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Are Gear Treadmills the Best We Can Do for End Game? | One Good Roll | MMORPG.com

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  • UwakionnaUwakionna Member RarePosts: 1,139
    Quizzical said:
    Uwakionna said:
    It's a little jarring to see "rotations" and "strategy" put in the same sentence.
    So you decided to make a sentence with both words to demonstrate?
    Response to the statement made by tenz_an. Not entirely certain how the context is missed with it being right under the related post.
  • tenz_antenz_an Newbie CommonPosts: 20
    Uwakionna said:
    It's a little jarring to see "rotations" and "strategy" put in the same sentence.
    Well with strategy I was thinking more about effects like slowing the mobs, but yeah there can be a strategy when you decide which sequence of abilities you decide to use, and call it a rotation. Now if for you a rotation is just the one that tops the dps maybe that's why it sounded weird for you. I thought you could call rotation any sequence of abilities, planned to do any effect, not only the ones topping the dps. 
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 23,984
    Come on guys we can have a laugh, sometimes the threads are way too serious. :)
  • UwakionnaUwakionna Member RarePosts: 1,139
    tenz_an said:
    Uwakionna said:
    It's a little jarring to see "rotations" and "strategy" put in the same sentence.
    Well with strategy I was thinking more about effects like slowing the mobs, but yeah there can be a strategy when you decide which sequence of abilities you decide to use, and call it a rotation. Now if for you a rotation is just the one that tops the dps maybe that's why it sounded weird for you. I thought you could call rotation any sequence of abilities, planned to do any effect, not only the ones topping the dps. 
    You're not describing something absent from other games, and that's a goal of most players and MMOs, even classic WoW. Rotations are also very static in their nature as far as sequence goes. Hence being a known rotation. That hardly lends to depth in strategy.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Uwakionna said:
    tenz_an said:
    Uwakionna said:
    It's a little jarring to see "rotations" and "strategy" put in the same sentence.
    Well with strategy I was thinking more about effects like slowing the mobs, but yeah there can be a strategy when you decide which sequence of abilities you decide to use, and call it a rotation. Now if for you a rotation is just the one that tops the dps maybe that's why it sounded weird for you. I thought you could call rotation any sequence of abilities, planned to do any effect, not only the ones topping the dps. 
    You're not describing something absent from other games, and that's a goal of most players and MMOs, even classic WoW. Rotations are also very static in their nature as far as sequence goes. Hence being a known rotation. That hardly lends to depth in strategy.
    To be fair, deciding on what skills to use for your rotation if the potential pool of skills is large enough and some skills are not obviously the best in all situations, is strategic even if the execution of the rotation you decide to use itself is just brainless twitch.

    You can even take it a step further in games that have a variety of mobs that need to be fought differently. Modifying a rotation to suit the type of mob you're fighting can also be thought of as strategic.

    So yeah rotation and strategy can appear in the same sentence just fine.
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  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,193
    Scot said:
    Come on guys we can have a laugh, sometimes the threads are way too serious. :)
    NO, I NEED ANSWERS!
    KyleranScot



  • UwakionnaUwakionna Member RarePosts: 1,139
    edited December 2022
    Iselin said:
    Uwakionna said:
    tenz_an said:
    Uwakionna said:
    It's a little jarring to see "rotations" and "strategy" put in the same sentence.
    Well with strategy I was thinking more about effects like slowing the mobs, but yeah there can be a strategy when you decide which sequence of abilities you decide to use, and call it a rotation. Now if for you a rotation is just the one that tops the dps maybe that's why it sounded weird for you. I thought you could call rotation any sequence of abilities, planned to do any effect, not only the ones topping the dps. 
    You're not describing something absent from other games, and that's a goal of most players and MMOs, even classic WoW. Rotations are also very static in their nature as far as sequence goes. Hence being a known rotation. That hardly lends to depth in strategy.
    To be fair, deciding on what skills to use for your rotation if the potential pool of skills is large enough and some skills are not obviously the best in all situations, is strategic even if the execution of the rotation you decide to use itself is just brainless twitch.

