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Is Linear Leveling Progression dead?

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  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    How about infinite journey with no end. As soon as you introduce levels they have to end at some point. If its a world you want to create, why set yourself up for failure?
    AlBQuirky[Deleted User]
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    Rungar said:
    How about infinite journey with no end. As soon as you introduce levels they have to end at some point. If its a world you want to create, why set yourself up for failure?
    There are a number of games with endless leveling....weird
    AlBQuirky

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Kyleran said:
    Rungar said:
    How about infinite journey with no end. As soon as you introduce levels they have to end at some point. If its a world you want to create, why set yourself up for failure?
    There are a number of games with endless leveling....weird

    Pardon my ignorance, but there are? What are they like?
    [Deleted User]

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    AlBQuirky said:
    Kyleran said:
    Rungar said:
    How about infinite journey with no end. As soon as you introduce levels they have to end at some point. If its a world you want to create, why set yourself up for failure?
    There are a number of games with endless leveling....weird

    Pardon my ignorance, but there are? What are they like?
    ESO for one. It's not truly endless but 3600 passive points after max level make it practically so.

    They got that idea, I'm sure, from Diablo 3 and its truly endless Paragon points system.
    AlBQuirky
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • AbimorAbimor Member RarePosts: 872
    Iselin said:
    olepi said:
    I'm one who likes the journey more than the destination. In many games, once I hit max level, I'll start an alt... 
    I do the same. I even go so far as to level in the same zones, even though I have other choices, just to get a good feel for how capable my alt build is compared to my memory of the previous one I took through the same content.

    Repetitious I know, but satisfying my curiosity about relative build strengths and weaknesses trumps the repetitive game play for me.
    I'm not going to lie I have 12 lvl capped guys on ESO 11 of them are in the same faction I have one that was different so there are whole zones that I never went to for quite awhile. 
    AlBQuirky[Deleted User]
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Abimor said:
    Iselin said:
    olepi said:
    I'm one who likes the journey more than the destination. In many games, once I hit max level, I'll start an alt... 
    I do the same. I even go so far as to level in the same zones, even though I have other choices, just to get a good feel for how capable my alt build is compared to my memory of the previous one I took through the same content.

    Repetitious I know, but satisfying my curiosity about relative build strengths and weaknesses trumps the repetitive game play for me.
    I'm not going to lie I have 12 lvl capped guys on ESO 11 of them are in the same faction I have one that was different so there are whole zones that I never went to for quite awhile. 
    I have that many max level too - all of them in the Aldmeri Dominion. I know Auridon like the back of my hand :)
    AlBQuirky[Deleted User]
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    Iselin said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Kyleran said:
    Rungar said:
    How about infinite journey with no end. As soon as you introduce levels they have to end at some point. If its a world you want to create, why set yourself up for failure?
    There are a number of games with endless leveling....weird

    Pardon my ignorance, but there are? What are they like?
    ESO for one. It's not truly endless but 3600 passive points after max level make it practically so.

    They got that idea, I'm sure, from Diablo 3 and its truly endless Paragon points system.
    Yea i still havent re-allocated my points. Good job zos. 
    AlBQuirky
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • eoloeeoloe Member RarePosts: 864
    Po_gg said:
    eoloe said:
    No, leveling is NOT the backbone of RPG. It is just an addictive-immersion-breaking mechanic that was popularized by D&D, and lazily ported to digital games.  
    "Popularized by D&D", that's kinda backwards and makes no sense :)  (since D&D has started all)

    Agree on the other two, the cheap and combat-focused digital porting I'm bashing too since the '90s, and yep, leveling is not the backbone, progression is.
    Besides roleplay, ofc, but that should be obvious.
    eoloe said:
    Progression can anyway be achieved by thousands of other means...
    Yep, and that's how it was in D&D as well... levels weren't the goal, more of a difficulty setting. A level 9 party could face more challenging adventures than a level 3 party.
    And it wasn't a fast track (at least not with good GMs around), you could have month-long sessions whilst on the same level.
    Nope, level system of D&D wasn't immersion-breaking, it was actually pretty good for its time.


