The Old Days, The New Days

Scot · July 2021

In the old days articles which were "controversial" were allowed to run for a page or three then closed down. Now they are not even opened for discussion, we understood why they got closed down before; I cannot remember anyone proposing they run and run.

To me this site is all about the good articles which has not changed and the comments which has changed. So I will not now read any articles I cannot comment on, this is not some sort of protest, this is not some sort of sit in or whatever. To me it just seems a logical step; I don't want anyone to do what I am doing, the rest of you may be happy to read about it here and comment elsewhere.

The last time this happened months back. I reposted the sites article and we commented on the article there, I was asked not to do that, so I haven't again. I think if someone tried to precis an article or do their own for the Pub it would get closed down as well and I would agree with them there if we had already had our say in the main article. I respect the decision they have made, but I don't think they realise that once you go start to go done this road, more and more articles will come under the "controversial" heading, a forum thrives on its comments not the lack of them.

KnightFalz · July 2021

Having your say here is a privilege, not a right. I don't see the occasional denial of that privilege logically consistent with a self-imposed constraint on which posts you read.

Regardless, whatever works for you.

Scot · July 2021

I take these points, but I am not sure how pertinent they are. Is this really all about America being a divided society? I think that is way too political and indeed narrow a focus. You can characterise some of the dodgy comments on here like that but all of them? I do agree we have bad actors, but their motivations vary, the old way was to let them vent then shut it down, it did work. Also if you see this as being only about the "other side" I think that is detrimental to finding a solution.

Unless you expect a forum to be a pristine exemplar of order and nicety you are going to expect some bad posts now and then. I realise people can be genuinely offended by what has been said, I do not think that is always overdone, but it is becoming increasingly hard to distinguish the genuine from the drama.

Also I understand MMORPG.com is limited in the amount of time they can adjudicate the forums. But we have gone from them needing to check in once a day and saying "Ok two pages is enough" to stopping any comments at all.

I won't pretend trying to calm posters down always works, but it actually worked better than I thought it would. Don't name posters, talk about "the thread" rather than people.

I understand the desire to see some kickback, but we do see bans, people do get warnings, any kickback is going to be as long as a piece of string, how far do you want them to go? A permeant ban, on the basis of one post, yes I believe in second chances too much, but you can over do it.

Iselin · July 2021

@Scot

You of all people, who spend a lot of your time telling posters to calm down and act like adults should know why articles about gaming companies that broach social subjects, employment conditions or politics have been locked for comment.

There is a crowd of people here who take any opportunity to spout political slogans about the "woke" and "SJWs" and all kinds of far right bias any chance they get.

I'm not even going to pretend that both sides do it because even though some of us who are pissed off by all the trash slogans and grossly insensitive, sometimes racist and often misogynist bile spewed here, will sometimes join in and react, it is most definitely not us doing the derailing that always, without exception, happens in those threads.

I'm not proud of letting my temper suck me in to responding and lashing out but I can't let all the offensive bile spewed here just ride. A personal failing I guess.

@Zegaloth brought up the Witcher TV series.

I was the one who started that thread because I had watched it, liked it and being related to the game, I thought here would be a good place to have a discussion about it... wrong.

All it took was a coupe of posts before Caffynated (remember that racist asshole?) turned it into a rant about how POC had no business being cast for that series because this was all about medieval Poland and they didn't have no stinking POC. Never mind the fact that neither the books, games nor TV series are not set on this Earth, much less Poland.

That thread was locked and I never got to have the discussion about the TV series I wanted to have here because the usual suspects wanted to make it a platform for spouting their hateful political tripe.

There's a crowd here that either doesn't have a normal outlet to discuss their far right politics or they do and still want to constantly inject it into topics here because... I really don't know... so I'll just go with "reasons."

Frankly IMO, It's about time those articles got locked because a large portion of the crowd here don't deserve the opportunity to spew their hateful bile every fucking day on every fucking thread.

Scot · July 2021

I remember the Witcher thread, it went from a need for historical realism which I agreed with up to a point, to only wanting to only see white faces in a fantasy setting. So I do agree with you, it went way too far.

The other thing that often concerns me is we come across too much as a members only club, though I must admit I did not see it as "white dudes". That said I have questioned everything from the colour titles to trying to get us to be more welcoming as a community.

