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(Blockchain) So some of you hate the idea of...

bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,349
edited June 11 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
OWNING the hard earned loot you've a worked lifetime for.



Post edited by bcbully on
Catibrie
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  • mklinicmklinic Member RarePosts: 1,767
    Haven't really bought in on either "for or against" view and am curious: What is the practical value of "owning" loot? Does it have any value outside the scope of the game? If the game later shuts down does that ownership mean anything anymore or is it just a reminder of a game you used to play? 

    The idea of "owning" (and I imagine the ability to transfer ownership of) a digital thing, based on my current idea of what that means, isn't really a big selling point for me. I don't really intend to be an early adopter on this stuff, so it's not something I've really dug into and my current understanding may just be flawed. That said, it's a relatively new thing in gaming and I am casually curious to see what ends up being the "winning" implementation of the concepts.
    UngoodKyleran

    -mklinic

    "There's a point I think we're missing.
    It's in the air we raise our fists in."
    -from Behind Closed Doors by Rise Against

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,349
    edited June 11
    Nice post.

    Does it have any value outside the scope of the game?

    Yes, real dollar value. The minting process inhearently gives value to the NFT (item). There is a cost. That value derives from the platform the nft was minted on, the app/game (eco system) the nft exist in, and sentiment. 

    If the game later shuts down does that ownership mean anything anymore or is it just a reminder of a game you used to play?

    A reminder that stil holds value real value and can still be traded just like a baseball card. For as long as you hold the keys.


    mklinicGdemamiKyleranCatibrieFTrunks21KalafaxLordMikeBedlam
  • Tuor7Tuor7 Member UncommonPosts: 956
    ^ And that is the main reason why I want nothing to do with it. Once you start going that route, the boundary between what is "real" and purely virtual becomes blurred. And once you start talking about something having real value, our beloved government begins to take an interest. 

    I don't want anything in my games to be associated with real value. 
    MendelGdemamiKyleranFTrunks21LordMikeBedlam
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,351
    Tuor7 said:
    ^ And that is the main reason why I want nothing to do with it. Once you start going that route, the boundary between what is "real" and purely virtual becomes blurred. And once you start talking about something having real value, our beloved government begins to take an interest. 

    I don't want anything in my games to be associated with real value. 
    Never thought of that before, maybe governments will start taxing NFTs land you would with owning RL land? Its like the start of the internet, its the wild wild west again.  
    GdemamibcbullyKyleranSlapshot1188Catibrie
  • Tuor7Tuor7 Member UncommonPosts: 956
    Nanfoodle said:
    Tuor7 said:
    ^ And that is the main reason why I want nothing to do with it. Once you start going that route, the boundary between what is "real" and purely virtual becomes blurred. And once you start talking about something having real value, our beloved government begins to take an interest. 

    I don't want anything in my games to be associated with real value. 
    Never thought of that before, maybe governments will start taxing NFTs land you would with owning RL land? Its like the start of the internet, its the wild wild west again.  
    Various governments have looked into the feasibility of taxing certain transactions before, but the lack of RL value has kept them at bay. But, if virtual items begin having RL value that is retained outside of the game and can be transferred... well, taxation and/or regulation won't be far behind. 
    GdemamibcbullyNanfoodleKyleranCatibrieAsm0deus
  • mklinicmklinic Member RarePosts: 1,767
    bcbully said:
    If the game later shuts down does that ownership mean anything anymore or is it just a reminder of a game you used to play?

    A reminder that still holds value real value and can still be traded just like a baseball card. For as long as you hold the keys.
    I don't know if that analogy is selling it to me. I have soooo many old baseball cards that are worth pretty much nothing...:(

    Kidding aside, I suppose, as with anything, the idea of monetary value assumes that there is someone willing to buy your item. I'd think a game would have to be a cultural phenomenon for items to retain their value for any meaningful amount of time post-closure. That's just speculation though...

    Interesting points though and @Tuor7 raises an interesting one as well, but then; We went without (U.S.) sales tax on the Internet for a good amount of time so there'll probably be a pretty good grace period before they come around to taxing these transactions.

    As more games with this technology come out, I'm sure I'll end up trying one. For me, I think the asset ownership is a bit of an afterthought as the first requirement be that the game actually be fun/engaging for me since that's why I'm there in the first place.
    bcbully

    -mklinic

    "There's a point I think we're missing.
    It's in the air we raise our fists in."
    -from Behind Closed Doors by Rise Against

  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,202
    mklinic said:
    bcbully said:
    If the game later shuts down does that ownership mean anything anymore or is it just a reminder of a game you used to play?