    Probably that's why I'm a story-focused player till this day, and love to explore/get lost in the worlds, I've had really good GMs back in the day and got into RPGs with the mindset of "chasing character power increases is NOT the goal".

    Progress the world itself through adventures and stories, progress the character itself through experiences (in the sense of what movie critics used to call "character development"), progress the party (making bonds and friendships), etc., THAT's how we've played RPG at the tables.
    When Amber came to the scene, we even got rid of the dice :) 
    Pure roleplaying.

    Maybe it is my lack of English skills here, but for D&D being the starter, that was exactly my point.

    Roleplay should be the obvious backbone, but often it is not. Even on tabletop I knew so many players addicted to leveling up / gearing up. It is just an expected evolution to see the same in the digital world, if not even more. As a matter of fact often in MMORPGs, classes are just systems dedicated to be optimized through builds.

    Is the leveling system in D&D immersion-breaking? That could be discussed. But I meant its translation in MMORPGs where zones are split by levels, with mobs matching that level. And the mechanic that tells you, ok you reached that level, now move to the next zone! Also is the speed at which levels are crossed from 0 to hero... And I could go on.

    Amber... did not play it much... Sadly, because I had huge twisted plans for my character :)


    Po_ggAlBQuirky
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,387
    Rungar said:
    I think mmo's need to end their association with rpg's and start a new romance with survival type games. 
    I agree. Valheim is a new popular multiplayer Survival game, yet it dont have character levels. It still has a progression system. Character levels aren't needed for a MMO with a large open game world and lore dont need levels as proven by Guildwars2 since they been telling a story over 2 expansions now and not a single new level was added.
    AlBQuirky

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,749
    edited April 2021
    eoloe said:
    Po_gg said:
    "Popularized by D&D", that's kinda backwards and makes no sense :)  (since D&D has started all)
    Maybe it is my lack of English skills here, but for D&D being the starter, that was exactly my point.
    [...]
    Amber... did not play it much... Sadly, because I had huge twisted plans for my character
    Or maybe it's the lack of mine :)  (not a native speaker here)
    I was agreeing mostly, and only had slight issues with that word... so it's basically just a minor semantic issue of mine.

    As I know / translate "popularize", it doesn't fit to that case since it was the starting point. It's more like: "Wow popularised the Wow formulae", -> there are games before, most elements existed too here and there, but after Wow there's the spike of Wow-clones.

    D&D didn't popularise levels, it started the whole format and games after just took over the system. The experimentations with putting levels aside have started though pretty soon - first with "fun" and/or "home-made" games like Paranoia or Gallia, later in more serious games like the Hero engine.


    But, ofc it's maybe just me totally misinterpret a word...

    What twisted plans? Smells like a Logrus-user to me :)

    [Deleted User]AlBQuirky
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    Kyleran said:
    Skill training is basically leveling by a different mechanism.  I would call it player customized leveling.  

    Can be just as grindy.
    But quite often much easier to macro.

    Seems to quite common in skill based games which increase while doing, get out there and punch some bushes.

    ;)
    I totally agree which is why i wouldnt have either traditional levels or skill based levels. They simply arent necessary and are obsolete compared to the base development model.

    -no points to "allocate". If you want a certain skill or attribute, find the resources  you need and install it instead. Then share it with your friends. 
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Po_gg said:
    eoloe said:
    Po_gg said:
    "Popularized by D&D", that's kinda backwards and makes no sense :)  (since D&D has started all)
    Maybe it is my lack of English skills here, but for D&D being the starter, that was exactly my point.
    [...]
    Amber... did not play it much... Sadly, because I had huge twisted plans for my character
    Or maybe it's the lack of mine :)  (not a native speaker here)
    I was agreeing mostly, and only had slight issues with that word... so it's basically just a minor semantic issue of mine.

