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EVE Community Needs a good old fashion Beat Down

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  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 6,028
    tzervo said:
    Ungood said:
    So has Comparing the population of B2P, F2P, and Sub Based Games, but, here you are, doing just that.

    And for the record, Trove, like EvE, Albinon, DDO, and a slew of other MMO's, also has its own launcher, so, using their steam numbers as a baseline to get a feel for their comparative populations, is not as disingenuous as it seems.
    Agree with the first paragraph, if you are looking for more than a single population number (i.e. "quality" of the population). Good point. Still, population numbers are a number that you can compare with some accuracy, and they do carry some importance. The other thing you could see is revenue and how large studios are (how many employees they can sustain).

    Steam numbers as a baseline are dangerous for drawing conclusions and depend heavily on the game. For example EVE right now shows ~40k concurrent players. Out of those only ~6k play on Steam (I literally just launched the client to check).
    I never said Steam gave the correct population, I said if gave gave a baseline for comparative populations.

    IE: You could use the Steam Numbers toi see which game might have more active players in it, and which games might be more successful.

    However, there is a point of contention on that, as older games, like EvE and DDO, might not have the Steam Population that newer games have, so, that would need to be taken into consideration.

    But it could still serve to give an idea of popularity/population disparity between the games.
    Gdemami
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,646
    edited October 2020
    Ungood said:
    I never said Steam gave the correct population, I said if gave gave a baseline for comparative populations.

    IE: You could use the Steam Numbers toi see which game might have more active players in it, and which games might be more successful.

    However, there is a point of contention on that, as older games, like EvE and DDO, might not have the Steam Population that newer games have, so, that would need to be taken into consideration.

    But it could still serve to give an idea of popularity/population disparity between the games.
    I gave a real, current example where the difference between native client and Steam is 700%. Almost an order of magnitude. That's a horrible baseline to use to:

    - compare to anything (your bolded "population comparison" could easily give you the opposite result from reality by far) 
    - draw conclusions (a game is a failure)
    - or even get an idea about (your "idea of population disparity" could be up to 700% off from reality).
    Post edited by tzervo on
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 6,028
    tzervo said:
    Ungood said:
    I never said Steam gave the correct population, I said if gave gave a baseline for comparative populations.

    IE: You could use the Steam Numbers toi see which game might have more active players in it, and which games might be more successful.

    However, there is a point of contention on that, as older games, like EvE and DDO, might not have the Steam Population that newer games have, so, that would need to be taken into consideration.

    But it could still serve to give an idea of popularity/population disparity between the games.
    I gave a real, current example where the difference between native client and Steam is 700%. Almost an order of magnitude. That's a horrible baseline to use to:

    - compare to anything (your bolded "population comparison" could easily give you the opposite result from reality by far) 
    - draw conclusions (a game is a failure)
    - or even get an idea about (your "idea of population disparity" could be up to 700% off from reality).
    I would find it hard to believe that there could be 700% less people logged into the game than Steam says are playing currently.. LOL!

    But.. 15% of the population being logged into Steam for older MMO's, seems about right all things said and done.

    Anyway, none of this changes that OW PVP MMO's are at best small time players, even if they have gotten more hype than some of the big MMO's on the market. Simply put, they do not have the appeal.

    Now, if you want to cry that they are not failures, you can do that, but that does not change the fact they are still all swimming in the kiddie pool with the other MMO's (PvE and PvP alike), that never quite made it to the big time.

    Tell ya what, when you get a winner, then you can tell them they were all not failures.
    Gdemami
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,646
    edited October 2020
    Ungood said:
    I would find it hard to believe that there could be 700% less people logged into the game than Steam says are playing currently.. LOL!
    Only that's not what I said. When real life examples, even with numbers, don't work with you, I know I'm done. You either can't or don't want to understand and twist my words in bad faith. Feel free to believe what you will.
    Post edited by tzervo on
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,029
    More recent open world FFA PvP games will be reflected in terms of the stats more accurately than older games like Eve. Eve launched on a different platform for years and years. Naturally the steam figures are far lower.

    Trends however can be reflected by a sample size of a population. That is something that can be gauged by using steam stats.
    UngoodGdemamikitarad
    Chamber of Chains
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,646
    edited October 2020
    cheyane said:
    More recent open world FFA PvP games will be reflected in terms of the stats more accurately than older games like Eve. Eve launched on a different platform for years and years. Naturally the steam figures are far lower.

    Trends however can be reflected by a sample size of a population. That is something that can be gauged by using steam stats.
    Albion was launched in 2016. It has an upward trend as shown in the links I shared that is not reflected in the Steam charts and also a huge disparity between Steam and native client, even though many players came in after the Steam launch.

    https://massivelyop.com/2020/09/14/albion-online-touts-continued-population-growth-in-september-and-work-on-new-features/

    I don't disagree that many times what you say is true. But it is unreliable, especially when using it to back bold claims.
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 6,028
    edited October 2020
    tzervo said:
    cheyane said:
    More recent open world FFA PvP games will be reflected in terms of the stats more accurately than older games like Eve. Eve launched on a different platform for years and years. Naturally the steam figures are far lower.

