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Ashes of Creation's Combat Revamp Won't Complete Until After Alpha One | MMORPG.com

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,902
    elc8745 said:


    Most businesses that could take a PPP loan, took one.

    Link?
    Gdemami

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,474
    elc8745 said:
    Whether it's fully funded or not has nothing to do with a PPP loan. Costs of the business could have increased during the pandemic. Productivity could have decreased, which could potentially increase costs and future costs. Any number of other factors I'm not going to sit here and think about.

    Most businesses that could take a PPP loan, took one.

    I think you have a different understanding of Fully Funded than most people.  What you are describing is quite literally a situation where they are NOT fully funded and thus need help.   

    And that’s fine.  If he was going to have to lay off people because he could not pay them, well that’s what the loans were designed for.  But if that is the case let’s stop the “Fully Funded” charade and admit they are on the same funding precipice as their other crowdfunded peers.

    KyleranGdemami

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  • elc8745elc8745 Member UncommonPosts: 29
    I have no idea if it's actually fully funded or not. All I know is what the company has said. What they said could be true, "partially" true (as in they thought it was fully funded but conditions changed) or just a straight up lie. Who knows.

    In all three of those cases though, I'd expect them to take a PPP loan, if allowed. Especially if the competition was taking them. There have been stories that have come out about companies that fibbed some on the applications and whatnot. Maybe Intrepid did too.

    I think whether the game is fully funded or not is fair game to raise questions about. Intrepid stated it was and if it's not anymore, that's a valid question.

    And I see why you tie the PPP loan into that question, I see your logic, kinda. But I don't exactly see what the loan has to do with it. Conditions changed. They weren't working in the studio, everyone was working from home, no collaboration. Productivity decreased per worker as a result and Intrepid maybe would have fired some employees because of the uncertainty. That's a logical explanation. Don't know if its true. Intrepid might get audited if it appears they hustled the system.
    tzervo
  • elc8745elc8745 Member UncommonPosts: 29
    "Across all 50 states, 72 percent to 96 percent of estimated small business payroll was covered by PPP loans."

    https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/2020-07/PPP Results - Sunday FINAL.pdf
    tzervoGdemami
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,474
    edited May 5
    elc8745 said:
    "Across all 50 states, 72 percent to 96 percent of estimated small business payroll was covered by PPP loans."

    https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/2020-07/PPP Results - Sunday FINAL.pdf
    What percent of those businesses are retail where they were literally closed for months or a year?  The goal was to make up for the lack of sales and allow companies to keep employees on their payroll instead of laying them off enmasse and to help companies pay bills that would have forced their closure due to the lack of revenue.

    So again, if what they signed was true and that they would have had to lay staff off without the loan, then great, that's what it was for.  But that ends the "Fully Funded" myth for good.


    Also do not lose sight of the sheer amount of the loans either.  The median loan was <$50k 
    These guys got over $2.5 MILLION...  
    Gdemami

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,296
    edited May 5
    elc8745 said:
    "Across all 50 states, 72 percent to 96 percent of estimated small business payroll was covered by PPP loans."

    https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/2020-07/PPP Results - Sunday FINAL.pdf
    What percent of those businesses are retail where they were literally closed for months or a year?  The goal was to make up for the lack of sales and allow companies to keep employees on their payroll instead of laying them off enmasse and to help companies pay bills that would have forced their closure due to the lack of revenue.

    So again, if what they signed was true and that they would have had to lay staff off without the loan, then great, that's what it was for.  But that ends the "Fully Funded" myth for good.


    Also do not lose sight of the sheer amount of the loans either.  The median loan was <$50k 
    These guys got over $2.5 MILLION...  
    In 2020 it is estimated the UK lost £3.5 Billion in fraudulent claims and mis-payments, I can only assume in the US with a bigger economy that figure would be even higher.

