actually it has more to do with the fantasy theme as opposed to levels. Players overwhelmingly prefer the fantasy theme to any other theme for a mmo. Look at any mmo that has ever existed. Even star wars has a rough ride and thats a huge name. Fallout will never be as popular as Elder Scrolls.
players will usually choose the fantasy theme over the science fiction, over and over again. Unfortunately almost all the offerings are "standard" level grinders but the success of games like Valheim shows that players want more than levels. They want to build bases, extensive crafting, worlds that can change or be modified.
EQnext was on the right track before it got scuttled but that technology will be viable soon.
Leveling is the syndrome of starting as a boy and becoming a hero, which is good in the teenager's psyche but sad for grown ups.
No, leveling is NOT the backbone of RPG. It is just an addictive-immersion-breaking mechanic that was popularized by D&D, and lazily ported to digital games.
The backbone of RPG is not "level" but "Role" (the "R" in R.P.G), which means playing a role in character and not being the group "healer", DPS, or "Tank".
Progression can anyway be achieved by thousands of other means...
Can you name one that does not involve numbers of some kind?
Why is Iron better leather?
Why is steel better iron?
How does one improve their craft mastery?
Do attributes count? (Strength, Intelligence, Dexterity...)
Even in the "real world", we go through grade school, (used to be) junior high school, high school, college/university. Then you get to advanced degrees for more "progress." You discover new land and "progress through the world", yes?
Progress is in essence just advancement. In "game terms" that means simply numbers. Luckily, MMORPGs do NOT start us out as children (I think)
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Leveling is the syndrome of starting as a boy and becoming a hero, which is good in the teenager's psyche but sad for grown ups.
No, leveling is NOT the backbone of RPG. It is just an addictive-immersion-breaking mechanic that was popularized by D&D, and lazily ported to digital games.
The backbone of RPG is not "level" but "Role" (the "R" in R.P.G), which means playing a role in character and not being the group "healer", DPS, or "Tank".
Progression can anyway be achieved by thousands of other means...
Can you name one that does not involve numbers of some kind?
Why is Iron better leather?
Why is steel better iron?
How does one improve their craft mastery?
Do attributes count? (Strength, Intelligence, Dexterity...)
Even in the "real world", we go through grade school, (used to be) junior high school, high school, college/university. Then you get to advanced degrees for more "progress." You discover new land and "progress through the world", yes?
Progress is in essence just advancement. In "game terms" that means simply numbers. Luckily, MMORPGs do NOT start us out as children (I think)
This is where the lazy comes into play. We know that everything goes by the numbers in the end, but its their job to hide much of this within the gameplay. That being said iron doesnt have to be better than leather. Leather could be much faster and lighter than iron. all things can have specific advantages and disadvantages. Its really up to the developers to make these interactions strategic rather than linear.
Yes questing for levels is dead and damn near killed the genre
Kinda like subs!
Yet again those same 4 or 5 games I mentioned employ a subscription in some manner, weird.
How many MMORPGs released since 2005 without levels or subs have been even mildly successful? A handful at best, sort of like games with levels / subs actually.
I think there might be a few (sic) more factors which lead the market to where it is today and eliminating either or both won't breath new life into it.
Here's a test, EVE is a well made MMORPG which is actively being developed which has no questing to level or mandatory subs, so why aren't you both playing it? (Come to think of it, why am I no longer playing?)
Oh yeah, other "reasons" come to mind, but certainly nothing to do with the two mentioned here.
For the same reason I am not playing UO, I am not someone else's content.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Leveling is the syndrome of starting as a boy and becoming a hero, which is good in the teenager's psyche but sad for grown ups.
No, leveling is NOT the backbone of RPG. It is just an addictive-immersion-breaking mechanic that was popularized by D&D, and lazily ported to digital games.
The backbone of RPG is not "level" but "Role" (the "R" in R.P.G), which means playing a role in character and not being the group "healer", DPS, or "Tank".