    Trends however can be reflected by a sample size of a population. That is something that can be gauged by using steam stats.
    Albion was launched in 2016. It has an upward trend as shown in the links I shared that is not reflected in the Steam charts and also a huge disparity between Steam and native client, even though many players came in after the Steam launch.
    Let me help you out.

    This what Albinon says about their population.

    https://albiononline.com/en/news/population-update-may-2020

    This is what another site says:

    https://mmo-population.com/r/albiononline

    Now.. Ok.. Ok.. Looks good.. right. And I think you were saying something about how it rivals EvE, right?

    This is Eve's Numbers. By the same site.

    https://mmo-population.com/r/Eve

    Even has not given me any full numbers on their official site, just active log ins.

    But.. by the numbers, EvE has near to 5 times as many as Albinon.

    Now lets see what Trove says about their Numbers, you know, the game you called a PvE failure.

    Right from the Company itself.

    https://www.trionworlds.com/trove/en/game/faq/#:~:text=Trove is played by nearly,and regions around the world.

    How popular is Trove?
    Trove is played by nearly 10 million players across 4 different platforms and in more than 100 countries and regions around the world.

    Ok.. so.. Umm yah.. Trove says 10 million players, 4 platforms, 100 countries, can't find any other source of numbers outside Steam Charts.

    So.. what shall we do.. Shall I just flaunt Troves 10 million to Albinon 100K and Eve's 500K, and soff that you think such low ballers hold a candle to Trove?

    I mean really.. what are the choices here?
    Gdemami
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,646
    edited October 2020
    I gave official numbers, you give dodgy sites. And you kerp giving incomparable numbers. And I did not call Trove a PVE failure, I called it a mid sized success. You keep twisting my words. Please stop doing that.
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,646
    tzervo said:
    But those numbers and trends are not numbers of a failed game, they are numbers of a successful mid sized MMO, same as many other games outside of the big four, like Trove, E:D etc. Saying that every OW PVP MMO game is a failure shows just petty hatred towards PVP games and grasping at straws.

  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 479
    edited April 8
    My experience in Eve is that the community is extremely helpful. They love giving advice and helping people learn the game. Sometimes maybe too helpful, sending money, ships, etc..  They'll open private chats to give you direct advice apart from the "noise" of the public chat channels.

    So, assuming your allegations are true (which I'm doubtful of), and people really were being that hostile to you, I would bet a month's pay it was a response to hostility from  you.

    Because, what I've also learned about the Eve community.. As quick as they are to be helpful to someone who's cool and polite and asking in good faith, they don't tolerate  people who carry on like jerks. 

    I'd like to see your comments in the chat from that session. I have a feeling it wouldn't show you as the victim you're portraying to be here.
    tzervoGdemami
  • CuddleheartCuddleheart Member UncommonPosts: 391
    Ya, Eve's player base is kinda a drag.  Although, the real question is...

    What full PvP MMO that never stops scaling up as you sink money and time into it doesn't have an intolerable player base that abuses all players who aren't in the 'cool kids club'? 

    You gotta be a glutton for punishment to get into something like Archeage, Eve, or Darkfall at this point in the game.
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,646
    edited April 8
    My experience in Eve is that the community is extremely helpful. They love giving advice and helping people learn the game. Sometimes maybe too helpful, sending money, ships, etc..  They'll open private chats to give you direct advice apart from the "noise" of the public chat channels.
    Yep. I got excellent advice and/or some fun, amicable banter when asking many times, even from people that killed me first. As long as you acknowledge that this is part of the game by design and you are not a jerk, most EVE players are fine.

    People tend to conflate players that play the game normally (i.e. kill other players - it is a full loot open world PVP game after all) with jerks and griefers.
    KyleranQuarterStack
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,232
    Ya, Eve's player base is kinda a drag.  Although, the real question is...

    What full PvP MMO that never stops scaling up as you sink money and time into it doesn't have an intolerable player base that abuses all players who aren't in the 'cool kids club'? 

    You gotta be a glutton for punishment to get into something like Archeage, Eve, or Darkfall at this point in the game.
    EVEs not like those other two as there are definitely skill caps which eventually balance everyone out for a particular activity, just not all activities.


    tzervo

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member RarePosts: 839
    Kyleran said:
    Ya, Eve's player base is kinda a drag.  Although, the real question is...

    What full PvP MMO that never stops scaling up as you sink money and time into it doesn't have an intolerable player base that abuses all players who aren't in the 'cool kids club'? 

    You gotta be a glutton for punishment to get into something like Archeage, Eve, or Darkfall at this point in the game.
    EVEs not like those other two as there are definitely skill caps which eventually balance everyone out for a particular activity, just not all activities.


    I definitely wouldn't play EVE seriously, as a PVP player, or out of high sec space (pretty safe from pvp)... with out joining a Corp (aka guild).  Same for other Full Loot MMORPGs.