    A reminder that still holds value real value and can still be traded just like a baseball card. For as long as you hold the keys.
    I don't know if that analogy is selling it to me. I have soooo many old baseball cards that are worth pretty much nothing...:(

    Kidding aside, I suppose, as with anything, the idea of monetary value assumes that there is someone willing to buy your item. I'd think a game would have to be a cultural phenomenon for items to retain their value for any meaningful amount of time post-closure. That's just speculation though...

    Interesting points though and @Tuor7 raises an interesting one as well, but then; We went without (U.S.) sales tax on the Internet for a good amount of time so there'll probably be a pretty good grace period before they come around to taxing these transactions.

    As more games with this technology come out, I'm sure I'll end up trying one. For me, I think the asset ownership is a bit of an afterthought as the first requirement be that the game actually be fun/engaging for me since that's why I'm there in the first place.
     Dude, old baseball cards are worth a ton right now. The value has exploded. You should retake a look at them. 
    UngoodbcbullyKyleranCatibrie
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • Tuor7Tuor7 Member UncommonPosts: 956
    How long it takes before they start taxing it depends a lot on who is defending the practice. The Internet has a lot of big hitters protecting it.  I doubt that those pushing bitchain can muster anything close to that level of support.  Maybe they'll get more time than I expect.  We'll see. 
    Gdemami
  • mklinicmklinic Member RarePosts: 1,767
     Dude, old baseball cards are worth a ton right now. The value has exploded. You should retake a look at them. 
    Well damn. Shooting holes in my response already. Alright then! Time to cash in on those Jose Canseco rookie cards!
    Tuor7bcbullyKyleran

    -mklinic

    "There's a point I think we're missing.
    It's in the air we raise our fists in."
    -from Behind Closed Doors by Rise Against

  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,202
    Honestly, it is a smart idea. Im a get into these blockchain games.

    If i liquidate all my entropia shit, i think i can get close to 8 to 9 k usd. Not bad for a video game. Of course i put in about 5k. 

    What can i get back from starcraft or civ 5?

    The problem is, when i play entropia too much, i start to convert real life usd into game currency. Do i really want to buy that drink? It is $2 at the store but 20 project entropia dollars lol
    bcbullyKyleranCatibrie
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 1,869
    Nothing about my leisure activity is work nevermind a lifetime of it, and none of it is done with material benefit in mind. I have no desire to cloud those waters.
    UngoodKyleranachesomaChampieTuor7Sovrath
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,461
    edited June 11
    I can burn my baseball cards if I so desire. I 100% own them. I don’t have to agree to a ToS or a EULA

    This digital shit, you own fuck all, remember that.
    Post edited by laserit on
    bcbullyGdemamiKyleranUngoodTuor7

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,966
    edited June 11
    bcbully said:
    Nice post.

    Does it have any value outside the scope of the game?

    Yes, real dollar value. The minting process inhearently gives value to the NFT (item). There is a cost. That value derives from the platform the nft was minted on, the app/game (eco system) the nft exist in, and sentiment. 

    If the game later shuts down does that ownership mean anything anymore or is it just a reminder of a game you used to play?

    A reminder that stil holds value real value and can still be traded just like a baseball card. For as long as you hold the keys.


    Not all blockchain games spend anything to mint an NFT. There are places you can mint NFT's for free too, if you wanted to. 

    It's also important to note that with blockchain, there's the potential that a game won't "shut down" even if traditional development ends. As long as someone is mining the blockchain, the game will continue.

    As to what ownership means, it depends on what kind of gamer you are, and what kind of game you're playing. 

    There are blockchain games in development where you don't have to do anything outside of the game, in crypto wallets and what not. I think that's part of why people are so hesitant to buy into the whole blockchain thing. In some cases because some blockchain games hit you over the head with "buy, own, sell" instead of starting with, "Hey this game is a real game and fun to play." 
    bcbullyKyleranUngoodChampieCatibrie



  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,998
    Whilst I am slowing becoming a believer in the power of blockchain technology, and I do invest and trade crypto-currencies, the idea of "owning" my digital loot does nothing for me.

