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What is with the Obsession with Challenge?

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,338
    edited August 2
    Quizzical said:
    Ungood said:
    Vrika said:
    No, it's not.

    There are different kinds of challenges. It's possible to make yourself a challenge by setting additional rules like "I'm not allowed to group", or "I'm not allowed to use any weapon I haven't crafted myself", or "I must play this game with one hand and take a drink every time I die".

    It's also possible to look for a game/difficulty setting/content that is in itself challenging, and then try to beat it using everything that's allowed within the game's rules.

    A lot of players look for the latter kind of challenge. We want only a challenge set for us by others, and creating a challenge by setting our own rules like "no grouping" won't make us happy.
    Eh?
    It's also possible to look for a game/difficulty setting/content that is in itself challenging, and then try to beat it using everything that's allowed within the game's rules.
    Well, Then, Congrats, you won. You beat the game to the point that it is trivial to you, as you set out to do.

    Think about this, you went through all that effort to make the game trivial, and then are unhappy when you achieve it?

    The absolute fuck, If you didn't want that end result, why the hell you even persue it.

    No one likes a sore winner.
    Just because you've beaten something once doesn't necessarily mean that it's trivial.  Do you think Nick Foles believes that it's trivial to win the Super Bowl?

    Besides, haven't you ever tried anything in your life that you struggled with at first, and then eventually beat it?

    Even Tom Brady with his 7 Championships does NOT get there every year, though it may seem like he does :)

    [edit]
    Of course, he did that with "group content." lol
    Ungood

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    AlBQuirky said:
    Quizzical said:
    My basic thesis is that developers should do one of two things:

    1)  Make the leveling content interesting, or
    2)  Skip the leveling content entirely.

    Don't we kind of have that now?
    1) MMORPGs
    2) MOBA and Battle Grounds

    Granted, most MMORPGs today have rather uninteresting leveling, but there used to be interesting leveling content :)
    You might be right about the "Most MMOs" I haven't played most of them.

    But, I personally I loved Leveling the first time in GW2. Now to be fair, I did it through Map Exploration and Personal Story, and I was 80th before I made it through 60% of the map, and it was an absolute blast, I played a Norn Guard, I loved that I was called "Slayer" which made me feel like a bad ass, and then I became Commander of the Pact, all the while traveling through the world from one point to another, getting lost, doing dynamic events, upgrading my gear every few levels, because I had no idea the gear mechanics really worked, I IMHO the way leveling in an MMO should be.

    My Second Character was leveled in WvW, back in the day of karma trains, and allowed me to get full map completion, which also a Huge blast.

    On top of that, when I made 80th, I just started to collect Writs of Experience, Leveling Tomes, and Experience Scrolls, from normal play, and right now I am sitting around 1000  levels if I ever planned to make another character, so basically, I will never have to "Level Up" again in this game.

    But then again, you said Most, and I am using one game, so you might be right.

    I will say, leveling in EQ1 was neither fun or passable, it was perhaps "fun" to many of the players, because for a lot of us, it was a new thing, so we were experiencing this whole new kind of gaming platform, but looking back, it really was a pretty bad system that would never fly into todays market,
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,753
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Quizzical said:
    My basic thesis is that developers should do one of two things:

    1)  Make the leveling content interesting, or
    2)  Skip the leveling content entirely.

    Don't we kind of have that now?
    1) MMORPGs
    2) MOBA and Battle Grounds

    Granted, most MMORPGs today have rather uninteresting leveling, but there used to be interesting leveling content :)
    You might be right about the "Most MMOs" I haven't played most of them.

    But, I personally I loved Leveling the first time in GW2. 
    Almost everything is best the first time... unless it was on the back seat of a VW bug.
    UngoodAlBQuirky
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    Iselin said:
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Quizzical said:
    My basic thesis is that developers should do one of two things:

    1)  Make the leveling content interesting, or
    2)  Skip the leveling content entirely.

    Don't we kind of have that now?
    1) MMORPGs
    2) MOBA and Battle Grounds

    Granted, most MMORPGs today have rather uninteresting leveling, but there used to be interesting leveling content :)
    You might be right about the "Most MMOs" I haven't played most of them.

    But, I personally I loved Leveling the first time in GW2. 
    Almost everything is best the first time... unless it was on the back seat of a VW bug.
    and even then..... sometimes.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 24,717
    Ungood said:
    Alright, to be fair, Normal in DDO is a decent challenge for a new player, learning how to play the game, while for some of the starting quests it might feel trivial, as you move up, some quests are just harder by the very nature of the quest itself. So, IMHO, it's good setting for players to learn the game on.

    Outdoor zones in DDO are scaled to Normal, and truth be told, as far as new players go, some of the named mobs in the outdoor zones can mess you up, quite nicely. But then again, that is not the best path to EXP all things said and done.

    But that is not a bad setting. I mean, when I play with my Main, anything less then Reaper is a joke. But, I still take my strolls through the open zones to get to the dungeon entrances. I'll admit, I have sometimes wondered if they could put a Difficulty Scale on the Outdoor Zones, but, then the idea goes away, as that would just make getting to the quest a resources sink, and legit, I don't want that.