Progression can anyway be achieved by thousands of other means...
Can you name one that does not involve numbers of some kind?
Why is Iron better leather?
Why is steel better iron?
How does one improve their craft mastery?
Do attributes count? (Strength, Intelligence, Dexterity...)
Even in the "real world", we go through grade school, (used to be) junior high school, high school, college/university. Then you get to advanced degrees for more "progress." You discover new land and "progress through the world", yes?
Progress is in essence just advancement. In "game terms" that means simply numbers. Luckily, MMORPGs do NOT start us out as children (I think)
This is where the lazy comes into play. We know that everything goes by the numbers in the end, but its their job to hide much of this within the gameplay. That being said iron doesnt have to be better than leather. Leather could be much faster and lighter than iron. all things can have specific advantages and disadvantages. Its really up to the developers to make these interactions strategic rather than linear.
You make some good points. I would also like to see "less concrete numbers" in descriptions. Descriptors like solid vs flexible, faster vs slower, weightier vs lighter.
I'm not "well-versed" in all MMOs, but in EQ1 there was a chance with each crafting attempt your skill could improve. It was an RNG roll. I'd like to see factors like bonuses/minuses adjust that roll so that it's not a matter of craft "X" a specified number and gain an improvement.
It's not a perfect system. Nothing is. My "perfect" is probably not your "perfect" or anyone eles's "perfect." But game making is a marriage of reality and fun
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I think there is a numbers sweetspot. You want the minimum numbers required so people understand but you need a certain amount or it turns players off. Similarly too much stats turns people off as well. Knowing where that line is, is the difference between a mediocre designer and a great designer.
to me, as long as its situational rather than incremental, they are already on the right road for a persistent world.
Yes questing for levels is dead and damn near killed the genre
Kinda like subs!
Yet again those same 4 or 5 games I mentioned employ a subscription in some manner, weird.
I think it is not a matter of "they are top because they have subs" but the inverse: "they can demand subs because they are top".
Are they top because they are good or are they top because people are bored as shit and have nothing better to do with their time. For those who like mmos, competition is very weak and the result is more weak products.
until some nobody turns over the table, of course.
Skill training is basically leveling by a different mechanism. I would call it player customized leveling.
Can be just as grindy.
But quite often much easier to macro.
Seems to quite common in skill based games which increase while doing, get out there and punch some bushes.
Exactly how players trained weapons in WoW at launch, an likely again with "Classic."
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
So in summary... leveling sucks and killed the genre as did subs and only the weak minded sheep enjoy leveling and subs... did I miss anything?
Oh... and Valheim rules.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
So in summary... leveling sucks and killed the genre as did subs and only the weak minded sheep enjoy leveling and subs... did I miss anything?
Oh... and Valheim rules.
You might have missed one or two things.
Yes skill based levelling sucks if it causes you to pound a tree for 3 days. We all pretty much agree to that. Why even have it?
I dont know about the subs. They were always pretty fair all things considered.
Valheim is an unfinished early access game but even with 5 fucking developers... you can see that good ideas and attention to detail trumps millions of dollars and shareholder's sons designers.
So in summary... leveling sucks and killed the genre as did subs and only the weak minded sheep enjoy leveling and subs... did I miss anything?
Oh... and Valheim rules.
You might have missed one or two things.
Yes skill based levelling sucks if it causes you to pound a tree for 3 days. We all pretty much agree to that. Why even have it?
I dont know about the subs. They were always pretty fair all things considered.
Valheim is an unfinished early access game but even with 5 fucking developers... you can see that good ideas and attention to detail trumps millions of dollars and shareholder's sons designers.
Yeah I get it. You prefer the progression grind disguised as something other than levels. Personally I could care less if it's levels or something else that replaces those pesky level numbers since the whole point of these games is progression.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
So in summary... leveling sucks and killed the genre as did subs and only the weak minded sheep enjoy leveling and subs... did I miss anything?
