... Yet, how many of these new games actually bother to change the way the base game works, even if widely complained about in multiple, public feedback avenues (Steam, reddit, etc.)? There doesn't appear to be even the most rudimentary research done into existing, competing games to see what concerns players...
You imply developers aren't making games they love but simply producing a product they have no personal experience or interest in. If they played the game, loved it but wanted to improve on it then you would see improvement. It's like a fantasy film directed by someone that hasn't even read the novel.
... Yet, how many of these new games actually bother to change the way the base game works, even if widely complained about in multiple, public feedback avenues (Steam, reddit, etc.)? There doesn't appear to be even the most rudimentary research done into existing, competing games to see what concerns players...
You imply developers aren't making games they love but simply producing a product they have no personal experience or interest in. If they played the game, loved it but wanted to improve on it then you would see improvement. It's like a fantasy film directed by someone that hasn't even read the novel.
I think in many cases Devs start out making the game they want. These devs are just completely out of touch from the average customer. They start by making a hard core game PVP game, then as it gets closer to release, start to realize they are going to lose big time, so they hastily add some PVE content to capture the money.
Some games make the transition, most fail miserably.
Its like the film producers making movies for Oscars that nobody even wants to see. They think their customers are like them, but are all completely out of touch.
Probably the overriding thing is whether a game genre is successful. Civilization games are very successful, and have been for decades.
Sure, there are complaints, but to the devs, there are always going to be complaints. Obviously, the complaints aren't bad enough to keep the games from being successful.
So they can make the same mistakes, over and over, and still be successful.
That's what is so odd about NW. The open world full loot PvP genre is not that successful. At least not in the MMO world. Fortnite is, first person shooters are, but not really MMO's. So it's back to my belief that the NW devs weren't trying to develop an MMO, they didn't research MMO's very much.
I think they saw that survival games were doing well, and they wanted a bigger version with more people. But not an MMO.
One thing I left out of my post is that there is (currently) no career path to becoming a game designer. No such thing as an apprentice / junior designer job in a games studio. Literally doesn't exist.
lol, well there is It's just called a QA tester.
Also, you can go to college for game design. Yes, that is an actual major now and most of the schools that offer it, also offer career opportunities upon graduation. There's Full Sail, LA Film School, The Art Institutes, NYU, etc
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
One thing I left out of my post is that there is (currently) no career path to becoming a game designer. No such thing as an apprentice / junior designer job in a games studio. Literally doesn't exist.
lol, well there is It's just called a QA tester.
Also, you can go to college for game design. Yes, that is an actual major now and most of the schools that offer it, also offer career opportunities upon graduation. There's Full Sail, LA Film School, The Art Institutes, NYU, etc
I think this has been a major for more than 20 years now. Many of my childhood friends went through that route, and the ones I still have contact with are doing rather well.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Probably the overriding thing is whether a game genre is successful. Civilization games are very successful, and have been for decades.
Sure, there are complaints, but to the devs, there are always going to be complaints. Obviously, the complaints aren't bad enough to keep the games from being successful.
So they can make the same mistakes, over and over, and still be successful.
That's what is so odd about NW. The open world full loot PvP genre is not that successful. At least not in the MMO world. Fortnite is, first person shooters are, but not really MMO's. So it's back to my belief that the NW devs weren't trying to develop an MMO, they didn't research MMO's very much.
I think they saw that survival games were doing well, and they wanted a bigger version with more people. But not an MMO.
If only it had better graphics…..
I’m sure we’ve all told ourselves that with one game or another.
Couldn’t tell you how much I still wish for a technologically current version of UO. One that included the original subscription plan among other ethical means.
Would it be fun?
Depends on the talents involved and my personal preference.
That's what is so odd about NW. The open world full loot PvP genre is not that successful. At least not in the MMO world. Fortnite is, first person shooters are, but not really MMO's. So it's back to my belief that the NW devs weren't trying to develop an MMO, they didn't research MMO's very much.
Had this conversation with my co-workers when we were making a vampire MMO.
I asked why we were making an open world PVP MMORPG when it's been proven online gamers, specifically MMO gamers didn't care for it. League of Legends - extremely successful at the time of the discussion - was presented as the biggest argument against my stance.