    And I'll freely admit, even on my main, where I can chew through elite mobs like they are not even there, I still do dungeons on normal, a lot of times just explore them, where I want to look at all the side rooms, all the nooks, all the corners and cracks, and not worry about something jumping out on me. To be fair, SSG is kinda of dick about this, and have mobs spawn in different locations on various difficulties. So, I'll think a room is safe, because I checked out on normal, to find some red named champion there on Reaper.

    Also, I will do normal to learn a specific mechanic that I need to beat, like learning the Endurance or Agility test in Crucible, and practicing them on elite or higher is not fun at all, as the traps often kill you on the first mistake.

    In any case, as far as that goes, I would not want quests locked into harder difficulties, I like the option to do them on easier settings, when the mood or desire strikes me.

    Again to each their own on that, as I think DDO has the best difficulty setting of any MMO.
    I'm not saying that no one should ever be allowed to play DDO on normal.  But I am saying that, if normal were the only difficulty option available, don't you think that the game would be much worse for it?  The problem is that that is roughly what most MMORPGs do.
    AlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    Quizzical said:
    Ungood said:
    Again to each their own on that, as I think DDO has the best difficulty setting of any MMO.
    I'm not saying that no one should ever be allowed to play DDO on normal.  But I am saying that, if normal were the only difficulty option available, don't you think that the game would be much worse for it?  The problem is that that is roughly what most MMORPGs do.
    Yah that would suck.

    Equally so, locking the game on Elite, would also really suck for new players.

    So what do you expect to be done about it?

    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 24,717
    Ungood said:
    Quizzical said:
    Ungood said:
    Again to each their own on that, as I think DDO has the best difficulty setting of any MMO.
    I'm not saying that no one should ever be allowed to play DDO on normal.  But I am saying that, if normal were the only difficulty option available, don't you think that the game would be much worse for it?  The problem is that that is roughly what most MMORPGs do.
    Yah that would suck.

    Equally so, locking the game on Elite, would also really suck for new players.

    So what do you expect to be done about it?

    Other games could do roughly what DDO did and give players a choice on difficulty of the leveling process.

    But even if you're not going to do that, I'm not asking for everything to be locked on roughly DDO's elite difficulty.  It used to be common that MMOs were closer to DDO's hard.  Now they seem to mostly have been nerfed down to DDO's normal.  DDO's hard is generally not that hard at level, but it's hardly trivial like DDO's normal.  If that's the difficulty that MMOs were going for, then I'd consider the problem mostly solved.
    AlBQuirky
  • UwakionnaUwakionna Member RarePosts: 638
    edited August 3
    Here's a somewhat relevant video about progression and what it means for content.



    EDIT: The relation here for me being; I'd argue challenge is integral to 'meaningful content' when one is talking about engaging with a game as a direct source of entertainment.

    I make this distinction as "a direct source", because an MMO is also a great platform for indirect entertainment. Much as a vapid sandbox that is boring on it's own can be great fun with other players, MMOs that facilitate community interaction can be quite fun in ways that do not carry an overt challenge.

    But in terms of player versus structured game content, challenge always is a component necessary to engaging content.

    Problem arises when the majority of a game's surface content is structured to lead you to gated challenge content, it devalues thew world of the game itself. Sort of like how efficient progression getting bound to dungeon runs and what-not leads to an MMO being treated like a lobby game, it compartmentalizes the challenge to the point that a vast chunk of the virtual playspace becomes neglected or is treated as padding to reaching "actual" content.

    Are fighting the random mobs in the open world actually thought of as an engaging part of the gameplay for most? Or is it the thing you do because an NPC told you to, and the rest of the time you do your best to ignore those mobs while you run halfway across the continent to find the next quest objective?
    TheDalaiBombaAlBQuirkyShaigh
  • mastersomratymastersomraty Newbie CommonPosts: 3
    The biggest issue I find with MMOs is leveling is so easy, one is unable to get vested.  In fact, the only two I.ve found that have "challenging" leveling is WoW classic-ish and Lotro (because they added challenge slider).  When I say more challenging, I mean NOT killing mobs in 1-2 attacks.  There are so many games I've started and would like to play but cant because the leveling exp is...well....its sad.
    AlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    Quizzical said:
    Ungood said:
    Quizzical said:
    Ungood said:
    Again to each their own on that, as I think DDO has the best difficulty setting of any MMO.
    I'm not saying that no one should ever be allowed to play DDO on normal.  But I am saying that, if normal were the only difficulty option available, don't you think that the game would be much worse for it?  The problem is that that is roughly what most MMORPGs do.
    Yah that would suck.

    Equally so, locking the game on Elite, would also really suck for new players.

    So what do you expect to be done about it?

    Other games could do roughly what DDO did and give players a choice on difficulty of the leveling process.

    But even if you're not going to do that, I'm not asking for everything to be locked on roughly DDO's elite difficulty.  It used to be common that MMOs were closer to DDO's hard.  Now they seem to mostly have been nerfed down to DDO's normal.  DDO's hard is generally not that hard at level, but it's hardly trivial like DDO's normal.  If that's the difficulty that MMOs were going for, then I'd consider the problem mostly solved.
    Alright, this is where we disagree, as I think Normal in DDO was a good baseline for new players.

