Yes, of course the magical effects would be known at some point. But each recipe would be individual. And the grind you talk about is exactly the intended process: a research/discovery one (yes simplified through randomization - after all magic should be chaotic, otherwise it would be a science).
You can also make some effects rarer than others. You can make some so rare that maybe no player will ever find them! (that would be kinda sad but...) Or may be just one or two players would get them !
Imagine you get a spell no one has. May be the community would not even believe you. And after you prove it to them, they would be tempted to call the mods to ban you for cheating ! But the spell being legit, the ban would never come...
WOPs or "speakies" w/e you want to call them (pretty much unarmed wizards) is already a thing and can cast that freaky vine things in the mouth to stop each other casting.
I think my favorite magis system was probably Dungeon Master....We had a set of symbols that we had to remember to get the spell to cast....You had to get better at it for it not to fizzle....I dont remember anyone trying anything like it in a MMO.....Usually those were very simplistic by simply pushing an icon.
I entirely agree. What is missing in magic systems is the experience of how chaotic magic could be and the experimentation side of it.
it doesn't really add much because people, as others have said, will just look up the recipes. So instead its better to just put the spell/recipe in a location so you physically have to go there if you want it. It doesn't matter if you look it up when you still have to go get it. Using the lair machine upgrade process you'll have to "go get it" a few times for each skill/spell to get the most out of them.
Eso did the experimentation thing with alchemy and I didn't find that it added much gameplay. It quickly devolved into a hardcore resource grind unless you looked up the wiki and on multiple characters this process was annoying.
better to treat skills like equipment but with different upgrade paths such as the lair devices and the other options I listed. Then back that up with the library system in your home so all skills can be collected by any of your players and deployed accordingly.
I think for magical experimentation the best thing would be a procedural system with a seed that varies from player to player.
It means that if we both make the same magic formula or if we combine the same ritual ingredients, then we would end with different magical effects.
That would keep magic mysterious and individual with no wikia/forum/discord help possible.
People would still make wiki and know everything you can get.
It would be just people gradually grinding through combinations hoping that this time they get the desired drop.
They could grind it out for a month instead of looking it up in 30 seconds and being at the location in 5 minutes.
These types of web sites, destroy games imho. It is good to have a site that lets you see what may be discovered, but I hate it when they give you step by step instructions.
Discovery is one of the feelings that I'm looking for in an MMORPG.
It's nice to have a site that you can go to, to get you out of a jam every once in a while. I just don't understand why people want to take all the mystery out of a game.
I think my favorite magis system was probably Dungeon Master....We had a set of symbols that we had to remember to get the spell to cast....You had to get better at it for it not to fizzle....I dont remember anyone trying anything like it in a MMO.....Usually those were very simplistic by simply pushing an icon.
I entirely agree. What is missing in magic systems is the experience of how chaotic magic could be and the experimentation side of it.
it doesn't really add much because people, as others have said, will just look up the recipes. So instead its better to just put the spell/recipe in a location so you physically have to go there if you want it. It doesn't matter if you look it up when you still have to go get it. Using the lair machine upgrade process you'll have to "go get it" a few times for each skill/spell to get the most out of them.
Eso did the experimentation thing with alchemy and I didn't find that it added much gameplay. It quickly devolved into a hardcore resource grind unless you looked up the wiki and on multiple characters this process was annoying.
better to treat skills like equipment but with different upgrade paths such as the lair devices and the other options I listed. Then back that up with the library system in your home so all skills can be collected by any of your players and deployed accordingly.
Maybe I badly explained myself, because what you say does not apply.
I restart entirely.
The magic system would be based on components. According to the lore, it could be runes, ritual ingredients, whatever. Let's attribute them a letter from A to Z (but there could be potentially way more than just 26 components).
There would be a magical effect list. Let's say:
- fire ball
- ice spike
- heal
- summon wolf
- teleportation
That is very poor, this is just for the sake of the explanation. A real list would be as lengthy as possible.
Now I am a mage. Let's say I cast a spell, I need to combine 4 components.
I discovered the components from A to H. But not the others from I to Z.
So I use this combination: A A A A
Internally the server makes a calculation from an ID number that was attributed to my character at its creation. This number is unique to my character. The result of this calculation selects the heal spell.
Now, you are also a mage. I tell you : "Hey try A A A A, you are going to get a healing spell. Awesome !"
You try A A A A. You get summon wolf instead. You try again: summon wolf again. Why? Because the number attributed at the character generation is not the same as mine, then your result is not the same either.
It means that even if a website can build, through the global player experience, a list of effects, and announce that the fireball spell is indeed in game, well, you don't know before trying how to cast a fireball. You have to try until you discover it. And you'll probably discover a bunch of other spells in the process!
You are indeed learning magic!
And maybe for me the fireball will be A B C D, but for you it might be D C B A, and for a third fellow it could be G H J K or whatever combination.
Now let's improve the randomization process:
- some effects could be rarer : for instance, you could have only 1% chance to get the teleportation spell. What about an effect that you have only 1 chance out of 1 million to discover?... That effect might never be found and recorded on a website. Still, the possibility would exist and may be one day somebody will discover it... Maybe keeping it as a secret, and using it in a way that others would not understand.
It's magic!
- So each time I do A B C D and you do D C B A we cast a fireball. Great. But it does not mean that our fireballs have to be the same. May be mine goes further and faster, but yours has better damage and area of damage.
In other words, my book of spells will never be the exact same as yours.