It has always been a tricky balance, I never thought the old way was great, just that it was better than no comments. I do think we will get "controversy" creep, after all a poster can raise a political subject bouncing of just about anything and guys that's not just the ones on the right, it is in my eyes anyone who is sufficiently political and there are a lot of them about on all sides and every which way. Myself included, you don't have to be a "political animal" to go on the occasional rant.

BeansnBread · July 2021

You don't have to be a political animal to go on an occasional rant. But you should have the maturity to recognize that a forum about video games isn't the place to air political grievances.

Dattelis · July 2021

Personally, I dont think commentary is really needed on the Blizzard situation as a whole. Its nice to know how some feel in regards to their personal beliefs in the public domain so you can better connect (or distance) yourself from them, but the posting of articles might serve a different purpose, like keeping people generally informed as to what is happening and how productivity may be impacted going forward. If that's what this site if trying to accomplish, then I have no qualms with them disabling commentary.

Wizardry · July 2021

IDC if a thread gets shut down,it is a statement on it's own that tells the lack of integrity in your journalism.

Anyone could post the definition of "discussion" but it won't matter because in the modern world of gaming it is all about i kiss your ass and you kiss my ass.

At one time journalists were free to write,now they are paid to write what they are told to write.Most of the entire internet is just buisiness,people out making money and should have been obvious 26 years ago when cookies were invented by a Netscape employee.

For years we were told they were to "improve our site experience"among a few other claims nobody was telling the truth.So these websites have been lying for 26 years and funny to still some doing it.

Journailsists used to have a code and if any writer crossed that line he would be blackballed by the internet and other journalists.We do see it but very seldom,example the IGN reviewer who got caught not even reviewing a game but still pretended to ahve done the review.Sasdly after all that a former IGN employee still managed to defend all her former IGN employees,like we should expect any different.My point is that even when proven a real asshat there are white Knights everywhere that are ready to use bleach on the stains.

Now a days very little is what it seems.There is an angle,agenda behind almost everything you read.It might be as simple as click bait or disguised advertising or a shill going about business one way or another.

One thing for certain is that for as long as we have had laws there are people out there trying to get around them or flat out ignore them.

There is a lot more to the bigger picture but i am out of time explaining it all,people can pay attention for themselves.

Slapshot1188 · July 2021

Lets be 100% honest here. People are banned based on people pressing the REPORT button. People do not like to see their perspectives challenged and that is why those threads get shut for commenting. They turn into a contest of who can hit REPORT faster or more frequently. If they didn't we would just end up having a few more people banned each time. Eventually we just whittle down the population further and further. Do I LIKE the fact that they are shut? No. But I 100% understand why. It's self-preservation for the site.

Mendel · July 2021

When @Gdemami is banned, no one laughs.

Scot · July 2021

Sharne said:

Scot said:

In the old days articles which were "controversial" were allowed to run for a page or three then closed down. Now they are not even opened for discussion, we understood why they got closed down before; I cannot remember anyone proposing they run and run.

To me this site is all about the good articles which has not changed and the comments which has changed. So I will not now read any articles I cannot comment on, this is not some sort of protest, this is not some sort of sit in or whatever. To me it just seems a logical step; I don't want anyone to do what I am doing, the rest of you may be happy to read about it here and comment elsewhere.
The last time this happened months back. I reposted the sites article and we commented on the article there, I was asked not to do that, so I haven't again. I think if someone tried to precis an article or do their own for the Pub it would get closed down as well and I would agree with them there if we had already had our say in the main article. I respect the decision they have made, but I don't think they realise that once you go start to go done this road, more and more articles will come under the "controversial" heading, a forum thrives on its comments not the lack of them.

Yeah I tend to agree. I feel that if something is posted up by the mmorpg team, its relevant to games and as such should be open for discussion period.

We may not all agree with some of the people that post here but everyone should be entitled to have their point of view, provided it follows the rules of discussion.

I mean if this is the reason the lol king got banned for discussing his view on females in the work place in the thread started by a guy who went for a job with Blizzard, then its pretty piss poor moderating imho and even though I may not agree with his opinion, I respect his right to have his own opinion. From what I could see of his posts, there was nothing particularly ban worthy in there (unless I missed it, which is of course possible)

As I mentioned the site has problems with such involved moderating. In some ways that's a good thing I remember in that Witcher thread when I said Cavill was a good choice because he is quite wooden and the regime Witchers live by partially removes their emotions it was described as a "back handed compliment". I guess that was not going to go down well with Cavill fans, on another site there might have been complaints! Great series btw, I can only hope Iselin starts another thread when the next series comes out.