    I mean, with the current power creep, new classes, and what have you, it can feel weaker, but when I started, the gear was a lot worse, and normal felt a lot harder, then it no doubt feels to players today.

    Not to mention, depending on the quest, there is a lot of variance between what "Hard" is.

    Blah blah blah.. Honestly. I don't think the grind should be hard, I think "hard" should be kept to situations that clue the player in that this will be "Harder" then what they are used to.

    Case in point, doing Open World Content, IMHO, overall, should be somewhat easy, but then you have things like TERA's BAM's, and they look like these "Big Ass Monsters" so a player gets ready for a more intense fight then what would be a normal open world mob.

    Equally so, with things like Raid Bosses, and even Dungeons, you somewhat expect the difficulty to go up a few notches, when the environment changes.

    Some idea that it's all the same difficulty, does not sit with me, and I am not sure what MMO does that, I haven't played it, but, even EQ1 gave a system of difficulty challenge, from Gray to Red, so if you wanted to push yourself, you could, and they even mixed up the mobs in the zone, so they were not all the same power levels.

    So the player that wanted to test their mettle could go off and try to fight Froon and Choon for exp and challenge, while the others could go hunt wolves around the tower.

    IMHO, the way MMO's should be.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 1,265
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:

    You put in the effort to make the game easy.. and you made the game easy.. congrats...  why the hell are you crying for?

    Those that seek constant challenge in the games they play will no longer find satisfaction in what is now easy. They will replace it with a different game that challenges because that is what they crave.
    Well, that's on them, if they didn't want to achieve that goal, they should not have aspired to it.

    Like seriously, that is like someone who puts in all their effort to become rich to make their life easier, and after achieving making millions and having enough money to do whatever they want, they just bitch and complain about how now that they are rich, life has no challenges anymore and they can do whatever they want with no problems.

    Doesn't that sound kinda stupid as fuck to you?


    Wow like seriously?  You think its stupid to set a goal achieve it, then want another goal to achieve?

    I get if someone is not an achiever, but not even capable of understanding peoples drive to achieve is just on another level.

    So when you were a kid you asked for a bicycle, got it and were perfectly happy with that for the rest of your life?  You didn't reset to goal to a motorcycle, car, truck, boat or whatever?

    I guess that's where they derive the term slacker LOL.  Some people dream big others don't dream at all.
    AlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    edited August 3
    Brainy said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:

    You put in the effort to make the game easy.. and you made the game easy.. congrats...  why the hell are you crying for?

    Those that seek constant challenge in the games they play will no longer find satisfaction in what is now easy. They will replace it with a different game that challenges because that is what they crave.
    Well, that's on them, if they didn't want to achieve that goal, they should not have aspired to it.

    Like seriously, that is like someone who puts in all their effort to become rich to make their life easier, and after achieving making millions and having enough money to do whatever they want, they just bitch and complain about how now that they are rich, life has no challenges anymore and they can do whatever they want with no problems.

    Doesn't that sound kinda stupid as fuck to you?


    Wow like seriously?  You think its stupid to set a goal achieve it, then want another goal to achieve?

    I get if someone is not an achiever, but not even capable of understanding peoples drive to achieve is just on another level.

    So when you were a kid you asked for a bicycle, got it and were perfectly happy with that for the rest of your life?  You didn't reset to goal to a motorcycle, car, truck, boat or whatever?

    I guess that's where they derive the term slacker LOL.  Some people dream big others don't dream at all.
    Key work "Another" goal, not the same fucking goal over again.

    Lets use your example. They aspire to get the best bicycle, not just any old bike, but they want the best bike to make their commune down to the beach easier. They finally get what is the industry standard "Best Beach Cruiser Bike Ever Made", and now their daily grind of biking down to the beach is easy.

    Should they be happy with their bike and accomplishment and enjoy it, because that is what they set out to do. Or should they bitch, moan, and complain that the bike down to the beach is too easy now?

    If after getting the bike I wanted, I was then to look for a Motorcycle, or a Car, that was because one of two things changed.

    1) The Trip Changed: and thus now I had some Other Trip to go on that was harder to do on the bike then I wanted to do. So I am now looking to trivialize that trip, and maybe I am some dumbass, who after getting the motorcycle to trivialize that longer trip, would then complain like a impotent prick that the trip is now too easy, but also refuse to go back to using my bike, because, I don't really want the challenge, I just want to act like I want the challenge, for some insane fucking demented reason or another.

    Or maybe I am a super dumbass, who after happy riding my bike to the beach, complained to the town that the trip was too easy, so they changed it a bit, and now it's harder, but I really don't like the harder, and all I really wanted to to justify getting the Motorcycle, and now complain that the trip is sooooo hard, and that I need a Motorcycle to do it, and expect someone to gift me that too.

    2) I changed: For some reason or another, Riding the Bike became less fun and efficient than it used to be for me. In this case, I am now looking for things like a Motorized e-Bike, a Motorcycle, or some other way to make the trip easier. In this case, I would not be complaining that the trip was too easy, in fact, I would be complaining that the trip became too hard.

    Or perhaps there is an Option 3, and it has nothing to do with outside situations, I am just an insecure little shit, and the only thing that changed was that I want the bike because I think it makes me look bad ass or some shit, there is that option to.