Oh... and Valheim rules.
You might have missed one or two things.
Yes skill based levelling sucks if it causes you to pound a tree for 3 days. We all pretty much agree to that. Why even have it?
I dont know about the subs. They were always pretty fair all things considered.
Valheim is an unfinished early access game but even with 5 fucking developers... you can see that good ideas and attention to detail trumps millions of dollars and shareholder's sons designers.
Yeah I get it. You prefer the progression grind disguised as something other than levels. Personally I could care less if it's levels or something else that replaces those pesky level numbers since the whole point of these games is progression.
For me at least progression, or the illusion of it is the first pillar for any game I play.
I can't do activities just for the "fun" of it, or at least not for very long, the lure of the hamster wheel is just too strong.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So in summary... leveling sucks and killed the genre as did subs and only the weak minded sheep enjoy leveling and subs... did I miss anything?
Oh... and Valheim rules.
You might have missed one or two things.
Yes skill based levelling sucks if it causes you to pound a tree for 3 days. We all pretty much agree to that. Why even have it?
I dont know about the subs. They were always pretty fair all things considered.
Valheim is an unfinished early access game but even with 5 fucking developers... you can see that good ideas and attention to detail trumps millions of dollars and shareholder's sons designers.
Yeah I get it. You prefer the progression grind disguised as something other than levels. Personally I could care less if it's levels or something else that replaces those pesky level numbers since the whole point of these games is progression.
For me at least progression, or the illusion of it is the first pillar for any game I play.
I can't do activities just for the "fun" of it, or at least not for very long, the lure of the hamster wheel is just too strong.
There's this whole other gaming genre out there that might just suit you: ARPGs.
Last I heard it's not a dying genre, quite the opposite. Guess what those are all about... you, grinding progression with levels, with skill unlocks and with gear.
Hamsters rejoice!
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Leveling has to be about fun content you experience instead of "let's grind mundane content to level X0 so I can play endgame dungeons and PvP".
Isn't end game just another grind?
But like you say, it's all about what you find "fun" and that is extremely subjective. Personally I find end game PvE a not so fun grind as well as some types of PvP - the 15 minute match variety.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I would say they leveling method is tried and true formula for developers to use. However I do feel like it is a missed opportunity for creative development. For example if I were developing a game I would do away with the 1-50 level method and instead introduce Grand Quests. You can have multiple per zone and upon completion you are presented with a choice. For example you would recieve a unique weapon or armor that have rulesets or set bonuses, a skill, or a skill augment, or a skill level etc. So the choices you make throughout the gameworld would shape the class you play. Dont kill me its just a brainstorm.
Honestly.. if I was going to make some new wave MMO.
I would removed all numbers from the UI, and you would just be given Schematics of Damage, and Icons to reparent health, heart beat, hunger, fatigue, body temp, etc, and the like, much like how would know about your own body functions.
Everything else, would be hidden, and you would get descriptive words, like: an Butchers Cleaver has Sharp Slice, Decent Impact, Poor Pricing, weighs 1.2 Lbs, if present you would be able to know the Crafters Brand/mark, and depending on how well your character knows a Butcher Cleaver, You would be able to guess the quality from "Pathetic" to "Masterful".
You ability to improve your knowledge on the quality of a Butchers Cleaver would come by, by using it, either as a weapon, or as a butcher cutting meat, taking a class on it (Study), knowing something similar, ergo, doing metal smiting or knife making, these would be things that would improve your characters knowledge.
Equally so, if you wanted to use it as a tool/weapon, using it as such, be it as a tool, to butcher meat, or a weapon, would both improve your overall skill, which you would not get a number for, you would get a Word, like "Pathetic" to "Masterful" but.. no numbers.
This way, as you play the game, you would improve, but you would do so in a means that made sense in a RP like environment.
After all, levels, skill ranks and the like, are just numbers for us players to use, to grasp in a way we can understand our own progress.