    As I know / translate "popularize", it doesn't fit to that case since it was the starting point. It's more like: "Wow popularised the Wow formulae", -> there are games before, most elements existed too here and there, but after Wow there's the spike of Wow-clones.

    D&D didn't popularise levels, it started the whole format and games after just took over the system. The experimentations with putting levels aside have started though pretty soon - first with "fun" and/or "home-made" games like Paranoia or Gallia, later in more serious games like the Hero engine.


    But, ofc it's maybe just me totally misinterpret a word...

    What twisted plans? Smells like a Logrus-user to me :)


    If I may jump in here a moment :)

    "Popularize" is what D&D did. It has gone through many variations in its nearly 50 years of existence. It was started by a group of guys who shared the hobby of miniature battle simulations. They wanted to be the heroes in those battles. My point is that D&D helped start tabletop RPGs and made helped make them popular. It went through many ups and downs and today has outlasted many other systems.

    In the game, players started off having to go an actual trainer so leveling was roleplayed. That happens now only if the DM and players decide it will. This part is lost in video games were a level may mean insta-health/mana replenishment, auto skill-ups, and spells that just appear in your book. Immersion breaking? It certainly can be, especially for the players who can't wait to move forward.

    That's all. I just wanted to chime here :)
    [Deleted User]Po_gg[Deleted User]

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,387
    Po_gg said:
    Rungar said:
    are you sick of "levelling" yet? I am.  
    Nope, progression is pretty much the core of RPG.

    If you mean the actual leveling mechanics (without the quote-unquote), still a nope for me. I've played pretty much every kind of level-based, skill-based, entirely levelless, etc. games out there (both tabletop and cRPG), and I'm fine with all of them until there's a good story, a world to explore, and a sort of progression.
    Progression and character levels are not the same. Valheim has no character levels but real progression. 
    KyleranAlBQuirky

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    Po_gg said:
    Rungar said:
    are you sick of "levelling" yet? I am.  
    Nope, progression is pretty much the core of RPG.

    If you mean the actual leveling mechanics (without the quote-unquote), still a nope for me. I've played pretty much every kind of level-based, skill-based, entirely levelless, etc. games out there (both tabletop and cRPG), and I'm fine with all of them until there's a good story, a world to explore, and a sort of progression.
    Progression and character levels are not the same. Valheim has no character levels but real progression. 
    Well i does since it has a skill based system and additionally your crafting and gear has levels as well. 

    but you can play the entire game and never open or bother with ( because i did just that) the skill page it does have an effect but it doesnt affect the gameplay if that makes sense. My opinion it would be better without it.

    One thing it has shown me is that you can have a progression system that is "base based" and it will be a hell of alot more fun and interesting than a level grinder or bash a tree skill based. 

    its not quite there yet but i can see the potential. 
    AlBQuirky
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,387
    Po_gg said:
    For example if I were developing a game I would do away with the 1-50 level method and instead introduce Grand Quests.  You can have multiple per zone and upon completion you are presented with a choice.  For example you would recieve a unique weapon or armor that have rulesets or set bonuses, a skill, or a skill augment, or a skill level etc.  So the choices you make throughout the gameworld would shape the class you play.  Dont kill me its just a brainstorm.
    Wait, lemme go through it, so...
    No levels,
    long (-er than usual, multiple stages) quests,
    at the end of those you get unique gear piece (at the end of Issues),
    or could pick a skill (from the xp after general quests),
    and with those unlocked skills you shaped the "class" you play (since it was actually classless).

    You've pretty much described TSW...

    Guess what, it was "too difficult" (lol) so they've relaunched it with levels, level gates on quests and the world, item scores and gear grind.
    Never played TSW, but did you like the old version or new version?SW had character levels they just wasn't displayed like normal.  Thats a bad example. 