That's why I am not saying there is an easy solution, this is devil and the deep blue sea territory but what others see as justified I see as giving up.

The posts from the other guys have opened my eyes to the depth of feeling about this, I had not realised some people were taking this so personally. All I can say is lets treat this like a problem not a war and we may be able to arrive at a better state of affairs.

Not ignoring replies but of till the morrow.

Asm0deus · July 2021

Welp I think you all are over complicating all this.

It's fairly simple and regardless of who you are or political leanings the powers that be here are simply tired of wasting energy on the constant policing and babysitting they need to do in some articles thus they have comments turned off.

Simple as that.

Kyleran · August 2021

Asm0deus said:

Welp I think you all are over complicating all this.

It's fairly simple and regardless of who you are or political leanings the powers that be here are simply tired of wasting energy on the constant policing and babysitting they need to do in some articles thus they have comments turned off.

Simple as that.

So you are saying they are being lazy, taking the shorter route rather than policing the bad apples to remove their more onerous posts.

Well, I guess we get what we pay for.....

Over on MOP they have like 10 articles regarding the Blizzard situation, some with more comments than they ever normally see, yet somehow none of them have been shut down.

Is there a better class of posters over there? Or is their staff better at keeping things under control by being willing to use moderation instead of lockdowns?

Every time a thread is shut down a little something dies that day as the "bad guys" manage to stifle conversation, and this site and apparently some posters in this thread are quite willing to let them do so.

Feels like people would rather yield to the terrorists rather than fight back.

Pity.

Kyleran · August 2021

Slapshot1188 said:

Lets be 100% honest here. People are banned based on people pressing the REPORT button. People do not like to see their perspectives challenged and that is why those threads get shut for commenting. They turn into a contest of who can hit REPORT faster or more frequently. If they didn't we would just end up having a few more people banned each time. Eventually we just whittle down the population further and further. Do I LIKE the fact that they are shut? No. But I 100% understand why. It's self-preservation for the site.

People are banned for saying stupid stuff, whether reported or if a moderator happens to run across their post shouldn't matter.

I think the use of the report button and temp bans are the best method to police forums, much better than shutting conversations totally down.

It's like in order to prevent people from dying in hospitals due to a few bad doctors the solution would be to shut all hospitals down, problem solved, right?

Of course not.

KnightFalz · August 2021

Kyleran said:

Asm0deus said:

Welp I think you all are over complicating all this.

It's fairly simple and regardless of who you are or political leanings the powers that be here are simply tired of wasting energy on the constant policing and babysitting they need to do in some articles thus they have comments turned off.

Simple as that.

So you are saying they are being lazy, taking the shorter route rather than policing the bad apples to remove their more onerous posts.

Well, I guess we get what we pay for.....

While effort can be spent it can also be wasted. When many apples in a particular barrel are bad you dispose of the lot of them. They aren't worth the time and energy to sort, especially when other things need doing.

I expect the same applies here, especially at times when what needs to be sorted overwhelms those available to sort it.

It's better to shut it down when you can't adequately stem the tide.

Po_gg · August 2021

tzervo said:

Kyleran said:

Over on MOP they have like 10 articles regarding the Blizzard situation, some with more comments than they ever normally see, yet somehow none of them have been shut down.

Is there a better class of posters over there? Or is their staff better at keeping things under control by being willing to use moderation instead of lockdowns?

MOP does not have a better class of posters. MOP is well known for deleting comments that do not fit their views and narrative, often even civil and carefully worded ones, while at the same time the posters that do fit their views are free to throw all sorts of ad hominems and insults to opposing voices. You can see that very clearly in the recent trending articles there. I would pick the blocking of comments that happens here over the selective biased moderation censorship and toxicity over there any time.

This is actually why I am commenting here and not there. Not that I ever had any of my comments deleted there when I did, but I had seen comments that I considered perfectly civil being deleted, I got disgusted and left. Sadly I see this here in the past few days too and it worries me, although I try to also be understanding to the site mods trying to keep things under control. Time will tell.

Yep, that's my take on it as well. (however they do have some good class posters, Hikari from old TSW, etc.)

