Well, why would you expect an older game to have more advanced and varied AI? That's my confusion.
Exactly. Why does an MMO from 2002 have the same exact AI most themepark MMOs have in 2018? Why hasn't any MMO evolved past "AI" standing around loot pinatas?
Tabula Rasa and Ryzom both show(ed) that there can be more to MMO AI than loot pinatas waiting to be popped open.
Ask yourself, how well did either of those games do financially?
Now you have your answer as to why more advanced AI wasn't developed over the years.
all that proves is that AI isn't everything. You can have a bad game with good AI. You can have a good game with bad ai. What we want is a good game with good AI. Tabula rasa wasn't a good game, having good AI doesn't change that.
Most superhero movies were horrible and really didn't make much money so why did Marvel continue making movies? According to your logic Spider-Man should have never been made. The original tablets were failures so why do tablets exist now?
Err, check your box office history, the huge financial success of Superman movies in the 70s and 80s followed by Batman movies in the 80s and 90s is what drove Marvel to continue trying until they got it right.
After checking the box office history the first Batman movie came out in 1966 and barely exceeded its cost. Looks like Batman preceded Superman as far as movies go.
Nothing like basing an argument by overlooking the obvious. While the 1966 movie was one of the first, (if we discount Zorro) being it was based on the campy 1966 TV show which the Lego Batman movie hilariously references) most consider the 1978 Superman the movie which really started it all.
Adjusted for ticket price inflation the first three Superman (DC) movies (1978-83) made almost a billion dollars.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well honestly...I didn't get very far into FFXI. I thought it was going to be a group focused game with final fantasy style questing. Which is what I was hoping for, since every themepark is so solo focused and I don't like sandbox MMOs since 99% of them are pvp forced. The only MMO that comes close is FFXIV, that one is pretty much best out for a themepark group focused MMO.
But for FFXI. Instead I could solo just as easy as any other MMO and its just grinding which didn't feel very final fantasy like to me. I remember final fantasy games being about story and lore...and this one was just grinding one single area and it was pretty boring.
I know there are some MMOs in development (like pantheon) that are more themepark AND group based...but outside of FFXIV with released MMOs, can't think of much else of group based PvE MMOs.
Instead, FFXI honestly felt like playing WoW to me. Everything was easy to kill. There was an obvious layout of when to progress to better mobs, and mobs stood around like dummies. Maybe I needed to give it more time...but to me, and I'm sure FFXI has its fans...but my own opinion is I'd rather play something else.
Maybe they changed at one point in time...maybe FFXI really was a good group based MMO. I did read after I quit+uninstalled that it is a lot different than it used to be, and can solo 99% of the game with npc companions. So maybe early on it was a good group based PvE MMO. But how it is now...I honestly felt like I might as well just play WoW.
It felt really similar to any other themepark MMO, except FFXI has little questing in it, a ton less content than WoW/LOTRO/FFXIV/GW2/ESO and just boring grinding. And the mobs behave just like every other mobs do...stand around, wait to be killed like they are a pinata and die super easily.
Guess can't expect too much from a 2002 MMO (but I also play Asheron's Call and that is from 1999 and that is an amazing experience compared to what I got out of FFXI despite being quite a bit older)...but I really thought I was going to get a good classic FF experience with grouping. That isn't what I got out of it. Just a boring contentless grind game without any of the awesome final fantasy quests or anything else from their singleplayer FF games or even FFXIV (granted FFXIV is obviously newer)...not even a good group experience.
Maybe I should have read peoples posts (which I tend to avoid cause its mostly trolls, liars and haters...like go to any game forum and ask if its any good and a bunch of people all say it sucks and how bad it is lol)...but at least I'd have known they pretty much removed grouping in the game and replaced it with NPC companions.
Anyway I was pretty disappointed.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
and yeah in case don't see it in there. I know this is from 2002...but I really expected a much better group experience with harder mobs that require grouping. Not hire npcs to do stuff in replace of players, and I kinda expected quests too like how every final fantasy game is a big quest experience even the older ones.
But as of now...I pretty much play vanilla WoW (decent grouping), a tiny bit of BFA (terrible grouping) and asheron's call on the pve server. And AC is from 1999 (so its older than FFXI) and still emphasizes people to group and socialize...many mobs and quests in AC need an actual group to defeat. There isn't hiring npcs to do it for you. And even easy mobs you get bonus exp for grouping with people.
That is kinda what I expected out of FFXI is something group focused like Asheron's Call and other older MMOs. What I got was a 2002 WoW style game before WoW even existed. Easy mobs, and not much to do compared to even AC which is older. But like I said, I know it changed at one point...but I dunno when the change happened.
Also I forgot, but I do play Everquest 1 project server (but not too often). Thats a great group experience MMO though. And its much much harder than I found FFXI to be.
But to end. I'm sure someone will say "but you need to give it more time! it gets a lot harder later", but from the time I spent...I didn't want to waste time getting there on the gambling chance that it does or does not. Especially when so much of the game can be soloed with npcs and barely anyone groups except for really endgame content that would take me so many months to get to.
The game just was too easy with WoW level dumb mob AI. It really honestly felt like WoW to me, except FFXI is super old and much older than WoW.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
I'm giving FFXI another try. I actually did have a lot of fun, but I never really past beginning stuff so I should give the trial a good chance. I do like older MMOs like UO, Asheron's Call, SWG etc.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
Comparing FFXI to Wow because you found some mobs that are standing around?
You kill mobs in ffxi to advance the experience of your character,which ....makes sense.You use your various weapon skills or magic skills or defensive skills,there are several skills and you improve them by use.
In Wow you get xp by clicking npc's with a marker over their head,which makes NO sense.So you go do whatever the npc asks,maybe as simple as just walking over there or bringing an item to another npc and somehow Blizzard feels your character should become auto more experienced for that....umm yeah ok.
There is ZERO hand holding in FFXI,Wow is all hand holding...no comparison.You do not need to enter a dungeon in FFXI to find VERY tough mobs,with far better AI script than anything i witnessed in Wow.The combat is deeper,the characters are deeper and there is even hidden crafts and a lot of knowledge to gather within FFXI,like a LOT.
You should also remember that FFXI is NOT the same game it was,it has changed a LOT.A lot of QOL has been added to FFXI,a boat ton of it ,including TRUSTS/Ciphers which are game npc's you can befriend to join you in a group.It is endless,there is a LOT of game within FFXi,so much so it is overwhelming even to me albeit i been out of the servers for about 6-8 years now.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
However i do understand the PREMISE of your post,you are correct,modern mmorpg's have NOT advanced the genre,matter of fact it has become MUCH worse,more shallow.
We went from table top to muds to EQ,all the whiel we saw a lot of improvements.Then at least imo FFXI improved on EQ by a LOT,pretty much in every area of design.
I also do NOT agree that Wow looks better than FFXI,the textures are hit n miss just like in WOW,matter of fact early Wow textures were down right nasty at times,like tree textures and rock textures looked like some little kid made them. IMO everything in FFXI looks fine except of course the models are very low end but how many mmorpg's have high end models up until 2010...none?Texture wise,the armor all looks perfectly fine in FFXI.
EQ2 was the first game i noticed to do a good job with lighting and shaders and it was in direct competition with Wow but imo topped Wow for looks.The big difference between those two was EQ2 a better game,looked better but Wow was far more polished as Eq2 was full of bugs.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
By that logic, you can include Everquest in '99, UO in '97...
It's not about developers not wanting better AI, it's about the limits of technology and internet connection speeds.
Games with advanced AI are not massively multiplayer for a reason kiddo!
and people wonder why the MMO genre is so stagnant and getting worse
This is it
What are you babbling about? If you want a better combat experience, PvP. There's only so much you can do with current technology. South Korean companies can get away with doing a lot since their country is small and everyone has access to low latency, giga-bandwidth internet. This varies globally once you're outside of that region of the world, where some people can only get access to satellite internet and others are still stuck on old copper wires. This is why most South Korean developed games flop outside of their country. As a developer, you need to look at the reality before creating a game, or you're stuck with a niche title for a niche market.
You want a shooter? Go play Battle Royale, FPS, etc., they have MMO versions. You want Dark Souls? It and the myriad of clones already exist. The list is long, the games are in the thousands, so you're wasting your typing on this subject and there are better hills to die on than this.
By that logic, you can include Everquest in '99, UO in '97...
It's not about developers not wanting better AI, it's about the limits of technology and internet connection speeds.
Games with advanced AI are not massively multiplayer for a reason kiddo!
and people wonder why the MMO genre is so stagnant and getting worse
This is it
What are you babbling about? If you want a better combat experience, PvP. There's only so much you can do with current technology. South Korean companies can get away with doing a lot since their country is small and everyone has access to low latency, giga-bandwidth internet. This varies globally once you're outside of that region of the world, where some people can only get access to satellite internet and others are still stuck on old copper wires. This is why most South Korean developed games flop outside of their country. As a developer, you need to look at the reality before creating a game, or you're stuck with a niche title for a niche market.
You want a shooter? Go play Battle Royale, FPS, etc., they have MMO versions. You want Dark Souls? It and the myriad of clones already exist. The list is long, the games are in the thousands, so you're wasting your typing on this subject and there are better hills to die on than this.
The post you're responding to was made 4.5 years ago....
Comments
Adjusted for ticket price inflation the first three Superman (DC) movies (1978-83) made almost a billion dollars.
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/franchises/chart/?id=superman.htm
Batman, also a DC franchise in the next decade made almost $1.5B when adjusted for ticket price inflation. (1989-97)
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/franchises/chart/?id=batman.htm
Small wonder despite underperforming for years Marvel kept at it until finally starting to see some success in 2008 and then hitting the jackpot.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But for FFXI. Instead I could solo just as easy as any other MMO and its just grinding which didn't feel very final fantasy like to me. I remember final fantasy games being about story and lore...and this one was just grinding one single area and it was pretty boring.