    You can even take it a step further in games that have a variety of mobs that need to be fought differently. Modifying a rotation to suit the type of mob you're fighting can also be thought of as strategic.

    So yeah rotation and strategy can appear in the same sentence just fine.
    In so far as it can appear in an action game with a comparatively limited number of skills with clear functionality you can use to handle a given scenario, sure. How many versions of a damage or slow or stun does one need?

    Variety in skill is double-edged as an argument. On one end the concept of variety in choice is there, but on the other end, it's needless redundancy and skill bloat.

    Pinning the notion of this variety to having variety in mobs is also kind of a "not describing something absent from other games" too. It's an argument in theory, but where in execution can you objectively say that? WoW loves copy-pasting the same mob behaviors under new skins, as does plenty of MMOs.

    What's the depth being or strategy argued for there? What's the difference in depth or strategy being argued for there?
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Uwakionna said:

    What's the depth being or strategy argued for there? What's the difference in depth or strategy being argued for there?
    As a thread or your side trip into strategy and rotations?

    The article and thread are about continued player advancement at the end game through gear chasing and if that's the best we can do.

    How does your nitpicking about strategy and rotations relate to that exactly?
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • UwakionnaUwakionna Member RarePosts: 1,139
    edited December 2022
    Iselin said:
    Uwakionna said:

    What's the depth being or strategy argued for there? What's the difference in depth or strategy being argued for there?
    As a thread or your side trip into strategy and rotations?

    The article and thread are about continued player advancement at the end game through gear chasing and if that's the best we can do.

    How does your nitpicking about strategy and rotations relate to that exactly?
    Ask tenz_an that question. They made several paragraphs on that subject last page to which I made a one-sentence response.

    And it's my one sentence response that you guys are latching on to, instead of the originating statement.

    Does context just fly out the window around here?
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,440
    tenz_an said:
    tenz_an said:
    Kratier said:
    not one mention of elder scrolls online, hrm i wonder why. no boring token and cookie cutter gearsets, no pointless ilvl farm crap. just focus on story and exploration :D

    its the best mmo
    My main issue was that the combat felt very boring. I sometimes log in for exploration but I feel like if I'm doing that, I can play Skyrim and get a better experience. 

    I like ESO, don't get me wrong. But I do feel that it gets stale pretty fast. [...]
    Same, I loved ESO for graphics (modded) and the mods, and the story, but even the mods were not able to fix the terrible combat system. Combat is totally crap compared to games like BDO or Blade&Soul or even Bless Unleashed. Maybe I feel that cause I'm a caster/ranger, maybe a melee lover would enjoy ESO more... I don't know. 
    On the other hand BDO have terrible mobs, just idiot mobs that you one-shot in packs, so all the fancy spells and abilities just goes into using one or 2 combo... [...]

    Melee combat is a bit more involving as you must deal with close combat all the time while ranged characters can often better avoid that when grouped.

    I'm happy enough with that provided by varied attack strength, blocking, interrupting, and dodging. To me that's active and detailed enough for a MMORPG.

    It's no BDO or Blade & Soul, but if I wanted that I'd be playing them, or bypassing them entirely for something even more action focused.
    For me Wow had the best combat gameplay, as ranger/caster. I miss the spells that slow down/stun/control the mobs so you can kill them before they reach you, it's a very simple mechanic but it's satisfying and i don't understand why it's not present in many rpgs. Or the traps of hunter, or the spell that buff another spell if subsequent so you can create a rotation, i loved elem shaman rotation in BFA for this. So NO definetly "varied attack strength, blocking, interrupting, and dodging" is NOT ENOUGH for me, and not only because they are few, but also because they are very ARCADE, in the sense that the main thing is timing them, not what they do, I like strategy, before RPG I was playing RTS, that's why I can't play soul games, I tried Elden Ring because the stunning graphics, but the combat is just ARCADE, not much of planning your rotations, knowing your class, timing your abilities: these things I like in the gameplay. Saddest thing is seeing games with great graphics and scenery like tower of fantasy... where you can use like 4 different attacks? Are those MMORPG for dummies or what? and there are tons coming out. While the few games with some 20/30 abilities have 2010 graphics like wow and gw2. So sad about it. Is it so hard to add some old style combat? they could even release a game that you can play in different styles, 4 abilities class and 30 abilities class, why not doing that? speaking about pve only. PvP I'm not a big fun, cause in most mmo is a joke, even if in wow classic I enjoyed it, finally.