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,387
    ILLISET said:
    Maurgrim said:
    Levels 1-50 type of MMO were you have to progress thrue a set of zones in your level range are boring as fuck.
    Thats one of many reasons I play ESO, ESO don't have that shit.
    ESO is better somehow?  Auto pathing directly to your next quest location?  Lmfao ESO is a dog'shitter game get out of here with that bs. 

    I play Guildwars2.  It has 80 levels back in vanilla.  But everything since then been the same level. If a programmer can take away the character levels , and it would be the exact same game as a endgame character.  Nothing would change. Levels only restrict the gameplay choices. It doesn't teach people how to play at all since its a time consumption not a player skill development.
    AlBQuirky

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    ILLISET said:
    Maurgrim said:
    Levels 1-50 type of MMO were you have to progress thrue a set of zones in your level range are boring as fuck.
    Thats one of many reasons I play ESO, ESO don't have that shit.
    ESO is better somehow?  Auto pathing directly to your next quest location?  Lmfao ESO is a dog'shitter game get out of here with that bs. 

    I play Guildwars2.  It has 80 levels back in vanilla.  But everything since then been the same level. If a programmer can take away the character levels , and it would be the exact same game as a endgame character.  Nothing would change. Levels only restrict the gameplay choices. It doesn't teach people how to play at all since its a time consumption not a player skill development.
    Ive come to believe that a character is a building process but just grinding out enemies or bashing a stump over and over is not a good implementation of the building process. 


    MendelAlBQuirky
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • KroxMalonKroxMalon Member UncommonPosts: 608
    Levelling, used to mean something. The trend of "give it to me now" & quick dopamine hits has ruined this feature. Striving for a new level and all that it entails is what used to mean something, but that is now gone.
    AlBQuirkyTheocritus
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    Remove the pain and suffering and you remove the value. Thats what happened. Rather than bring back the pain ( i.e level loss) maybe its time to move on altogether.
    AlBQuirky
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,600
    edited April 2021
    I am an addicted gamer so when people talk about "leveling"... It to me is just extended tutorial.

    Most mmorpg take no time to make it to max level...  at least for an addicted mmorpg player.  And most of my time is spent after I reach max level.  

    but I get why the perspective is totally different.  Since if your entire playing time in a mmorpg isn't much...  Most is spent in the leveling phase.  
    KyleranAlBQuirky
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    Ungood said:
    Kyleran said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Honestly.. if I was going to make some new wave MMO.

    I would removed all numbers from the UI, and you would just be given Schematics of Damage, and Icons to reparent health, heart beat, hunger, fatigue, body temp, etc,  and the like, much like how would know about your own body functions.

    Everything else, would be hidden, and you would get descriptive words, like: an Butchers Cleaver has Sharp Slice, Decent Impact, Poor Pricing, weighs 1.2 Lbs, if present you would be able to know the Crafters Brand/mark, and depending on how well your character knows a Butcher Cleaver, You would be able to guess the quality from "Pathetic" to "Masterful".

    You ability to improve your knowledge on the quality of a Butchers Cleaver would come by, by using it, either as a weapon, or as a butcher cutting meat, taking a class on it (Study), knowing something similar, ergo, doing metal smiting or knife making, these would be things that would improve your characters knowledge.

    Equally so, if you wanted to use it as a tool/weapon, using it as such, be it as a tool, to butcher meat, or a weapon, would both improve your overall skill, which you would not get a number for, you would get a Word, like "Pathetic" to "Masterful" but.. no numbers.

    This way, as you play the game, you would improve, but you would do so in a means that made sense in a RP like environment.

    After all, levels, skill ranks and the like, are just numbers for us players to use, to grasp in a way we can understand our own progress.

    You just described UO .. they have been doing that for near 24 years now
    and it's also what Dragonrealms has been doing, for a little longer.

    I no longer play DragonRealms for the same reasons why I have no urge to play UO, Full Loot Open World PvP with vast power imbalances just flat out sucks IMHO.