Let's improve the spell classifications
- So maybe now you want to be a fire-mage but I want to be a necromancer. You may not want to get the undead spells I crave for, and right now fire-magic does not appeal me much either. So when casting/researching spells, the first component would decide what school of magic your spell would belong to. This way you could orientate your research in the direction you want.
Type of components
Some component could be reused (such as runes, power words, gestures) and some would be consumable (bat blood, leaf of the white tree, tongue of hydra).
The consumable ones would be used for ritual magic which would have way more powerful and lasting effects on the world.
The non consumable ones, would be the classic magic such as:
i get what your saying but do you really want to make systems just to thwart a website. Probably not.
instead make the adventure in getting it and improving it.
x spell is here. Lets go get it. Does it really matter where you got the information about the location?
i much prefer the following scenario:
you go the place that has the spell and you retrieve it. This opens up a path to improve this spell but you need to go to 3 or 4 more places to get the stuff you need to do so.
say there wee 200 unique skills in the game. That's a lot of effort.
i get what your saying but do you really want to make systems just to thwart a website. Probably not.
Indeed. This is more a needed secondary effect.
The main goal is to keep things mysterious and unique as magic should be. The goal is also to simulate to some extent the idea of a mage being a researcher of magic. Finally this idea probably best works in a virtual world with social/organic interactions as opposed to the regular MMOs we generally got.
Why unicity? Several reasons:
- players like it. This is why, they customize their appearance and their build. People want not only to look unique but to be unique.
- being unique allows to create a natural need to group with other players or require their one-time service. Classes tried to achieve this and manage to do it to some extent. But now imagine, you are among the handful of players in a given server that can teleport a group of players, or among the handful of players in a given server that have remote vision. Your services would be very likely and naturally solicited, which would allow you to get some favors in returns... (social/organic interaction => lively world)
- meta-breaker: if my fireball is really different from your fireball (see my previous post) it is way harder to make a meta/FotM build. IMO that would make things way more interesting. My spell combo would likely be not your spell combo.
you go the place that has the spell and you retrieve it. This opens up a
path to improve this spell but you need to go to 3 or 4 more places to
get the stuff you need to do so.
Your first step was in GW1. You would go to a place. Kill a boss. Get its skill. Here, you are complexifying by adding more steps. Basically it is just a grind with choices.
Why not. This is not a bad idea. But according to the meta, people would likely follow the same path. Which is the trend we witness in so many games.
this is why i add a number of paths to improve spells some collection but others just strategy.
the lair machines are kinda like research but gives it a visual quality to it. Something you can interact with and fill up your home. Though there would be different possible results on how you improve it or possible variations of each skill available.
the reagents while optional are very strategic. If you have a reagent that affects multiple skills it could be very useful, more useful than a skill or potion you would have to give up to use them.
likewise getting that hand free and or using multiple cooldowns on a spell will also make it very strategic.
so getting and improving it might not be totally unique but how you deploy it might be a little different depending on your strategy. Combining these all together you have alot of build options and ways to play that can be different from one player to the next.
for instance in my model you get a spell and its usually single target. Adding a reagent or cooldown to it might make it an aoe, adding both might make it aoe with dot.
is it worth it to do so? i dunno. Depends on what your doing. It does allow you to deploy it strategically. Another spell of the same type might have a different path. Instead you get a stronger effect and some kind of de-buff.
How you allocate the reagents and casting cooldowns is up to you but its at least there for you to build on.
this also makes the game run smoother since heavy effects would be more costly than in other games and used more sparingly compared to their single target counterparts.
Comments
It would be just people gradually grinding through combinations hoping that this time they get the desired drop.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Eso did the experimentation thing with alchemy and I didn't find that it added much gameplay. It quickly devolved into a hardcore resource grind unless you looked up the wiki and on multiple characters this process was annoying.
better to treat skills like equipment but with different upgrade paths such as the lair devices and the other options I listed. Then back that up with the library system in your home so all skills can be collected by any of your players and deployed accordingly.
These types of web sites, destroy games imho. It is good to have a site that lets you see what may be discovered, but I hate it when they give you step by step instructions.
Discovery is one of the feelings that I'm looking for in an MMORPG.
It's nice to have a site that you can go to, to get you out of a jam every once in a while. I just don't understand why people want to take all the mystery out of a game.
That is where the boredom begins to start.
imho
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
instead make the adventure in getting it and improving it.
x spell is here. Lets go get it. Does it really matter where you got the information about the location?
i much prefer the following scenario:
you go the place that has the spell and you retrieve it. This opens up a path to improve this spell but you need to go to 3 or 4 more places to get the stuff you need to do so.
say there wee 200 unique skills in the game. That's a lot of effort.
the lair machines are kinda like research but gives it a visual quality to it. Something you can interact with and fill up your home. Though there would be different possible results on how you improve it or possible variations of each skill available.
the reagents while optional are very strategic. If you have a reagent that affects multiple skills it could be very useful, more useful than a skill or potion you would have to give up to use them.
likewise getting that hand free and or using multiple cooldowns on a spell will also make it very strategic.
so getting and improving it might not be totally unique but how you deploy it might be a little different depending on your strategy. Combining these all together you have alot of build options and ways to play that can be different from one player to the next.
for instance in my model you get a spell and its usually single target. Adding a reagent or cooldown to it might make it an aoe, adding both might make it aoe with dot.
is it worth it to do so? i dunno. Depends on what your doing. It does allow you to deploy it strategically. Another spell of the same type might have a different path. Instead you get a stronger effect and some kind of de-buff.
How you allocate the reagents and casting cooldowns is up to you but its at least there for you to build on.
this also makes the game run smoother since heavy effects would be more costly than in other games and used more sparingly compared to their single target counterparts.