    But at the end of the day, if someone asked for bike to make their trip easier, and then upon receiving that bike as a gift, all they did was bitch and complain about wanting to get a motorcycle, the phrase many use for people like that, is Ungrateful Little Shit.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 1,265
    Ungood said:
    Brainy said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:

    You put in the effort to make the game easy.. and you made the game easy.. congrats...  why the hell are you crying for?

    Those that seek constant challenge in the games they play will no longer find satisfaction in what is now easy. They will replace it with a different game that challenges because that is what they crave.
    Well, that's on them, if they didn't want to achieve that goal, they should not have aspired to it.

    Like seriously, that is like someone who puts in all their effort to become rich to make their life easier, and after achieving making millions and having enough money to do whatever they want, they just bitch and complain about how now that they are rich, life has no challenges anymore and they can do whatever they want with no problems.

    Doesn't that sound kinda stupid as fuck to you?


    Wow like seriously?  You think its stupid to set a goal achieve it, then want another goal to achieve?

    I get if someone is not an achiever, but not even capable of understanding peoples drive to achieve is just on another level.

    So when you were a kid you asked for a bicycle, got it and were perfectly happy with that for the rest of your life?  You didn't reset to goal to a motorcycle, car, truck, boat or whatever?

    I guess that's where they derive the term slacker LOL.  Some people dream big others don't dream at all.
    Key work "Another" goal, not the same fucking goal over again.

    Lets use your example. They aspire to get the best bicycle, not just any old bike, but they want the best bike to make their commune down to the beach easier. They finally get what is the industry standard "Best Beach Cruiser Bike Ever Made", and now their daily grind of biking down to the beach is easy.

    Should they be happy with their bike and accomplishment and enjoy it, because that is what they set out to do. Or should they bitch, moan, and complain that the bike down to the beach is too easy now?

    If after getting the bike I wanted, I was then to look for a Motorcycle, or a Car, that was because one of two things changed.

    1) The Trip Changed: and thus now I had some Other Trip to go on that was harder to do on the bike then I wanted to do. So I am now looking to trivialize that trip, and maybe I am some dumbass, who after getting the motorcycle to trivialize that longer trip, would then complain like a impotent prick that the trip is now too easy, but also refuse to go back to using my bike, because, I don't really want the challenge, I just want to act like I want the challenge, for some insane fucking demented reason or another.

    Or maybe I am a super dumbass, who after happy riding my bike to the beach, complained to the town that the trip was too easy, so they changed it a bit, and now it's harder, but I really don't like the harder, and all I really wanted to to justify getting the Motorcycle, and now complain that the trip is sooooo hard, and that I need a Motorcycle to do it, and expect someone to gift me that too.

    2) I changed: For some reason or another, Riding the Bike became less fun and efficient than it used to be for me. In this case, I am now looking for things like a Motorized e-Bike, a Motorcycle, or some other way to make the trip easier. In this case, I would not be complaining that the trip was too easy, in fact, I would be complaining that the trip became too hard.

    Or perhaps there is an Option 3, and it has nothing to do with outside situations, I am just an insecure little shit, and the only thing that changed was that I want the bike because I think it makes me look bad ass or some shit, there is that option to.

    But at the end of the day, if someone asked for bike to make their trip easier, and then upon receiving that bike as a gift, all they did was bitch and complain about wanting to get a motorcycle, the phrase many use for people like that, is Ungrateful Little Shit.

    Ok lets go with your bike analogy.  First people are not complaining immediately upon reaching the goal.  Its only after they have completed the goal, explored the area, completed everything they wanted to do, NOW they want something different.  Change of scenery, change of location, maybe they progressed and want another challenge to overcome.

    I am sorry you are finding riding up and down your street difficult.  But most people after they explore their immediate area, want to venture out further, their immediate area becomes EZ and boring.

    BUT here is the problem.  The game studios are not allowing you to venture out further.  Over time they are making it actually Easier than than it was originally, for people just like you, who say what you did above, you actually need it easier over time.  So now they are allowing only Toddler bikes and restricting you to your front porch.  LOL I am sorry that EZ mode content seems difficult for you, but its pretty much a setback for most people.

    So go ahead and do your circles in your driveway on your red tricycle, but the big kids want MORE out of life than that.  They want a challenge or at least a partial challenge.
    ScotAlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,452
    edited August 3
    Brainy said:

    Ok lets go with your bike analogy.  First people are not complaining immediately upon reaching the goal.  Its only after they have completed the goal, explored the area, completed everything they wanted to do, NOW they want something different.  Change of scenery, change of location, maybe they progressed and want another challenge to overcome.

    I am sorry you are finding riding up and down your street difficult.  But most people after they explore their immediate area, want to venture out further, their immediate area becomes EZ and boring.

    BUT here is the problem.  The game studios are not allowing you to venture out further.  Over time they are making it actually Easier than than it was originally, for people just like you, who say what you did above, you actually need it easier over time.  So now they are allowing only Toddler bikes and restricting you to your front porch.  LOL I am sorry that EZ mode content seems difficult for you, but its pretty much a setback for most people.

