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New take on an old penalty

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  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    Kyleran said:
    Rungar said:
    Brainy said:
    What I find interesting about these Corpse runs suggestions, is to me its a lot like these devs trying to stop griefing.  They come up with all these anti-grief ideas, they twist themselves into pretzels trying to allow people to grief but in a limited form.  All that happens is they alienate a huge percentage of their casual player base.

    Meanwhile if they remove griefing as a feature, 95+ percent of the population is happy.

    So can someone like myself that thinks corpse runs make games trivial, deal with some of you suggestions.  Yes/Maybe, I can deal with it, but seems like a waste of time to me.  I would rather them just remove it, and make people like you deal with it.
    Clearly you like a more streamlined game than I do. I like characters having to eat, rest, corpse runs, dark dangerous nights etc. To me all these "time wasters" add depth to the game. 
    They call those survival games which clearly there's a market for, just not me.


    The funny thing is that eq had all these things i mentioned above. 

    it had kithcor forest ( dangerous in the night)
    you had to eat and drink
    the corpse run of course
    you even had to rest/meditate to get your mana back though thats not the rest i meant. 

    Gdemami
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 2,757
    Just grab your spirit shard, grind x% of your level. Items take a durability hit. In a game that relies on gold that's usually motivation enough to not die again if it can be helped.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,702
    edited April 23
    Rungar said:
    Kyleran said:
    Rungar said:
    Brainy said:
    What I find interesting about these Corpse runs suggestions, is to me its a lot like these devs trying to stop griefing.  They come up with all these anti-grief ideas, they twist themselves into pretzels trying to allow people to grief but in a limited form.  All that happens is they alienate a huge percentage of their casual player base.

    Meanwhile if they remove griefing as a feature, 95+ percent of the population is happy.

    So can someone like myself that thinks corpse runs make games trivial, deal with some of you suggestions.  Yes/Maybe, I can deal with it, but seems like a waste of time to me.  I would rather them just remove it, and make people like you deal with it.
    Clearly you like a more streamlined game than I do. I like characters having to eat, rest, corpse runs, dark dangerous nights etc. To me all these "time wasters" add depth to the game. 
    They call those survival games which clearly there's a market for, just not me.


    The funny thing is that eq had all these things i mentioned above. 

    it had kithcor forest ( dangerous in the night)
    you had to eat and drink
    the corpse run of course
    you even had to rest/meditate to get your mana back though thats not the rest i meant. 

    Yeah, I didn't play EQ1 for "reasons." Preferred more dangerous games.

    Cut my teeth on L1, DAOC, SB, and L2 before I played WOW .... Mostly down hill from there, only EVE kept the genre from being a total wash for me after that.


    Torvaltzervo

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,614
    Rungar said:
    i understand that i just didnt think it could work because it would become far to annoying to players. I do think it is a good idea and has a place but im not sure how you could implement it any other way without burning players out. 
    It worked fine in Wizardry... the issue wasn't the mechanic but the permadeath part of it. That's just a dumb concept for MMORPGs with long-term character investments.
    It didn't help either that it wasn't permadeath on its own, it was permadeath in a pvp game... not enough facepalms in the world for that design decision.

    The mechanic itself was fun and interesting. If you add different tiers to the revive chances, like Mendel's list about losing your items, or leaving some injuries, etc., I believe it definitely could work, the idea itself is fine.


    Since there's a recent thread about Ripper "It is I, the X" :) and since at that time he was with the site, it's probably fine to link an old mmorpg.com video.
    He did the Wizardry cover, here's his take on the scale mechanic (game had a dedicated tutorial for death, that tells something...)
    Mendel
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 7,933
    I think when I think back to death penalties the instances of death that have made any impact on me have been the times I almost lost everything in Everquest. I still remember some of them like it happened a week ago. I even remember the people that helped me get the corpses back. I recall how grateful I was and how they were like the very best people in the world to me at that moment. Cannot duplicate that kind of feeling in a game with a light penalty. 

    But the Everquest death penalties have long since gone out of favour not that anyone liked them but I think they represent what community building requires. I personally hated them but I enjoyed the chance to help others recover their corpse.

    My opinion is anything punishing will not work any more in a new game.
    MendelTheocritustzervo
    Chamber of Chains
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    cheyane said:
    I think when I think back to death penalties the instances of death that have made any impact on me have been the times I almost lost everything in Everquest. I still remember some of them like it happened a week ago. I even remember the people that helped me get the corpses back. I recall how grateful I was and how they were like the very best people in the world to me at that moment. Cannot duplicate that kind of feeling in a game with a light penalty. 

    But the Everquest death penalties have long since gone out of favour not that anyone liked them but I think they represent what community building requires. I personally hated them but I enjoyed the chance to help others recover their corpse.

    My opinion is anything punishing will not work any more in a new game.
    i think its gone back the other way now. People have played wow and eso and final fantasy and found them wanting. They need more. Thats why i think the corpse run is valheim is a non issue and will be a non issue the games to come, should there be any. 

    Eq actually had some hidden gem ideas but it had some really bad ones too. 

    corpse run=good, lack of support for when you couldnt get to it=bad. I understand they made it easier but it was too little too late. Players already made up their minds. 

    similarly level and exp loss while I understand why they did that, thought it was unnecessary and over the top. 

    but they had other things that other games didnt even bother with. They had food and drink, dangerous nights ( if you were a human or in kithkor forest). They also had the best death mobs/roamers  to disrupt players in low level zones which you never see anymore. 

    they also had a shorter aggro range than you see in games these days but the downside was they had trains ( though i quite enjoyed the trains). 

    Your spell bar was extremely limited to 8 spells and i think games need to go back to that loadout style rather than 500 quickslots if for no other reason but to make the skills and spells themselves more impactful. 

    for me they were the begining and end the game itself was pretty good, but the de-evolution to raid or die was extremely bad for mmos as we have seen. 
    Gdemami
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,174
    Rungar said:
    successful at what? America is a disaster. Destroyed from the inside and everything that was built has been stolen and shipped out by people that have mastered the science of control. 

    people are sicker than ever because you keep taking medicine instead of changing your ways. They get rich while you get sicker. 
    people are lazier than ever because they dont have to do anything. Your apathy gives them control.
    people are dumber than ever because they dont need to use their minds anymore. Your stupidity will make you believe anything they say. 

    science has been leveraged to track you, control you, make you sick, corrupt you, deceive you and ultimately destroy you. 

    When was the last time something was made that was actually beneficial to your wellbeing? Its a religion like any other. A cult.

    I dont expect you to understand. Science without wisdom is destruction and science has no inherent wisdom. 

    it's a tool, not a path.


    Dang, i wrote out this long response on my phone and before i hit send, my hand slipped and i lost it all.

    Here is a tldr.
    Modern science has lead to antibiotics, dialysis, organ transplants, vaccines which have saved 100's of millions of lives.

    Add to it insulin, chemotherapy, new surgery techniques, new imaging techniques in medicine. I practice medicine and science, vast majority of us want only what is best for our patients. Yes, there are bad apples.


    Perhaps that is why people have been living longer since 100 years ago. Now add internet, computers, and cell phones and we have radically changed life.

    You should know you are wrong based on the extreme nature of your position and the painting of everything by a single position.

    You are a Q or Q anon follower right ? You think like those guys as i lurk on their forums for entertainment.

    Everything is corrupted by humans, scientific method is best thing we got, better than relying on the musings of that pillow guy fool or your lord and savior Trump. You still waiting for the plan? You still doing mental gymnastics to reconcile trumpy supporting vaccines and your thought that covid vaccine is a depopulation tool or a control tool. 
    Torval
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 8,296
    cheyane said:
    I think when I think back to death penalties the instances of death that have made any impact on me have been the times I almost lost everything in Everquest. I still remember some of them like it happened a week ago. I even remember the people that helped me get the corpses back. I recall how grateful I was and how they were like the very best people in the world to me at that moment. Cannot duplicate that kind of feeling in a game with a light penalty. 