I explained that, in League, everyone starts the match at Level 1. Everyone has access to the same equipment. The cap is easily attainable by every player by the end of the match. Crappy matchmaking systems aside, MOBAs (DOTA, SMITE, LOL) are a level playing field.
I received confused looks by colleagues far more experienced in game dev than I. The responses were similar to (it was over a decade ago, I don't remember verbatim) things like
"So you feel there shouldn't be any persistent progress?"
"Well we feel the open world environment and territory control would build on the team combat experience."
and the line that made me shut my mouth from that point on: "Do you have something against the project?"
So, to your point, I think you may be onto something.
NW seems like an example of trying to develop something that isn't an MMO while wanting to develop an MMO, and mashing the two together as best as possible, despite it being a less-than-stellar combination.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
its pretty clear that when it comes to pvp, players like the "jump in" kind. They dont generally like the grind for a month or worse to compete kind. This is shown cross genre, and with mmo's themselves where pvp is usually not that popular.
I dont really think its fair to compare current development to the past, mainly because who really leads development has changed greatly over the years. You could argue that 10+ years ago, CEOs actually played the products they were producing back then, but now investors and top-bass are more disconnected from the products they are involved in than ever before. You can argue that the only game they really play is investments. Seeing which trains are going and which are stopping soon. This means the product suffers for it and the developers making it take the heat most of the time. Unless you do something about the head of the snake, the other parts will only regenerate over time.
its pretty clear that when it comes to pvp, players like the "jump in" kind. They dont generally like the grind for a month or worse to compete kind. This is shown cross genre, and with mmo's themselves where pvp is usually not that popular.
I've played several MMO's that had successful PvP. Ryzom's PvP was a combination of self-flagging (few did that), and control of special spots that provided special mats. DAOC also had successful PvP, again voluntary and fighting over special spots (keeps, etc). ESO also has successful PvP, again voluntary.
So PvP in an MMO can be successful, if it isn't forced on people, and the rewards for winning fit into the long grind that MMO's are. And PvP isn't the main grind, it's just one voluntary activity that can provide things to help the MMO grind.
I dont really think its fair to compare current development to the past, mainly because who really leads development has changed greatly over the years. You could argue that 10+ years ago, CEOs actually played the products they were producing back then, but now investors and top-bass are more disconnected from the products they are involved in than ever before. You can argue that the only game they really play is investments. Seeing which trains are going and which are stopping soon. This means the product suffers for it and the developers making it take the heat most of the time. Unless you do something about the head of the snake, the other parts will only regenerate over time.
Not game related, but this reminds of when GE bought our CAD company in the early 1980's. I was working for CALMA (bonus points to anybody who knows what that was), when GE bought us.
They sent down a VP of the Small Steam Turbine Division to be our new CEO. He knew nothing about chip design or the chip business.
One thing I left out of my post is that there is (currently) no career path to becoming a game designer. No such thing as an apprentice / junior designer job in a games studio. Literally doesn't exist.
lol, well there is It's just called a QA tester.
Also, you can go to college for game design. Yes, that is an actual major now and most of the schools that offer it, also offer career opportunities upon graduation. There's Full Sail, LA Film School, The Art Institutes, NYU, etc
Being a quality assurance technician for a games studio - which i've done personally - has absolutely nothing to with game design. It is a completely different discipline, therefore not on the same career path.
Joining QA can get you in the door of the games industry, but there is no actual career path from being a tester to becoming a designer. You will have to change career, away from testing, and do something else first. You might become a programmer, or a modeller, or an artist, or an animator, or a producer, or whatever.
Then you need to work you way up that career path, until you reach a point where you are interacting with the actual designers and decision makers. Then if you are very lucky and managed to impress the decision makers, you *may* be able to switch career again and become a game designer.
If you feel like doing a bit of searching around, you will find plenty of articles describing this very thing. GamesIndustry.biz tends to do at least 2 articles a year about how to become a games designer and they all say the same thing: there is no career path. It is a big flaw in the games industry that im sure will be fixed at some point.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr82 Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr6X Shaman
The toxicity isn't just a pvp gaming trope by the looks of things over the last few years.
