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Mars_OMGMars_OMG Member EpicPosts: 3,504
- abandoning social media could possibly save the world.  
#RestoreTheSnyderVerse 
FTrunks21KyleranWalkinGlennIselin

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,945
    WalkinGlenntzervoTheocritusAsheramlaxieMars_OMG

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,871
    Soon you'll have the privilege of buying special stuff with real money again. Provided to you by RSI.

    Kyleran
     
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,328
    edited May 1
    Being able to check out the Javelin interiors for the first time  is deff something to check in for, that's a gigantic capital ship.

    So it's free from May 22nd to June 3rd, with every ship flyable with this event. Good for anyone who was wondering to try it, no need to buy it.
    WalkinGlennMars_OMGGrindcoreTHRALL
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,130
    edited May 1
    Would be nice if you could actually design/build your own ship and feel some satisfaction of owning it.Just buying it is the equivalent of some sports team just buying the trophy or a boxer going out and buying his own belt to put around his waist.

    You should feel some immersion playing the game,like you setup a shop,maybe hire a npc or two to work in the shop and begin the process of gathering materials,using a forge and creating the HULL to begin building this ship.

    There would be different areas to search for different materials ,differrent hubs/towns to trade your wares,you know to actually create a plausible WORLD isntead of auto generated land surfaces to fly over in your PRE MADE ....PURCHASED from soem magical store in the sky.....PIXEL SHIP.



    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,670
    "Individuals commit the sunk cost fallacy when they continue a behavior or endeavor as a result of previously invested resources (time, money or effort) (Arkes & Blumer, 1985). This fallacy, which is related to loss aversion and status quo bias, can also be viewed as bias resulting from an ongoing commitment."


    Good read.

    KyleranMendel
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,130
    Buying ships instead of EARNING them is like walking into a dungeon and just paying $10 to auto kill the Boss.

    It is like you never have loot drop in a game,you just buy it.So no Boss killing,no loot,hey while we are at it don't bother even playing the game,here give me another $500 and you just WIN,yep your the winner,no need wasting any time pvping or sparking up the internet just pay me and YOU WIN !!1.
    Scot

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,046
    Wizardry said:
    Just buying it is the equivalent of some sports team just





    TIL wiz owns a sports team
  • olepiolepi Member RarePosts: 1,611
    MaxBacon said:
    ...
    Good for anyone who was wondering to try it, no need to buy it.
    Just to be clear, you cannot "buy" Star Citizen. There is no product for sale.

    You can donate or "pledge" money in hopes of a future release of a game. If no game releases, you don't get your money back.

    You can play whatever they have at the moment, but you cannot buy it.

    ------------
    2021: 44 years on the Net.


  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,328
    olepi said:
    MaxBacon said:
    ...
    Good for anyone who was wondering to try it, no need to buy it.
    Just to be clear, you cannot "buy" Star Citizen. There is no product for sale.

    You can donate or "pledge" money in hopes of a future release of a game. If no game releases, you don't get your money back.

    You can play whatever they have at the moment, but you cannot buy it.

    That's technically not correct, what they are selling is the game "as is", they are not selling you a release date, if you decide to get it now it's your choice. It is under the same terms as a steam early access game, getting it "as is on the moment you bought it".
    mmolouKyleranWalkinGlennSandmanjw
  • olepiolepi Member RarePosts: 1,611
    edited May 1
    MaxBacon said:
    olepi said:
    MaxBacon said:
    ...
    Good for anyone who was wondering to try it, no need to buy it.
    Just to be clear, you cannot "buy" Star Citizen. There is no product for sale.

    You can donate or "pledge" money in hopes of a future release of a game. If no game releases, you don't get your money back.

    You can play whatever they have at the moment, but you cannot buy it.

    That's technically not correct, what they are selling is the game "as is", they are not selling you a release date, if you decide to get it now it's your choice. It is under the same terms as a steam early access game, getting it "as is on the moment you bought it".

    Not quite. If you check the website, they make it clear that you are making a donation, a pledge, not a purchase.