Also it's kinda apples and oranges. MOP is articles-heavy, while mmorpg.com is forum-heavy, or at least that's how I use them.

MOP has some great entries, a lot wider coverage especially on the "underdogs" I play (hard to even remember when was the last time mmorpg.com did a CO or an AoC piece), but it lacks actual conversations. They only have (broadly speaking) a glorified comment section.

(and yep, as tzervo I too almost never post there since years)

On the other hand, mmorpg.com's main value is the forum (again, at least for me). It's maybe the only place where players can have detailed and lengthy conversations about anything MMORPG related, or even beyond.

Sure, there are articles too, some of them even good, but as I've said after one of the site revamps a few years ago, my landing page was set to forums.mmorpg.com, and never changed it back...

I mostly just read the articles from their forum threads' opening post, it's useful they add a link there.

In this sense I agree with Scot's opinion, but I also believe some moderation is indeed needed. The key is to find the fine balance between open discussion and bans/thread locks.

It's a very tough and challenging task, no wonder forums are a dying breed (just as MMORPGs themselves), and reddit with its mob mentality has risen.... much easier to control and moderate, on the "cost" of much lower quality overall, both in discussions as in community.

I just hope mmorpg.com staff finds that balance.

Personally I don't like banned topics, but I don't know anything about the backgrounds, no idea how many of those "bad apples" Knight mentioned the staff has to wrestle on daily basis, so I can't really do more than hoping they won't overdo it at the end.

Scot · August 2021

I did not realise MOP did censorship by stealth, that is worse than stopping the comments on a thread. It allows MOP to create their own narrative from the posters as if the public's will was in line with their own on every issue.

I have to agree with the poster who questioned were all those articles really that MMORPG related? Some were very "gaming industry bubble" and not my main reason for reading the articles on here. But if it's put up we should be able to comment all the same.

Having been in charge of more than one guild forum I know it can be a time sink, and we never had the sorts of posts you get on here. I think in some way without good reason that's how I expect us to be here, colligate not at war.

This is throwing out the barrel because of a few bad apples, even those who fully support the move see them as a minority of posters. We can report, we can block posters, there is moderation on the other threads, to me is that not enough? Clearly for some of you it is not enough and you are fed up to the teeth with what has been happening.

So my way forward is to see if we can make the site a more colligate place, more calm downs not rile ups and hope that feeds through to how the staff perceive posters. That said we can't create a forum utopia and like Slapshot said people do not like their perspectives challenged about anything. But we can at least try.

Scot · August 2021

tzervo said:

Scot said:

I did not realise MOP did censorship by stealth, that is worse than stopping the comments on a thread. It allows MOP to create their own narrative from the posters as if the public's will was in line with their own on every issue.

I have to agree with the poster who questioned were all those articles really that MMORPG related? Some were very "gaming industry bubble" and not my main reason for reading the articles on here. But if it's put up we should be able to comment all the same.

Having been in charge of more than one guild forum I know it can be a time sink, and we never had the sorts of posts you get on here. I think in some way without good reason that's how I expect us to be here, colligate not at war.

This is throwing out the barrel because of a few bad apples, even those who fully support the move see them as a minority of posters. We can report, we can block posters, there is moderation on the other threads, to me is that not enough? Clearly for some of you it is not enough and you are fed up to the teeth with what has been happening.

So my way forward is to see if we can make the site a more colligate place, more calm downs not rile ups and hope that feeds through to how the staff perceive posters. That said we can't create a forum utopia and like Slapshot said people do not like their perspectives challenged about anything. But we can at least try.

MOP does not always do it stealthily. Some times they do, other times they are quite boastful about it.

I totally agree about being colligate (I just learned that word, yay! ) and posting in good faith, but I think having conversations that are heated up from time to time is not that bad, otherwise threads risk becoming too sterile and posters being paranoid about someone getting too touchy-feely. As always, it is a judgement call how much is too much and it is a challenge.

I don't see that as being good either, we don't get staff members on here deleting posts and doing bans and then expecting the posters to praise their actions. It is just part of the job surely? It does sound to me as if they see themselves as being on some sort of moral high ground, that is always dangerous thinking, it allows you to excuse any sort of behaviour on your part.