    If you enjoy that, then enjoy. But much like people who like Pineapple on their Pizza and offer it to me.. I may like Pizza, but I am going to hard pass on that kind of Pizza. But the good side is, there is more for you.

    you can play UO and stay in Trammel and not have to worry about anyone harming your pixels
    Well yeah, just like if you play smart you can almost totally avoid being someone else's content in EVE, people do it regularly, but there's always more "reasons" why people won't play it, even I do the same.

    You can talk yourself out of playing any game if you try hard enough.

    ;)
    Actually every game goes in reverse of this, where every game you opt to play, you have to talk yourself into playing it.

    I mean even if we remove things like Cost, ergo, buying the game, paying a sub and all this, even if we didn't discuss the fiscal walls to getting into a new game, and lets just go with the fact that you have the hardware and software already set up to accommodate the additional games as well, so these are no longer walls, which ordinally are things every gamer has to weigh into when they opt to play a new game, even more so, if the game has a high wall to entry, like a box fee, or a needed sub. So, lets say, as a gamer, you have already talked yourself INTO these investments.

    Because that is what you need to do with every new game.. Talk yourself into playing them, giving them a try.

    Even after all the above, You still have to justify taking time away from some other part of your life to play this game. Be that family time, sleep, other games you might be playing, this new game will take up a chunk of time that will need to be taken from some other events you have going on in your life currently.

    And you will need to talk yourself into making those changes to play that game. And the more things about said game that might not appeal to you, the harder it is to talk yourself into playing it, especially if you have some other games you are already enjoying, or maybe taken up a whole different hobby and opted to lay off gaming as a whole.

    As far as leaving a game goes, I was reading a article that most MMO players admit to playing a game long after they have ceased to enjoy playing it. Which means, they are not talking themselves out of a game, they already want to leave it, they have already passed the point of not-having fun. So it's really a matter of finally getting fed up enough to the point that whatever was driving you away, exceeded what was holding you to the game.

    So you're not really talking yourself out of anything, when you need to sit down and talk yourself out of something, that means you are enjoying it or want it, and are trying to justify not doing it.
    I'll concede your point, however in my case some of what you elaborated  on really doesn't fit.

    I've  been gaming for so long the time is more or less pre-allocated, I've  got nothing else really competing for this "slot" besides gaming.

    As you know, in my case "There can be only One! game that I'm playing  at any given time, so rarely  do I feel the desire to play anything else as long as I'm enjoying  my current one.

    So it really comes down to a more binary choice, am I having  "fun" in my current game?  For the most part if I have to ask myself  this question  for more than a few days I almost immediately stop playing.

    I has been playing FO76 for almost 18 months straight when I not only completed the current season very early on my level 600 plus main but also did the same on a new alt I started at Christmas and got it  to over level 200.

    Just like that the fun evaporated and I stopped cold.  Didn't have a clue what to try next, decided to return to ESO after a seven year hiatus  about 6 weeks ago.

    Already hit level 50 /CP34 and starting to wonder what I'm really working for right now.

    I guess to complete at least a CP 160 build and see if I can finally master tanking in a MMORPG, a role I've never really attempted, much less mastered.

    But if the music stops...well, you know.

    ;)




    UngoodAlBQuirkySKurj

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    Kyleran said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Honestly.. if I was going to make some new wave MMO.

    I would removed all numbers from the UI, and you would just be given Schematics of Damage, and Icons to reparent health, heart beat, hunger, fatigue, body temp, etc,  and the like, much like how would know about your own body functions.

    Everything else, would be hidden, and you would get descriptive words, like: an Butchers Cleaver has Sharp Slice, Decent Impact, Poor Pricing, weighs 1.2 Lbs, if present you would be able to know the Crafters Brand/mark, and depending on how well your character knows a Butcher Cleaver, You would be able to guess the quality from "Pathetic" to "Masterful".

    You ability to improve your knowledge on the quality of a Butchers Cleaver would come by, by using it, either as a weapon, or as a butcher cutting meat, taking a class on it (Study), knowing something similar, ergo, doing metal smiting or knife making, these would be things that would improve your characters knowledge.

    Equally so, if you wanted to use it as a tool/weapon, using it as such, be it as a tool, to butcher meat, or a weapon, would both improve your overall skill, which you would not get a number for, you would get a Word, like "Pathetic" to "Masterful" but.. no numbers.

    This way, as you play the game, you would improve, but you would do so in a means that made sense in a RP like environment.

    After all, levels, skill ranks and the like, are just numbers for us players to use, to grasp in a way we can understand our own progress.

    You just described UO .. they have been doing that for near 24 years now
    and it's also what Dragonrealms has been doing, for a little longer.

    I no longer play DragonRealms for the same reasons why I have no urge to play UO, Full Loot Open World PvP with vast power imbalances just flat out sucks IMHO.

    If you enjoy that, then enjoy. But much like people who like Pineapple on their Pizza and offer it to me.. I may like Pizza, but I am going to hard pass on that kind of Pizza. But the good side is, there is more for you.

    you can play UO and stay in Trammel and not have to worry about anyone harming your pixels
    Well yeah, just like if you play smart you can almost totally avoid being someone else's content in EVE, people do it regularly, but there's always more "reasons" why people won't play it, even I do the same.

    You can talk yourself out of playing any game if you try hard enough.

    ;)
    Actually every game goes in reverse of this, where every game you opt to play, you have to talk yourself into playing it.

    I mean even if we remove things like Cost, ergo, buying the game, paying a sub and all this, even if we didn't discuss the fiscal walls to getting into a new game, and lets just go with the fact that you have the hardware and software already set up to accommodate the additional games as well, so these are no longer walls, which ordinally are things every gamer has to weigh into when they opt to play a new game, even more so, if the game has a high wall to entry, like a box fee, or a needed sub. So, lets say, as a gamer, you have already talked yourself INTO these investments.

    Because that is what you need to do with every new game.. Talk yourself into playing them, giving them a try.

    Even after all the above, You still have to justify taking time away from some other part of your life to play this game. Be that family time, sleep, other games you might be playing, this new game will take up a chunk of time that will need to be taken from some other events you have going on in your life currently.

    And you will need to talk yourself into making those changes to play that game. And the more things about said game that might not appeal to you, the harder it is to talk yourself into playing it, especially if you have some other games you are already enjoying, or maybe taken up a whole different hobby and opted to lay off gaming as a whole.

    As far as leaving a game goes, I was reading a article that most MMO players admit to playing a game long after they have ceased to enjoy playing it. Which means, they are not talking themselves out of a game, they already want to leave it, they have already passed the point of not-having fun. So it's really a matter of finally getting fed up enough to the point that whatever was driving you away, exceeded what was holding you to the game.

    So you're not really talking yourself out of anything, when you need to sit down and talk yourself out of something, that means you are enjoying it or want it, and are trying to justify not doing it.
    I'll concede your point, however in my case some of what you elaborated  on really doesn't fit.

    I've  been gaming for so long the time is more or less pre-allocated, I've  got nothing else really competing for this "slot" besides gaming.

    As you know, in my case "There can be only One! game that I'm playing  at any given time, so rarely  do I feel the desire to play anything else as long as I'm enjoying  my current one.

    So it really comes down to a more binary choice, am I having  "fun" in my current game?  For the most part if I have to ask myself  this question  for more than a few days I almost immediately stop playing.

    I has been playing FO76 for almost 18 months straight when I not only completed the current season very early on my level 600 plus main but also did the same on a new alt I started at Christmas and got it  to over level 200.

    Just like that the fun evaporated and I stopped cold.  Didn't have a clue what to try next, decided to return to ESO after a seven year hiatus  about 6 weeks ago.

    Already hit level 50 /CP34 and starting to wonder what I'm really working for right now.