    I covered the basics of ESO combat work in what you are referring to. In comparison, the basics of WoW combat is auto-attack. A comparison on a broader scale requires that both games be considered so.

    ESO has slows, stuns, roots, knockdowns and such. It has abilities that affect those subsequently used. There are rotations for maximizing damage. There are abilities that provide bonuses that only by others so are more effective in group play. The game has more to it than you appear to be aware of.

    It seems you're not familiar with many aspects of the game.

    Tower of Fantasy is action game, but it too has more depth than you give it credit for. Characters have concurrent access to three weapons that they can swap between, with doing so causing different interactions depending on what you are swapping from and to.

    Perhaps you should assume less and learn more about what you speak so that your impressions can be based on a more solid foundation.
  • tenz_antenz_an Newbie CommonPosts: 20

    I covered the basics of ESO combat work in what you are referring to. In comparison, the basics of WoW combat is auto-attack. A comparison on a broader scale requires that both games be considered so.

    ESO has slows, stuns, roots, knockdowns and such. It has abilities that affect those subsequently used. There are rotations for maximizing damage. There are abilities that provide bonuses that only by others so are more effective in group play. The game has more to it than you appear to be aware of.

    It seems you're not familiar with many aspects of the game.

    Tower of Fantasy is action game, but it too has more depth than you give it credit for. Characters have concurrent access to three weapons that they can swap between, with doing so causing different interactions depending on what you are swapping from and to.

    Perhaps you should assume less and learn more about what you speak so that your impressions can be based on a more solid foundation.
    I don't assume to be right, I just bring my opinion and I'm very ready to get corrected. Thanks for the explanation about ESO, yes maybe I didn't go too deep in its gameplay, it was hard to switch spells and abilities, I found very uncorfortable to have to assign them to each hand everytime i wanted to change them. I don't see why it was not possible to have keybinds like in wow or GW2, if not the cool combinations of keys that BDO has... But I guess someone like that kind of mess. I don't know.
    But for Tower of Fantasy please, even if you have 3 styles of weapons, it's just 3, the melee ones, the staff and the bow, come on, you want to compare that to the abilities of Wow or GW2? Or Bless Unleashed?
    Anyway I really hope one can write opinions without solid fondations or degrees on videogames here, or I will feel to be forced to leave the comments. Is it a sort of Academy or University of videogames here? I don't get why I earned such an unfriendly answer...
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,873
    tenz_an said:

    I covered the basics of ESO combat work in what you are referring to. In comparison, the basics of WoW combat is auto-attack. A comparison on a broader scale requires that both games be considered so.

    ESO has slows, stuns, roots, knockdowns and such. It has abilities that affect those subsequently used. There are rotations for maximizing damage. There are abilities that provide bonuses that only by others so are more effective in group play. The game has more to it than you appear to be aware of.

    It seems you're not familiar with many aspects of the game.

    Tower of Fantasy is action game, but it too has more depth than you give it credit for. Characters have concurrent access to three weapons that they can swap between, with doing so causing different interactions depending on what you are swapping from and to.

    Perhaps you should assume less and learn more about what you speak so that your impressions can be based on a more solid foundation.
    I don't assume to be right, I just bring my opinion and I'm very ready to get corrected. Thanks for the explanation about ESO, yes maybe I didn't go too deep in its gameplay, it was hard to switch spells and abilities, I found very uncorfortable to have to assign them to each hand everytime i wanted to change them. I don't see why it was not possible to have keybinds like in wow or GW2, if not the cool combinations of keys that BDO has... But I guess someone like that kind of mess. I don't know.
    But for Tower of Fantasy please, even if you have 3 styles of weapons, it's just 3, the melee ones, the staff and the bow, come on, you want to compare that to the abilities of Wow or GW2? Or Bless Unleashed?
    Anyway I really hope one can write opinions without solid fondations or degrees on videogames here, or I will feel to be forced to leave the comments. Is it a sort of Academy or University of videogames here? I don't get why I earned such an unfriendly answer...
    Pro-tip, never take it personal what some rando on the Internet thinks of you or your opinions. 

