there is another way though as ive tried to describe. Like equipment if a player also has slots you just fill those up as you find them. The first 12 you get might not be ideal or even work together, but you have 12, just like everyone else.
Making those 12 work together for maximum performance is where the real game is and by its own nature has far more content available to it. You will find the other 100 unique perks but you can find the ones you need first and then find the others at your leisure.
This is only possible when each one is unique and you have a limit. The best character is the one were they all work together to complement a players playstyle. The same applies to your equipment, your skills and even your hotbar layout.
GW2 does this, where getting to level cap, good gear is super easy, and all the real power sits in the traits.
Same basic idea as yours, with building synergy in slots to max out character power, they just do it with trait slots, as opposed to equipment slots.
This is how your idea will end: a Group of power gamers will math out the best combo, this will become meta, and everything else will be shit.
This is how it will end.
So much so, that GW2/Arena Net's Dev Team got ram rodded so hard by this fact that the developers themselves didn't realize how massive the power disparity could be, and it was to to amounts of 10 - 20 times the DPS.
To give an example. My Warrior in GW2, with a sub optimal Trait line could do around 2K DPS. then I swapped to a Meta Trait line, and was doing around 20K DPS with Spikes up to 60K.
Now for me, I think that is some pretty bad design, as truthfully, there is little to no advantage to build a game with that level of power disparity between a "bad" choice vs a "good" one, as in the end, whatever the "Other than Meta" you put into the game, will amount to nothing more than wasted developer time that went into making and designing those choices that no one, who wants to be any good at the game, will take.
This is something to keep in mind.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
there is another way though as ive tried to describe. Like equipment if a player also has slots you just fill those up as you find them. The first 12 you get might not be ideal or even work together, but you have 12, just like everyone else.
Making those 12 work together for maximum performance is where the real game is and by its own nature has far more content available to it. You will find the other 100 unique perks but you can find the ones you need first and then find the others at your leisure.
This is only possible when each one is unique and you have a limit. The best character is the one were they all work together to complement a players playstyle. The same applies to your equipment, your skills and even your hotbar layout.
GW2 does this, where getting to level cap, good gear is super easy, and all the real power sits in the traits.
Same basic idea as yours, with building synergy in slots to max out character power, they just do it with trait slots, as opposed to equipment slots.
This is how your idea will end: a Group of power gamers will math out the best combo, this will become meta, and everything else will be shit.
This is how it will end.
So much so, that GW2/Arena Net's Dev Team got ram rodded so hard by this fact that the developers themselves didn't realize how massive the power disparity could be, and it was to to amounts of 10 - 20 times the DPS.
To give an example. My Warrior in GW2, with a sub optimal Trait line could do around 2K DPS. then I swapped to a Meta Trait line, and was doing around 20K DPS with Spikes up to 60K.
Now for me, I think that is some pretty bad design, as truthfully, there is little to no advantage to build a game with that level of power disparity between a "bad" choice vs a "good" one, as in the end, whatever the "Other than Meta" you put into the game, will amount to nothing more than wasted developer time that went into making and designing those choices that no one, who wants to be any good at the game, will take.
This is something to keep in mind.
Ah yes but there are other factors and rules i haven't presented but are in my other thread about evolution of the roles.
Rule 1: there is no way to directly boost damage. Damage is a function of the weapon. It can be done indirectly but not directly. This is not a eso style dot stacker.
Rule2: Roles are determined by their damage TYPE and mitigation TYPE not by their activity. Just because you can kill one enemy easy doesnt mean youll be effective vs another one. Your damage type really matters and possibly more than what the ability is worth. Show me a game where that is the case?
Rule 2: generalizing (uber gamers figuring it out) is penalized through the mitigation principle. The uber route is the most obvious and safest one. Will players figure it out? sure they will. They will also take the penalty for going outside what was intended.
Since games are all about dps and nothing else you only see dps as thats all there is. It will be alot more interesting when your character has real weaknesses that really matter. When your character is situationally strong and weak youll not be thinking about your dps anymore.
its less about dps and more about you knowing the mobs strengths and weakness as well as your own.
there is another way though as ive tried to describe. Like equipment if a player also has slots you just fill those up as you find them. The first 12 you get might not be ideal or even work together, but you have 12, just like everyone else.
Making those 12 work together for maximum performance is where the real game is and by its own nature has far more content available to it. You will find the other 100 unique perks but you can find the ones you need first and then find the others at your leisure.
This is only possible when each one is unique and you have a limit. The best character is the one were they all work together to complement a players playstyle. The same applies to your equipment, your skills and even your hotbar layout.
GW2 does this, where getting to level cap, good gear is super easy, and all the real power sits in the traits.
Same basic idea as yours, with building synergy in slots to max out character power, they just do it with trait slots, as opposed to equipment slots.
This is how your idea will end: a Group of power gamers will math out the best combo, this will become meta, and everything else will be shit.
This is how it will end.
So much so, that GW2/Arena Net's Dev Team got ram rodded so hard by this fact that the developers themselves didn't realize how massive the power disparity could be, and it was to to amounts of 10 - 20 times the DPS.
To give an example. My Warrior in GW2, with a sub optimal Trait line could do around 2K DPS. then I swapped to a Meta Trait line, and was doing around 20K DPS with Spikes up to 60K.
Now for me, I think that is some pretty bad design, as truthfully, there is little to no advantage to build a game with that level of power disparity between a "bad" choice vs a "good" one, as in the end, whatever the "Other than Meta" you put into the game, will amount to nothing more than wasted developer time that went into making and designing those choices that no one, who wants to be any good at the game, will take.
This is something to keep in mind.
Ah yes but there are other factors and rules i haven't presented but are in my other thread about evolution of the roles.
Rule 1: there is no way to directly boost damage. Damage is a function of the weapon. It can be done indirectly but not directly. This is not a eso style dot stacker.
Rule2: Roles are determined by their damage TYPE and mitigation TYPE not by their activity. Just because you can kill one enemy easy doesnt mean youll be effective vs another one. Your damage type really matters and possibly more than what the ability is worth. Show me a game where that is the case?
Rule 2: generalizing (uber gamers figuring it out) is penalized through the mitigation principle. The uber route is the most obvious and safest one. Will players figure it out? sure they will. They will also take the penalty for going outside what was intended.
Since games are all about dps and nothing else you only see dps as thats all there is. It will be alot more interesting when your character has real weaknesses that really matter. When your character is situationally strong and weak youll not be thinking about your dps anymore.
its less about dps and more about you knowing the mobs strengths and weakness as well as your own.
Rule 1:
There is NO WAY to boost damage outside the weapon used? So, basically a FPS?
Rule 2:
Damage Type Denotes Role? No dis, but this seems counter to Rule 1, where you have clearly said that it is the weapon that denotes damage and there is no way outside the weapon itself to change the damage output.
Rule 3?: Mitigation Factors. I am just going to take this as Mobs has Damage Mitigation Mechanics. Ok, so this seems to work against both Rule 1 and Rule 2, where Damage is Denoted by Weapon, and Role is Denoted by Damage Type.
This sounds like a FPS where your tactical role changes via weapon swaps, while I can't say off hand that I have played a game like this, it sounds like one of those ideas that I would have see in action to really get a vibe for. As right now, I have this image where a character has their great axe out, and is like this Mad Rage Barbarian, that does this Apex Boss Level DPS, then they weapon swap to Staff, and suddenly become the Cleric, and cast heal spells and shoot light rays from their staff, and then swap again to a Sword and Shield, and can suddenly Tank like a MF'er using their shield to shrug off all attacks, then they pull out a Specter and can cast fireballs and shit through it , and while this sounds crazy ass dope, TBH, and a game I would want to play, because that really sounds dope AF.
It also comes across as a game that if not done like super well, would suck so much ass.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Its just a game where the most important thing is that you know your enemy. Something people are really really bad at in general.
knowing your enemy is more important than your uber leet weapon or your mad skills. because it forms the basis of your attack strategy
not to say the other things have no importance. Definitely not a fps. Its actually pure rpg.
remember rust monsters from D&D. Remember how they would wreck metal weapon and armor. That's an example of a mob specific situation where you have to know your enemy.
modern games you dont need to know anything. Just dps.
Its just a game where the most important thing is that you know your enemy. Something people are really really bad at in general.
knowing your enemy is more important than your uber leet weapon or your mad skills. because it forms the basis of your attack strategy
not to say the other things have no importance. Definitely not a fps. Its actually pure rpg.
remember rust monsters from D&D. Remember how they would wreck metal weapon and armor. That's an example of a mob specific situation where you have to know your enemy.
modern games you dont need to know anything. Just dps.
NGL, this is a less dope idea than the weapon swap thing I thought of.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Its just a game where the most important thing is that you know your enemy. Something people are really really bad at in general.
knowing your enemy is more important than your uber leet weapon or your mad skills. because it forms the basis of your attack strategy
not to say the other things have no importance. Definitely not a fps. Its actually pure rpg.
remember rust monsters from D&D. Remember how they would wreck metal weapon and armor. That's an example of a mob specific situation where you have to know your enemy.
modern games you dont need to know anything. Just dps.
NGL, this is a less dope idea than the weapon swap thing I thought of.
All im really saying here is that when you make everything situational you actually have to think to play the game. You actually have to learn about each monster.
in a modern game there's no thinking. Its a dps game. Just press the buttons in the correct order and you win. There is no real strategy. Bosses are no better as they rely on the "do this now or die" aka mechanics.
Real strategy requires you to have to know something about the enemy. How else can you make a strategy? In modern games you dont need to know anything about your enemy. You just need to be able to kill it faster than it can kill you.
Its just a game where the most important thing is that you know your enemy. Something people are really really bad at in general.
knowing your enemy is more important than your uber leet weapon or your mad skills. because it forms the basis of your attack strategy
not to say the other things have no importance. Definitely not a fps. Its actually pure rpg.
remember rust monsters from D&D. Remember how they would wreck metal weapon and armor. That's an example of a mob specific situation where you have to know your enemy.
modern games you dont need to know anything. Just dps.
NGL, this is a less dope idea than the weapon swap thing I thought of.
All im really saying here is that when you make everything situational you actually have to think to play the game. You actually have to learn about each monster.
in a modern game there's no thinking. Its a dps game. Just press the buttons in the correct order and you win. There is no real strategy. Bosses are no better as they rely on the "do this now or die" aka mechanics.
Real strategy requires you to have to know something about the enemy. How else can you make a strategy? In modern games you dont need to know anything about your enemy. You just need to be able to kill it faster than it can kill you.
Have you played Dungeons and Dragons Online?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
No i haven't. Didnt even think it still existed until you mentioned it. I might take a look.
Ok, you gotta check that game out.
Now, it's old, like made back in 2006 kind of old, and thus it's dated, it looks dated, but, I bet it has all those features you might love.
Like Rust Monsters eating your metal weapons, or just common sense things that are not in modern MMO's like, fire elementals being immune to fire damage, but taking extra damage from cold attacks, and the like.
Plays on a Homebrew/Modified 3.x D&D rules, so it feels and plays like 3.x Rules, but, with some added/revised things going on.
Give it a whirl, it's F2P, but, like some old school D&D, the Extra Content Packs you need buy. Personally, I'd suggest getting a sub for the month, to see if you like it, and that should give you all the content you can handle.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
No i haven't. Didnt even think it still existed until you mentioned it. I might take a look.
Ok, you gotta check that game out.
Now, it's old, like made back in 2006 kind of old, and thus it's dated, it looks dated, but, I bet it has all those features you might love.
Like Rust Monsters eating your metal weapons, or just common sense things that are not in modern MMO's like, fire elementals being immune to fire damage, but taking extra damage from cold attacks, and the like.
Plays on a Homebrew/Modified 3.x D&D rules, so it feels and plays like 3.x Rules, but, with some added/revised things going on.
Give it a whirl, it's F2P, but, like some old school D&D, the Extra Content Packs you need buy. Personally, I'd suggest getting a sub for the month, to see if you like it, and that should give you all the content you can handle.
Even UO does stuff like this as well did AC .. and yes you needed tacs and different approach there now/then , try fighting a Lich Lord with the same approach as a troll or Ogre ..
And just expanding on you Ungood , directed at Rungars that every fight is just DPS ..
It hasnt been that way that i can think of .. Not in UO/EQ/LOTRO WOW .. etc ... tons of tac and strategy to win in those gamesd , im not eevn sure if the OP has played many games at all with his limted knowledge of encounters in any of these games
sure ive played them most of them. I know eq had some elements....over 20 years ago...daoc, Never played lord of the rings long enough, I played wow to lv 60, don't remember anything particularly challenging or have to learn anything.
Certainly dont remember it in eso or gw2 and never played final fantasy but watched my brother and its no different than eso.
oh they all have their strategies. Just not the ones i suggest. Rarely in these games do you need to change strategies due to a monster or figure out a weakness. Almost never do you not have the tools for every monster.
I think most of the challenging content in most popular mmorpg is in dungeon and raids.
You won't find any challenging content in the open world in those games. Even the dungeon is mostly a breeze because you'll be playing with people who ran the same dungeon 1000 times and they'll carry you.
sure ive played them most of them. I know eq had some elements....over 20 years ago...daoc, Never played lord of the rings long enough, I played wow to lv 60, don't remember anything particularly challenging or have to learn anything.
Certainly dont remember it in eso or gw2 and never played final fantasy but watched my brother and its no different than eso.
oh they all have their strategies. Just not the ones i suggest. Rarely in these games do you need to change strategies due to a monster or figure out a weakness. Almost never do you not have the tools for every monster.
Were not talking about scripted raids here.
EVE actually does have some of the situational awareness you mentioned.
It can matter a great deal when and where you use an armor fit vs a shield fit depending on what you opponent is likely to shoot at you or be using.
PVE is a bit more forgiving at times but in certain environments having the wrong fit say in a certain wormhole type can be disastrous for sure, but usually isn't to hard to avoid.
PVP is different, never can be sure your opponent won't surprise you which is why running often becomes the best choice when available if one finds themselves outmatched in terms of fits as well as numbers.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Its just a game where the most important thing is that you know your enemy. Something people are really really bad at in general.
knowing your enemy is more important than your uber leet weapon or your mad skills. because it forms the basis of your attack strategy
not to say the other things have no importance. Definitely not a fps. Its actually pure rpg.
remember rust monsters from D&D. Remember how they would wreck metal weapon and armor. That's an example of a mob specific situation where you have to know your enemy.
modern games you dont need to know anything. Just dps.
NGL, this is a less dope idea than the weapon swap thing I thought of.
All im really saying here is that when you make everything situational you actually have to think to play the game. You actually have to learn about each monster.
in a modern game there's no thinking. Its a dps game. Just press the buttons in the correct order and you win. There is no real strategy. Bosses are no better as they rely on the "do this now or die" aka mechanics.
Real strategy requires you to have to know something about the enemy. How else can you make a strategy? In modern games you dont need to know anything about your enemy. You just need to be able to kill it faster than it can kill you.
While I agree that "knowing your enemy" is important and I'm all for strategy over mad clicking, "situational" is cumbersome. Do I carry a sword of flame vs ice critters, a mace of energy vs armored skeletons, a bow of slow vs charging enemies? Let alone all the armor I'll need for each individual situation.
I realize that this is over-the-top, but what are you seeking to do?
Or... is this in the setting of MMO where we count on others for their variety?
This is end of page so my apologies is addressed next page
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Its just a game where the most important thing is that you know your enemy. Something people are really really bad at in general.
knowing your enemy is more important than your uber leet weapon or your mad skills. because it forms the basis of your attack strategy
not to say the other things have no importance. Definitely not a fps. Its actually pure rpg.
remember rust monsters from D&D. Remember how they would wreck metal weapon and armor. That's an example of a mob specific situation where you have to know your enemy.
modern games you dont need to know anything. Just dps.
NGL, this is a less dope idea than the weapon swap thing I thought of.
All im really saying here is that when you make everything situational you actually have to think to play the game. You actually have to learn about each monster.
in a modern game there's no thinking. Its a dps game. Just press the buttons in the correct order and you win. There is no real strategy. Bosses are no better as they rely on the "do this now or die" aka mechanics.
Real strategy requires you to have to know something about the enemy. How else can you make a strategy? In modern games you dont need to know anything about your enemy. You just need to be able to kill it faster than it can kill you.
While I agree that "knowing your enemy" is important and I'm all for strategy over mad clicking, "situational" is cumbersome. Do I carry a sword of flame vs ice critters, a mace of energy vs armored skeletons, a bow of slow vs charging enemies? Let alone all the armor I'll need for each individual situation.
I realize that this is over-the-top, but what are you seeking to do?
Or... is this in the setting of MMO where we count on others for their variety?
This is end of page so my apologies is addressed next page
In DDO, the answer to this Question is Yes.
in DDO, Your Trusty Dwarven Warrior, will have their hefty Dwarf Axe for Zombie's, and then Swap to a War Hammer for Skelton's, when you need to deal with the fire critters, you will want a Frost Weapon, and a Blazing weapon for the Ice Critters, you will also want a Silver weapon, a Good Weapon, an Adamantine Weapon, and perhaps a non-metal weapon, like Glass or Wood, or just use a throw-away, also, ranged weapons are a must, so even if you are the most melee, melee player ever, you might want to get a throwing hammer or throwing dagger, or something, just for those times that a mob happens to be up on a ledge shooting you with a bow.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Its just a game where the most important thing is that you know your enemy. Something people are really really bad at in general.
knowing your enemy is more important than your uber leet weapon or your mad skills. because it forms the basis of your attack strategy
not to say the other things have no importance. Definitely not a fps. Its actually pure rpg.
remember rust monsters from D&D. Remember how they would wreck metal weapon and armor. That's an example of a mob specific situation where you have to know your enemy.
modern games you dont need to know anything. Just dps.
NGL, this is a less dope idea than the weapon swap thing I thought of.
All im really saying here is that when you make everything situational you actually have to think to play the game. You actually have to learn about each monster.
in a modern game there's no thinking. Its a dps game. Just press the buttons in the correct order and you win. There is no real strategy. Bosses are no better as they rely on the "do this now or die" aka mechanics.
Real strategy requires you to have to know something about the enemy. How else can you make a strategy? In modern games you dont need to know anything about your enemy. You just need to be able to kill it faster than it can kill you.
While I agree that "knowing your enemy" is important and I'm all for strategy over mad clicking, "situational" is cumbersome. Do I carry a sword of flame vs ice critters, a mace of energy vs armored skeletons, a bow of slow vs charging enemies? Let alone all the armor I'll need for each individual situation.
I realize that this is over-the-top, but what are you seeking to do?
Or... is this in the setting of MMO where we count on others for their variety?
This is end of page so my apologies is addressed next page
Yes! You might not have the tools to do everything yourself. some things might be hard and some things might be impossible and might need help! Someone else might need help with something your good at!
You dont HAVE to be able to kill everything yourself. You dont need, and there wont be a "special weapon" for every encounter and that's why we have the situational role system. You might have a few "better than nothing" options available to you but there should be no expectation of having the right tool for the job in every situation.
you can easily avoid everything your not good at if your a solo player. Your not forced to group to kill anything at all, but you shouldnt have the expectation you can kill everything either.
I'm still not liking the Rock-Paper-Scissors approach to weapon effectiveness against mobs. Such a system is going to limit the number of weapons OR the number of enemy types OR both.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I'm still not liking the Rock-Paper-Scissors approach to weapon effectiveness against mobs. Such a system is going to limit the number of weapons OR the number of enemy types OR both.
Just because something is inherently more challenging, doesnt mean you cant do it. In an exp based game you would just avoid that creature and pick easier fruit. In a no exp game the resource is what matters more so if you want the resource you need to kill it. This kind of situational system doesn't work right in an exp system because players pick low hanging fruit, and why not?
Its not all or nothing either. Your weapons will still work to some degree based on the situation, but they wont be the most effective solution in every case. This lets you feel powerful and humble at the same time.
This is why i like a 3 weapon system you can change on the fly. Youll have something that will work. It might not always be the best but youll have something for most occasions. Some monsters you will learn to avoid when your by yourself.
its reasonable for a mage to avoid a mob thats immune or even resistant to magic.
I'm still not liking the Rock-Paper-Scissors approach to weapon effectiveness against mobs. Such a system is going to limit the number of weapons OR the number of enemy types OR both.
DDO uses what is called a DR Breaker.
Case in point. Most Devils are Silver -or- Good, to break their DR. Most Daemons are Cold Iron -or- Good to Break their DR. Most Vampires are Silver to Break their DR. Devil Raid Bosses are Silver -And- Good to Break their DR.
So if you have, say, a Holy Silver Longsword, you can bypass the DR of a large group of Mobs, and some Raid Bosses.
But it's not all about the weapon, for example, a Monk, when they get to a high enough level, and if they chose specific paths, their Unarmed Strikes (Using Hand wraps) can count as Good, as well as all the other properties of the Hand wraps.
There are also Magical Augments to some Weapons, like for example, you have a Metalline Weapon, which means the weapon counts as all Metal Types, IE: Cold Iron, Silver, Adamantine, Byeshk, etc.
You also have Aligned Weapons. That can bypass any Alignment DR. Which includes, good, evil, lawful, chaotic, etc.
There are also weapons that do various kinds of Damage, Pierce/Slash/Blunt. Like a Heavy Boltslinger Crossbow, does both Pierce and Blunt Damage, super handy for people that want to shoot Skeltions with a Crossbow.
Now, sometimes the DR is rather low, like for example, a Generic Skelton, level 3, their DR to slashing is 5. Not that hard to overcome if you opt to just smash them with your greataxe. This may or may not become an issue for your character in the game, depending on how much you want to focus on a single weapon type.
So it's not really an all or nothing, it's more a Damage Reduction.
Even mobs that have fire immunity. You can still hit them with your flaming longsword, just know the fire damage won't hurt them, even if the blade itself will.
But, yes, it is about situational weapons, this keeps the game from being "You need Epic Purple Border Weapon XYZ, or you suck"
In DDO, there is no one weapon to rule them all, some argue that at 30th, there is, but.. not really. When you consider that you can play this game with a vast array of choices, from many races, each with their own advantages and disadvantages and trait lines, as well as mix up to 3 classes, with up to 3 trait lines per class, along with some generic trait lines that anyone can use, various feats, skills, and a slew of armor, weapons, gear, items, consumables, you have a lot to think about.
Couple that with each dungeon is about resources management, with a very limited number of rest shrines to heal and recover spell points while in a dungeon, So if you take a beating in one fight, you either need to have brought some kind of healing with you, like Healing potions, healing wands, a friend that can heal, maybe the ability to cast heal spells yourself, but you can't just sit Out Of Combat, and expect to fully recover like other games.
It's kinda fun, if that is your sort of thing.. if not, then it will suck for you, and you should play something else.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I'm still not liking the Rock-Paper-Scissors approach to weapon effectiveness against mobs. Such a system is going to limit the number of weapons OR the number of enemy types OR both.
I'm with you on this.
I certainly can understand players who desire this kind of strategy. I'm not one of them. I dislike Fallout: New Vegas for their handling of ammo types. I much prefer Fallout 3's much simpler, less worrisome ammo. There is big majority of players that preferred New Vegas over 3
I appreciate the "types vs defense" strategies but it pushes me over my personal limit. I also understand that not having the correct type doesn't mean you can't hurt them, unless they are "immune." It's just not "as efficient."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I'm still not liking the Rock-Paper-Scissors approach to weapon effectiveness against mobs. Such a system is going to limit the number of weapons OR the number of enemy types OR both.
DDO uses what is called a DR Breaker.
Case in point. Most Devils are Silver -or- Good, to break their DR. Most Daemons are Cold Iron -or- Good to Break their DR. Most Vampires are Silver to Break their DR. Devil Raid Bosses are Silver -And- Good to Break their DR.
So if you have, say, a Holy Silver Longsword, you can bypass the DR of a large group of Mobs, and some Raid Bosses.
But it's not all about the weapon, for example, a Monk, when they get to a high enough level, and if they chose specific paths, their Unarmed Strikes (Using Hand wraps) can count as Good, as well as all the other properties of the Hand wraps.
There are also Magical Augments to some Weapons, like for example, you have a Metalline Weapon, which means the weapon counts as all Metal Types, IE: Cold Iron, Silver, Adamantine, Byeshk, etc.
You also have Aligned Weapons. That can bypass any Alignment DR. Which includes, good, evil, lawful, chaotic, etc.
There are also weapons that do various kinds of Damage, Pierce/Slash/Blunt. Like a Heavy Boltslinger Crossbow, does both Pierce and Blunt Damage, super handy for people that want to shoot Skeltions with a Crossbow.
Now, sometimes the DR is rather low, like for example, a Generic Skelton, level 3, their DR to slashing is 5. Not that hard to overcome if you opt to just smash them with your greataxe. This may or may not become an issue for your character in the game, depending on how much you want to focus on a single weapon type.
So it's not really an all or nothing, it's more a Damage Reduction.
Even mobs that have fire immunity. You can still hit them with your flaming longsword, just know the fire damage won't hurt them, even if the blade itself will.
But, yes, it is about situational weapons, this keeps the game from being "You need Epic Purple Border Weapon XYZ, or you suck"
In DDO, there is no one weapon to rule them all, some argue that at 30th, there is, but.. not really. When you consider that you can play this game with a vast array of choices, from many races, each with their own advantages and disadvantages and trait lines, as well as mix up to 3 classes, with up to 3 trait lines per class, along with some generic trait lines that anyone can use, various feats, skills, and a slew of armor, weapons, gear, items, consumables, you have a lot to think about.
Couple that with each dungeon is about resources management, with a very limited number of rest shrines to heal and recover spell points while in a dungeon, So if you take a beating in one fight, you either need to have brought some kind of healing with you, like Healing potions, healing wands, a friend that can heal, maybe the ability to cast heal spells yourself, but you can't just sit Out Of Combat, and expect to fully recover like other games.
It's kinda fun, if that is your sort of thing.. if not, then it will suck for you, and you should play something else.
Where this falls apart is that you just need to switch to the right weapon, which is always available and thus invalidates the entire role process. In order for it to work properly you have to have a continuum where you can go from really good to really bad based solely on the monster your facing.
just adding different weapon types isnt enough and actually makes it worse for the reason Al mentioned. Players get frustrated by having to many weapons to cycle through.
Instead you pick a role knowing that the role has real strengths and real weaknesses. There might be some variability in the weapons you use but you dont solve the problem by getting weapon type x.
so in the case of the fighter against the physical resistance mob, well none of his weapons work well, but maces work better than swords.
I feel like linear leveling progression died 10 years ago; however, nobody made a good enough mmo without it in the meantime and instead made terrible MMOs. For that reason, linear leveling progression is revived and there is a great thirst for it at this point in time.
So in short, if you think linear leveling progression is a thing of the past, then you are behind thr power curve slightly.
Given the recent popularity of survival games I find that to be highly questionable. Players want basebuilding and adventure not a walking stat sheet grinder.
Eso was literally brought back from the dead by removing some "levels", and as we see in their most recent patches they have walked back on their megagrind champion system not once, but twice.
Since that is one of the more popular mmo games out, i dont see where the demand for more level grinding is coming from?
Recent? ARK came out like 6 years ago. Conan Exiles 5 years ago. The only survival game that had had a recent surge is Valheim and that's not even because it's survival but because it is just a really well made game and cheap.
To add, valheim was way too easy and has zero endgame longevity. Ark and Conan had endgame but even that had a shelf life before the server needed to be wiped for a reset. After that happens a few times in a row the shelf life of that is now gone too and the original players are now looking for a new game to play. Also, there is not one survival game out there that is MMO. They all have 70 limit servers max...
To add, all of Valheims player base only lasted for about 4 weeks tops until they moved on. 2 to 4 million is impressive and nice; however it's a 6 person server so... not even close to an MMO.
The notion that mmorpg players are leaving the genre and permanently going to survival is a ridiculous gesture.
I'm still not liking the Rock-Paper-Scissors approach to weapon effectiveness against mobs. Such a system is going to limit the number of weapons OR the number of enemy types OR both.
DDO uses what is called a DR Breaker.
Case in point. Most Devils are Silver -or- Good, to break their DR. Most Daemons are Cold Iron -or- Good to Break their DR. Most Vampires are Silver to Break their DR. Devil Raid Bosses are Silver -And- Good to Break their DR.
So if you have, say, a Holy Silver Longsword, you can bypass the DR of a large group of Mobs, and some Raid Bosses.
But it's not all about the weapon, for example, a Monk, when they get to a high enough level, and if they chose specific paths, their Unarmed Strikes (Using Hand wraps) can count as Good, as well as all the other properties of the Hand wraps.
There are also Magical Augments to some Weapons, like for example, you have a Metalline Weapon, which means the weapon counts as all Metal Types, IE: Cold Iron, Silver, Adamantine, Byeshk, etc.
You also have Aligned Weapons. That can bypass any Alignment DR. Which includes, good, evil, lawful, chaotic, etc.
There are also weapons that do various kinds of Damage, Pierce/Slash/Blunt. Like a Heavy Boltslinger Crossbow, does both Pierce and Blunt Damage, super handy for people that want to shoot Skeltions with a Crossbow.
Now, sometimes the DR is rather low, like for example, a Generic Skelton, level 3, their DR to slashing is 5. Not that hard to overcome if you opt to just smash them with your greataxe. This may or may not become an issue for your character in the game, depending on how much you want to focus on a single weapon type.
So it's not really an all or nothing, it's more a Damage Reduction.
Even mobs that have fire immunity. You can still hit them with your flaming longsword, just know the fire damage won't hurt them, even if the blade itself will.
But, yes, it is about situational weapons, this keeps the game from being "You need Epic Purple Border Weapon XYZ, or you suck"
In DDO, there is no one weapon to rule them all, some argue that at 30th, there is, but.. not really. When you consider that you can play this game with a vast array of choices, from many races, each with their own advantages and disadvantages and trait lines, as well as mix up to 3 classes, with up to 3 trait lines per class, along with some generic trait lines that anyone can use, various feats, skills, and a slew of armor, weapons, gear, items, consumables, you have a lot to think about.
Couple that with each dungeon is about resources management, with a very limited number of rest shrines to heal and recover spell points while in a dungeon, So if you take a beating in one fight, you either need to have brought some kind of healing with you, like Healing potions, healing wands, a friend that can heal, maybe the ability to cast heal spells yourself, but you can't just sit Out Of Combat, and expect to fully recover like other games.
It's kinda fun, if that is your sort of thing.. if not, then it will suck for you, and you should play something else.
Where this falls apart is that you just need to switch to the right weapon, which is always available and thus invalidates the entire role process. In order for it to work properly you have to have a continuum where you can go from really good to really bad based solely on the monster your facing.
just adding different weapon types isnt enough and actually makes it worse for the reason Al mentioned. Players get frustrated by having to many weapons to cycle through.
Instead you pick a role knowing that the role has real strengths and real weaknesses. There might be some variability in the weapons you use but you dont solve the problem by getting weapon type x.
so in the case of the fighter against the physical resistance mob, well none of his weapons work well, but maces work better than swords.
You're really losing me here, with what you are trying to do.
And to set the record Straight, as far as DDO goes, there is no problem with having various kinds of situational weapons, armor, gear, since that is an intrinsic part of the game with mobs having special traits, like Rust Monsters eating metal, Vampires and Werewolves needing silver weapons to hurt them, Trolls needing acid to hurt them or they will simply heal the damage, Kobold Shaman casting Lighting bolts at you, Beholders casting Finger of Death on you, and on and on it will go with the various things that you need to handle and deal with in the various dungeons that you can face, and all of these things are a huge part of both DDO and D&D, where everyone would collect over time, weapons, gear, items, and such, to handle whatever it is they may be facing with each delve.
If Dealing with various mobs with traits that you need situational weapons, Armor, and Gear, to deal with is not what you want to play, then DDO will not be the game for you. Simple as that.
Just with, well, whatever it is your idea will be, you will have players that will want to deal with that, and those that won't, simple as that.
For the players that enjoy games like DDO where you need to think ahead, and build a collection of weapons, armor, and gear, for situations that will arise, they love that part of the game, in fact, that is what keeps them playing a game like DDO, because the newer games simply do not have that depth to them.
As far as the right weapon always being available.. That is it's own game within the game, as a huge part of DDO, is collecting and building that arsenal, so you will be ready to handle what comes.
At the start, it's not so easy. You might have found a really nice great axe, flaming great axe of deadly, for example, great weapon for it's level. Well, you just need to get that the flaming will not work on the fire imps, you will take the hit to DR when fighting Skelton's, or you can swap that frost dagger you looted for fire Imps or just keep whacking at it with the flaming great axe, or when faced with a Skelton, you can swap to that Mace you found, or just keep smashing it with your great axe. These are choices you face.
I feel this kind of gameplay right now, because DDO is doing their Hardcore Event (Perma Death) which means, when you die, your character is dead, and you have to re-start from the very beginning again with a new Character, ALL your stuff and progress lost. So, dealing with the situational aspect of DDO, based on what you loot, and what you can get as you go, is very much it's own challenge and mini-game within the game.
Sure as Time goes on, on the main servers, your immortal character can collect and build a vast array and arsenal of gear and weapons. But that is the main game.
Just as you might think "Oh there is a problem with idea XYZ" that will hold true for whatever anyone thinks up. TBH, I don't grasp your idea, so I can't tell if it is good or bad, I liked my idea if roles being linked to weapons, and being able to swap what position you can play based in a weapon, kind of like how Gensin Impact allows you swap characters in combat to play various roles. I still think that would be a dope idea.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
Same basic idea as yours, with building synergy in slots to max out character power, they just do it with trait slots, as opposed to equipment slots.
This is how your idea will end: a Group of power gamers will math out the best combo, this will become meta, and everything else will be shit.
This is how it will end.
So much so, that GW2/Arena Net's Dev Team got ram rodded so hard by this fact that the developers themselves didn't realize how massive the power disparity could be, and it was to to amounts of 10 - 20 times the DPS.
To give an example. My Warrior in GW2, with a sub optimal Trait line could do around 2K DPS. then I swapped to a Meta Trait line, and was doing around 20K DPS with Spikes up to 60K.
Now for me, I think that is some pretty bad design, as truthfully, there is little to no advantage to build a game with that level of power disparity between a "bad" choice vs a "good" one, as in the end, whatever the "Other than Meta" you put into the game, will amount to nothing more than wasted developer time that went into making and designing those choices that no one, who wants to be any good at the game, will take.
This is something to keep in mind.
Rule 1: there is no way to directly boost damage. Damage is a function of the weapon. It can be done indirectly but not directly. This is not a eso style dot stacker.
Rule2: Roles are determined by their damage TYPE and mitigation TYPE not by their activity. Just because you can kill one enemy easy doesnt mean youll be effective vs another one. Your damage type really matters and possibly more than what the ability is worth. Show me a game where that is the case?
Rule 2: generalizing (uber gamers figuring it out) is penalized through the mitigation principle. The uber route is the most obvious and safest one. Will players figure it out? sure they will. They will also take the penalty for going outside what was intended.
Since games are all about dps and nothing else you only see dps as thats all there is. It will be alot more interesting when your character has real weaknesses that really matter. When your character is situationally strong and weak youll not be thinking about your dps anymore.
its less about dps and more about you knowing the mobs strengths and weakness as well as your own.
There is NO WAY to boost damage outside the weapon used? So, basically a FPS?
Rule 2:
Damage Type Denotes Role? No dis, but this seems counter to Rule 1, where you have clearly said that it is the weapon that denotes damage and there is no way outside the weapon itself to change the damage output.
Rule 3?: Mitigation Factors. I am just going to take this as Mobs has Damage Mitigation Mechanics. Ok, so this seems to work against both Rule 1 and Rule 2, where Damage is Denoted by Weapon, and Role is Denoted by Damage Type.
This sounds like a FPS where your tactical role changes via weapon swaps, while I can't say off hand that I have played a game like this, it sounds like one of those ideas that I would have see in action to really get a vibe for. As right now, I have this image where a character has their great axe out, and is like this Mad Rage Barbarian, that does this Apex Boss Level DPS, then they weapon swap to Staff, and suddenly become the Cleric, and cast heal spells and shoot light rays from their staff, and then swap again to a Sword and Shield, and can suddenly Tank like a MF'er using their shield to shrug off all attacks, then they pull out a Specter and can cast fireballs and shit through it , and while this sounds crazy ass dope, TBH, and a game I would want to play, because that really sounds dope AF.
It also comes across as a game that if not done like super well, would suck so much ass.
knowing your enemy is more important than your uber leet weapon or your mad skills. because it forms the basis of your attack strategy
not to say the other things have no importance. Definitely not a fps. Its actually pure rpg.
remember rust monsters from D&D. Remember how they would wreck metal weapon and armor. That's an example of a mob specific situation where you have to know your enemy.
modern games you dont need to know anything. Just dps.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
in a modern game there's no thinking. Its a dps game. Just press the buttons in the correct order and you win. There is no real strategy. Bosses are no better as they rely on the "do this now or die" aka mechanics.
Real strategy requires you to have to know something about the enemy. How else can you make a strategy? In modern games you dont need to know anything about your enemy. You just need to be able to kill it faster than it can kill you.
Now, it's old, like made back in 2006 kind of old, and thus it's dated, it looks dated, but, I bet it has all those features you might love.
Like Rust Monsters eating your metal weapons, or just common sense things that are not in modern MMO's like, fire elementals being immune to fire damage, but taking extra damage from cold attacks, and the like.
Plays on a Homebrew/Modified 3.x D&D rules, so it feels and plays like 3.x Rules, but, with some added/revised things going on.
Give it a whirl, it's F2P, but, like some old school D&D, the Extra Content Packs you need buy. Personally, I'd suggest getting a sub for the month, to see if you like it, and that should give you all the content you can handle.
Certainly dont remember it in eso or gw2 and never played final fantasy but watched my brother and its no different than eso.
oh they all have their strategies. Just not the ones i suggest. Rarely in these games do you need to change strategies due to a monster or figure out a weakness. Almost never do you not have the tools for every monster.
Were not talking about scripted raids here.
You won't find any challenging content in the open world in those games. Even the dungeon is mostly a breeze because you'll be playing with people who ran the same dungeon 1000 times and they'll carry you.
It can matter a great deal when and where you use an armor fit vs a shield fit depending on what you opponent is likely to shoot at you or be using.
PVE is a bit more forgiving at times but in certain environments having the wrong fit say in a certain wormhole type can be disastrous for sure, but usually isn't to hard to avoid.
PVP is different, never can be sure your opponent won't surprise you which is why running often becomes the best choice when available if one finds themselves outmatched in terms of fits as well as numbers.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
in DDO, Your Trusty Dwarven Warrior, will have their hefty Dwarf Axe for Zombie's, and then Swap to a War Hammer for Skelton's, when you need to deal with the fire critters, you will want a Frost Weapon, and a Blazing weapon for the Ice Critters, you will also want a Silver weapon, a Good Weapon, an Adamantine Weapon, and perhaps a non-metal weapon, like Glass or Wood, or just use a throw-away, also, ranged weapons are a must, so even if you are the most melee, melee player ever, you might want to get a throwing hammer or throwing dagger, or something, just for those times that a mob happens to be up on a ledge shooting you with a bow.
You dont HAVE to be able to kill everything yourself. You dont need, and there wont be a "special weapon" for every encounter and that's why we have the situational role system. You might have a few "better than nothing" options available to you but there should be no expectation of having the right tool for the job in every situation.
you can easily avoid everything your not good at if your a solo player. Your not forced to group to kill anything at all, but you shouldnt have the expectation you can kill everything either.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Its not all or nothing either. Your weapons will still work to some degree based on the situation, but they wont be the most effective solution in every case. This lets you feel powerful and humble at the same time.
This is why i like a 3 weapon system you can change on the fly. Youll have something that will work. It might not always be the best but youll have something for most occasions. Some monsters you will learn to avoid when your by yourself.
its reasonable for a mage to avoid a mob thats immune or even resistant to magic.
Case in point.
Most Devils are Silver -or- Good, to break their DR.
Most Daemons are Cold Iron -or- Good to Break their DR.
Most Vampires are Silver to Break their DR.
Devil Raid Bosses are Silver -And- Good to Break their DR.
So if you have, say, a Holy Silver Longsword, you can bypass the DR of a large group of Mobs, and some Raid Bosses.
But it's not all about the weapon, for example, a Monk, when they get to a high enough level, and if they chose specific paths, their Unarmed Strikes (Using Hand wraps) can count as Good, as well as all the other properties of the Hand wraps.
There are also Magical Augments to some Weapons, like for example, you have a Metalline Weapon, which means the weapon counts as all Metal Types, IE: Cold Iron, Silver, Adamantine, Byeshk, etc.
You also have Aligned Weapons. That can bypass any Alignment DR. Which includes, good, evil, lawful, chaotic, etc.
There are also weapons that do various kinds of Damage, Pierce/Slash/Blunt. Like a Heavy Boltslinger Crossbow, does both Pierce and Blunt Damage, super handy for people that want to shoot Skeltions with a Crossbow.
Now, sometimes the DR is rather low, like for example, a Generic Skelton, level 3, their DR to slashing is 5. Not that hard to overcome if you opt to just smash them with your greataxe. This may or may not become an issue for your character in the game, depending on how much you want to focus on a single weapon type.
So it's not really an all or nothing, it's more a Damage Reduction.
Even mobs that have fire immunity. You can still hit them with your flaming longsword, just know the fire damage won't hurt them, even if the blade itself will.
But, yes, it is about situational weapons, this keeps the game from being "You need Epic Purple Border Weapon XYZ, or you suck"
In DDO, there is no one weapon to rule them all, some argue that at 30th, there is, but.. not really. When you consider that you can play this game with a vast array of choices, from many races, each with their own advantages and disadvantages and trait lines, as well as mix up to 3 classes, with up to 3 trait lines per class, along with some generic trait lines that anyone can use, various feats, skills, and a slew of armor, weapons, gear, items, consumables, you have a lot to think about.
Couple that with each dungeon is about resources management, with a very limited number of rest shrines to heal and recover spell points while in a dungeon, So if you take a beating in one fight, you either need to have brought some kind of healing with you, like Healing potions, healing wands, a friend that can heal, maybe the ability to cast heal spells yourself, but you can't just sit Out Of Combat, and expect to fully recover like other games.
It's kinda fun, if that is your sort of thing.. if not, then it will suck for you, and you should play something else.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
just adding different weapon types isnt enough and actually makes it worse for the reason Al mentioned. Players get frustrated by having to many weapons to cycle through.
Instead you pick a role knowing that the role has real strengths and real weaknesses. There might be some variability in the weapons you use but you dont solve the problem by getting weapon type x.
so in the case of the fighter against the physical resistance mob, well none of his weapons work well, but maces work better than swords.
To add, valheim was way too easy and has zero endgame longevity. Ark and Conan had endgame but even that had a shelf life before the server needed to be wiped for a reset. After that happens a few times in a row the shelf life of that is now gone too and the original players are now looking for a new game to play. Also, there is not one survival game out there that is MMO. They all have 70 limit servers max...
To add, all of Valheims player base only lasted for about 4 weeks tops until they moved on. 2 to 4 million is impressive and nice; however it's a 6 person server so... not even close to an MMO.
The notion that mmorpg players are leaving the genre and permanently going to survival is a ridiculous gesture.
And to set the record Straight, as far as DDO goes, there is no problem with having various kinds of situational weapons, armor, gear, since that is an intrinsic part of the game with mobs having special traits, like Rust Monsters eating metal, Vampires and Werewolves needing silver weapons to hurt them, Trolls needing acid to hurt them or they will simply heal the damage, Kobold Shaman casting Lighting bolts at you, Beholders casting Finger of Death on you, and on and on it will go with the various things that you need to handle and deal with in the various dungeons that you can face, and all of these things are a huge part of both DDO and D&D, where everyone would collect over time, weapons, gear, items, and such, to handle whatever it is they may be facing with each delve.
If Dealing with various mobs with traits that you need situational weapons, Armor, and Gear, to deal with is not what you want to play, then DDO will not be the game for you. Simple as that.
Just with, well, whatever it is your idea will be, you will have players that will want to deal with that, and those that won't, simple as that.
For the players that enjoy games like DDO where you need to think ahead, and build a collection of weapons, armor, and gear, for situations that will arise, they love that part of the game, in fact, that is what keeps them playing a game like DDO, because the newer games simply do not have that depth to them.
As far as the right weapon always being available.. That is it's own game within the game, as a huge part of DDO, is collecting and building that arsenal, so you will be ready to handle what comes.
At the start, it's not so easy. You might have found a really nice great axe, flaming great axe of deadly, for example, great weapon for it's level. Well, you just need to get that the flaming will not work on the fire imps, you will take the hit to DR when fighting Skelton's, or you can swap that frost dagger you looted for fire Imps or just keep whacking at it with the flaming great axe, or when faced with a Skelton, you can swap to that Mace you found, or just keep smashing it with your great axe. These are choices you face.
I feel this kind of gameplay right now, because DDO is doing their Hardcore Event (Perma Death) which means, when you die, your character is dead, and you have to re-start from the very beginning again with a new Character, ALL your stuff and progress lost. So, dealing with the situational aspect of DDO, based on what you loot, and what you can get as you go, is very much it's own challenge and mini-game within the game.
Sure as Time goes on, on the main servers, your immortal character can collect and build a vast array and arsenal of gear and weapons. But that is the main game.
Just as you might think "Oh there is a problem with idea XYZ" that will hold true for whatever anyone thinks up. TBH, I don't grasp your idea, so I can't tell if it is good or bad, I liked my idea if roles being linked to weapons, and being able to swap what position you can play based in a weapon, kind of like how Gensin Impact allows you swap characters in combat to play various roles. I still think that would be a dope idea.