    To give you some perspective that would pay for the annual budget of our Government's FCO and about half of Defra's.
    tzervoGdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,902
    elc8745 said:
    "Across all 50 states, 72 percent to 96 percent of estimated small business payroll was covered by PPP loans."

    https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/2020-07/PPP Results - Sunday FINAL.pdf
    Thanks, but now I'm really sad / angry knowing l have to help pay for all of that.
    tzervoGdemami

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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  • elc8745elc8745 Member UncommonPosts: 29
    I'd like to know why Intrepid got so much in loans and if it was warranted. I'd like to know a lot more than that about the way money is just flying around in this country and who's getting it. But that's just our broken country. Some businesses got PPP loans that weren't deserved I'm sure. Same as some companies get government contracts, some people get welfare, some companies and state & local govts. get bailouts, that aren't deserved.

    I don't think it ends the fully funded assertion outright. But it was always a dubious claim to make. Steven Sharif said he put in upwards of 40 million of his own money and that the core game would be funded by that. Whether that's true that he put that amount in or not, who knows. But even if it is true, there's no way HE could know if that 40 million would be enough to finish the core game in the first place. Because as we all know, game development usually goes over budget and over schedule.

    The only way we'd ever know for sure is if we see a full breakdown of all the costs of the game, and exactly what cost what, after it's all said and done and launched. I'm not holding my breath for that full breakdown.


    tzervo
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,474
    elc8745 said:
    I'd like to know why Intrepid got so much in loans and if it was warranted. I'd like to know a lot more than that about the way money is just flying around in this country and who's getting it. But that's just our broken country. Some businesses got PPP loans that weren't deserved I'm sure. Same as some companies get government contracts, some people get welfare, some companies and state & local govts. get bailouts, that aren't deserved.

    I don't think it ends the fully funded assertion outright. But it was always a dubious claim to make. Steven Sharif said he put in upwards of 40 million of his own money and that the core game would be funded by that. Whether that's true that he put that amount in or not, who knows. But even if it is true, there's no way HE could know if that 40 million would be enough to finish the core game in the first place. Because as we all know, game development usually goes over budget and over schedule.

    The only way we'd ever know for sure is if we see a full breakdown of all the costs of the game, and exactly what cost what, after it's all said and done and launched. I'm not holding my breath for that full breakdown.


    Actually, it does literally end the fully-funded assertion.  You cannot both be fully funded AND need external money to prevent laying off employees.

    Also, I believe if you actually look that you will find that Stephen never actually says he PUT $30M (let alone $40M) into the game, just that he could...

    Here is the quote that is most frequently misinterpreted and thus gave birth to the self-funded myth:

    "The project is being funded by myself currently. This is going to be a bigger game, content-wise, than Crowfall, and our budget and funding reflects that. A core viable build that includes all the features discussed about the game will take roughly $30 million to complete. The Kickstarter and any other crowdfunding we might engage in is intended to add to that budget, for additional scope on certain systems we intend to reveal throughout development."

    But I haven't followed closely.  If you have a quote where he says he actually PUT IN $40M of his own money then I'd be happy to re-evaluate.
    Gdemami

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  • elc8745elc8745 Member UncommonPosts: 29
    I've seen 30 million and 40 million said in various places, but I couldn't begin to tell you where I saw each.

    Whichever it is, 30 or 40, when he made that statement it may have been fully funded, or what he thought was fully funded...it's all kind of subjective in the first place. But you can imagine a scenario where a pandemic hits, your office is locked down and closed for a year plus, and how that might affect the financial math that was originally done to declare it fully funded.

    So the point being, PPP loans don't mean the game was NEVER fully funded. He made the statement that it was fully funded before the worst worldwide pandemic since 1918. Conditions changed dramatically after the pandemic started.

    We just don't know. There's no way for us to know. I'm quoting off shoddy memory right now, but I think they made like 3-4 million off the kickstarter. And I think they've made several million more from cosmetics sales.

    So when the game launches, because of that other fundraising, if Steven's own personal cost is only like 10 million for instance, but he's going around saying he's out of pocket 30 million...that'd be pretty shady. But how the heck are we supposed to know.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,474
    edited May 5
    “So the point being, PPP loans don't mean the game was NEVER fully funded”

    Right.  But that’s not what I said.  I said they are not fully funded.  Meaning once they accepted the loan under the statement that it was to protect jobs, from that point there is no question that they are not fully funded.