I know there are some MMOs in development (like pantheon) that are more themepark AND group based...but outside of FFXIV with released MMOs, can't think of much else of group based PvE MMOs.
Instead, FFXI honestly felt like playing WoW to me. Everything was easy to kill. There was an obvious layout of when to progress to better mobs, and mobs stood around like dummies. Maybe I needed to give it more time...but to me, and I'm sure FFXI has its fans...but my own opinion is I'd rather play something else.
Maybe they changed at one point in time...maybe FFXI really was a good group based MMO. I did read after I quit+uninstalled that it is a lot different than it used to be, and can solo 99% of the game with npc companions. So maybe early on it was a good group based PvE MMO. But how it is now...I honestly felt like I might as well just play WoW.
It felt really similar to any other themepark MMO, except FFXI has little questing in it, a ton less content than WoW/LOTRO/FFXIV/GW2/ESO and just boring grinding. And the mobs behave just like every other mobs do...stand around, wait to be killed like they are a pinata and die super easily.
Guess can't expect too much from a 2002 MMO (but I also play Asheron's Call and that is from 1999 and that is an amazing experience compared to what I got out of FFXI despite being quite a bit older)...but I really thought I was going to get a good classic FF experience with grouping. That isn't what I got out of it. Just a boring contentless grind game without any of the awesome final fantasy quests or anything else from their singleplayer FF games or even FFXIV (granted FFXIV is obviously newer)...not even a good group experience.
Maybe I should have read peoples posts (which I tend to avoid cause its mostly trolls, liars and haters...like go to any game forum and ask if its any good and a bunch of people all say it sucks and how bad it is lol)...but at least I'd have known they pretty much removed grouping in the game and replaced it with NPC companions.
Anyway I was pretty disappointed.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
But as of now...I pretty much play vanilla WoW (decent grouping), a tiny bit of BFA (terrible grouping) and asheron's call on the pve server. And AC is from 1999 (so its older than FFXI) and still emphasizes people to group and socialize...many mobs and quests in AC need an actual group to defeat. There isn't hiring npcs to do it for you. And even easy mobs you get bonus exp for grouping with people.
That is kinda what I expected out of FFXI is something group focused like Asheron's Call and other older MMOs. What I got was a 2002 WoW style game before WoW even existed. Easy mobs, and not much to do compared to even AC which is older. But like I said, I know it changed at one point...but I dunno when the change happened.
Also I forgot, but I do play Everquest 1 project server (but not too often). Thats a great group experience MMO though. And its much much harder than I found FFXI to be.
But to end. I'm sure someone will say "but you need to give it more time! it gets a lot harder later", but from the time I spent...I didn't want to waste time getting there on the gambling chance that it does or does not. Especially when so much of the game can be soloed with npcs and barely anyone groups except for really endgame content that would take me so many months to get to.
The game just was too easy with WoW level dumb mob AI. It really honestly felt like WoW to me, except FFXI is super old and much older than WoW.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
You kill mobs in ffxi to advance the experience of your character,which ....makes sense.You use your various weapon skills or magic skills or defensive skills,there are several skills and you improve them by use.
In Wow you get xp by clicking npc's with a marker over their head,which makes NO sense.So you go do whatever the npc asks,maybe as simple as just walking over there or bringing an item to another npc and somehow Blizzard feels your character should become auto more experienced for that....umm yeah ok.
There is ZERO hand holding in FFXI,Wow is all hand holding...no comparison.You do not need to enter a dungeon in FFXI to find VERY tough mobs,with far better AI script than anything i witnessed in Wow.The combat is deeper,the characters are deeper and there is even hidden crafts and a lot of knowledge to gather within FFXI,like a LOT.
You should also remember that FFXI is NOT the same game it was,it has changed a LOT.A lot of QOL has been added to FFXI,a boat ton of it ,including TRUSTS/Ciphers which are game npc's you can befriend to join you in a group.It is endless,there is a LOT of game within FFXi,so much so it is overwhelming even to me albeit i been out of the servers for about 6-8 years now.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
We went from table top to muds to EQ,all the whiel we saw a lot of improvements.Then at least imo FFXI improved on EQ by a LOT,pretty much in every area of design.
I also do NOT agree that Wow looks better than FFXI,the textures are hit n miss just like in WOW,matter of fact early Wow textures were down right nasty at times,like tree textures and rock textures looked like some little kid made them.
IMO everything in FFXI looks fine except of course the models are very low end but how many mmorpg's have high end models up until 2010...none?Texture wise,the armor all looks perfectly fine in FFXI.
EQ2 was the first game i noticed to do a good job with lighting and shaders and it was in direct competition with Wow but imo topped Wow for looks.The big difference between those two was EQ2 a better game,looked better but Wow was far more polished as Eq2 was full of bugs.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
PvE every possible PvE monster script has been written.
Genre stagnates for 20 years.
You want a shooter? Go play Battle Royale, FPS, etc., they have MMO versions. You want Dark Souls? It and the myriad of clones already exist. The list is long, the games are in the thousands, so you're wasting your typing on this subject and there are better hills to die on than this.
The post you're responding to was made 4.5 years ago....