You just described UO .. they have been doing that for near 24 years now
and it's also what Dragonrealms has been doing, for a little longer.
I no longer play DragonRealms for the same reasons why I have no urge to play UO, Full Loot Open World PvP with vast power imbalances just flat out sucks IMHO.
If you enjoy that, then enjoy. But much like people who like Pineapple on their Pizza and offer it to me.. I may like Pizza, but I am going to hard pass on that kind of Pizza. But the good side is, there is more for you.
you can play UO and stay in Trammel and not have to worry about anyone harming your pixels
I would say they leveling method is tried and true formula for developers to use. However I do feel like it is a missed opportunity for creative development. For example if I were developing a game I would do away with the 1-50 level method and instead introduce Grand Quests. You can have multiple per zone and upon completion you are presented with a choice. For example you would recieve a unique weapon or armor that have rulesets or set bonuses, a skill, or a skill augment, or a skill level etc. So the choices you make throughout the gameworld would shape the class you play. Dont kill me its just a brainstorm.
Honestly.. if I was going to make some new wave MMO.
I would removed all numbers from the UI, and you would just be given Schematics of Damage, and Icons to reparent health, heart beat, hunger, fatigue, body temp, etc, and the like, much like how would know about your own body functions.
Everything else, would be hidden, and you would get descriptive words, like: an Butchers Cleaver has Sharp Slice, Decent Impact, Poor Pricing, weighs 1.2 Lbs, if present you would be able to know the Crafters Brand/mark, and depending on how well your character knows a Butcher Cleaver, You would be able to guess the quality from "Pathetic" to "Masterful".
You ability to improve your knowledge on the quality of a Butchers Cleaver would come by, by using it, either as a weapon, or as a butcher cutting meat, taking a class on it (Study), knowing something similar, ergo, doing metal smiting or knife making, these would be things that would improve your characters knowledge.
Equally so, if you wanted to use it as a tool/weapon, using it as such, be it as a tool, to butcher meat, or a weapon, would both improve your overall skill, which you would not get a number for, you would get a Word, like "Pathetic" to "Masterful" but.. no numbers.
This way, as you play the game, you would improve, but you would do so in a means that made sense in a RP like environment.
After all, levels, skill ranks and the like, are just numbers for us players to use, to grasp in a way we can understand our own progress.
You just described UO .. they have been doing that for near 24 years now
and it's also what Dragonrealms has been doing, for a little longer.
I no longer play DragonRealms for the same reasons why I have no urge to play UO, Full Loot Open World PvP with vast power imbalances just flat out sucks IMHO.
If you enjoy that, then enjoy. But much like people who like Pineapple on their Pizza and offer it to me.. I may like Pizza, but I am going to hard pass on that kind of Pizza. But the good side is, there is more for you.
you can play UO and stay in Trammel and not have to worry about anyone harming your pixels
Well yeah, just like if you play smart you can almost totally avoid being someone else's content in EVE, people do it regularly, but there's always more "reasons" why people won't play it, even I do the same.
You can talk yourself out of playing any game if you try hard enough.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm one who likes the journey more than the destination. In many games, once I hit max level, I'll start an alt. I don't enjoy raiding that much. PvP can be fun, but I'm not willing to grind enough to be really competitive.
RPGs and MMORPGs are some of my favorite games, and for me the fun is seeing how a character built *like this* plays. I also like world immersion, just being in the world is part of the fun.
I'm one who likes the journey more than the destination. In many games, once I hit max level, I'll start an alt...
I do the same. I even go so far as to level in the same zones, even though I have other choices, just to get a good feel for how capable my alt build is compared to my memory of the previous one I took through the same content.