We seem to lack civility when we socialize and communicate anonymously in pretty much everything. It doesn't seem to matter whether we're killing our enemies in latest version of COD or talking Tulips.
So many forces trying to manipulate us.
When the world started to become "virtual" then I noticed a major change in people....Online anonymity made jerks of alot of people.
I dont really think its fair to compare current development to the past, mainly because who really leads development has changed greatly over the years. You could argue that 10+ years ago, CEOs actually played the products they were producing back then, but now investors and top-bass are more disconnected from the products they are involved in than ever before. You can argue that the only game they really play is investments. Seeing which trains are going and which are stopping soon. This means the product suffers for it and the developers making it take the heat most of the time. Unless you do something about the head of the snake, the other parts will only regenerate over time.
Not game related, but this reminds of when GE bought our CAD company in the early 1980's. I was working for CALMA (bonus points to anybody who knows what that was), when GE bought us.
They sent down a VP of the Small Steam Turbine Division to be our new CEO. He knew nothing about chip design or the chip business.
"A business is a business" they said.
The main reason why I brought this up was because this is EXACTLY what happened to Astellia Online. Their group got taken over by another one that was primarily known for just reshaping businesses to turn a profit. So if something like that is running a mmorpg and profits aren't in the margins they want, then it gets shutdown. Its unfortunate the the games ended up getting shutdown even faster than was mentioned. Thinking back to the old days of Blizzard, most of the guys at the top were gamers at some point so design philosophy was different. I wont be naive in saying that they weren't trying to make a profit back then as well, but I believe they knew that producing a game that gamers would like because it was made by gamers, helped bring the profits they were after at the time.
They don’t think how to make the most fun, they think how to make the most money.
edit:these guys can’t make a game with their own money. They need investors.
Maybe it’s people’s expectations on ROI that is all outa whack and destroying the fun.
There is also the blame we must put on our own expectations in what we expect games to do for us.
You know I just don't buy the argument they making these games solely around money.
If they were making games solely for money, they would be making games for PVE casuals like WoW, FFXIV, ESO, Valheim.
Yet we see over and over them trying to go this niche hardcore PVP route. Failures one after another.
Just look at the Devs for Ark, bankrolling on PVE expansions, then they tell everyone they going to stop making Ark expansions to focus solely on their PVP Atlas game. LOL didn't take long for them to figure out Atlas PVP was dying and back to Ark PVE expansions for the money.
No these Devs want hardcore PVP for some reason. Maybe they dream to bring fortnight crowds to MMO's who knows.
Maybe devs that make PVE casual friendly games have a lessor status within the industry. I don't know exactly what it is, but something is going on and its not about money, because failing constantly is not the best money maker.
They don’t think how to make the most fun, they think how to make the most money.
edit:these guys can’t make a game with their own money. They need investors.
Maybe it’s people’s expectations on ROI that is all outa whack and destroying the fun.
There is also the blame we must put on our own expectations in what we expect games to do for us.
You know I just don't buy the argument they making these games solely around money.
If they were making games solely for money, they would be making games for PVE casuals like WoW, FFXIV, ESO, Valheim.
Yet we see over and over them trying to go this niche hardcore PVP route. Failures one after another.
Just look at the Devs for Ark, bankrolling on PVE expansions, then they tell everyone they going to stop making Ark expansions to focus solely on their PVP Atlas game. LOL didn't take long for them to figure out Atlas PVP was dying and back to Ark PVE expansions for the money.
No these Devs want hardcore PVP for some reason. Maybe they dream to bring fortnight crowds to MMO's who knows.
Maybe devs that make PVE casual friendly games have a lessor status within the industry. I don't know exactly what it is, but something is going on and its not about money, because failing constantly is not the best money maker.
WoW=17 year old FFXIV=9-11 years old-reborn ESO-7 years old with a totally restructured business model
Times have changed a lot since those games released.
Valhiem is a small business with a handful of dev's (5) I believe.
And of course there is always the exception to the norm.
When I say Dev, I'm referring to the Development Team. Everything from the suits and investors down to the go for. The collective unit.