    So go ahead and do your circles in your driveway on your red tricycle, but the big kids want MORE out of life than that.  They want a challenge or at least a partial challenge.
    An example of this is the "loop" which is no replacement for solid and variegated end game content. The loop of course gets ever easier as that's the only direction MMOs go in, most recently of note in New World, doing this just makes a loop even more of a hamster wheel than it already is.


    BrainyAlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    edited August 3
    Brainy said:
    Ok lets go with your bike analogy.  First people are not complaining immediately upon reaching the goal.  Its only after they have completed the goal, explored the area, completed everything they wanted to do, NOW they want something different.  Change of scenery, change of location, maybe they progressed and want another challenge to overcome.
    IF, after you did all a game had to offer, and felt it was all too easy, well, at some point you need to admit, you beat the game, and that would be the point. 

    Congrats, you Won, not sure why you are crying about it tho.

    I mean do people really play games to never win?
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 24,717
    Ungood said:
    Quizzical said:
    Ungood said:
    Quizzical said:
    Ungood said:
    Again to each their own on that, as I think DDO has the best difficulty setting of any MMO.
    I'm not saying that no one should ever be allowed to play DDO on normal.  But I am saying that, if normal were the only difficulty option available, don't you think that the game would be much worse for it?  The problem is that that is roughly what most MMORPGs do.
    Yah that would suck.

    Equally so, locking the game on Elite, would also really suck for new players.

    So what do you expect to be done about it?

    Other games could do roughly what DDO did and give players a choice on difficulty of the leveling process.

    But even if you're not going to do that, I'm not asking for everything to be locked on roughly DDO's elite difficulty.  It used to be common that MMOs were closer to DDO's hard.  Now they seem to mostly have been nerfed down to DDO's normal.  DDO's hard is generally not that hard at level, but it's hardly trivial like DDO's normal.  If that's the difficulty that MMOs were going for, then I'd consider the problem mostly solved.
    Alright, this is where we disagree, as I think Normal in DDO was a good baseline for new players.

    I mean, with the current power creep, new classes, and what have you, it can feel weaker, but when I started, the gear was a lot worse, and normal felt a lot harder, then it no doubt feels to players today.

    Not to mention, depending on the quest, there is a lot of variance between what "Hard" is.

    Blah blah blah.. Honestly. I don't think the grind should be hard, I think "hard" should be kept to situations that clue the player in that this will be "Harder" then what they are used to.

    Case in point, doing Open World Content, IMHO, overall, should be somewhat easy, but then you have things like TERA's BAM's, and they look like these "Big Ass Monsters" so a player gets ready for a more intense fight then what would be a normal open world mob.

    Equally so, with things like Raid Bosses, and even Dungeons, you somewhat expect the difficulty to go up a few notches, when the environment changes.

    Some idea that it's all the same difficulty, does not sit with me, and I am not sure what MMO does that, I haven't played it, but, even EQ1 gave a system of difficulty challenge, from Gray to Red, so if you wanted to push yourself, you could, and they even mixed up the mobs in the zone, so they were not all the same power levels.

    So the player that wanted to test their mettle could go off and try to fight Froon and Choon for exp and challenge, while the others could go hunt wolves around the tower.

    IMHO, the way MMO's should be.
    Are you arguing that the difficult at launch of normal is a good baseline?  Or are you arguing that the difficulty today of normal is a good baseline?  You seem to agree that they're very different things.

    Let's suppose that "hard" difficulty today is about as hard as "normal" at launch.  I don't know if it's true, but let's supposed that it is for simplicity.  That's a fine baseline at launch if the game isn't going to have adjustable difficulty.  But I want it to remain the difficulty as years go by rather than steadily getting nerfed until nearly the entire game is trivial.  DDO manages that by having adjustable difficulty levels.  Most MMORPGs don't.
    BrainyAlBQuirky
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 24,717
    Ungood said:
    Brainy said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:

    You put in the effort to make the game easy.. and you made the game easy.. congrats...  why the hell are you crying for?

    Those that seek constant challenge in the games they play will no longer find satisfaction in what is now easy. They will replace it with a different game that challenges because that is what they crave.
    Well, that's on them, if they didn't want to achieve that goal, they should not have aspired to it.

    Like seriously, that is like someone who puts in all their effort to become rich to make their life easier, and after achieving making millions and having enough money to do whatever they want, they just bitch and complain about how now that they are rich, life has no challenges anymore and they can do whatever they want with no problems.

    Doesn't that sound kinda stupid as fuck to you?


    Wow like seriously?  You think its stupid to set a goal achieve it, then want another goal to achieve?

    I get if someone is not an achiever, but not even capable of understanding peoples drive to achieve is just on another level.

    So when you were a kid you asked for a bicycle, got it and were perfectly happy with that for the rest of your life?  You didn't reset to goal to a motorcycle, car, truck, boat or whatever?

    I guess that's where they derive the term slacker LOL.  Some people dream big others don't dream at all.
    Key work "Another" goal, not the same fucking goal over again.

    Lets use your example. They aspire to get the best bicycle, not just any old bike, but they want the best bike to make their commune down to the beach easier. They finally get what is the industry standard "Best Beach Cruiser Bike Ever Made", and now their daily grind of biking down to the beach is easy.

