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Stealth systems
Amaranthar
Member EpicPosts: 5,797
I always like stealthy game play. But how that functions is pretty important.
You want it so that it's possible, yet with risk. It's no fun to have no risk at all, but you also don't want it to fail a lot, especially if your character is highly skilled at it.
I'm not familiar with other games on how it functions, in detail.
But in UO, they had it so that you would only have a chance to be discovered in 2 way.
1, If the opponent got close enough to hit on a roll and see you.
2, If you moved closer to the opponent, giving them a "roll" against your skill.
So, with that, if you saw an opponent moving closer to you, you could stealth away at good odds of success. This meant losing ground on where you wanted to go, but added to the game play of "stealthing."
Next, if you are discovered, you want options. Obviously, some fast combat skills to rid yourself of that particular opponent, but also/otherwise ways to get back into stealth mode while an opponent is viewing you. That puff of smoke trick in WoW was a good one (I'm not very familiar) if it works like a stealth roll with bonuses. In other words, not automatic success.
Another is to "blind" the opponent by some means. Or confuse them via magic or poison, or even maybe a hit to the noggin.
I'm wondering what you've seen that worked well, or if anyone has any ideas to enhance the game play of stealthing around in a dangerous world.
You want it so that it's possible, yet with risk. It's no fun to have no risk at all, but you also don't want it to fail a lot, especially if your character is highly skilled at it.
I'm not familiar with other games on how it functions, in detail.
But in UO, they had it so that you would only have a chance to be discovered in 2 way.
1, If the opponent got close enough to hit on a roll and see you.
2, If you moved closer to the opponent, giving them a "roll" against your skill.
So, with that, if you saw an opponent moving closer to you, you could stealth away at good odds of success. This meant losing ground on where you wanted to go, but added to the game play of "stealthing."
Next, if you are discovered, you want options. Obviously, some fast combat skills to rid yourself of that particular opponent, but also/otherwise ways to get back into stealth mode while an opponent is viewing you. That puff of smoke trick in WoW was a good one (I'm not very familiar) if it works like a stealth roll with bonuses. In other words, not automatic success.
Another is to "blind" the opponent by some means. Or confuse them via magic or poison, or even maybe a hit to the noggin.
I'm wondering what you've seen that worked well, or if anyone has any ideas to enhance the game play of stealthing around in a dangerous world.
Once upon a time....
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Comments
You had a short duration cloak, but you only used that to find a good spot to "disguise" yourself in the game by swapping your Spy character model for a model identical to a member of the enemy team.
The skill in it was finding logical and intuitive-feeling ways to blend in with your team and get them to let their guard down around you. Then you could sneak around and sap the enemy team's gadgets or perform some good ole fashioned assassinating using the OHK backstabbing mechanic.
The most skilled spies left enemy teams utterly confused and without teleporters or turrets.
I do not know how that would translate into an MMORPG. It would most likely be a mess. But the idea- blending in instead of simply becoming invisible- would be an incredibly fresh take on stealth for the genre.
I had the idea of disguises similar to this for MMORPGs that had thieves, murderers, etc.
As a Skill, Disguise would take up some of the room of Skills, so it had a balancing aspect to it, too.
The Disguise Skill would be needed as the lower skilled character will get caught from time to time, and in a deep game, not only Players but also NPCs would start to know Characters of ill repute.
Disguise would start out as a very general ability to change hair color, add hair length, use fake beards, add weight, etc., per the game involved. The Player could change what they wear (gear, etc.) naturally, no skill there.
Moving up in skill, the Player gains the ability to add specific disguises that can become known as a specific name and re-used. Even the name over their head takes on that name while disguised. At near highest skill, they can impersonate a specific NPC, and eventually, at highest skill, they can take on a disguise of another Player's Character.
The perception Skill.
This requires, for balance and risk, that there is also a Perception ability, and a Skill to boost natural perception. NPC Royal Guards and the like should have this boosted skill too, I think.
I've always wanted Perception to play a role in discovering secret doors and traps and oddments. Not the only way to do so, but an enhanced way.
Such things as magical Polymorphing and items can play a role here too. Especially to impersonate another race that's obviously different in size and weight.
Once upon a time....
Well, the stealth skill takes care of most of that, doesn't it?
Range is a big factor in stealth, I think most games use this.
I don't know about NPCs seeing in the dark, but it should be affected by range too. Unless they have infrared vision and not in lighted spaces.
Remember that with a "natural Perception" ability, including for NPCs, some of that can be made a bit more realistic, too. As in, not noticing a Player in the dark.
"So, in lieu of natural stealth systems, im happy with whatever gamified stuff we get given. At that point, I don't really view it as being stealthy, its just a puzzle to solve. How do I get from A to B without setting off an alarm? What tools have I been given to solve this puzzle?"
I actually love the puzzle aspect. It's very rewarding to accomplish.
I'm not sure that excessive time is good, but time invested, yes.
Except for a place that's supposed to be especially tough.
Wouldn't it be great if there were times where other players are actually very impressed that someone did something? That's pretty rare in gaming. Outside of making a run in record time.
Once upon a time....
Probably no one remembers my AI system, but here's an example that fits this.
5 Players look into a dungeon room, they are in a dark hallway and so far unseen by the 5 tough MOBs in there.
They send in one Player to distract the MOBs. They only send 1 or 2 MOBs after the Player. The rest of the group ambushes those (1 or 2) to gain an advantage on the MOBs.
Once upon a time....
14 damn view on this thread after 8 hours.
Grrr
I'm gonna destroy Earth for this!
Once upon a time....
Also, I really think that movement combined with stealth should require very strong specialization and dedication to work (high level).
In line of sight, as I'm sure you mean (and most games have, I believe). Stealth is a specialized game, or should be. It really deserves better than most games offer.
Every Skill should be looked at this way, if we want better gaming.
Once upon a time....
In fact if I go a bit deeper, each skill would match some kind of minigame. The catch would be that each of them would rely on various player real skill.
Stealth would be for instance about positioning
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
You should give it a try if you haven't already. From my understanding, it's turn-based but includes action timers to create a sense of urgency in analyzing and responding to the challenge ahead. Sounds like it may be your cup of tea.
I agree with this.
The main point I wanted to toss in is this.
I believe most gamers are "bad" at things is because they simply aren't familiar with it. Most people aren't dumb, they just don't know better. And they can learn, and fairly easily, if given the chance.
With that being said, is it good for game companies to coddle them? To make them heroes without the need to improve? I don't think so.
Also, there are many gamers who don't want to spend the time to improve their game play in a more difficult game.
So, I've always felt that a good game does need to offer easier content that they can just go play with. That relaxing stuff where you can pretty safely just whack away at, or stealth around in, or otherwise play your game. If more capable players are there too, it doesn't matter because you're all playing the same way at that point. Easy stuff.
This easy content is also a great way to put in some learning experiences so a player can naturally grow into a better Player in your game.
And I love it when people go off topic. It's stimulating and good for the forum.
Once upon a time....
I'm not sure there's an answer for that. But I think a Stealther can still do some things that involve the deeper skills. Especially if the game has some things like the disappearing dust to get into stealth mode in the middle of things. From there the player has to use his stealth to get behind a MOB and strike. This doesn't have to take too much time at all, if the MOB is close by to start with.
It should be possible to even do that instantly, from in front of, but with some large negative modifiers.
To me, Stealth is in it's glory when other players are not around, or in battle. In a group, the Stealther is the guy that's sent in first to take out (or do big damage) a MOB and change the odds of a coming confrontation.
2 Stealthers is even better for this.
In UO, we used to drop a feather on the ground so that we each knew where the other Stealther had stopped. If you didn't see another feather, you knew your buddy was on the move and just waited.
2 feathers meant that your buddy Stealther was ready to strike.
Once upon a time....
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
As far as the other players, and what they do, this is a problem of games where everyone just wins by design.
They should be grateful that they have these special skills in their group, if the game is set up without auto-win.
What players should be doing is playing along with their Stealther, acting as distractions as you said, and lying in wait to spring the traps that the Stealther sets up for them. Healing them, because there will be times that they need it, and getting their own Surprise Attacks because of them.
I like the idea of all of the subskills, like traps and all.
A game with good Stealth/Thief types, that expands game play and experiences.
And friendships/associations.
It's a different type of game than what they've become.
Once upon a time....
But very interesting.
Once upon a time....
As other‘s suggested a stealth mechanic that reveals you as you come close to your target brings the component of having to constantly reposition yourself into play.
What i would add to that is another radius that is bigger than the „reveal radius“ by quite a margin. That additional radius would inform the opponent with some kind of icon, take care someone is near you in stealth mode.
The opponent would not know your exact location, but has a clear indicator to be cautious and get ready to be jumped any time.
I find these kind of cat and mouse games thrilling, especially if you try to stealth through groups and you manage to juke them. And it gives additional room for counterplay.
What if the opponent gets that icon on screen, in the general direction of a slight sound (with bottom of the screen indicating it's behind them), but they still can't see the stealther?
That icon could have a duration to indicate how well they heard you, too.
There could also be a sound played, a footstep, a shuffle, whatever, as an alarm of sorts. But many gamers like to hear music (game or other), so I'm not sure about that one.
Once upon a time....
ive had years of amazingly fun pvp with stealth in NWN, against other stealth users and ordinary fighting characters. it's an amazing system. keep in mind you can build almost any class with stealth: mages, archers, assassins, barbs etc.
Maybe you guys know some MMOs it worked well in?
I've gone back to UO a few times over the past decade. I just don't enjoy what they've done to it. I am surprised it still runs. I have also tried several community servers. Many claim to be like UO before the trammel cancer hit, but they aren't. None of them. They all have many changes that just ruin the immersion. If not immersion than their choices affect the balance/gameplay. Like sure, I get it. You are hosting the game and want it to be more to your liking. I actually really liked the way it was more though.
Age of Conan had a decent stealth system too. I really enjoyed it on my ranger (I think that was the name of the class). That game was so much fun! It was much easier to move around while stealthed in that game. It was more reliable for actions such as pinging someone with an arrow and then hiding again. I won't lie, I got a lot of kills due to stealth in that game. Unfortunately I couldn't save their heads like in UO!
I miss stealth in games and Id like to see it brought back. Its fun. It can be exciting and create some tense moments.
One of the concessions for stealth they could make with todays graphics are showing foot prints. Think of grass being compressed. They could also add noise. Wearing plate armour? Well its not going to be silent when skulking about!
Also, in regards to some people thinking stealth is hard to implement, I disagree. It doesn't have to lead to griefing. It didn't in UO. Why? Because of the core design of the game. The PK system made it so you werent just going around stealthing and killing. There were skills that made it much easier to detect a person (the skill system in UO was epic). If someone was really good at it someone would also put out a bounty on them. So now you had incentive to hunt that person down! In UO someone always had your number no matter what your build or experience.