    This site needs more reasonable posters like yourself so please don't let the occasional aggressive or hostile response keep you from sharing your opinions as some here will always value them, even if they don't always agree.

    Some days we all wake up on the wrong side of bed and respond in unnecessarily harsh or hostile manner, even me, (especially me?), if so, better to just move on and engage another day.

    Cheers, and keep coming back!


    Mendel

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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  • UwakionnaUwakionna Member RarePosts: 1,139
    Did you not say "Are those MMORPG for dummies or what?" In relation to the games you expressed your opinion about?

    If you go in swinging with your opinions, you should probably expect someone to swing back. When there's objective points that are wrong as well, then it's not just an opinion butting heads. Like do you honestly thing games like elden ring do not require timing or knowledge of different skills and techniques? Or when making an assessment on the capability of a game, perhaps an awareness of the mechanics actually in the game.

    That's not having a degree, it's just not making assumptions to fit opinions. 
  • eoloeeoloe Member RarePosts: 864
    Quizzical said:
    Uwakionna said:
    It's a little jarring to see "rotations" and "strategy" put in the same sentence.
    So you decided to make a sentence with both words to demonstrate?

    I love the spirit, but it does not invalidate the statement:

    Rotation and strategy are really antithetic.


  • tenz_antenz_an Newbie CommonPosts: 20
    edited December 2022
    Uwakionna said:
    Did you not say "Are those MMORPG for dummies or what?" In relation to the games you expressed your opinion about?

    If you go in swinging with your opinions, you should probably expect someone to swing back. When there's objective points that are wrong as well, then it's not just an opinion butting heads. Like do you honestly thing games like elden ring do not require timing or knowledge of different skills and techniques? Or when making an assessment on the capability of a game, perhaps an awareness of the mechanics actually in the game.

    That's not having a degree, it's just not making assumptions to fit opinions. 
    Ye It was about games for dummies with also a "?" so I was asking if someone else agree o disagree, because I know i might be wrong, I was not saying someone here is dummy. Well with Elden Ring like ESO I think my "problem" is with the UI or better say keybindings problem, how you have to scroll for spells to change them, so it is very different from WoW or BDO styles, which I prefer. 
    Dummies was referring to Tower of Fantasy anyway... I didn't try Genshin, but I guess it's not better. Maybe someone likes those combination of 3 clicks or 5 clicks, there is something like that in Bless Unleashed too, but there is also a bit more, and I can appreciate it more.
    Anyway, ye, I'm no total snowflake, so I won't leave so easily  :D
  • UwakionnaUwakionna Member RarePosts: 1,139
    You built a statement around assumptions of systems you didn't even know, and seem to admit you knew you may not know.

    Sounds like you should have been asking about what mechanics were actually present if you were conscious of this. Not asking if games were made for dummies based on your own missing knowledge.
  • tenz_antenz_an Newbie CommonPosts: 20
    edited December 2022
    Uwakionna said:
    You built a statement around assumptions of systems you didn't even know, and seem to admit you knew you may not know.

    Sounds like you should have been asking about what mechanics were actually present if you were conscious of this. Not asking if games were made for dummies based on your own missing knowledge.
    no, mechanics I may have not considered were about ESO, and ESO only.

    RPG for dummies for referred to only Tower of Fantasy and similar (and with similar I meant Genshin) and I still think Tower of Fantasy seems very much RPG for dummies, you want to put it in politically correct way? They seems too much simple, better? I even wrote in the general chat of the game to ask if that's all about abilities noone were shocked or offended and people online were agree there was not much to expect from a "mobile game", so it is considered a mobile game, so I assume it is normal for mobile to be simplified... too bad they have better graphics than most "serious" or "deep" PC MMORPG, and that is the thing that annoys me. I guess companies can monetize mobile games more, so they put more effort in new games and graphics in mobile than they do with classic MMORPG for PC like wow or gw2, just a guess.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 23,984
    edited December 2022
    tenz_an said:
    Uwakionna said:
    You built a statement around assumptions of systems you didn't even know, and seem to admit you knew you may not know.

    Sounds like you should have been asking about what mechanics were actually present if you were conscious of this. Not asking if games were made for dummies based on your own missing knowledge.
    no, mechanics I may have not considered were about ESO, and ESO only.

    RPG for dummies for referred to only Tower of Fantasy and similar (and with similar I meant Genshin) and I still think Tower of Fantasy seems very much RPG for dummies, you want to put it in politically correct way? They seems too much simple, better? I even wrote in the general chat of the game to ask if that's all about abilities noone were shocked or offended and people online were agree there was not much to expect from a "mobile game", so it is considered a mobile game, so I assume it is normal for mobile to be simplified... too bad they have better graphics than most "serious" or "deep" PC MMORPG, and that is the thing that annoys me. I guess companies can monetize mobile games more, so they put more effort in new games and graphics in mobile than they do with classic MMORPG for PC like wow or gw2, just a guess.
    Mobile is an inferior platform; the power, the screen size and user interface just do not cut it against other platforms. A lot of money is being poured into the mobile genre but only rarely into any specific mobile MMORPG. If you think a MMO mobile game has better graphics I can only suggest date of release, games made years ago do look somewhat dated.
    Kyleran
  • tenz_antenz_an Newbie CommonPosts: 20
    edited December 2022
    ye, just i notice so many more mobile releases than AAA pc releases, and i find it sad. Even if I am quite happy with Bless Unleashed lately (even if I didn't understand what's going on with Bless Global and if it will mean Unleashed end...).

    To go back to the topyc I was thinking... a good idea for end game, couldn't be content created by players? if it is so expensive to release new regions, dungeons, raids by the devs why not let the players do it, like it happened in Warcraft 2 maps. Of course players should enjoy doing them for fun, and not for drops or gear. Isn't it already happening in ESO with some mods? (with ESO i mean and meant Skyrim, so that maybe what made some confusion.. I played only some Skyrim, and got used to call it ESO) if you could apply that even to other activity of a game, like Bartering and sea content of Black Desert for example, I think players would enjoy a lot.
    Still like I wrote before, best model and more sure of success is wow, with its periodic expansions. Only a wow2 can beat wow, too bad it's too long I'm waiting for it...

    theGnade said:
    If one plays MMORPG for story, it would make more sense then to play singleplayer games

    Ye I always look for good singleplayer games because I like story and quests but sadly most singleplayer games are melee or gunners which I don't like, there are too few exception where there are casters or archers. So I feel forced to play MMORPG because they have more class choices.
    Post edited by tenz_an on
    Scot
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 23,984
    edited December 2022
    tenz_an said:
    ye, just i notice so many more mobile releases than AAA pc releases, and i find it sad. Even if I am quite happy with Bless Unleashed lately (even if I didn't understand what's going on with Bless Global and if it will mean Unleashed end...).

    To go back to the topyc I was thinking... a good idea for end game, couldn't be content created by players? if it is so expensive to release new regions, dungeons, raids by the devs why not let the players do it, like it happened in Warcraft 2 maps. Of course players should enjoy doing them for fun, and not for drops or gear. Isn't it already happening in ESO with some mods? (with ESO i mean and meant Skyrim, so that maybe what made some confusion.. I played only some Skyrim, and got used to call it ESO) if you could apply that even to other activity of a game, like Bartering and sea content of Black Desert for example, I think players would enjoy a lot.
    Still like I wrote before, best model and more sure of success is wow, with its periodic expansions. Only a wow2 can beat wow, too bad it's too long I'm waiting for it...

    theGnade said:
    If one plays MMORPG for story, it would make more sense then to play singleplayer games

    Ye I always look for good singleplayer games because I like story and quests but sadly most singleplayer games are melee or gunners which I don't like, there are too few exception where there are casters or archers. So I feel forced to play MMORPG because they have more class choices.
    Mobile has effected MMO's badly, but that goes for the whole of gaming, mobile standards and gameplay are becoming those we see on all platforms. Modding could be the saviour of MMOs but it raises proprietary issues, who owns the new content? Now modders can create new content under contract, but they would have to get paid, volunteering has legal issues that can bite you down the line. That's why MMO dropped the volunteer "helpers" MMOs once had, they went under many names, players who were "deputised" to help the players. But after legal issues cropped up they got dropped, the studios said thats why they had to drop them.

    So Modders would have to be paid which is not a bad thing, but makes it less enticing for the studio. The other issue is you have to give a lot of access to your code to allow modders to mod. Private servers anyone? That has to be a worry for studios as well.
    LynxJSA
  • UwakionnaUwakionna Member RarePosts: 1,139
    edited December 2022
    tenz_an said:
    Uwakionna said:
    You built a statement around assumptions of systems you didn't even know, and seem to admit you knew you may not know.

    Sounds like you should have been asking about what mechanics were actually present if you were conscious of this. Not asking if games were made for dummies based on your own missing knowledge.
    no, mechanics I may have not considered were about ESO, and ESO only.

    RPG for dummies for referred to only Tower of Fantasy and similar (and with similar I meant Genshin) ...
    You just cut back/backpedaled on what games you'd previously listed, and you made no such prior distinction before being corrected. Your complaint of the simplicity of "arcade" flows right into your mirrored rationale in your Tower of Fantasy statement, which leaves no reason to suppose any sudden separation of argument.

    As Scot mentioned, of course mobile is going to play like a mobile game. It's designed to a different standard for input and control. Even then you were corrected about it's gameplay though by Falz I believe. Weapon swapping and the additional effects and options it brings is a relevant point to it's overall complexity, even if one does not like weapon swapping. GW2 used weapon swapping to trigger action changes too, likewise in ESO, and even the likes of awakened weapons in BDO. It's become a regularly demonstrated mechanic over the last decade.

    Graphics is an odd argument because you're generally comparing games that are 10 to 20 years old, to brand new ones. Even then, take the likes of ESO and compare the detail on the modern gear and environments to Genshin or Tower of Fantasy. The level of detail is generally going to be higher in ESO even with it's overall age. The big difference is just style.

    As for your endgame suggestion, the concern tends to be control. If players create the dungeons and significant world narrative experiences over the end of the devs content, then the devs have to solve for how that impacts loot, xp progression, and how that could impact narrative progression they might have planned. It's a concern for live services, because they also want a path forward for expanding content themselves, which may generate conflict of interest.

    EDIT: Typos
    Post edited by Uwakionna on
  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,333
    edited December 2022
    Gear treadmills are the endgame of the level-based, class-restricted EQ/WOW branch of MMOs.

     The end game of Second Life, Star Wars Galaxies, Ultima Online, EVE Online, A Tale in the Desert, Puzzle Pirates, Entropia Universe, and Toon Town were all drastically different than the "get tier 1 to get tier 2 to get tier 3" endgame of most post-WOW MMORPGs.

     If you want a different end game, you need to play a game with game focus or game mechanics that don't lead to the same place.
    Uwakionna
    -- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG 
    RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? 
    FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?  
  • UwakionnaUwakionna Member RarePosts: 1,139
    LynxJSA said:
    Gear treadmills are the endgame of the level-based, class-restricted EQ/WOW branch of MMOs.

     The end game of Second Life, Star Wars Galaxies, Ultima Online, EVE Online, A Tale in the Desert, Puzzle Pirates, Entropia Universe, and Toon Town were all drastically different than the "get tier 1 to get tier 2 to get tier 3" endgame of most post-WOW MMORPGs.

     If you want a different end game, you need to play a game with game focus or game mechanics that don't lead to the same place.
    Game focus is a big thing there.

    It's the classic distinction of themepark vs sandbox or otherwise. While they don't have to be mutually exclusive, a hard leaning into a particular design, like linear narrative and predefined storylines focused on the individual player is a hard limiter to a broader more freeform or collaboratively built experience. A lot of the "big" MMOs are characterized by this however.