    Should they be happy with their bike and accomplishment and enjoy it, because that is what they set out to do. Or should they bitch, moan, and complain that the bike down to the beach is too easy now?

    If after getting the bike I wanted, I was then to look for a Motorcycle, or a Car, that was because one of two things changed.

    1) The Trip Changed: and thus now I had some Other Trip to go on that was harder to do on the bike then I wanted to do. So I am now looking to trivialize that trip, and maybe I am some dumbass, who after getting the motorcycle to trivialize that longer trip, would then complain like a impotent prick that the trip is now too easy, but also refuse to go back to using my bike, because, I don't really want the challenge, I just want to act like I want the challenge, for some insane fucking demented reason or another.

    Or maybe I am a super dumbass, who after happy riding my bike to the beach, complained to the town that the trip was too easy, so they changed it a bit, and now it's harder, but I really don't like the harder, and all I really wanted to to justify getting the Motorcycle, and now complain that the trip is sooooo hard, and that I need a Motorcycle to do it, and expect someone to gift me that too.

    2) I changed: For some reason or another, Riding the Bike became less fun and efficient than it used to be for me. In this case, I am now looking for things like a Motorized e-Bike, a Motorcycle, or some other way to make the trip easier. In this case, I would not be complaining that the trip was too easy, in fact, I would be complaining that the trip became too hard.

    Or perhaps there is an Option 3, and it has nothing to do with outside situations, I am just an insecure little shit, and the only thing that changed was that I want the bike because I think it makes me look bad ass or some shit, there is that option to.

    But at the end of the day, if someone asked for bike to make their trip easier, and then upon receiving that bike as a gift, all they did was bitch and complain about wanting to get a motorcycle, the phrase many use for people like that, is Ungrateful Little Shit.
    Most people who buy a bike (or a car or a motorcycle) don't do it to unlock the achievement of owning a bike.  Especially for a car, they buy it because they want it to be easier to get from where they are to where they're going.  That may also be the motivation behind buying a bike, though the bike could also be for the sake of exercise, in that they want to be healthier.

    Outside of "play to earn", items in computer games don't have any use outside of the game.  You don't try to complete a quest or get an epic item or whatever for the sake of making your life better outside of the game.  Playing the game is the end in itself.  That's fine if the game is fun, but not if the game isn't.

    You probably don't go to your construction job just because you think it's an interesting job.  You go there because you want to get paid.  For most people, that's in the form of a paycheck.  If you happen to own the business, the situation is more complicated, but you're still there for the sake of making money.  So of course you don't want your job to be artificially challenging and thus less productive and less lucrative.  You're there for money, not for fun.  And there's nothing wrong with working at a job for the sake of making money, but that's not the point of computer games.
    AlBQuirkyBrainy
  • eoloeeoloe Member RarePosts: 748
    Quizzical said:
    Especially for a car, they buy it because they want it to be easier to get from where they are to where they're going.  T
    Well... Here in Texas, you have a car or die burnt by the sun in a deadly long walk. Nothing is at walking distance but the dog shit.
    Plus, you look weird walking by the road, in the grass. Yep, no sidewalk available.

    So you are either:
    - a homeless guy
    - a guy who got in a fight with his wife
    - under the influence
    - all of the above!

    Finally if you walk, you look so strange that you hear the click of people locking their car doors when they're about to pass you.
    AlBQuirkycameltosisUngood
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    Quizzical said:
    Ungood said:
    Quizzical said:
    Ungood said:
    Quizzical said:
    Ungood said:
    Again to each their own on that, as I think DDO has the best difficulty setting of any MMO.
    I'm not saying that no one should ever be allowed to play DDO on normal.  But I am saying that, if normal were the only difficulty option available, don't you think that the game would be much worse for it?  The problem is that that is roughly what most MMORPGs do.
    Yah that would suck.

    Equally so, locking the game on Elite, would also really suck for new players.

    So what do you expect to be done about it?

    Other games could do roughly what DDO did and give players a choice on difficulty of the leveling process.

    But even if you're not going to do that, I'm not asking for everything to be locked on roughly DDO's elite difficulty.  It used to be common that MMOs were closer to DDO's hard.  Now they seem to mostly have been nerfed down to DDO's normal.  DDO's hard is generally not that hard at level, but it's hardly trivial like DDO's normal.  If that's the difficulty that MMOs were going for, then I'd consider the problem mostly solved.
    Alright, this is where we disagree, as I think Normal in DDO was a good baseline for new players.

    I mean, with the current power creep, new classes, and what have you, it can feel weaker, but when I started, the gear was a lot worse, and normal felt a lot harder, then it no doubt feels to players today.

    Not to mention, depending on the quest, there is a lot of variance between what "Hard" is.

    Blah blah blah.. Honestly. I don't think the grind should be hard, I think "hard" should be kept to situations that clue the player in that this will be "Harder" then what they are used to.

    Case in point, doing Open World Content, IMHO, overall, should be somewhat easy, but then you have things like TERA's BAM's, and they look like these "Big Ass Monsters" so a player gets ready for a more intense fight then what would be a normal open world mob.

    Equally so, with things like Raid Bosses, and even Dungeons, you somewhat expect the difficulty to go up a few notches, when the environment changes.

