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The transparency of the Camelot Unchained developers

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  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 479
    Wizardry said:

    Ok guys i want to be honest with you supoorters,i am making a different low budget game because i needed to cater to my investor.How does that help all the supporters of the originally pitched game,how does that make the game better how does that ease the minds of supporters?it has done NOTHING except actually piss off many supporters.


    Well the expectation is that if FS:R is successful, it's going to bring some money to CSE and with it they'll be able to hire more developers to work on CU/FS:R and thus releasing them faster.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,486
    Wizardry said:

    Ok guys i want to be honest with you supoorters,i am making a different low budget game because i needed to cater to my investor.How does that help all the supporters of the originally pitched game,how does that make the game better how does that ease the minds of supporters?it has done NOTHING except actually piss off many supporters.


    Well the expectation is that if FS:R is successful, it's going to bring some money to CSE and with it they'll be able to hire more developers to work on CU/FS:R and thus releasing them faster.


    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 479
    edited April 2021
    Kyleran said:
    Wizardry said:

    Ok guys i want to be honest with you supoorters,i am making a different low budget game because i needed to cater to my investor.How does that help all the supporters of the originally pitched game,how does that make the game better how does that ease the minds of supporters?it has done NOTHING except actually piss off many supporters.


    Well the expectation is that if FS:R is successful, it's going to bring some money to CSE and with it they'll be able to hire more developers to work on CU/FS:R and thus releasing them faster.


    Do you think that the money earned with FS:R wouldn't get reinvested in the studio?

    I'm pretty sure Mark wants to release CU as soon as possible (without compromising quality) and would add whatever resources necessary to make it happen, including using FS:R revenues to fund CU. After all, he devoted 8 years and  put millions (and not just a few) of his and his sister's money on this MMORPG.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,486
    I think someone over on Mark's side wants to start receiving some quicker payback on their investments.

    That's why I think he created the Betrayal game.
    Gdemami

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 479
    edited April 2021
    Kyleran said:
    I think someone over on Mark's side wants to start receiving some quicker payback on their investments.

    That's why I think he created the Betrayal game.
    If they were on an hurry to get a payback, they probably wouldn't have invested a new sum, large enough to expand the studio significantly (except if the investor isn't the same but I think it is (Abandon Entertainment) edit: ok actually AE is Mark's sister company).

    Also, concerning my previous message, Mark has written that "If [FS:R] does well, CU gets sped up significantly." which corroborates I believe what I've typed above.

     
  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 479
    Torval said:
    Since CU development hasn't sped up significantly can we infer that FS:R hasn't been successful? Which brings us back to the Marie Barone (Doris Roberts) meme posted above?
    FS:R hasn't launched yet. Time will tell if it gets popular.
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,556
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    Since CU development hasn't sped up significantly can we infer that FS:R hasn't been successful? Which brings us back to the Marie Barone (Doris Roberts) meme posted above?
    FS:R hasn't launched yet. Time will tell if it gets popular.

    Thanks for the info. So that announcement earlier this year wasn't for the game launch. It seems crazy to me that a project so many years behind with one product would announce a second that they need to meet deadlines with. They must really hate themselves. :lol:

    They announced FS: R earlier LAST YEAR

    Update on the game end of last year by KiraTV




    [Deleted User]Nilden
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    Torval said:
    Since CU development hasn't sped up significantly can we infer that FS:R hasn't been successful? Which brings us back to the Marie Barone (Doris Roberts) meme posted above?
    FS:R hasn't launched yet. Time will tell if it gets popular.

    Do you agree, at least, that if FS:R is a flop, CU is dead?
    Gdemami
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Torval said:
    Since CU development hasn't sped up significantly can we infer that FS:R hasn't been successful? Which brings us back to the Marie Barone (Doris Roberts) meme posted above?
    FS:R hasn't launched yet. Time will tell if it gets popular.

    Do you agree, at least, that if FS:R is a flop, CU is dead?
    I seriously doubt that CU's fate hinges on that.

    It's more like if FS:R succeeds that will probably result in accelerated CU development but if it flops they'll just continue with the current glacial pace.
    francis_baud
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  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,916
    Couple of these waving around...

    The Top Red Flags You Need To Look Out For When Deciding To Outsource Your  Business  by Wilson  GrowthOK Blog  Medium
    BruceYeeKyleran[Deleted User][Deleted User]

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  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 479
    edited April 2021
    BruceYee said:
    They announced FS: R earlier LAST YEAR
    [...]

    Update on the game end of last year by KiraTV
    [...]
    Yea what they announced was the First Access, and they did it pretty quietly: even the "promotional" video for Final Stand is unlisted on YouTube.
  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 479

    Do you agree, at least, that if FS:R is a flop, CU is dead?
    Far from it, CSE would just have to get more money from the current investors, or find additional investors, or find another clever way to fund the development.
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531

    Do you agree, at least, that if FS:R is a flop, CU is dead?
    Far from it, CSE would just have to get more money from the current investors, or find additional investors, or find another clever way to fund the development.

    After eight years of dishonesty and failure by CSE, you have a lot more faith than I do.
    francis_baudKyleranGdemami[Deleted User]
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,556
    Torval said:
    Since CU development hasn't sped up significantly can we infer that FS:R hasn't been successful? Which brings us back to the Marie Barone (Doris Roberts) meme posted above?
    FS:R hasn't launched yet. Time will tell if it gets popular.

    Do you agree, at least, that if FS:R is a flop, CU is dead?

    Did you watch that "first access" video KiraTV did that I posted above? The game doesn't really look like it would appeal to many folks unless there is a very rich & long-term progression system to go along with running the same content over and over using the repetitive skill animations.

    If they are expecting FS:R to be the thing that saves CU there better be layers and layers of progression that would make people want to devote themselves to the game.
    Gdemami
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    BruceYee said:
    Torval said:
    Since CU development hasn't sped up significantly can we infer that FS:R hasn't been successful? Which brings us back to the Marie Barone (Doris Roberts) meme posted above?
    FS:R hasn't launched yet. Time will tell if it gets popular.

    Do you agree, at least, that if FS:R is a flop, CU is dead?

    Did you watch that "first access" video KiraTV did that I posted above? The game doesn't really look like it would appeal to many folks unless there is a very rich & long-term progression system to go along with running the same content over and over using the repetitive skill animations.

    If they are expecting FS:R to be the thing that saves CU there better be layers and layers of progression that would make people want to devote themselves to the game.

    Yeah, I've seen it before.  If there's one thing worse than mindless zerg combat in a PvP game, it's mindless zerg combat in a PvE game.  Who knows, maybe they'll sucker in some players in the mobile market.  Mobile gamers seem to have extremely low expectations.
    Gdemami
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    edited April 2021

    Do you agree, at least, that if FS:R is a flop, CU is dead?
    Far from it, CSE would just have to get more money from the current investors, or find additional investors, or find another clever way to fund the development.

    After eight years of dishonesty and failure by CSE, you have a lot more faith than I do.

    And if you're wondering what I mean about dishonesty and failure, I mean:

    1)  Dishonesty and/or failure over how long the game would take to finish, by years

    2)  Dishonesty and/or failure over how much money would be needed, by millions

    3)  Dishonesty and/or failure over the time frame for refunds

    4)  Dishonesty about having a second game in development, and to actually be released before the original, promised game they took backers' money for


    KyleranGdemami[Deleted User]
  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 479
    And if you're wondering what I mean about dishonesty and failure, I mean:

    1)  Dishonesty and/or failure over how long the game would take to finish, by years

    2)  Dishonesty and/or failure over how much money would be needed, by millions

    3)  Dishonesty and/or failure over the time frame for refunds

    4)  Dishonesty about having a second game in development, and to actually be released before the original, promised game they took backers' money for

    1) There are a few things that led to the delays. The inability to recruit as many programmers as needed is one. Their main studio is located in Fairfax (Virginia) and CSE tried for years to attract new programmers. They had to open a second studio in Seattle where they hired new developers and expanded the studio significantly. They also had to remake many systems (ability creation, lighting, animation and VFX systems) which added to the delays. The combat system was also revamped if I'm correct. The block-by-block construction system took a lot more time than expected to develop, with the stability and structure collapse. Another thing to consider is that CU features a lot of innovative systems that do not exist in other MMORPGs, so estimating how long it will take to implement them is very difficult. Things like the islands that can be moved by the players, 1,000+ player battles plus pets and siege engines, the environment appearance that changes based on which realm controls the territory, the aforementioned block-by-block construction/destruction, server-side physics, projectile collision, the RvR dungeon that is "alive" and reacts to players' actions, etc. 

    2) Did he actually post an estimate of how much it would cost to develop CU? I don't recall seeing one.

    3) In February 2020 (the month they announced FS:R), CSE refunded a large number of backers. When Covid-19 did hit the US in March 2020, Mark stopped going in the office during the week days because he feared to bump into someone who had Covid (CSE office is in a big building) or catch the virus via the ventilation system. His wife and himself aren't young anymore and I can understand why he had fears over the virus. Now he's going to the office some week-ends. That plus the very large number of requests received at the same time (February 2020). It doesn't excuse all the delays but it explains in part why it's taking so long.

    4) They could have told us earlier about the second game, I agree, and it would probably not have caused as much outrage. However the way I've interpreted the FS:R livestream is that Mark truly believed that at least a majority of the backers would be happy to get another game for free, a game that didn't take so much time and effort to build because it reused a lot of things built for CU. But yea, unfortunately he was wrong, and he's paying a high price for this mistake.
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    edited April 2021
    People point out the dishonesty and failures, MJ and his couple of supporters explain it away, and still, none of us are close to a finished game.  I guess we're all wasting our time.

    I'll leave it at this:  The only thing that's going to shut critics up at this point is the delivery of a complete, enjoyable game.  Till then, it's just more cheap words like we've been hearing for the last eight years.

    Edit:  Wait, that's not true.  There is something that will shut the critics up:  CSE themselves, every single chance they get.
    Gdemami
  • DeadGenreDeadGenre Newbie CommonPosts: 7
    Good on the early kickstarter campaigns for getting on top of crowdfunding early and suckering people out of their money.

    It's gonna be an uphill battle both ways for future developers to gain any kind of backing thanks to these projects that started nearly a decade ago and still have very little or nothing tangible to show for it, and it's still debatable whether or not anything ever will be delivered for some of them.
    Gdemami
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    edited April 2021
    @francis_baud this former cheerleader sums up the state of things better than I can.  Older video, but most of it still holds true.  Of all the things that CSE has done wrong, I believe that their decision to silence all dissent is their worst move, and is the greatest indicator of desperation.


    GdemamiYashaXNilden
  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 479
    edited April 2021
    I don't appreciate when a company restricts the way a person can express their thoughts, whether it's turning off comments or disabling like/dislike. I think it's indeed problematic. I haven't however watched the video, but I should respond if you want to bring some interesting points from the video.
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    I don't appreciate when a company restricts the way a person can express their thoughts, whether it's turning off comments or disabling like/dislike. I think it's indeed problematic. I haven't however watched the video, but I should respond if you want to bring some interesting points from the video.

    I mean, it would probably be better if you watched the video directly rather than relying on my interpretation of it.
    GdemamiYashaX
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    I don't appreciate when a company restricts the way a person can express their thoughts, whether it's turning off comments or disabling like/dislike. I think it's indeed problematic. I haven't however watched the video, but I should respond if you want to bring some interesting points from the video.

    I mean, it would probably be better if you watched the video directly rather than relying on my interpretation of it.
    It is still understandable at 2X speed and well worth watching for an overview of some of the main reasons people are unhappy with CU's direction.
    Gdemami
    ....
  • PDFSPDFS Member UncommonPosts: 13

    Also I'm pretty sure that most of the ex-backers will be back when CSE launches their game. No other titles offers this kind of epic, massive RvR experience CU will offer. I think it's just a question of time (and funding).



    Will they? I already sold my gaming group this tin of snake oil once, I'm sure as shootin' not doing it again.
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