Slapshot1188 · August 2021

Kyleran said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Lets be 100% honest here. People are banned based on people pressing the REPORT button. People do not like to see their perspectives challenged and that is why those threads get shut for commenting. They turn into a contest of who can hit REPORT faster or more frequently. If they didn't we would just end up having a few more people banned each time. Eventually we just whittle down the population further and further. Do I LIKE the fact that they are shut? No. But I 100% understand why. It's self-preservation for the site.

People are banned for saying stupid stuff, whether reported or if a moderator happens to run across their post shouldn't matter.

I think the use of the report button and temp bans are the best method to police forums, much better than shutting conversations totally down.

It's like in order to prevent people from dying in hospitals due to a few bad doctors the solution would be to shut all hospitals down, problem solved, right?

Of course not.

Not even a close analogy. A better one would be:
In order to stop harm to themselves and their patients a Marriage Councilor does not allow guns in their office.

And side note: It's not always "stupid stuff" that gets people banned. Sure, that's part of it but most often it's people who simply can't accept that other people might feel differently, and feel compelled to try and stop that person from speaking. There's a huge difference between some guy posting racial crap and someone reporting a person because they said bad things about a game they like. And it's also a fact that moderation is highly subjective. Say something that isn't strictly in line with the group-think at MassivelyOP and your comment will be moderated. I much prefer MMORPG and if they need to turn of comments on a couple of articles a year, in order to save themselves the headache of banning their customers then I accept that.

Slapshot1188 · August 2021

Scot said:

I did not realise MOP did censorship by stealth, that is worse than stopping the comments on a thread. It allows MOP to create their own narrative from the posters as if the public's will was in line with their own on every issue.

They definitely do. I will not even read the comments section any more because I watched comment after comment of posters be invisibly deleted. The only time I read the comments is if it's related to Camelot Unchained because for some reason Jacobs used to post over there. It's actually quite ironic now that I think about how Bree handled the Jacobs interview by touting her "journalistic integrity" while at the same time, stealth deleting comments that she disagreed with. That's the scary future we head to in our world, where people (including journalists) feel absolutely justified in censoring what is said, demonizing different viewpoints and controlling all discussion.

Iselin · August 2021

Slapshot1188 said:

That's the scary future we head to in our world, where people (including journalists) feel absolutely justified in censoring what is said, demonizing different viewpoints and controlling all discussion.

You mean just like the old pre-internet world when the only feedback was the "letters to the editor" they cherrypicked and printed?

Slapshot1188 · August 2021

Iselin said:

Slapshot1188 said:

That's the scary future we head to in our world, where people (including journalists) feel absolutely justified in censoring what is said, demonizing different viewpoints and controlling all discussion.

You mean just like the old pre-internet world when the only feedback was the "letters to the editor" they cherrypicked and printed?

I dunno. That somewhat pre-dates me, but my recollection is that many of these Letters published, or at least SOME of them, were rebuttals. I do not recall 100% echo chambers where only letters that agreed were posted but... maybe?

Kyleran · August 2021

Slapshot1188 said:

Scot said:

That's the scary future we head to in our world, where people (including journalists) feel absolutely justified in censoring what is said, demonizing different viewpoints and controlling all discussion.

George Orwell got it almost right, he just was about 30 or so years too early on the timing and mistakenly thought it would be only governments trying to control the narrative

Now, you've brought this up before, how posters are being banned for having opinions about games that others don't like which I honestly don't see.

Usually those posts with strong opinions contain some sort of overly caustic insult or retort which I believe is why they get banned, not because their viewpoint itself was an issue.

People need to learn how to disagree in a civil manner, we all over step the line sometimes on this, often being overly condescending, arrogant or are nauseatingly repetitive in multiple back and forth replies trying to prove our points to others.

Again, the issue is not the report button, but more about the content of the posts or the moderators being either too sensitive or perhaps just too weary from having to keep order on the playground so they sit some folks in the corner.

Most bans these days are not permanent, nor even overly long, if someone disappears for good it's usually by their own personal choice, being whiff about having been moderated.

Iselin · August 2021

Slapshot1188 said:

Iselin said:

Slapshot1188 said:

That's the scary future we head to in our world, where people (including journalists) feel absolutely justified in censoring what is said, demonizing different viewpoints and controlling all discussion.

You mean just like the old pre-internet world when the only feedback was the "letters to the editor" they cherrypicked and printed?