... Yet, how many of these new games actually bother to change the way the base game works, even if widely complained about in multiple, public feedback avenues (Steam, reddit, etc.)? There doesn't appear to be even the most rudimentary research done into existing, competing games to see what concerns players...
You imply developers aren't making games they love but simply producing a product they have no personal experience or interest in. If they played the game, loved it but wanted to improve on it then you would see improvement. It's like a fantasy film directed by someone that hasn't even read the novel.
Let's differentiate between "developers", the programmers and artists that create the games from "suits" who have MBAs and formulae and investors to consult. The developers, aka creators, probably have a desire to make a good, fun game. But they take their orders like the rest of do in life.
The Microsoft acquisition of inXile opened my eyes a bit in the game industry. Brian Fargo admitted that as the head of the company, he was not doing what he loved, creating the games. He was happy to turn the wheel over to people who knew the business side of the industry much better than he did. It makes one think about the hierarchy of gaming studios, doesn't it?
So when most us talk about "the developers", most of us mean "the suits." It would be hard for me to imagine any developer desiring to publish a terrible game
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
When I say Dev, I'm referring to the Development Team. Everything from the suits and investors down to the go for. The collective unit.
Oops! I spoke too soon
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
You could argue that 10+ years ago, CEOs actually played the products they were producing back then, but now investors and top-bass are more disconnected from the products they are involved in than ever before.
I haven't experienced that, though. "Top brass" as you call them, at least for NA/EU MMO, seem to be in touch with development, following the scrums, and present for the vertical slices, internal playtests, and progress of the game.
If we were talking mobile or Asian games, then I'd say you might have something there, but big budget NA/EU studios seem far more connected than you present.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I have actually thought about this very thing a hell of a lot over the years, done my own research into the subject, and even got some first hand insight from a short stint working QA for a games studio in the UK. I arrived at two key reasons for the games industry as a whole, plus a third reason that is more specific to the MMO world.
1) An almost complete lack of scientific research into computer games.
This is the most fundamental reason why so many "mistakes" get repeated. This is an industry of trial-and-error, rather than an industry of understanding and improvement. Most people who work in the games industry lack a fundamental understanding of the purpose of games, what makes them fun or engaging, how to make them appeal to the right people etc.
Close but not really, doesn't have anything to do with scientific research but a lot more to do with lack of maturity in the gaming industry and the brutal nature of the industry. Most software developers and engineers do not stay at gaming companies because of low pay, low benefits and child like culture that goes with them (see EA, Riot & Blizzard). If you are young, right out of college (or high school) those companies seem amazing to work for.. as you get older you realize you can make a lot more money, work a lot less hours and in general have a much higher quality of life somewhere else.
So simply put, the gaming industries retention rate is terrible, as people leave they take that knowledge with them and go work for respectable companies. They are replaced by young developers who might have energy, but have no concept of learning from those before them. This is why the velocity of innovation around game development is at a all time low.
A recent article on New World had this 'observation' from the NW devs:
The devs invited a group of players to give it a whirl, and discovered that they didn’t tackle the game quite as expected. “We were hoping people would go out into the world – and we built this beautiful world that’s very similar to what we have now […] where they could build their own structures, where they could go and fight each other, and really chase each other down, and it was so cool. And that’s not what happened.”
What did happen was a fair bit of “griefing on the beach”, which the devs addressed so new players could join in and enjoy it. Then players started “grief[ing] at the settlement”. So, “now we’re gonna see if we can do opt-in PvP instead of required PvP,” Kaszynski says of the devs’ approach at this point.
.......................... So what is it? Smart people at a company with gobs of cash/resources and access to 20-year history of player behavior in MMORPGs started Alpha 10 the way they did and were surprised by how things went sideways. What causes that, and how can we as players help prevent it from continuing to happen?
Maybe some of the devs think they have a way to curb the griefing, or maybe they enjoy some ffa pvp and don't really want to wake up to just how unpopular it's.
AS for human nature, why griefing and other things happen, maybe Proverbs 26:21"A quarrelsome person starts fights as easily as hot embers light charcoal or fire lights wood."
Comments
Some games make the transition, most fail miserably.