    Whether they ever were is open to debate, but I have yet to ever see a clear and direct statement  from Stephen saying he actually put in $30M and I have directly asked him that before.  I have no doubt that when he made the quote above that he was fully self-funded at that time as it was pre-Kickstarter or just as it ended. Probably a million or so invested.   But over time people have taken that quote, and applied it to the budget as some statement that he put in $30M.  To date I have never found anything to support that.  I will keep searching...

    Regardless of what may have gone before, if you are taking over $2M in emergency loans to prevent layoffs, you are now in the same boat as every other Crowdfunded game.  And all those boats are taking on water.  It’s just a matter of if they can bail fast enough to reach land.
    Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
    KyleranGdemami

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  • elc8745elc8745 Member UncommonPosts: 29
    They can still be fully funded while firing workers during a pandemic due to remote working and reduced productivity.

    Intrepid could make the argument that this is a creative project, it requires in person collaboration and we are not able to do that because our entire state is locked down. So, even though we're fully funded, we're going to cut some staff because we're only getting 75% productivity working remote versus in office. This will negatively impact our finance and business plan going forward.

    In other words, we're not going to waste our full funding on 75% productivity. We're going to layoff some people to cut losses during this difficult time, to remain on track of being fully funded in the future, when conditions return to normal.

    Oh what's that? You'll give us a loan to not fire some of the 75% productivity workers? Ok, we'll take it.

    It's just a false argument. The PPP loan has nothing to do with whether they were fully funded. It has everything to do with the company was getting less return on it's labor costs in the form of reduced productivity. No business is just going to eat that loss when they have the option to not eat it.
    Gdemami
  • elc8745elc8745 Member UncommonPosts: 29
    Your better issue is did Steven Sharif ever put 30 million of his own money into the project. Or will he ever. I would not be surprised one way or the other. It's something he should be pressed on, especially if a sizable amount of people care about it.
    Gdemami
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,474
    edited May 5
    elc8745 said:
    They can still be fully funded while firing workers during a pandemic due to remote working and reduced productivity.

    Intrepid could make the argument that this is a creative project, it requires in person collaboration and we are not able to do that because our entire state is locked down. So, even though we're fully funded, we're going to cut some staff because we're only getting 75% productivity working remote versus in office. This will negatively impact our finance and business plan going forward.

    In other words, we're not going to waste our full funding on 75% productivity. We're going to layoff some people to cut losses during this difficult time, to remain on track of being fully funded in the future, when conditions return to normal.

    Oh what's that? You'll give us a loan to not fire some of the 75% productivity workers? Ok, we'll take it.

    It's just a false argument. The PPP loan has nothing to do with whether they were fully funded. It has everything to do with the company was getting less return on it's labor costs in the form of reduced productivity. No business is just going to eat that loss when they have the option to not eat it.
    That's simply not true.  At all. But no need to go in circles.  Just note that what I showed was an actual FACT with the very statement that they had to sign, while the response was pure hypothetical maybe they this, maybe they that...

    Gdemami

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,474
    elc8745 said:
    Your better issue is did Steven Sharif ever put 30 million of his own money into the project. Or will he ever. I would not be surprised one way or the other. It's something he should be pressed on, especially if a sizable amount of people care about it.
    I did press him when he engaged on these forums.  He dodged and never answered.  To the best of my knowledge he has never personally said that he put $30M of his own money in.  He very carefully wordsmithed the quote I showed above to allow people to assume that he did.  But his words were clearly: "It's being funded by myself currently." Which was the very beginning stage prior to all the hiring.  He then goes and gives a budget of $30M which people have mistakenly put together as though he actually put $30M into the project (or maybe even more).  He certainly MAY have, but there is no evidence of that, and that is not what he stated.

    It would be cool if one of the diehard streamers like @jahlon asked him that question live on a stream and actually pressed for an answer.  My suspicion is that if the question was asked it would be while laughing to which Stephen would give a non-answer, which would also be laughed about and then moved on.


    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

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  • elc8745elc8745 Member UncommonPosts: 29
    Well you saying they're not fully funded isn't a fact either. You're just saying it. We don't know. That's the point. I can talk about "maybes" because there ARE maybes.

    You stated that because Intrepid took PPP loans, that means they're not fully funded. And that's just as potentially wrong as anything I said. BECAUSE WE DONT KNOW LOL.