    Some idea that it's all the same difficulty, does not sit with me, and I am not sure what MMO does that, I haven't played it, but, even EQ1 gave a system of difficulty challenge, from Gray to Red, so if you wanted to push yourself, you could, and they even mixed up the mobs in the zone, so they were not all the same power levels.

    So the player that wanted to test their mettle could go off and try to fight Froon and Choon for exp and challenge, while the others could go hunt wolves around the tower.

    IMHO, the way MMO's should be.
    Are you arguing that the difficult at launch of normal is a good baseline?  Or are you arguing that the difficulty today of normal is a good baseline?  You seem to agree that they're very different things.

    Let's suppose that "hard" difficulty today is about as hard as "normal" at launch.  I don't know if it's true, but let's supposed that it is for simplicity.  That's a fine baseline at launch if the game isn't going to have adjustable difficulty.  But I want it to remain the difficulty as years go by rather than steadily getting nerfed until nearly the entire game is trivial.  DDO manages that by having adjustable difficulty levels.  Most MMORPGs don't.
    You're right, most MMO's don't.

    In fact, in DDO, to combat Power Creep, they added in Reaper 1 - 10 difficulties, just so players that wanted to challenge themselves could.

    Which, truth be told, puts DDO leaps ahead of pretty much everyone else.

    Pity more games did not adopt this method.

    But they didn't.. and such is life.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 3,265
    Ungood said:

    I mean do people really play games to never win?

    MMORPG players do, at least with live games. Such have no victory condition by which to win and no matter what you achieve new challenges are always forthcoming.
    AlBQuirky
  • Ralphie2449Ralphie2449 Member UncommonPosts: 507
    edited August 11
    Simple, it is purely psychological, most gamers are not the most healthy self fulfilled people so they try to use video game achievement as some sort of accomplishment (Even though video games are literally made to be beaten by design therefore they arent something to be proud of).

    There is a huge and unhealthy obsession over challenging content because their self esteem depends on it, it is also why you see many elitists foam in their mouths if casuals or solo players get to have the same rewards/gear as them. They have attached their value to a video game and it shows and many game makers know it.

    What makes this even more deceptive is group content, if you tune a solo encounter to be as challenging as the group encounter you will often, if you are decent realize that it was quite easy to beat after a few deaths. But if you do the challenge as a group, even if devs tuned it to be on the similar level it will feel harder simply due to the fact that not everyone in the group is of equal performance, the person who needs 10 deaths to learn a mechanic will slow you down so much so by the time you manage to beat the group encounter you feel it was some great challenging and hard achievement.

    Now if a person failed to beat the solo encounter they have nobody else to blame but themselves, which leads to the second part of group content effect.

    Group content allows a person to defend their failure by blaming others while take responsibility for the victory, same thing applies to mmorpg group content. Something often seen in RTS, casuals always preferred 2v2s or 4v4s instead of 1v1s, the success of mobas is also partially because of that, people can always blame their terrible teammate and tell themselves they played well even though it could be a lie.


    Truth is people dont really want challenging content, they want the ILLUSION of challenge so they feel they succeeded and are """"skilled""""

    Which again I remind them, is in a video game, against scripted opponents that give you visual/audio warnings and only attack one area so you have a safe space, no real challenging opponent would do that in real life so to take pride in beating a script is beyond sad.

    AlBQuirkyUngood
  • UwakionnaUwakionna Member RarePosts: 638
    edited August 11
    That's a rather cynical perspective. It's also seemingly carrying a very hard bias in the definition of challenge.

    EDIT: Yeah, on reading it again it makes even less sense.

    Defining games as "the illusion of challenge" and comparing it to real life, they have created a false duality.

    Like the one thing they claim about reality;

    "no real challenging opponent would do that in real life"

    This is actually a false statement. This is known as a "tell" most of the time in reality. From the way someone shifts their legs, the shift of the shoulders, to the tensing and windup for a strike. Reality is littered with tells.

    But maybe that's just in the way humans/creatures move? Nope, there's millions of tells in every day life for inanimate things too. From the sound an engine makes to the sort of noise something makes as it heats, to knowing the sort of resistance or feedback a machine gives you while passing a piece of wood through it.

    Challenge itself is learning. Be it a virtual challenge or a real world one, they are almost all a fixed hurdle of pattern recognition and physical coordination/reaction.

    The notion that people desire challenge from game experiences because of a lack of fulfillment is itself projecting the notion that those who seek challenge are somehow dissatisfied or unfulfilled.

    Seeking out hobbies to provide satisfaction in mastering is not mutually exclusive to being fulfilled or satisfied in life in general. The fact most hobbies are themselves vapid challenges aside, be they tangible or digital, the seeking of puzzles to solve and things to learn and exercise the brain is a very real and normal element to actually leading a healthy life. 
    Post edited by Uwakionna on
    AlBQuirkyBrainy
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,802
    Ungood said:
    Quizzical said:
    Ungood said:
    Quizzical said:
    Ungood said:
    Quizzical said:
    Ungood said:
    Again to each their own on that, as I think DDO has the best difficulty setting of any MMO.
    I'm not saying that no one should ever be allowed to play DDO on normal.  But I am saying that, if normal were the only difficulty option available, don't you think that the game would be much worse for it?  The problem is that that is roughly what most MMORPGs do.
    Yah that would suck.

    Equally so, locking the game on Elite, would also really suck for new players.

    So what do you expect to be done about it?

    Other games could do roughly what DDO did and give players a choice on difficulty of the leveling process.

    But even if you're not going to do that, I'm not asking for everything to be locked on roughly DDO's elite difficulty.  It used to be common that MMOs were closer to DDO's hard.  Now they seem to mostly have been nerfed down to DDO's normal.  DDO's hard is generally not that hard at level, but it's hardly trivial like DDO's normal.  If that's the difficulty that MMOs were going for, then I'd consider the problem mostly solved.
    Alright, this is where we disagree, as I think Normal in DDO was a good baseline for new players.

    I mean, with the current power creep, new classes, and what have you, it can feel weaker, but when I started, the gear was a lot worse, and normal felt a lot harder, then it no doubt feels to players today.

    Not to mention, depending on the quest, there is a lot of variance between what "Hard" is.

    Blah blah blah.. Honestly. I don't think the grind should be hard, I think "hard" should be kept to situations that clue the player in that this will be "Harder" then what they are used to.

    Case in point, doing Open World Content, IMHO, overall, should be somewhat easy, but then you have things like TERA's BAM's, and they look like these "Big Ass Monsters" so a player gets ready for a more intense fight then what would be a normal open world mob.

    Equally so, with things like Raid Bosses, and even Dungeons, you somewhat expect the difficulty to go up a few notches, when the environment changes.

    Some idea that it's all the same difficulty, does not sit with me, and I am not sure what MMO does that, I haven't played it, but, even EQ1 gave a system of difficulty challenge, from Gray to Red, so if you wanted to push yourself, you could, and they even mixed up the mobs in the zone, so they were not all the same power levels.

    So the player that wanted to test their mettle could go off and try to fight Froon and Choon for exp and challenge, while the others could go hunt wolves around the tower.

    IMHO, the way MMO's should be.
    Are you arguing that the difficult at launch of normal is a good baseline?  Or are you arguing that the difficulty today of normal is a good baseline?  You seem to agree that they're very different things.

    Let's suppose that "hard" difficulty today is about as hard as "normal" at launch.  I don't know if it's true, but let's supposed that it is for simplicity.  That's a fine baseline at launch if the game isn't going to have adjustable difficulty.  But I want it to remain the difficulty as years go by rather than steadily getting nerfed until nearly the entire game is trivial.  DDO manages that by having adjustable difficulty levels.  Most MMORPGs don't.
    You're right, most MMO's don't.

    In fact, in DDO, to combat Power Creep, they added in Reaper 1 - 10 difficulties, just so players that wanted to challenge themselves could.

    Which, truth be told, puts DDO leaps ahead of pretty much everyone else.

    Pity more games did not adopt this method.

    But they didn't.. and such is life.
    It really depends on what the game world is trying to do.

    Dungeons and Dragons online is more like the tabletop game in that it has various modules/scripted adventures where a person or group can experience them over and over again.

    A mmorpg that is more of a world probably shouldn't have multiple difficulties as it's more about how the community experiences that world.


    UngoodAlBQuirky
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,512
    Simple, it is purely psychological, most gamers are not the most healthy self fulfilled people so they try to use video game achievement as some sort of accomplishment (Even though video games are literally made to be beaten by design therefore they arent something to be proud of).

    There is a huge and unhealthy obsession over challenging content because their self esteem depends on it, it is also why you see many elitists foam in their mouths if casuals or solo players get to have the same rewards/gear as them. They have attached their value to a video game and it shows and many game makers know it.

    What makes this even more deceptive is group content, if you tune a solo encounter to be as challenging as the group encounter you will often, if you are decent realize that it was quite easy to beat after a few deaths. But if you do the challenge as a group, even if devs tuned it to be on the similar level it will feel harder simply due to the fact that not everyone in the group is of equal performance, the person who needs 10 deaths to learn a mechanic will slow you down so much so by the time you manage to beat the group encounter you feel it was some great challenging and hard achievement.

    Now if a person failed to beat the solo encounter they have nobody else to blame but themselves, which leads to the second part of group content effect.

    Group content allows a person to defend their failure by blaming others while take responsibility for the victory, same thing applies to mmorpg group content. Something often seen in RTS, casuals always preferred 2v2s or 4v4s instead of 1v1s, the success of mobas is also partially because of that, people can always blame their terrible teammate and tell themselves they played well even though it could be a lie.


    Truth is people dont really want challenging content, they want the ILLUSION of challenge so they feel they succeeded and are """"skilled""""

    Which again I remind them, is in a video game, against scripted opponents that give you visual/audio warnings and only attack one area so you have a safe space, no real challenging opponent would do that in real life so to take pride in beating a script is beyond sad.

    I think the problem we have is intolerant people who are not willing to accept that people have different likes, and instead try to explain some of those differences away as being caused by inferiority, fault, or even sickness of the people with different opinions.
    AlBQuirkyKnightFalzQuizzicalUngood
     
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 3,265
    Simple, it is purely psychological,

    It can be, but need not. Nothing psychological is simple save to those that have never had to personally deal with such issues.

    AlBQuirkyUngood
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