    "RSI is conducting a crowdfunding campaign to support the development of the Game and the related RSI Services. You do not purchase anything, you make a pledge towards the development of the Game and the other RSI Services.


    Please read this clause carefully to understand the differences between crowdfunding and a purchase."


    TorvalSandmanjw

    ------------
    2021: 44 years on the Net.


  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,328
    edited May 1
    olepi said:
    Not quite. If you check the website. they make it clear that you are making a donation, a pledge, not a purchase.

    "RSI is conducting a crowdfunding campaign to support the development of the Game and the related RSI Services. You do not purchase anything, you make a pledge towards the development of the Game and the other RSI Services."

    Yep, and under the same terms you agree when pledging, they deliver the product they have as is. As this terminology conflicts with the technical way crowdfunding has to have the legal aspect of being sold as product, not as a donation, so it pays the same taxes, it's that same old discussion that applies to kickstarter projects but it does not change the point here.

    What they deliver you is the game as is the moment you bought it, obv entitled to all the updates they keep doing and such. If you pledge now, what I meant is you are not pledging for "this is the release date and these are the features it'll have", no future garantees there hence the "as is".
    mmolouKyleranSandmanjw
  • olepiolepi Member RarePosts: 1,611
    edited May 1
    MaxBacon said:
    olepi said:
    Not quite. If you check the website. they make it clear that you are making a donation, a pledge, not a purchase.

    "RSI is conducting a crowdfunding campaign to support the development of the Game and the related RSI Services. You do not purchase anything, you make a pledge towards the development of the Game and the other RSI Services."

    Yep, and under the same terms you agree when pledging, they deliver the product they have as is. As this terminology conflicts with the technical way crowdfunding has to have the legal aspect of being sold as product, not as a donation, so it pays the same taxes, it's that same old discussion that applies to kickstarter projects but it does not change the point here.

    What they deliver you is the game as is the moment you bought it, obv entitled to all the updates they keep doing and such. If you pledge now, what I meant is you are not pledging for "this is the release date and these are the features it'll have".

    I don't know enough about legal procedures to know what the real differences are.


    All I know is that RSI makes it very clear that you are not purchasing anything, for reasons probably too complicated for me to understand.

    So as an engineer, I have to take exception when somebody says to "buy" SC, when RSI makes it totally clear it is not a purchase, and they are not selling anything.

    To me, it seems more like a paid alpha test, where you can pay to play whatever they have, but there is no guarantee of a game being released.
    mmolou

    ------------
    2021: 44 years on the Net.


  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,328
    edited May 1
    olepi said:
    I don't know enough about legal procedures to know what the real differences are.


    Al I know is that RSI makes it very clear that you are not purchasing anything, for reasons probably too complicated for me to understand.

    So as an engineer, I have to take exception when somebody says to "buy" SC, when RSI makes it totally clear it is not a purchase, and they are not selling anything.

    To me, it seems more like a paid alpha test, where you can pay to play whatever they have, but there is no guarantee of a game being released.
    What I said works with both scenarios of how you decide to understand it, be "buying" or "pledging/donating", what you are getting in return is already defined there, that is the product as is on the moment you got it. Because SC is considered a live service (excluding the SP campaign obviously), the major difference is mostly the fact progress is not permanent and gets wiped from what would be indeed an already released product (tho not even that is very guaranteed this days as far online MMOs go). How complete/optimized/buggy is kinda of a situation that happens on both the released/in-dev sides of the coin as we're surely aware of, depending on how a developer likes to paint it.
    mmolou
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,945
    olepi said:
    MaxBacon said:
    olepi said:
    Not quite. If you check the website. they make it clear that you are making a donation, a pledge, not a purchase.

    "RSI is conducting a crowdfunding campaign to support the development of the Game and the related RSI Services. You do not purchase anything, you make a pledge towards the development of the Game and the other RSI Services."

    Yep, and under the same terms you agree when pledging, they deliver the product they have as is. As this terminology conflicts with the technical way crowdfunding has to have the legal aspect of being sold as product, not as a donation, so it pays the same taxes, it's that same old discussion that applies to kickstarter projects but it does not change the point here.

    What they deliver you is the game as is the moment you bought it, obv entitled to all the updates they keep doing and such. If you pledge now, what I meant is you are not pledging for "this is the release date and these are the features it'll have".

    I don't know enough about legal procedures to know what the real differences are.


    All I know is that RSI makes it very clear that you are not purchasing anything, for reasons probably too complicated for me to understand.

    So as an engineer, I have to take exception when somebody says to "buy" SC, when RSI makes it totally clear it is not a purchase, and they are not selling anything.

    To me, it seems more like a paid alpha test, where you can pay to play whatever they have, but there is no guarantee of a game being released.
    While I agree with your view on crowd funding I think it's only a matter of time before some governing body is asked to rule on what exactly s donation is or not.



    Hmm, wonder if I could include my crowd funding contributions on my IRS 1040 under "donations."

    Probably not since normally such efforts are commercial ventures and not registered charities.

    Pity
    tzervoMendel

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,328
    edited May 1
    Kyleran said:
    While I agree with your view on crowd funding I think it's only a matter of time before some governing body is asked to rule on what exactly s donation is or not.

    Hmm, wonder if I could include my crowd funding contributions on my IRS 1040 under "donations."

    Probably not since normally such efforts are commercial ventures and not registered charities.

    Pity
    It already is legally a product that is sold, as you can pledge for a kickstarter project but the taxes over products are not being waivered under "its a donation".

    What kickstarter isn't because of it, is a pre-order platform, that's why by the company terms will apply at the end on what's disclaimed/liabilities/etc.

    This is why Valve did with steam early access the whole clear thing that you buy "as is" not "as it will be" for WIP titles (so not a pre-order of the intended final product); this is how SC puts its own terms too. Crowdfunding wise it applies under the same terms as every other of the type, nobody really pulls off the "its a donation" legally, or places like KS would have been ez outlawed by now xD
    tzervo
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,555
    MaxBacon said:
    olepi said:
    Not quite. If you check the website. they make it clear that you are making a donation, a pledge, not a purchase.

    "RSI is conducting a crowdfunding campaign to support the development of the Game and the related RSI Services. You do not purchase anything, you make a pledge towards the development of the Game and the other RSI Services."

    Yep, and under the same terms you agree when pledging, they deliver the product they have as is. As this terminology conflicts with the technical way crowdfunding has to have the legal aspect of being sold as product, not as a donation, so it pays the same taxes, it's that same old discussion that applies to kickstarter projects but it does not change the point here.

    What they deliver you is the game as is the moment you bought it, obv entitled to all the updates they keep doing and such. If you pledge now, what I meant is you are not pledging for "this is the release date and these are the features it'll have", no future garantees there hence the "as is".

    And pledging does not guarantee that, if the day ever comes that they complete this project, you will actually own the game or be able to continue tinkering with the 'as is' state.  What RSI donation/pledge language does is keep the possibility of them shutting everyone out (including all pre-completion assets) if they do finish anything.  After all, you pledged to help develop a game, not receive a finished game.  Development and testing goes lights out, and finished game goes live.  There is no guarantee that access to the first grants access to the latter.

    I guess you could put your donation status on your resume.  Good luck with that.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 8,343
    Only day I am interested in with this game is launch day. Anything else is mental masturbation.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,328
    Mendel said:
    And pledging does not guarantee that, if the day ever comes that they complete this project, you will actually own the game or be able to continue tinkering with the 'as is' state.  What RSI donation/pledge language does is keep the possibility of them shutting everyone out (including all pre-completion assets) if they do finish anything.  After all, you pledged to help develop a game, not receive a finished game.  Development and testing goes lights out, and finished game goes live.  There is no guarantee that access to the first grants access to the latter.

    I guess you could put your donation status on your resume.  Good luck with that.
    Your pledge already grants access to what they have released, and what you have with it, if released already, it's a live service already under its alpha. Talking something like they saying "ok all you paid was just for alpha k now buy the game again" is obviously not a move of any realism.

    When pledging, on the same place its said it's a pledge not a purchase, they reason pledge simply with "This order includes content that is in-development and not yet ready for release in the game. It is therefore considered a pledge. "
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,871
    edited May 1
    Mendel said:
    MaxBacon said:
    olepi said:
    Not quite. If you check the website. they make it clear that you are making a donation, a pledge, not a purchase.

    "RSI is conducting a crowdfunding campaign to support the development of the Game and the related RSI Services. You do not purchase anything, you make a pledge towards the development of the Game and the other RSI Services."

    Yep, and under the same terms you agree when pledging, they deliver the product they have as is. As this terminology conflicts with the technical way crowdfunding has to have the legal aspect of being sold as product, not as a donation, so it pays the same taxes, it's that same old discussion that applies to kickstarter projects but it does not change the point here.

    What they deliver you is the game as is the moment you bought it, obv entitled to all the updates they keep doing and such. If you pledge now, what I meant is you are not pledging for "this is the release date and these are the features it'll have", no future garantees there hence the "as is".

    And pledging does not guarantee that, if the day ever comes that they complete this project, you will actually own the game or be able to continue tinkering with the 'as is' state.  What RSI donation/pledge language does is keep the possibility of them shutting everyone out (including all pre-completion assets) if they do finish anything.  After all, you pledged to help develop a game, not receive a finished game.  Development and testing goes lights out, and finished game goes live.  There is no guarantee that access to the first grants access to the latter.

    I guess you could put your donation status on your resume.  Good luck with that.
    No, the pledge grants access to the finished game once it's released. If you pledge you'll have access until the game (the version run by RSI) shuts down.
    tzervo
     
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,339
    Wizardry said:
    Would be nice if you could actually design/build your own ship and feel some satisfaction of owning it.Just buying it is the equivalent of some sports team just buying the trophy or a boxer going out and buying his own belt to put around his waist.

    You should feel some immersion playing the game,like you setup a shop,maybe hire a npc or two to work in the shop and begin the process of gathering materials,using a forge and creating the HULL to begin building this ship.

    There would be different areas to search for different materials ,differrent hubs/towns to trade your wares,you know to actually create a plausible WORLD isntead of auto generated land surfaces to fly over in your PRE MADE ....PURCHASED from soem magical store in the sky.....PIXEL SHIP.



    I really have to agree here. I love me some space ship building games and own Starmade, Empyrion Galactic Survival, Kerbal Space Program, and Space Engineers among others.

    Building your own ship is a far better gameplay experience imho.

    For Star Citizen to be tooting best damn Space Sim ever and not have player built ships...

    Maybe they will add it at some point but I doubt it. It's all about the cash and having to give players royalties or run a player made ship sale, yeah, not so much when all the ships on the steam workshop are free. Pretty much any way you look at it trying to monetize player made ships would have been a nightmare and not anything close to the funding they got.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

    Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/ 

  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,339
    olepi said:
    MaxBacon said:
    olepi said:
    MaxBacon said:
    ...
    Good for anyone who was wondering to try it, no need to buy it.
    Just to be clear, you cannot "buy" Star Citizen. There is no product for sale.

    You can donate or "pledge" money in hopes of a future release of a game. If no game releases, you don't get your money back.

    You can play whatever they have at the moment, but you cannot buy it.

    That's technically not correct, what they are selling is the game "as is", they are not selling you a release date, if you decide to get it now it's your choice. It is under the same terms as a steam early access game, getting it "as is on the moment you bought it".

    Not quite. If you check the website, they make it clear that you are making a donation, a pledge, not a purchase.

    "RSI is conducting a crowdfunding campaign to support the development of the Game and the related RSI Services. You do not purchase anything, you make a pledge towards the development of the Game and the other RSI Services.


    Please read this clause carefully to understand the differences between crowdfunding and a purchase."


    Actually it doesn't matter what they say. It matters what laws they need to comply with. The EU made them charge VAT and they are considered purchases.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

    Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/ 

  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,354
    Hey, that's clickbait. I came here expecting a release date!  o:)
    Mars_OMG
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,555
    Vrika said:
    Mendel said:
    MaxBacon said:
    olepi said:
    Not quite. If you check the website. they make it clear that you are making a donation, a pledge, not a purchase.

    "RSI is conducting a crowdfunding campaign to support the development of the Game and the related RSI Services. You do not purchase anything, you make a pledge towards the development of the Game and the other RSI Services."

    Yep, and under the same terms you agree when pledging, they deliver the product they have as is. As this terminology conflicts with the technical way crowdfunding has to have the legal aspect of being sold as product, not as a donation, so it pays the same taxes, it's that same old discussion that applies to kickstarter projects but it does not change the point here.

    What they deliver you is the game as is the moment you bought it, obv entitled to all the updates they keep doing and such. If you pledge now, what I meant is you are not pledging for "this is the release date and these are the features it'll have", no future garantees there hence the "as is".

    And pledging does not guarantee that, if the day ever comes that they complete this project, you will actually own the game or be able to continue tinkering with the 'as is' state.  What RSI donation/pledge language does is keep the possibility of them shutting everyone out (including all pre-completion assets) if they do finish anything.  After all, you pledged to help develop a game, not receive a finished game.  Development and testing goes lights out, and finished game goes live.  There is no guarantee that access to the first grants access to the latter.

    I guess you could put your donation status on your resume.  Good luck with that.
    No, the pledge grants access to the finished game once it's released. If you pledge you'll have access until the game (the version run by RSI) shuts down.

    So, RSI is saying it isn't a purchase, but are treating it as a purchase.  I wonder how a court would interpret that.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,871
    Mendel said:
    Vrika said:
    Mendel said:
    MaxBacon said:
    olepi said:
    Not quite. If you check the website. they make it clear that you are making a donation, a pledge, not a purchase.

    "RSI is conducting a crowdfunding campaign to support the development of the Game and the related RSI Services. You do not purchase anything, you make a pledge towards the development of the Game and the other RSI Services."

    Yep, and under the same terms you agree when pledging, they deliver the product they have as is. As this terminology conflicts with the technical way crowdfunding has to have the legal aspect of being sold as product, not as a donation, so it pays the same taxes, it's that same old discussion that applies to kickstarter projects but it does not change the point here.

    What they deliver you is the game as is the moment you bought it, obv entitled to all the updates they keep doing and such. If you pledge now, what I meant is you are not pledging for "this is the release date and these are the features it'll have", no future garantees there hence the "as is".

    And pledging does not guarantee that, if the day ever comes that they complete this project, you will actually own the game or be able to continue tinkering with the 'as is' state.  What RSI donation/pledge language does is keep the possibility of them shutting everyone out (including all pre-completion assets) if they do finish anything.  After all, you pledged to help develop a game, not receive a finished game.  Development and testing goes lights out, and finished game goes live.  There is no guarantee that access to the first grants access to the latter.

    I guess you could put your donation status on your resume.  Good luck with that.
    No, the pledge grants access to the finished game once it's released. If you pledge you'll have access until the game (the version run by RSI) shuts down.

    So, RSI is saying it isn't a purchase, but are treating it as a purchase.  I wonder how a court would interpret that.
    Likely that RSI would need to fulfill the agreement whether it's classified as a purchase or not.

    If you acquire Star Citizen's starter pack from RSI's store today, you'll get "Star Citizen digital download" as part of the pack. You're also explicitly promised "Additional features and updates will be released as they are developed".

    There's no way the court would allow an interpretation where RSI could launch/run Star Citizen without giving people who've acquired that package access.
     
  • Mars_OMGMars_OMG Member EpicPosts: 3,504
    edited May 2
    I upgraded to Freelancer MAX, which puts SC the most money I spent on a game in the last few years.

    https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/ships/misc-freelancer/Freelancer-MAX#buying-options
    Iselin
    - abandoning social media could possibly save the world.  
    #RestoreTheSnyderVerse 
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