I dunno. That somewhat pre-dates me, but my recollection is that many of these Letters published, or at least SOME of them, were rebuttals. I do not recall 100% echo chambers where only letters that agreed were posted but... maybe?

Totally depended on the newspaper and their editorial policy - some did it with integrity and some didn't but they all did it with either conscious or unconscious editorial bias.

The biggest difference though was that the printed letters were well written and well reasoned more often than not. There were no "You suck. Stick an ice pick in your eye" crazy shit.

These days everyone has a digital megaphone and the percentage of well reasoned speech vs. the lunatic ravings we can't help but hear, I would guess is 1 in 100 or even lower.

I'm tired of sickos and morons screaming their vile ravings in my ear.

Slapshot1188 · August 2021

Iselin said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Iselin said:

Slapshot1188 said:

That's the scary future we head to in our world, where people (including journalists) feel absolutely justified in censoring what is said, demonizing different viewpoints and controlling all discussion.

You mean just like the old pre-internet world when the only feedback was the "letters to the editor" they cherrypicked and printed?

I dunno. That somewhat pre-dates me, but my recollection is that many of these Letters published, or at least SOME of them, were rebuttals. I do not recall 100% echo chambers where only letters that agreed were posted but... maybe?

Totally depended on the newspaper and their editorial policy - some did it with integrity and some didn't but they all did it with either conscious or unconscious editorial bias.

The biggest difference though was that the printed letters were well written and well reasoned more often than not. There were no "You suck. Stick an ice pick in your eye" crazy shit.

These days everyone has a digital megaphone and the percentage of well reasoned speech vs. the lunatic ravings we can't help but hear, I would guess is 1 in 100 or even lower.

I'm tired of sickos and morons screaming their vile ravings in my ear.

Maybe. But the benefit NOW is that on a site like this, with the click of a button you won't ever hear that sicko or moron raving again. I've had to give someone a year long time out. Might do it again. I actually prefer when someone I disagree with starts making moronic statements. Let the world see that raving for themselves. Often the most effective argument is to let someone expose themselves. Maybe I give our fellow posters too much credit but I assume that when someone posts moronic ravings that everyone can see it and that just reinforces the reasons why their argument is wrong. We should ALL be capable of critical thinking.

Scot · August 2021

Iselin said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Iselin said:

Slapshot1188 said:

That's the scary future we head to in our world, where people (including journalists) feel absolutely justified in censoring what is said, demonizing different viewpoints and controlling all discussion.

You mean just like the old pre-internet world when the only feedback was the "letters to the editor" they cherrypicked and printed?

I dunno. That somewhat pre-dates me, but my recollection is that many of these Letters published, or at least SOME of them, were rebuttals. I do not recall 100% echo chambers where only letters that agreed were posted but... maybe?

Totally depended on the newspaper and their editorial policy - some did it with integrity and some didn't but they all did it with either conscious or unconscious editorial bias.

The biggest difference though was that the printed letters were well written and well reasoned more often than not. There were no "You suck. Stick an ice pick in your eye" crazy shit.

These days everyone has a digital megaphone and the percentage of well reasoned speech vs. the lunatic ravings we can't help but hear, I would guess is 1 in 100 or even lower.

I'm tired of sickos and morons screaming their vile ravings in my ear.

I think it very much depends on the newspaper (some still do letters to the editor) or the TV channel when they used to ask for emails if you remember that? You are right, the letters were and are better written.

There are a few reasons for that, age and what has become acceptable today and "free post". Teens did not right letters to the FT, but they are all over social media now and the standards of behaviour we could expect all ages to hold to have fallen. It is not about anonymity, you could send in an anonymous letter, it is about what is seen as acceptable today. That said people did send what were often called "crank letters", but they were rare compared to the deluge we have today. Of course another factor is you had to pay to send a letter, these days you don't online.

Just like we had far less "wxyz" rage on the street we did not get it when people communicated, now we do. Also social media has become the go to place to become indignant, rant, complain and get outraged, a habitual use is already imbedded.

The argument about reasoning with them on here last occurred when we were talking about the pandemic last year I think. I think it worked there, we had a poster telling us that those dying were just part of the normal deaths each year due to respiratory disease. We tore that apart for all to see. That is the way to handle it, but it can start forum wars which start to undermine how rational and reasonable you sound if you are not careful.

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV