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MMORPG where players have Unique skills

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,355
    The way that it would work is that upon reaching the level cap, your character gets a unique skill with a bunch of random parameters to ensure that the skill really is unique to your character.

    And if you randomly roll a useless unique skill, you're not stuck with a useless character forever.  Rather, there will be an item in the item mall that will allow you to reroll your unique skill.  It's kind of like a loot box except without the loot or the box.

    I'm not saying that that's how it should be implemented.  I'm only saying that that's how it would be implemented.
    AlBQuirky
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    I do rather enjoy cynical people :) I think your right though, 9 out of 10 devs.
    AlBQuirky
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,707
    Nilden said:
    So I watched a bunch of gamer anime like That time I was reincarnated as a Slime, So I'm a spider, so What? Bofuri - I don't want to get hurt, so I will max out my defense.

    They all have the same idea where players get unique skills.

    So the programmer side of me thought it would be kind of a cool gimmick to have an MMORPG where the players can get unique skills/spells and have the game include a unique skill generator. The obvious problem is balance (they are overpowered in the animes) would never be possible, but it could be a fun idea to have unique skills that evolve and designing an underlying system that generates and modifies unique skills based on player choices. 

    I believe Camelot Unchained is aiming for something close to this.


    Like someone said about Ryzom, CU will not have skills, it will have skill components that players can then turn into the skills they want.


    Some, to start with, you might only be able to crafter a low damage, single target attack skill.....but it will have a low cooldown. As you unlock more components, you can make it AoE, add bleeds, add snares, add range etc, but this will cost you more resources and longer cooldowns.



    I'm sure with theorycrafting, most players of the same class will end up with similar skills in the end, but im hoping it leads to some very interesting skills and setups.
    AlBQuirky
  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    Nilden said:
    So I watched a bunch of gamer anime like That time I was reincarnated as a Slime, So I'm a spider, so What? Bofuri - I don't want to get hurt, so I will max out my defense.

    They all have the same idea where players get unique skills.

    So the programmer side of me thought it would be kind of a cool gimmick to have an MMORPG where the players can get unique skills/spells and have the game include a unique skill generator. The obvious problem is balance (they are overpowered in the animes) would never be possible, but it could be a fun idea to have unique skills that evolve and designing an underlying system that generates and modifies unique skills based on player choices. 

    I believe Camelot Unchained is aiming for something close to this.


    Like someone said about Ryzom, CU will not have skills, it will have skill components that players can then turn into the skills they want.


    Some, to start with, you might only be able to crafter a low damage, single target attack skill.....but it will have a low cooldown. As you unlock more components, you can make it AoE, add bleeds, add snares, add range etc, but this will cost you more resources and longer cooldowns.



    I'm sure with theorycrafting, most players of the same class will end up with similar skills in the end, but im hoping it leads to some very interesting skills and setups.

    Building your own spells/abilities may seem unique, but in practice it becomes varying degrees of the tank-mage syndrome.

    Ryzom really showed this; you could build sets of gear with bonuses for whatever role you were going to take on in a group.  Consequently most mid-high level groups that I ever saw were formed at a bank, where everyone could put on the appropriate gear for their role.  Then they adjusted their UI to load the appropriate spells/abilities.  When someone in a critical role left (or went linkdead), the group was essentially disbanded, because pack space was too limited to carry extra gear around.  If you *did* carry an extra set of gear for the role vacated, your group might be able to continue at a reduced efficiency level, and you probably were unable to loot much.  It lead me to mostly disappointing group experiences and a lot of soloing.

    There are downsides to every implementation.



    cameltosisAlBQuirky

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    I think this is why roles should be softer than harder. Everyone should be dps first and foremost, with their secondary role being something else such as crowd controller, healer, or other utility.  (I consider tank to be crowd control). Players could also have a third role. 

    Softer roles means a higher reliance on crowd control but interestingly enough eq1 did it better than everyone else in this regard at least for the magic classes.  I know crowd control was nerfed because of mezmerise but its been a great loss for mmos. It just needed some tweaks rather than almost complete removal.  





    AlBQuirky
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,355
    Mendel said:
    Nilden said:
    So I watched a bunch of gamer anime like That time I was reincarnated as a Slime, So I'm a spider, so What? Bofuri - I don't want to get hurt, so I will max out my defense.

    They all have the same idea where players get unique skills.

    So the programmer side of me thought it would be kind of a cool gimmick to have an MMORPG where the players can get unique skills/spells and have the game include a unique skill generator. The obvious problem is balance (they are overpowered in the animes) would never be possible, but it could be a fun idea to have unique skills that evolve and designing an underlying system that generates and modifies unique skills based on player choices. 

    I believe Camelot Unchained is aiming for something close to this.


    Like someone said about Ryzom, CU will not have skills, it will have skill components that players can then turn into the skills they want.


    Some, to start with, you might only be able to crafter a low damage, single target attack skill.....but it will have a low cooldown. As you unlock more components, you can make it AoE, add bleeds, add snares, add range etc, but this will cost you more resources and longer cooldowns.



    I'm sure with theorycrafting, most players of the same class will end up with similar skills in the end, but im hoping it leads to some very interesting skills and setups.

    Building your own spells/abilities may seem unique, but in practice it becomes varying degrees of the tank-mage syndrome.

    Ryzom really showed this; you could build sets of gear with bonuses for whatever role you were going to take on in a group.  Consequently most mid-high level groups that I ever saw were formed at a bank, where everyone could put on the appropriate gear for their role.  Then they adjusted their UI to load the appropriate spells/abilities.  When someone in a critical role left (or went linkdead), the group was essentially disbanded, because pack space was too limited to carry extra gear around.  If you *did* carry an extra set of gear for the role vacated, your group might be able to continue at a reduced efficiency level, and you probably were unable to loot much.  It lead me to mostly disappointing group experiences and a lot of soloing.

    There are downsides to every implementation.



    That's a problem of restricted bag space, not a problem of itemization.
    MendelAlBQuirkyGdemami
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,707
    Mendel said:
    Nilden said:
    So I watched a bunch of gamer anime like That time I was reincarnated as a Slime, So I'm a spider, so What? Bofuri - I don't want to get hurt, so I will max out my defense.

    They all have the same idea where players get unique skills.

    So the programmer side of me thought it would be kind of a cool gimmick to have an MMORPG where the players can get unique skills/spells and have the game include a unique skill generator. The obvious problem is balance (they are overpowered in the animes) would never be possible, but it could be a fun idea to have unique skills that evolve and designing an underlying system that generates and modifies unique skills based on player choices. 

    I believe Camelot Unchained is aiming for something close to this.


    Like someone said about Ryzom, CU will not have skills, it will have skill components that players can then turn into the skills they want.


    Some, to start with, you might only be able to crafter a low damage, single target attack skill.....but it will have a low cooldown. As you unlock more components, you can make it AoE, add bleeds, add snares, add range etc, but this will cost you more resources and longer cooldowns.



    I'm sure with theorycrafting, most players of the same class will end up with similar skills in the end, but im hoping it leads to some very interesting skills and setups.

    Building your own spells/abilities may seem unique, but in practice it becomes varying degrees of the tank-mage syndrome.

    Ryzom really showed this; you could build sets of gear with bonuses for whatever role you were going to take on in a group.  Consequently most mid-high level groups that I ever saw were formed at a bank, where everyone could put on the appropriate gear for their role.  Then they adjusted their UI to load the appropriate spells/abilities.  When someone in a critical role left (or went linkdead), the group was essentially disbanded, because pack space was too limited to carry extra gear around.  If you *did* carry an extra set of gear for the role vacated, your group might be able to continue at a reduced efficiency level, and you probably were unable to loot much.  It lead me to mostly disappointing group experiences and a lot of soloing.

    There are downsides to every implementation.




    Can definitely see your points.

    I think CU should be a bit different. Each class has a specific role, and the skill components you unlock will be just for your role. A tank will always be a tank, CC will always be CC, so hopefully the tank-mage syndrome will be avoided.


    It will still have the flavour-of-the-month problem, but im hopeful it won't succumb to it too much. There are various design choices that will guard against this problem, such as a focus on depth rather than meta, reworked rewards structure and a lot of interdependence. No-one is going to care if you can do 10dps more than me, because none of the content in the game is going to be dependent on that level of meta.

    Ofc, game hasn't released, so can't judge it yet. It may well end up being just as meta as everything else.
    AlBQuirky
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    edited April 2021
    Quizzical said:
    The way that it would work is that upon reaching the level cap, your character gets a unique skill with a bunch of random parameters to ensure that the skill really is unique to your character.

    And if you randomly roll a useless unique skill, you're not stuck with a useless character forever.  Rather, there will be an item in the item mall that will allow you to reroll your unique skill.  It's kind of like a loot box except without the loot or the box.

    I'm not saying that that's how it should be implemented.  I'm only saying that that's how it would be implemented.
    Whatever your character attains has to matter to the content.If players have unique stats someone will get a stat that just works better than yours and that is not a good idea.So then if the mmorpg is any good at all and a grouping game,you end up with players yelling in open chat.....Need Wizard,must have certain "parameters".

    You cannot do anything to segregate the players,it creates a really bad community/game.
    One of the most important changes i like to see is removing gear as a factor.That alone pretty much removes RMT from the game.

    I don't have the perfect answer right now but i am sure i could design it no problem.

    I feel the whole idea of UNIQUE borders ever close to the ME ME idea,LOOK AT ME,i want everyone to think i am special.

    There is a place to be unique,allow the games to have housing,allow players to build their own structures and homes ,to be creative..I used to love seeing all the different ideas people came up with in building designs within Atlas,i loved seeing al lthe different build ideas for ships and strategy defenses/towers etc etc.Tha tis how players can truly be unique.




    AlBQuirky

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,990
    edited April 2021
    Rungar said:
    Scot said:
    Rungar said:
    Scot said:
    This will never happen as a defining principle of MMOs is that nothing must exist that will make you regret a character building decision. Players who have such regrets can decided to leave and MMOs are now built to insulate themselves against that possibility.

    The homogenising of character classes and everything a player could do, be it craft specialisation, gathering skills and so on started shortly after the millennium. I think the first step in new MMOs was the removal or redundancy of racial bonuses, you might still have them but they were so negligible it made no substantive difference. Since then the direction has been one way; simpler, less choices, less chances to think you have made a mistake.

    If you can retrain the skill, then such character creation/evolution regrets would not be an issue, but then the skills could hardly be called unique.

    There are exceptions, PoE was mentioned, but then I don't even think of that as a MMO, Ryzom sounded a really interesting take. It came out in 2004, does anyone here think a MMO coming out this decade would do the same? It is a great idea but unique skills are just not going to happen unless a studio wants to take a risk, and they never do now days.
    for races i like the idea that you can start different but end the same based on how you played. I like to use triangles for this method, so depending on your race you start at different points in the triangle but through playing the game you can end up anywhere you want in the triangle and its never locked in so you can change directions if you wish.

     The triangle would have three attributes like strength-agility-intelligence. Same with classes/roles Fighter-mage-rogue except with classes/roles you start in the middle. 

    in a way it is unique for both race and role (or spells/skills or equipment) because the triangles are a kind of continuum with many degrees of choice that is constantly adjustable.   
    I like the idea, it it reminds me of those physical CC triangles where you positioned yourself between Athletic, Lean and Bulky. At least I think those were the options, I was always very lean and athletic funnily enough.
    thats exactly what it is! Right from the eso character creation screen with the exception that you have to play the game to change it. 

    using the triangle causes you to specialize in certain ways where one stat or role has to suffer greatly to enhance the other two or one.  This kinda pushes people to have a kinda 1/2/3rd place type of build but lots of permutations within that. I was going to link it to the perk system where the number of total perks you can use was related to how you specialized since the perks in my ideas were incremental and role dependent. 

    so for instance there might be a strength build that is also a mage! or a fighter build that uses intelligence. You could try these out and if they dont work head back the other way. 

    obviously strength and fighter would go together but if designed right there could be different kinds of melee specialists. Not everything has to be viable but how much time will people spend finding out. 
    A lot of table top rpg's use this idea, decided what you want to priorities out of say Physical, Social, Mental. You have a collection of points say 7/5/3 and put them where you want your strengths to be, so Physical is Strength, Dexterity and Stamina. Still, the more possibilities there is create a "wrong" build (even if only in the eyes of the player) the more likely developers are to shy away from this, which is a shame.
    AlBQuirky
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    Thats why it isnt static and has no points to "allocate". You can move away from your stats and build at anytime but it has to be done through the gameplay, not the interface. You dont just press a button and its done. You would have to do things to make it go the other way. 

    You can go from fighter to mage to to rogue but doing this is a bit of a journey as you collect all the requirements to build all the devices to make the perks, gain all the skills and modify them, get all the right equipment.

    It becomes easier to change over time as you build up all that infrastructure because you can collect It all but only deploy so much at a time. Early in the game its an incremental choice ( i want to work on this today!) but late in the game after you've done all the work you can experiment much more quickly. 

    Your base stats are different because they can only be modified through behavior and retain the zero sum. You dont get strong from pressing buttons in the interface, you do it by slapping on heavy armor and weapons and playing the game. As your strength increases something else will atrophy depending on how you play. 

    No change cant be undone and the longer you play the easier it is to change your build. 
    AlBQuirky
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    edited April 2021
    Here's how I would make the role triangle work. You play in one direction and uncover knowledge in that direction of the triangle ( mage/rogue/fighter). When you uncover knowledge (A ha! I figured it out!) you can then build the training device which then gives you a perk.  If you keep moving in the same direction you uncover more knowledge of that role that allows you to uncover additional perks until you have all the knowledge of that role where you can build it all, but only for that role. 

    If your happy with that you can stay there forever. If your not happy with it you can change directions toward one of the other roles and as you do you unlock knowledge in the other roles and you can keep doing this until you uncover the entire triangles knowledge, which will allow you to build all the training devices in the game. This starts fast to get your feet wet but slows down as you play and close in on the perimeter of the triangle.

    You don't get anything for uncovering knowledge other than the "recipe" for the training device or addition. There are no points, it just happens as you play the game. Its an invisible background process that takes into account many variables such as creatures encountered and killed (especially the first one), weapons used, armor used, lands explored, even lore, skills found and used, quests, deaths, and a few other factors. No one factor controls it and the factors can change. There is an inevitability to it though so if you play it will come, for sure. Maybe using your friends archery range will help... Since you can't know you might as well just play. 

    its designed to just "happen" as you play the role. It isn't a level and it cant be grinded. Its a complex algorithm that determines when you've kind of "had enough".  You will not be able to predict when it will happen and its all calculated server-side. 

    once you have the knowledge though you can build the training simulator such as the archery range and the more knowledge you gain the more you can build up the range until you have all the knowledge. Then you just train one time according to your needs and you have your roles build. 

    Once you have done it once you have it forever. Training can fade but knowledge never does and is shared with all your characters.  Each role has their own slew of devices and some devices require 2 roles at the same time since they would have other device requirements.  Also keep in mind that each role has more than one device so say you were a pure fighter you would need the archery range, the target dummy, the sparing partner, and the armory. Each of these has to be upgraded as well. 

    The first device is usually pretty big (an archery range) but the accessories after that wont require a space expansion. They would be parts of that range. 

    Within a role you cannot select it all but a subset of it based on what's important to you and of course you can select perks from other roles you've uncovered and built up as well. 

    As the game matures we will have something called the knowledge wave. This is a giant wave of light that encompasses the lands at a random interval which gives the potential for everyone in the game to use an additional perk. The knowledge is just the knowledge though. Players will have to carry out the knowledge to gain the perk but this only has to be done once and it doesn't matter who does it, everyone gets theoretical access to it from that point on( you still have to do something yourself, its not free). Sometimes its an overall number of perks unlock, other times it might be a new role perk introduced. Still other times it might be a whole new device. 

    Sometimes it might be an impossible raid boss, other times some device might need to be built, or both or something else. It could also be temporary so if its not done everyone's shit out of luck if the next wave hits before its completed. Some of these might be an extreme challenge but all the players (yes, ALL the players PVE) are a team. Whether they act like it or not is up to them. 

    So as time goes on and the game matures the players become more well rounded as well as new things are introduced.  In the first year you could only have one pure role but by the 10th year you might be able to have two full roles active. It kind of grows incrementally. 

    To go with this we also have the Hex wave which changes something in the game such as improving a mob or altering a resource distribution. So maybe before giant frogs weren't a big deal, but after the Hex wave they have poison now and are a bit more of a deal. 

    Sometimes you'll get a knowledge wave and other times you'll get a Hex wave and the Hex wave looks just like the knowledge wave except the final second when it all goes bad, just to torment you. 

    You'll see this big flash of light and it will get stronger and stronger and then you learn the knowledge where the same thing happens with the Hex wave but it turns red in the last few seconds. NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

    So we have a few advantages with this system. Firstly you can do it all with one or many characters and it makes little difference. Every character past your first one will be easier. You can go it along or be a team of characters. Alts take on a new meaning. 

    the next advantage is for the developers. With the wave system they now have the ability to "punish" players if they so choose, but in a gentle and loving way! Whining too hard on the boards? Sending hate mail, being a general asshats. 

    Were not going to necessarily going to ban you. Instead we might have a  Hex wave in your honor, with no props to you. Have a good day! Likewise we can do the opposite with a knowledge wave. 

    Devs should be able to have some fun too. Let a little steam off once and a while and most importantly...were not going to tell you about this system! 

    be good, because the gods can be petty and cruel as much as they can be kind and generous. 
     
    Post edited by Rungar on
    ScotAlBQuirkyGdemami
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    Quizzical said:
    Mendel said:
    Nilden said:
    So I watched a bunch of gamer anime like That time I was reincarnated as a Slime, So I'm a spider, so What? Bofuri - I don't want to get hurt, so I will max out my defense.