    I prefer my real life money and my games to be as disconnected as possible. Whether it's buy2play or subscription, I love knowing that absolutely every player is in exactly the same boat and the amount of money we all spend is exactly the same and we all get exactly the same access. This is why I don't play F2P games and have never spent a penny on anything in any cash shops.



    I also feel that introducing money into everyday gameplay - whether that is earning money through mining, or selling my items, or buying from a cash shop - would change my motivation and would change the way I think about gaming. I play games to have fun, to escape from the real world, so bringing the real world back into the game through monetisation would piss me off.



    On the plus side, if everything in game can be sold for real life money, then companies like EA can fuck right off on the whole "surprise mechanics" shit. It would definitely fall within the category of regulated gambling!
    GdemamiMendelbcbullyKyleran
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,202
    mklinic said:
     Dude, old baseball cards are worth a ton right now. The value has exploded. You should retake a look at them. 
    Well damn. Shooting holes in my response already. Alright then! Time to cash in on those Jose Canseco rookie cards!
    https://www.oldsportscards.com/jose-canseco-baseball-cards/

    Top ten most valuable jose canseco cards. He was my favorite player growing up. Still love the guy. 
    bcbullyCatibrie
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • mklinicmklinic Member RarePosts: 1,767
    mklinic said:
     Dude, old baseball cards are worth a ton right now. The value has exploded. You should retake a look at them. 
    Well damn. Shooting holes in my response already. Alright then! Time to cash in on those Jose Canseco rookie cards!
    https://www.oldsportscards.com/jose-canseco-baseball-cards/

    Top ten most valuable jose canseco cards. He was my favorite player growing up. Still love the guy. 
    Yeah, not so sure about that article. Plenty of M/NM Canseco rookie cards on ebay for about $4-5 it seems..

    At any rate, it started as a joke, but now you've got me honestly curious about current card values so I'm going to have to pull them out and take a look. Not that I'll end up selling or anything, but it'd be fun to see how well (or not) the collection has aged.

    That'd probably be how I would treat digital assets as well. More of a 'trip down memory lane' then something I'd intend to sell. I have a better understanding of the value people see in the technology now, just that those reasons don't really resonate with me at this time.

    Great thing is though: All it'll really take is a fun game to bring me around. :)
    Cryomatrix

    -mklinic

    "There's a point I think we're missing.
    It's in the air we raise our fists in."
    -from Behind Closed Doors by Rise Against

  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,864
    edited June 11
    bcbully said:
    Nice post.

    Does it have any value outside the scope of the game?

    Yes, real dollar value. The minting process inhearently gives value to the NFT (item). There is a cost. That value derives from the platform the nft was minted on, the app/game (eco system) the nft exist in, and sentiment. 

    If the game later shuts down does that ownership mean anything anymore or is it just a reminder of a game you used to play?

    A reminder that stil holds value real value and can still be traded just like a baseball card. For as long as you hold the keys.
    Value is not created by how much an item costs to make. It's created by how much someone is ready to buy the item for, regardless of whether it costs anything to make or not.

    Value can also at any time cease if no-one is willing to buy the item any more. Which is what I suspect will happen items in blockchain games if a game shuts down. Because let's be real here: Who of us would want to buy loot for WildStar? Or Earth and Beyond? Or any other shutdown game?
    Sovrath
     
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,542
    As far as ownership, I have too few real items to be worrying about virtual items.  And pretty much, if I don't own a virtual item but had it, I'll check my password security (again).

    How much would you pay for a +1 sword in a game?  What if that +1 sword had a verified history of being victorious in 20 dragon raids?  What's it worth then?

    Knowing the story of an item is worth nothing to me. Specifically, knowing the history another player made with an item isn't interesting to me.  If I want one, I'll get one if possible.  If not, I'll find something else.  Pay for it?  Forget it.



    ChampieGdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,894
    I'm not against owning items in game but whether or not I could would not be a consideration in deciding to play.

    It's all just a technicality in my book, there are games without block chain which permit players to sell their assets so I'm not seeing this as any big revolution.

    I'm not interested at all in doing "mining" which apparently is a foundational premise behind this concept or so I've read or been told.

    If other people want to do it great, no objections from me, go for it 

    Oh, I won't be doing this either.


    laseritNanfoodleCatibrieGdemami

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,351
    Mendel said:
    As far as ownership, I have too few real items to be worrying about virtual items.  And pretty much, if I don't own a virtual item but had it, I'll check my password security (again).