    Line of inquiry may be, what changes can be done to the core design of MMOs to bridge that gap between niche designs into a "main line".
    LynxJSA
  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,333
    Uwakionna said:

    Line of inquiry may be, what changes can be done to the core design of MMOs to bridge that gap between niche designs into a "main line".

    Three distinct components of MMOs seem to be theme park, sandbox, and the social aspect. When I worked at a game studio, we called that last one the 'coffee shop' or 'cafe'.

    Since people (at least the ones playing multiplayer games) seem mostly sadistic and sociopathic, that last aspect if often left out of the AAA titles, if for no other reason than to reduce support calls. However, we can see that the direct human interaction is desirable to one degree or another through a range of titles from VRChat to Rust. 

    A game that focuses on the sandbox and coffee shop aspects over getting the next Ding would change the endgame considerably. But your question wasnt about changing the end game but finding a place for it in the broader/larger market, so I'll get back on track. :) 

    As to getting it into a "main line", I'd say it needs to shoot for incorporating mobile. That device that is either in a person's pocket or in front of their face --- the device that is an integral part of people's lives. ESO, Warframe,  and many others have created companion apps, but that seems to have stagnated. There's a lot of potential there. 

    I am really disappointed that the industry hasn't done more on connecting virtual worlds with the way people live their lives. 10-12 years ago, I would have bet good money MMORPGs would have taken the reigns of modern connectivity and forged new paths. Fast-forward a decade, and the industry seems to have just stagnated. 

    That whole 'crowdfunding' period of train wrecks and utter disappointments also kinda reinforced that wise money is spent on staying the course. 



    -- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG 
    RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? 
    FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?  
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,440
    tenz_an said:

    I covered the basics of ESO combat work in what you are referring to. In comparison, the basics of WoW combat is auto-attack. A comparison on a broader scale requires that both games be considered so.

    ESO has slows, stuns, roots, knockdowns and such. It has abilities that affect those subsequently used. There are rotations for maximizing damage. There are abilities that provide bonuses that only by others so are more effective in group play. The game has more to it than you appear to be aware of.

    It seems you're not familiar with many aspects of the game.

    Tower of Fantasy is action game, but it too has more depth than you give it credit for. Characters have concurrent access to three weapons that they can swap between, with doing so causing different interactions depending on what you are swapping from and to.

    Perhaps you should assume less and learn more about what you speak so that your impressions can be based on a more solid foundation.
    I don't assume to be right, I just bring my opinion and I'm very ready to get corrected. Thanks for the explanation about ESO, yes maybe I didn't go too deep in its gameplay, it was hard to switch spells and abilities, I found very uncorfortable to have to assign them to each hand everytime i wanted to change them. I don't see why it was not possible to have keybinds like in wow or GW2, if not the cool combinations of keys that BDO has... But I guess someone like that kind of mess. I don't know.
    But for Tower of Fantasy please, even if you have 3 styles of weapons, it's just 3, the melee ones, the staff and the bow, come on, you want to compare that to the abilities of Wow or GW2? Or Bless Unleashed?
    Anyway I really hope one can write opinions without solid fondations or degrees on videogames here, or I will feel to be forced to leave the comments. Is it a sort of Academy or University of videogames here? I don't get why I earned such an unfriendly answer...

    It's not hard to switch abilities at all.

    It is done in the same place you put skill points into abilities, so as long as you spend those points you know where to find it. All you do is click and drag them on to the bar where you want them. It's a matter of moments.

    They are key bound. The key each bar slot is bound to is shown on the screen where you select abilities to place on your bar. You can change those binding to your preference under Controls, as well as the keys bound to other abilities not on the bar.

    Key combinations such as those found in BDO aren't common in MMORPGs, so while it could have such I see no reason it would be expected to.

    No, in Tower of Fantasy is not just three types of weapons. There are many more types, and each weapon of a type is different from others of the same type. These different weapons of different types interact with each other in different ways. You continue to underestimate the diversity their system allows.

    You can write opinions without solid foundation if you like, but don't expect those that have a more solid foundation to let inaccuracies presented along with those opinions to go unchallenged. If you feel that unfriendly that's unfortunate.
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