    They all have the same idea where players get unique skills.

    So the programmer side of me thought it would be kind of a cool gimmick to have an MMORPG where the players can get unique skills/spells and have the game include a unique skill generator. The obvious problem is balance (they are overpowered in the animes) would never be possible, but it could be a fun idea to have unique skills that evolve and designing an underlying system that generates and modifies unique skills based on player choices. 

    I believe Camelot Unchained is aiming for something close to this.


    Like someone said about Ryzom, CU will not have skills, it will have skill components that players can then turn into the skills they want.


    Some, to start with, you might only be able to crafter a low damage, single target attack skill.....but it will have a low cooldown. As you unlock more components, you can make it AoE, add bleeds, add snares, add range etc, but this will cost you more resources and longer cooldowns.



    I'm sure with theorycrafting, most players of the same class will end up with similar skills in the end, but im hoping it leads to some very interesting skills and setups.

    Building your own spells/abilities may seem unique, but in practice it becomes varying degrees of the tank-mage syndrome.

    Ryzom really showed this; you could build sets of gear with bonuses for whatever role you were going to take on in a group.  Consequently most mid-high level groups that I ever saw were formed at a bank, where everyone could put on the appropriate gear for their role.  Then they adjusted their UI to load the appropriate spells/abilities.  When someone in a critical role left (or went linkdead), the group was essentially disbanded, because pack space was too limited to carry extra gear around.  If you *did* carry an extra set of gear for the role vacated, your group might be able to continue at a reduced efficiency level, and you probably were unable to loot much.  It lead me to mostly disappointing group experiences and a lot of soloing.

    There are downsides to every implementation.



    That's a problem of restricted bag space, not a problem of itemization.

    Agreed.  Bag size is a problem, but it caused this group fragmentation problem when coupled with the design of gear and roles.  The Ryzom build-a-bear approach to skills/spells does not mesh seamlessly with other aspects of the game, causing unintended side effects.  Ultimately, both sides contribute to the issue.



    AlBQuirkyGdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • KingfighterKingfighter Newbie CommonPosts: 1
    Nilden said:
    So I watched a bunch of gamer anime like That time I was reincarnated as a Slime, So I'm a spider, so What? Bofuri - I don't want to get hurt, so I will max out my defense.

    They all have the same idea where players get unique skills.

    So the programmer side of me thought it would be kind of a cool gimmick to have an MMORPG where the players can get unique skills/spells and have the game include a unique skill generator. The obvious problem is balance (they are overpowered in the animes) would never be possible, but it could be a fun idea to have unique skills that evolve and designing an underlying system that generates and modifies unique skills based on player choices. 
    What's about a game, without unique skills, but skill rolls? My idea is to hide the skills in the map and you have to find them. If there is a powerful skill, you have to solve a riddle or defeat a boss etc. Leveling up gives you skill points you can spend on your unique character build and choosing classes like wizard or knight just gives you boost in a certain direction. If you want to learn a really strong skill you just have to fulfill requirements like enough MP. To strengthen your skills you have to use them and e.g. kill some mobs. What's your opinion?
    AlBQuirky
  • DattelisDattelis Member RarePosts: 1,458
    Nilden said:
    So I watched a bunch of gamer anime like That time I was reincarnated as a Slime, So I'm a spider, so What? Bofuri - I don't want to get hurt, so I will max out my defense.

    They all have the same idea where players get unique skills.

    So the programmer side of me thought it would be kind of a cool gimmick to have an MMORPG where the players can get unique skills/spells and have the game include a unique skill generator. The obvious problem is balance (they are overpowered in the animes) would never be possible, but it could be a fun idea to have unique skills that evolve and designing an underlying system that generates and modifies unique skills based on player choices. 

    Personally, I've always viewed Isekai anime more as single-player games adapted into anime instead of what they are trying to do which is a mmorpg adaption. The main reason is because in a mmorpg, everyone is essentially the 'chosen one' and in a way, you kind of are unique (FFXIV is a prime example of this with the player being able to change jobs). Its easier to execute such a taste in a single player game given that the developers only need to focus on one person vs how all people playing feel etc. And I'd argue that its been done before in several single player games, like Wild Arms with the main character being able to transform or even the Dot Hack games.
    AlBQuirky
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085
    Sounds like something thats fun for two hours and then gets old very quick.

    Pretty much like pretty graphics.
    AlBQuirky
  • FielskillFielskill Newbie CommonPosts: 1
    These Guys are insane. TBC Arena Priest Warlock



    Warlock






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