Its like the film producers making movies for Oscars that nobody even wants to see. They think their customers are like them, but are all completely out of touch.
edit:these guys can’t make a game with their own money. They need investors.
Maybe it’s people’s expectations on ROI that is all outa whack and destroying the fun.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
------------
2025: 48 years on the Net.
Also, you can go to college for game design. Yes, that is an actual major now and most of the schools that offer it, also offer career opportunities upon graduation. There's Full Sail, LA Film School, The Art Institutes, NYU, etc
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
I’m sure we’ve all told ourselves that with one game or another.
Couldn’t tell you how much I still wish for a technologically current version of UO. One that included the original subscription plan among other ethical means.
Depends on the talents involved and my personal preference.
Imho
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I asked why we were making an open world PVP MMORPG when it's been proven online gamers, specifically MMO gamers didn't care for it. League of Legends - extremely successful at the time of the discussion - was presented as the biggest argument against my stance.
I explained that, in League, everyone starts the match at Level 1. Everyone has access to the same equipment. The cap is easily attainable by every player by the end of the match. Crappy matchmaking systems aside, MOBAs (DOTA, SMITE, LOL) are a level playing field.
I received confused looks by colleagues far more experienced in game dev than I. The responses were similar to (it was over a decade ago, I don't remember verbatim) things like
- "So you feel there shouldn't be any persistent progress?"
- "Well we feel the open world environment and territory control would build on the team combat experience."
- and the line that made me shut my mouth from that point on:
So, to your point, I think you may be onto something."Do you have something against the project?"
NW seems like an example of trying to develop something that isn't an MMO while wanting to develop an MMO, and mashing the two together as best as possible, despite it being a less-than-stellar combination.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
------------
2025: 48 years on the Net.
------------
2025: 48 years on the Net.
When the world started to become "virtual" then I noticed a major change in people....Online anonymity made jerks of alot of people.
The main reason why I brought this up was because this is EXACTLY what happened to Astellia Online. Their group got taken over by another one that was primarily known for just reshaping businesses to turn a profit. So if something like that is running a mmorpg and profits aren't in the margins they want, then it gets shutdown. Its unfortunate the the games ended up getting shutdown even faster than was mentioned. Thinking back to the old days of Blizzard, most of the guys at the top were gamers at some point so design philosophy was different. I wont be naive in saying that they weren't trying to make a profit back then as well, but I believe they knew that producing a game that gamers would like because it was made by gamers, helped bring the profits they were after at the time.
You know I just don't buy the argument they making these games solely around money.
If they were making games solely for money, they would be making games for PVE casuals like WoW, FFXIV, ESO, Valheim.
Yet we see over and over them trying to go this niche hardcore PVP route. Failures one after another.
Just look at the Devs for Ark, bankrolling on PVE expansions, then they tell everyone they going to stop making Ark expansions to focus solely on their PVP Atlas game. LOL didn't take long for them to figure out Atlas PVP was dying and back to Ark PVE expansions for the money.
No these Devs want hardcore PVP for some reason. Maybe they dream to bring fortnight crowds to MMO's who knows.
Maybe devs that make PVE casual friendly games have a lessor status within the industry. I don't know exactly what it is, but something is going on and its not about money, because failing constantly is not the best money maker.
FFXIV=9-11 years old-reborn
ESO-7 years old with a totally restructured business model
Times have changed a lot since those games released.
Valhiem is a small business with a handful of dev's (5) I believe.
And of course there is always the exception to the norm.
When I say Dev, I'm referring to the Development Team. Everything from the suits and investors down to the go for. The collective unit.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
If we were talking mobile or Asian games, then I'd say you might have something there, but big budget NA/EU studios seem far more connected than you present.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
So simply put, the gaming industries retention rate is terrible, as people leave they take that knowledge with them and go work for respectable companies. They are replaced by young developers who might have energy, but have no concept of learning from those before them. This is why the velocity of innovation around game development is at a all time low.
*Why Was this MMO successful?
*Why Was this MMO a failure?
*Why don't players like this feature?
*Why do players like this feature?
Honestly most developers, including those from successful MMOs don't understand why they were successful. This includes Blizzard as well.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design