    I guess to complete at least a CP 160 build and see if I can finally master tanking in a MMORPG, a role I've never really attempted, much less mastered.

    But if the music stops...well, you know.

    ;)




    if your on pc na i can help if you want it. 
    Kyleran
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    AlBQuirky said:
    Po_gg said:
    eoloe said:
    Po_gg said:
    "Popularized by D&D", that's kinda backwards and makes no sense :)  (since D&D has started all)
    Maybe it is my lack of English skills here, but for D&D being the starter, that was exactly my point.
    [...]
    Amber... did not play it much... Sadly, because I had huge twisted plans for my character
    Or maybe it's the lack of mine :)  (not a native speaker here)
    I was agreeing mostly, and only had slight issues with that word... so it's basically just a minor semantic issue of mine.

    As I know / translate "popularize", it doesn't fit to that case since it was the starting point. It's more like: "Wow popularised the Wow formulae", -> there are games before, most elements existed too here and there, but after Wow there's the spike of Wow-clones.

    D&D didn't popularise levels, it started the whole format and games after just took over the system. The experimentations with putting levels aside have started though pretty soon - first with "fun" and/or "home-made" games like Paranoia or Gallia, later in more serious games like the Hero engine.


    But, ofc it's maybe just me totally misinterpret a word...

    What twisted plans? Smells like a Logrus-user to me :)


    If I may jump in here a moment :)

    "Popularize" is what D&D did. It has gone through many variations in its nearly 50 years of existence. It was started by a group of guys who shared the hobby of miniature battle simulations. They wanted to be the heroes in those battles. My point is that D&D helped start tabletop RPGs and made helped make them popular. It went through many ups and downs and today has outlasted many other systems.

    In the game, players started off having to go an actual trainer so leveling was roleplayed. That happens now only if the DM and players decide it will. This part is lost in video games were a level may mean insta-health/mana replenishment, auto skill-ups, and spells that just appear in your book. Immersion breaking? It certainly can be, especially for the players who can't wait to move forward.

    That's all. I just wanted to chime here :)
    To be fair, Gary Gygax in the prefix of the Dungeons Masters Guide, said that levels were a over simplified system to easily explain the complex idea of just getting better at your craft, in a way that made for fun and faster paced gameplay, this also applied to many of the Mechanics of D&D, like AC, HP, Thac0, and the like. It was done as it was done, to keep things simple and easy to handle at the gaming table.

    This is also why Gary had said that the rules could be treated more as a foundation and not an absolute, and that the GM was not only free to develop their own House Rules to handle more complex situations, they were encouraged to do so.

    This was seen in some of the Online Muds, like Gemstone, where they were using the base idea of levels and stats, but also, using a more complex system to chart and handle character advancement and progression.

    Which brings us to Modern MMO's with how far our ability has come to handle complex calculations could generate far more realistic with really great graphics to boot, on how they handle character progression, and yet most of them fall back on D&D over simplified system, and even in some cases, being LESS complex than D&D in a general sense.

    Not sure how and why that one happened.
    Po_ggAlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member EpicPosts: 1,144
    edited April 2021
    I try to level in the gym... it sucks and is a grind (for me ar least).

      Do to limited hours, you have to pick your goals and routines carefully and diet( food).  

    Everyone seems to have different character goals/builds they are going for too. 

    Progress can be measured though... in higher weights lifted, extra miles run, fat loss, lower hypertension... etc.

    I guess this I'd skill based training 

    Same for real world martial arts/self defense (which I think everyone should try... I love it).
    UngoodAlBQuirkyKyleran
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,387
    Rungar said:
    Remove the pain and suffering and you remove the value. Thats what happened. Rather than bring back the pain ( i.e level loss) maybe its time to move on altogether.
    I disagree again. The Adventure itself is whats fun. Not the pain and suffering. Because a crafter may enjoy nothing but exploring the world for resources and making stuff to sale. not a single pain or suffering needed for that. 
    AlBQuirky

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

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