    But the Everquest death penalties have long since gone out of favour not that anyone liked them but I think they represent what community building requires. I personally hated them but I enjoyed the chance to help others recover their corpse.

    My opinion is anything punishing will not work any more in a new game.

    While no one liked the death penalty, it was definitely great for meeting people and building the community....i made more friends in EQ than I did in all other mMOs combined.....This is why I say we need games where the fighting is tough and we have to work together because I have played enough of them to know that easy solo with no death penalty  is not a good solution long term.
    tzervo
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    Rungar said:
    successful at what? America is a disaster. Destroyed from the inside and everything that was built has been stolen and shipped out by people that have mastered the science of control. 

    people are sicker than ever because you keep taking medicine instead of changing your ways. They get rich while you get sicker. 
    people are lazier than ever because they dont have to do anything. Your apathy gives them control.
    people are dumber than ever because they dont need to use their minds anymore. Your stupidity will make you believe anything they say. 

    science has been leveraged to track you, control you, make you sick, corrupt you, deceive you and ultimately destroy you. 

    When was the last time something was made that was actually beneficial to your wellbeing? Its a religion like any other. A cult.

    I dont expect you to understand. Science without wisdom is destruction and science has no inherent wisdom. 

    it's a tool, not a path.


    Dang, i wrote out this long response on my phone and before i hit send, my hand slipped and i lost it all.

    Here is a tldr.
    Modern science has lead to antibiotics, dialysis, organ transplants, vaccines which have saved 100's of millions of lives.

    Add to it insulin, chemotherapy, new surgery techniques, new imaging techniques in medicine. I practice medicine and science, vast majority of us want only what is best for our patients. Yes, there are bad apples.


    Perhaps that is why people have been living longer since 100 years ago. Now add internet, computers, and cell phones and we have radically changed life.

    You should know you are wrong based on the extreme nature of your position and the painting of everything by a single position.

    You are a Q or Q anon follower right ? You think like those guys as i lurk on their forums for entertainment.

    Everything is corrupted by humans, scientific method is best thing we got, better than relying on the musings of that pillow guy fool or your lord and savior Trump. You still waiting for the plan? You still doing mental gymnastics to reconcile trumpy supporting vaccines and your thought that covid vaccine is a depopulation tool or a control tool. 

    I don't follow anyone. Medicine can keep people alive but it doesn't save anyone. You have to do that yourself. 

    You have lots of science but little wisdom and obviously no truth. You had your rant now, hopefully you feel better but lets get back to the important stuff.. Death penalties.   

     
    Gdemami
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    cheyane said:
    I think when I think back to death penalties the instances of death that have made any impact on me have been the times I almost lost everything in Everquest. I still remember some of them like it happened a week ago. I even remember the people that helped me get the corpses back. I recall how grateful I was and how they were like the very best people in the world to me at that moment. Cannot duplicate that kind of feeling in a game with a light penalty. 

    But the Everquest death penalties have long since gone out of favour not that anyone liked them but I think they represent what community building requires. I personally hated them but I enjoyed the chance to help others recover their corpse.

    My opinion is anything punishing will not work any more in a new game.

    While no one liked the death penalty, it was definitely great for meeting people and building the community....i made more friends in EQ than I did in all other mMOs combined.....This is why I say we need games where the fighting is tough and we have to work together because I have played enough of them to know that easy solo with no death penalty  is not a good solution long term.
    I dont think people actually had a problem with the corpse run. I think the corpse run+exp loss +level loss+ chance to lose all your stuff forever was a bit much for most players. 

    I consider that to be a very reasonable viewpoint that the combination penalty far exceeded most players patience. 

    I mean wow has a toothless corpse run in spirit form. On its own the corpse run is not a big deal. With ways to mitigate the run itself and a failsafe method so you cant lose your stuff i think it offers bang for its buck in ways you suggest. 

    Also keep in mind that a dangerous world and challenging enemies is not the same as you simply needing 4 people to kill anything. 
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,187
    edited April 23
    While no one liked the death penalty, it was definitely great for meeting people and building the community....i made more friends in EQ than I did in all other mMOs combined.....This is why I say we need games where the fighting is tough and we have to work together because I have played enough of them to know that easy solo with no death penalty  is not a good solution long term.
    cheyane said:
    I think when I think back to death penalties the instances of death that have made any impact on me have been the times I almost lost everything in Everquest. I still remember some of them like it happened a week ago. I even remember the people that helped me get the corpses back. I recall how grateful I was and how they were like the very best people in the world to me at that moment. Cannot duplicate that kind of feeling in a game with a light penalty. 

    But the Everquest death penalties have long since gone out of favour not that anyone liked them but I think they represent what community building requires. I personally hated them but I enjoyed the chance to help others recover their corpse.

    My opinion is anything punishing will not work any more in a new game.
    While I see how death penalties could build interdependencies and communities, I am not sure this is necessary. I made the strongest online friendships in GW2, a super casual game with zero death penalties. Some of them hold strong even after we stopped playing the game, chatting every day on Discord and playing other games together, some I even travelled abroad and met in person. After GW2 I played EVE and Albion, two games with harsh death penalties, and while I made some friends, nothing came close.

    Don't get me wrong, I like death penalties for other reasons, and I definitely do not dismiss the experiences of you two. I am wondering though if it mostly depends on the person (I make friends easier in a more relaxing atmosphere) and if there are others like me. Or if it is just a matter of mostly doing this in the very first MMO in which you become deeply invested.
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    tzervo said:
    While no one liked the death penalty, it was definitely great for meeting people and building the community....i made more friends in EQ than I did in all other mMOs combined.....This is why I say we need games where the fighting is tough and we have to work together because I have played enough of them to know that easy solo with no death penalty  is not a good solution long term.
    cheyane said:
    I think when I think back to death penalties the instances of death that have made any impact on me have been the times I almost lost everything in Everquest. I still remember some of them like it happened a week ago. I even remember the people that helped me get the corpses back. I recall how grateful I was and how they were like the very best people in the world to me at that moment. Cannot duplicate that kind of feeling in a game with a light penalty. 

    But the Everquest death penalties have long since gone out of favour not that anyone liked them but I think they represent what community building requires. I personally hated them but I enjoyed the chance to help others recover their corpse.

    My opinion is anything punishing will not work any more in a new game.
    While I see how death penalties could build interdependencies and communities, I am not sure this is necessary. I made the strongest online friendships in GW2, a super casual game with zero death penalties. Some of them hold strong even after we stopped playing the game, chatting every day on Discord and playing other games together, some I even travelled abroad and met in person. After GW2 I played EVE and Albion, two games with harsh death penalties, and while I made some friends, nothing came close.

    Don't get me wrong, I like death penalties for other reasons, and I definitely do not dismiss the experiences of you two. I am wondering though if it mostly depends on the person (I make friends easier in a more relaxing atmosphere) and if there are others like me. Or if it is just a matter of mostly doing this in the very first MMO in which you become deeply invested.
    I dont think death penalties primary purpose is to create interdependency. Its to create atmosphere. You have to risk something to generate that aspect of the atmosphere. Ideally you want to use the smallest penalty possible that uses gameplay mechanisms to generate that atmosphere. If your intent is to punish players things like exp and level loss are your weapons. 

    the corpse run just seems like a perfect fit. 
    tzervo
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,187
    edited April 23
    Rungar said:
    I dont think death penalties primary purpose is to create interdependency. Its to create atmosphere. You have to risk something to generate that aspect of the atmosphere. Ideally you want to use the smallest penalty possible that uses gameplay mechanisms to generate that atmosphere. If your intent is to punish players things like exp and level loss are your weapons. 

    the corpse run just seems like a perfect fit. 
    My opinion has always been that the biggest benefit of death penalties is that they help drive interesting decisions in game. Interdependencies are just an extra side effect, as is community building (to some extend, see my answer above) through them.
  • Mars_OMGMars_OMG Member EpicPosts: 3,375
    For those abilities in the OP  , think the game would have to be a gigantic open world mmo. Having all those option in a zoned mmo. would feel kind of  pointless when it only takes 1 minute to get to your corpse. 

