot when a hot new title releases but then it is right back to the top. So even if WOW was bleeding US players (which there is no proof or report of other than forum gossip) they are adding thousands of players each week.
has everyone seen the coca-cola/wow commercial? if you're asian you
probably have. it's not in english, nor is it in the U.S. of A.
why don't we have coca-cola/wow or anything/wow commercials in the U.S., but in other countries they do?
oh, it must be because the U.S. playerbase is steadily growing.
a month then going "this is crap" and quitting. it's very obvious that the USA doesn't have */wow commercials because out of those 6.5 million subs, at LEAST 6.2 million of
them are U.S.-based. that's also why we have so many commercials where
mean bosses turn into orcs and get their booties kicked by hot
ninja-wow-babes. hmm, i think i just used those reasons to support and deny why we have advertising cross-overs influenced by wow. but wait, that goes along with what i'm refuting -- doesn't make any sense.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Point #1 - I've not seen WoW in a top 5 list in a long time. Not from any of the big box stores that make up the bulk of PC game sales in the U.S. and not from any of the game shop stores like ebgames that most gamers frequent. Does WoW still sell well? Yes, I have no doubt they're still making good money off the box. However, I don't think they're gaining people faster than they're losing them at this point.
Point #2 - Nobody has brought it up here yet, but they will. Blizzard opens new servers. Yes, but there are a few reasons for this. Chiefly blizzard's server suck and always have. They not only have problems with a few players in the same spot but also with too many characters saved in the database on a server. The RP servers are without doubt dying and don't even deserve the designation. You've got a lot of people hopping PvP servers and a lot of PvPers have characters on multiple PvP servers. Furthermore you have a U.S. server to Oceania migration.
Now why do I think WoW is dwindling? Primarily personal observation. I started at launch and have left 3 times and gone back. There are a lot of new faces all the time and people hop, but overall the economy feels smaller, the raiding/teaming pool seems smaller, and places in general all seem less crowded.
Furthermore the most telling is Blizzard themself. They're never shy about advertising a major milestone in population figures whether it is in N. America, Europe, Asia or all combined. When was the last time they specifically bragged about N. America? It has been quite a while, and they haven't changed their practice of bragging about world numbers or asian numbers.
According to the latest NPD Group sales numbers World of Warcraft was the #2 Best Selling Game in the US (http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=10375). What I am telling you is fact, not suspicion, slanted personal observation, or anti-fanboi dreams but real world facts.
While your suspicion may tell you WOW is losing players in the US the facts tell a different story. WOW continues to be on the top 5 PC Games Selling List in the US each and every week since it launched. It regularly trades places with the Sims for the #1 spot and occassionally gets dropped to the #3 slot when a hot new title releases but then it is right back to the top. So even if WOW was bleeding US players (which there is no proof or report of other than forum gossip) they are adding thousands of players each week.
has everyone seen the coca-cola/wow commercial? if you're asian you
probably have. it's not in english, nor is it in the U.S. of A.
why don't we have coca-cola/wow or anything/wow commercials in the U.S., but in other countries they do?
oh, it must be because the U.S. playerbase is steadily growing.
a month then going "this is crap" and quitting. it's very obvious that the USA doesn't have */wow commercials because out of those 6.5 million subs, at LEAST 6.2 million of
them are U.S.-based. that's also why we have so many commercials where
mean bosses turn into orcs and get their booties kicked by hot
ninja-wow-babes. hmm, i think i just used those reasons to support and deny why we have advertising cross-overs influenced by wow. but wait, that goes along with what i'm refuting -- doesn't make any sense.
I always figured it was because MMO's are nerdy. Also it seems the US only does commercials for console games. Morrowind never had a commercial, but now Oblivion does.
well, by your reasoning, X-MEN 3, and The Da Vinci Code are great movies. in fact, Da Vinci Code must be the best movie ever. just by sales, they are far better than Crash, or Memento, or Pulp Fiction.
Hell, even Godzilla is a better movie than Memento.
is it so hard to admit that the game you like is not the best on the market, just the most popular?
Your analogy doesn't make any sense... WOW has been out for over a year and has been in the top 5 best selling games that entire time. If X-Men 3 is on top of the box office a year from now than your analogy would have merit.
well, by your reasoning, X-MEN 3, and The Da Vinci Code are great movies. in fact, Da Vinci Code must be the best movie ever. just by sales, they are far better than Crash, or Memento, or Pulp Fiction.