    How much would you pay for a +1 sword in a game?  What if that +1 sword had a verified history of being victorious in 20 dragon raids?  What's it worth then?

    Knowing the story of an item is worth nothing to me. Specifically, knowing the history another player made with an item isn't interesting to me.  If I want one, I'll get one if possible.  If not, I'll find something else.  Pay for it?  Forget it.



    I have been waiting for someone to say something like this to poise two questions. 

    If you earned that sword in game just for playing and after playing the game for 5 years, that history on that sword was every raid boss you killed and that sword became to be worth 1.7 million.

    Would you object then? Would you sell that sword for RL money? 
    Catibrie
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,815
    Ya know.

    One of the things I loved about a lot of the games I played in the past, was I liked the STUFF. I liked having lots of the toys, the dice, books, maps, figures, even with MtG cards, I owned the card, I could do what I wanted with it. I could burn it, sell it, trade it, do whatever I wanted, it was my card.

    So the idea of something becoming Mine, is kinda cool.

    Now I say Kinda, because lets be honest, it's not physical, it's digital, so my ownership is in the abstract sense, not the physical one.

    Ideally however, I don't see the actual advantage for me, the player, in using Blockchain, as opposed to what is currently available, and that is kinda where I am at right now.

    It's not that I am against it, I simply do not see how this is better.

    Kinda like when my brother was talking to me about Metric, yah, we here in the states, don't live on the Metric System, anyway, so my brother tells me all about the wonderful advantages of Metric vs Standard.

    So I ask him. "What's the actual advantage, are things more accurate? Is a Centimeter a more or less accurate measurement than an inch?" 

    The end result is, the answer is no.

    They are both very standardized, they both have the same accuracy, so, there is no tangible advantage to using metric over standard, or, vice verse, Standard is not better than Metric. 

    The actual advantage is that Metric is a Decimal System, and Standard uses all kinds of fuckery that requires tons of mental math, and given how stupid we are here in America you would think we would want an easy system like the Metric Decimal system where everything is divided by 10, as opposed to needing to know it's 16 ounces to the pound, but 12 inches to the foot, and 4 quarts to the gallon and 126 gallons to the buttload.

    but.. as I go to the store to buy 13 feet of electrical wire, to finish putting up my giant Halloween skeleton just to piss off my neighbor, I realized I am comfortable with this silly nonsensical Standard measurement system, and thus, don't feel the need to convert my life to Metric, because at the end of the day, for me at least, there is no tangible benefit, 6 of one half a meter of the other as it where.

    Which is how I am looking at this Blockchain.

    Ok, sure, it might become the future of gaming, but is there an advantage to it, enough so, that I would want to give up on what I enjoy already to give it a go?
    KyleranGdemami
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,474
    Careful what you wish for.  The Taxman comes and he is looking at this stuff with very hungry eyes.   They will tax it as you earn it and then tax it as you spend it.

    Personally,  I just want to play a game.

    CatibrieGdemamiTuor7MendelAsm0deus

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,658
    A lot of pie in the sky horseshit with exorbitant $ numbers being thrown around (especially by Nan :) )

    I can see only three cases where that "real value" has any meaning and only two of those have meaning from a gaming perspective:

    1. The item grows and improves with use. I could care less if Joe Blow killed 3,000 raid bosses with it, but if the item improved with each subsequent boss kill, now you have something I might be interested in for that game.
    2. The item can be taken with you to other games, That can only happen if the various game publishers agree to allow it... and they will only allow it if there is a profit for them in allowing an external asset into their game. I don't see that happening except maybe in games under the same publisher's umbrella and even then, isn't it more profitable for them to start you off naked and getting you to collect good items for that new game all over again?
    3. You collect doo-dahs and get a thrill, a non gaming thrill, from owning something made famous by someone else. Personally I'm a gamer and not a collector and have 0 interest in owning Joe Blow's famous sword that I can't use in any game I play.

    Did I miss anything?
    laseritKyleranCatibrieGdemami
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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,085
    Typically the TOS will tell you all you need to know about NOT trusting these kind of operations.
    There will be lots of wording to tell you that they are not responsible for your losses but can ban you for any reason any time and you lose everything etc etc.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,461
    This is probably more about the developer using your computer and your electric bill to mine crypto while you play some mediocre game. 
    CryomatrixChampieGdemami

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

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