    As far as the 30 million, again who knows. I agree it would be good for someone to nail him down on it one day. He probably wouldn't just put the whole 30 million up up front. He'd add it as needed to the company account. So who knows how much or how little he's put in.

    But that's why I responded to this thread. People in the thread were making statements as facts that they literally could not know to actually be a fact.

        "Right.  But that’s not what I said.  I said they are not fully funded.  Meaning once they accepted the loan under the statement that it was to protect jobs, from that point there is no question that they are not fully funded."

    There IS still a question. Because of the maybes. Because of the things we don't know. I don't need to explain it all again. If you can't understand that the pandemic had negative financial consequences for many businesses and that that made them eligible for government loans, regardless of their own internal financial situation, then there's just nothing left to say to you about it, circles indeed.



  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,474
    elc8745 said:
     If you can't understand that the pandemic had negative financial consequences for many businesses and that that made them eligible for government loans, regardless of their own internal financial situation, then there's just nothing left to say to you about it, circles indeed.



    You keep saying things I haven't said and ignoring actual and factual statements they had to make.  But that's OK.  To each their own.  At the end of the day all that will matter is if they deliver a fun experience and unless they delay yet again, that NDA should drop soon.

    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

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  • elc8745elc8745 Member UncommonPosts: 29
    What I mean by "regardless of their own internal financial situation," in regards to Intrepid at least...it probably didn't matter whether their project was fully funded. What mattered was were they taking losses or losses in productivity that might incline them to lay people off.
  • elc8745elc8745 Member UncommonPosts: 29
    Yeah I predicted that that line was what you were going to go after after I re read my post. Was already typing up the clarification.
  • elc8745elc8745 Member UncommonPosts: 29
    I'm not ignoring facts. A business owner had no obligation to insert personal funds in order to avoid the reality of:

    "Current economic uncertainty makes this loan request necessary to support the ongoing operations of the Applicant."

    Steven Sharif had no obligation to the government to make up covid related loss using personal funds. He was well within his right to apply for the loan given the conditions. Same as "72-96%" of other businesses.

    For simplicity's sake, Steven puts in 30 mil. Covid happens. Productivity dives 25%. He doesn't HAVE to make up for that loss with his own funds. He applied for the loans to offset that loss same as everyone else that wanted to.
  • elc8745elc8745 Member UncommonPosts: 29
    If your point is that he took government assistance when he really didn't technically have to, welcome to America. It's what we do, and it's just going to get worse until the whole thing blows up.
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,888
    Does anyone know the details of this combat revamp? That sounds a lot like what we heard from other kickstarters like CU and Pantheon, and in CU's case it seems to have set the project back four years or more.
    tzervo
    ....
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,474
    YashaX said:
    Does anyone know the details of this combat revamp? That sounds a lot like what we heard from other kickstarters like CU and Pantheon, and in CU's case it seems to have set the project back four years or more.
    What I have heard is that it is related to their concept of allowing Twitch and click combat.  Despite being told that the Apocalypse Battle Arena side game was going to help, it seems they are still stumped with how to make these two combat systems work together so neither has an advantage.

    YashaXScot

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,296
    YashaX said:
    Does anyone know the details of this combat revamp? That sounds a lot like what we heard from other kickstarters like CU and Pantheon, and in CU's case it seems to have set the project back four years or more.
    What I have heard is that it is related to their concept of allowing Twitch and click combat.  Despite being told that the Apocalypse Battle Arena side game was going to help, it seems they are still stumped with how to make these two combat systems work together so neither has an advantage.

    They are trying to get those two combat systems to work together? Why do they think that is even needed? This is creating a rod for your own back.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,474
    Scot said:
    YashaX said:
    Does anyone know the details of this combat revamp? That sounds a lot like what we heard from other kickstarters like CU and Pantheon, and in CU's case it seems to have set the project back four years or more.
    What I have heard is that it is related to their concept of allowing Twitch and click combat.  Despite being told that the Apocalypse Battle Arena side game was going to help, it seems they are still stumped with how to make these two combat systems work together so neither has an advantage.

    They are trying to get those two combat systems to work together? Why do they think that is even needed? This is creating a rod for your own back.
    That has always been their plan as far as I know and a major source of skepticism.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat_targeting

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