    Now if it would take over 10 minutes to get my corpse then it would feel a lot more useful to have a trinket or trinkets that can be leveled for a corpse run. 
    Rungar
    - abandoning social media could possibly save the world.  
    #RestoreTheSnyderVerse 
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    Mars_OMG said:
    For those abilities in the OP  , think the game would have to be a gigantic open world mmo. Having all those option in a zoned mmo. would feel kind of  pointless when it only takes 1 minute to get to your corpse. 

    Now if it would take over 10 minutes to get my corpse then it would feel a lot more useful to have a trinket or trinkets that can be leveled for a corpse run. 
    i fully agree. Its really just a flavor system to make the run part more interesting/tolerable. I imagine people would collect them all and try them all and settle on the one they liked best. I gave them all downsides for additional gameplay. 

    you have to admit it would be fun to spawn the wolf only to watch it run away as soon as you got attacked. 
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,174
    For me i prefer death penalty to be used as a public measuring stick. Not dying means something, means you are a good player and people know it. 

    I want a game where a person who is max leveled who hasnt died once is revered. 

    So in a game there is a ladder.

    (200 - char level) * deaths = lowest number is best.

    Minimum level to be on ladder is 80% of max level. Character also needs to complete prime solo quests.  So some no lifer doesnt level in places with no risks. 


    tzervo
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,561
    edited April 24
    Sovrath said:
    Rungar said:
    I'd like to see a game take the mmo corpse run mechanic and merge it with the realm swapping of Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver to create new gameplay.

    When you die you enter a comatose state, your spirit respawn in the realm of the dead and you have a different set of progression down there that is linked to your global character progression so you don't waste time in there. But no matter what activities you do down there, your main objective is to find a way to revive and return to the realm of the living before you run out of time.

    For the sake of this example let's say you have 24 hours to leave the realm of the dead (if you log out the timer stops until you log back in), and if you don't leave in 24 hours it's permadeath (or lose levels or items at the devs discretion). You are not supossed to remain in the dead realm, it is an opportunity to get you back to the living. There is no permadeath or penalty in the living world, it only happens in the dead realm if you don't leave it in time.

    EDIT: there could be a rare item in game that upon use, it lets you cheat death once, but i don't trust companies and they would sell that shit in a cash shop.

    This is similar to Mendels idea. I'm not against it but how well do you think it would fare if you had to do this every time? These types of interesting scenarios have to be reserved for very occasional use such as you not being able to retrieve your stuff. Wow already has this i believe but theres nothing to it. Its basically a risk free corpse run. 

    most of the time your going to want to keep rolling, and that's how we got to the no penalty mmo like eso.  You have to be extremely careful when introducing a penalty because players are generally very fickle and thin skinned these days. Theres not but one viking in a thousand.
    Also, one issue I see is if a player is in the middle of a raid or a siege or some group activity where they fall and suddenly they can't rejoin the activity because they have this "other" thing they have to do.

    So while I'm all for adding a completely different way for a player to navigate their return to "life" it doesn't really work for large group activities.

    Raids are usually instanced group based so that type of content is already isolated from the rest of the game so fallen party members respawn inside the instance if not revived by the party healer like they do now.

    As for @Rungar 's comment, It shouldn't feel you have to do it every time. As I mentioned in my post, you can continue your character progression in the death realm, just doing some other objectives native to that realm while you look for ways to revive.

    I remember in Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver the transition back and forth between realms was very seamless and never felt repetitive or tedious. MMO devs could get creative here. But I think they would say it's too much work/risk to get that creative lol.




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