Hell, even Godzilla is a better movie than Memento.
is it so hard to admit that the game you like is not the best on the market, just the most popular?
Your analogy doesn't make any sense... WOW has been out for over a year and has been in the top 5 best selling games that entire time. If X-Men 3 is on top of the box office a year from now than your analogy would have merit.
lmao, are you in kaplan/pardo's eq guild? i mean their wow guild?
roflmmfao.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
While your suspicion may tell you WOW is losing players in the US the facts tell a different story. WOW continues to be on the top 5 PC Games Selling List in the US each and every week since it launched. It regularly trades places with the Sims for the #1 spot and occassionally gets dropped to the #3 slot when a hot new title releases but then it is right back to the top. So even if WOW was bleeding US players (which there is no proof or report of other than forum gossip) they are adding thousands of players each week.
has everyone seen the coca-cola/wow commercial? if you're asian you probably have. it's not in english, nor is it in the U.S. of A.
why don't we have coca-cola/wow or anything/wow commercials in the U.S., but in other countries they do?
oh, it must be because the U.S. playerbase is steadily growing.
When you saw that commerical, what was the first thing that came to your mind? exactly, "WTF!?"
In asia, things like that are very normal. its a diffrent culture, it has nothing to do with sale records.
I can't speak for the USA, but here in europe, WoW is still in every top 5 sell list, the price of the box never dropped once, and its the only game that has game time cards in every store that sell games.
While your suspicion may tell you WOW is losing players in the US the facts tell a different story. WOW continues to be on the top 5 PC Games Selling List in the US each and every week since it launched. It regularly trades places with the Sims for the #1 spot and occassionally gets dropped to the #3 slot when a hot new title releases but then it is right back to the top. So even if WOW was bleeding US players (which there is no proof or report of other than forum gossip) they are adding thousands of players each week.
has everyone seen the coca-cola/wow commercial? if you're asian you probably have. it's not in english, nor is it in the U.S. of A.
why don't we have coca-cola/wow or anything/wow commercials in the U.S., but in other countries they do?
oh, it must be because the U.S. playerbase is steadily growing.
Has the US ever had a MMO on a Coke can? No, but if you are asian you have seen Lineage 1 and 2 on a Coke can. No one said WOW had 6.2 million US Subs, but I will say WOW has more US Subs than any other MMO on the market.
There sure are a lot of WOW haters on this board, fortunately for Blizzard/Vivendi the haters pale in comparison to the fans as they laugh all the way to the bank and will set even new US sub records once their expansion pack is released!
6.5 million subs right?
how many are from retail release?
what are the demographics and account lengths? i.e. 4.5 million u.s. based, 2 million asian based, etc. how long have those accounts been around? 4.5 million in the u.s. of which 100,000 are since the first month of retail, 500,000 are 16+ months old, 500,000 are 12-15 months old, 9-11 months, 6-8 months, 4-5 months, 1-3 months and less than one month.
i mean, it's the hottest selling box out there right? how many boxes have sold? i'm betting the number is a lot higher than 6.5 million. but keep telling me it's the hottest seller and that it ONLY has 6.5 million subs, you're building the case for "this game sucks" more than i ever could.
numbers, throw them out there, cuz everything you guys are saying is pointing to "we can't keep subs, people hate this game" and that you guys are cheering on a sinking ship in the hopes that good propaganda will undo the damage done by kaplan's mouth.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
but hey, they're not losing any subs, no, none at all, they're growing exponentially, as the numbers from the fanbois in this thread will soon show.. right?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
You sir, are a Tool. If all, I repeat all, of the subscribers to the games listed on this site as 'more popular' than WoW were added together, they would represent but a fraction of the subscriber base of WoW.
WoW > EVE + GW + CoV + EQ2 + DAoC + CoH and probably a bunch more added in.
Just because the FanBoiz of the 'Higher Rated Games' flock to this site and post '10's across the board for thier game does not mean their game is 'better' than any other. This has been going on for a long time, especially with EVE. Consider, if there is only a single person that fills out a Rating for a game and gives it a set of '10's across the board, that game would have a review rating of '10'. Does that make it a great game in the large scope of things? The answer is 'no'. Do you get it now?
The ratings here are not a random sample across the player base and they are not weighted for population. The bottom line is that these statistics are meaningless at best, and misleading at worst.
By the way, I personally think that EVE is the very best game of its type on the market today, and WoW is the very best of its type. But, they should not be compared. And, of course, Guild Wars is not even a MMORPG at all !