    You can be a lonewolf...  that's cool... but odds are stacked against you.
    SovrathGdemami
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 8,449
    edited April 8
    "I got a Notice that I needed to Up Grade my Weapons and when I tried to Do so following the games tutorial I was soon overwhelmed with useless information and I wasn't able to find the weapons that had to be removed and replaced and when I asked for Help in the Chat Forum I was following the instructions and my Ship was Consequently attacked and Destroyed while I was simply trying to get some Knowledge to help me continue."

    Longest sentence without any punctuation ever?

    On the serious side though, I had similar issues when trying Eve....I dont remember the tutorial being all that difficult, but I do remember how terrible the chat was.....The players were just brutal...I felt like I was in prison while listening to some of them.....TO me, games like Eve only bring out the worst in people.
    Gdemami
  • CuddleheartCuddleheart Member UncommonPosts: 391
    Kyleran said:
    Ya, Eve's player base is kinda a drag.  Although, the real question is...

    What full PvP MMO that never stops scaling up as you sink money and time into it doesn't have an intolerable player base that abuses all players who aren't in the 'cool kids club'? 

    You gotta be a glutton for punishment to get into something like Archeage, Eve, or Darkfall at this point in the game.
    EVEs not like those other two as there are definitely skill caps which eventually balance everyone out for a particular activity, just not all activities.


    I definitely wouldn't play EVE seriously, as a PVP player, or out of high sec space (pretty safe from pvp)... with out joining a Corp (aka guild).  Same for other Full Loot MMORPGs.

    You can be a lonewolf...  that's cool... but odds are stacked against you.
    It doesn't matter.  If you're not a pirate, you're meat.  Every attempt I've made to get into this game(i.e. actually play losec), I end up getting suicide bombed by gankers or something.  Even if you do fight back, you lose sec points.


    Gdemami
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,646
    It doesn't matter.  If you're not a pirate, you're meat.  
    Or a stealthy explorer. Or a rich industrialist/trader. Who said the real game is only in low sec.
    TwistedSister77Kyleran
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 479
    tzervo said:
    My experience in Eve is that the community is extremely helpful. They love giving advice and helping people learn the game. Sometimes maybe too helpful, sending money, ships, etc..  They'll open private chats to give you direct advice apart from the "noise" of the public chat channels.
    Yep. I got excellent advice and/or some fun, amicable banter when asking many times, even from people that killed me first. As long as you acknowledge that this is part of the game by design and you are not a jerk, most EVE players are fine.

    People tend to conflate players that play the game normally (i.e. kill other players - it is a full loot open world PVP game after all) with jerks and griefers.
    "Giving advice after killing another player" is something I hear about a lot. 

    Like you said, as long as the victim isn't a jerk about it, and takes it in stride.

    I've heard of folks ending up invited to Corps under the same circumstances.

    Personality goes a long way.
    Kylerantzervo
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 479
    edited April 8

    It doesn't matter.  If you're not a pirate, you're meat.  Every attempt I've made to get into this game(i.e. actually play losec), I end up getting suicide bombed by gankers or something.  Even if you do fight back, you lose sec points.



    Yes, that can happen. But it's not as pervasive as you (and others) make it sound.

    PvP is part of the game. Every time you leave a station, you're opening yourself to being PK'd by someone. It's not guaranteed to happen.. but it can, and that should be expected.

    I was gate-ganked in a 0.6 sec area for crying out loud. Nearly the last place I'd expect it to happen.. but there you go.

    Meanwhile, I've seen plenty of people on Twitch - where they're open to sniping - spend hours solo roaming without incident. The fights they ended up in, many times, are those they instigate. 

    A big part of it is knowing the map, knowing where you're more or less likely to get jumped, etc. That kind of knowledge comes with time.

    If you ("you" meaning in general) can't deal with being killed in a game where that's part of the gameplay, then you (again, in general) shouldn't be playing Eve, or any other open PvP MMO.

    This is something about all PvP MMOs that I don't get. People go into a MMO that's advertised as being open world PvP. They understand what this means - or claim to. And then complain when they're PK'd.  It's like going into a vegetarian restaurant - knowing it's vegetarian only - and then complaining and saying the restaurant sucks when they don't see steak on the menu.
    KylerantzervoGdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,232
    tzervo said:
    It doesn't matter.  If you're not a pirate, you're meat.  
    Or a stealthy explorer. Or a rich industrialist/trader. Who said the real game is only in low sec.
    In fact I would caution most players to steer clear of low sec until they gain a very good understanding of the game mechanics, definitely one of the most challenging environments to thrive in.

    Null sec is a much better alternative for those looking to get a more PVP oriented experience without being prey to others or even their own folly by not understanding all of the nuances required to survive.

    As mentioned above, do not try to go it alone, EVE is a much better game when played with like minded allies, even if they are low life pirates and gankers.

    ;)


    tzervoQuarterStackGdemami

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • thelawoflogicthelawoflogic Member UncommonPosts: 766
    Eve is fun when you have friends to play with 
    Gdemami
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