Repetitious I know, but satisfying my curiosity about relative build strengths and weaknesses trumps the repetitive game play for me.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I would say they leveling method is tried and true formula for developers to use. However I do feel like it is a missed opportunity for creative development. For example if I were developing a game I would do away with the 1-50 level method and instead introduce Grand Quests. You can have multiple per zone and upon completion you are presented with a choice. For example you would recieve a unique weapon or armor that have rulesets or set bonuses, a skill, or a skill augment, or a skill level etc. So the choices you make throughout the gameworld would shape the class you play. Dont kill me its just a brainstorm.
Honestly.. if I was going to make some new wave MMO.
I would removed all numbers from the UI, and you would just be given Schematics of Damage, and Icons to reparent health, heart beat, hunger, fatigue, body temp, etc, and the like, much like how would know about your own body functions.
Everything else, would be hidden, and you would get descriptive words, like: an Butchers Cleaver has Sharp Slice, Decent Impact, Poor Pricing, weighs 1.2 Lbs, if present you would be able to know the Crafters Brand/mark, and depending on how well your character knows a Butcher Cleaver, You would be able to guess the quality from "Pathetic" to "Masterful".
You ability to improve your knowledge on the quality of a Butchers Cleaver would come by, by using it, either as a weapon, or as a butcher cutting meat, taking a class on it (Study), knowing something similar, ergo, doing metal smiting or knife making, these would be things that would improve your characters knowledge.
Equally so, if you wanted to use it as a tool/weapon, using it as such, be it as a tool, to butcher meat, or a weapon, would both improve your overall skill, which you would not get a number for, you would get a Word, like "Pathetic" to "Masterful" but.. no numbers.
This way, as you play the game, you would improve, but you would do so in a means that made sense in a RP like environment.
After all, levels, skill ranks and the like, are just numbers for us players to use, to grasp in a way we can understand our own progress.
You just described UO .. they have been doing that for near 24 years now
and it's also what Dragonrealms has been doing, for a little longer.
I no longer play DragonRealms for the same reasons why I have no urge to play UO, Full Loot Open World PvP with vast power imbalances just flat out sucks IMHO.
If you enjoy that, then enjoy. But much like people who like Pineapple on their Pizza and offer it to me.. I may like Pizza, but I am going to hard pass on that kind of Pizza. But the good side is, there is more for you.
you can play UO and stay in Trammel and not have to worry about anyone harming your pixels
That's like saying "You can eat the crust".. Thank you for the offer, but, Still hard pass, you enjoy tho.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Honestly.. if I was going to make some new wave MMO.
I would removed all numbers from the UI, and you would just be given Schematics of Damage, and Icons to reparent health, heart beat, hunger, fatigue, body temp, etc, and the like, much like how would know about your own body functions.
Everything else, would be hidden, and you would get descriptive words, like: an Butchers Cleaver has Sharp Slice, Decent Impact, Poor Pricing, weighs 1.2 Lbs, if present you would be able to know the Crafters Brand/mark, and depending on how well your character knows a Butcher Cleaver, You would be able to guess the quality from "Pathetic" to "Masterful".
You ability to improve your knowledge on the quality of a Butchers Cleaver would come by, by using it, either as a weapon, or as a butcher cutting meat, taking a class on it (Study), knowing something similar, ergo, doing metal smiting or knife making, these would be things that would improve your characters knowledge.
Equally so, if you wanted to use it as a tool/weapon, using it as such, be it as a tool, to butcher meat, or a weapon, would both improve your overall skill, which you would not get a number for, you would get a Word, like "Pathetic" to "Masterful" but.. no numbers.
This way, as you play the game, you would improve, but you would do so in a means that made sense in a RP like environment.
After all, levels, skill ranks and the like, are just numbers for us players to use, to grasp in a way we can understand our own progress.
You just described UO .. they have been doing that for near 24 years now
and it's also what Dragonrealms has been doing, for a little longer.
I no longer play DragonRealms for the same reasons why I have no urge to play UO, Full Loot Open World PvP with vast power imbalances just flat out sucks IMHO.
If you enjoy that, then enjoy. But much like people who like Pineapple on their Pizza and offer it to me.. I may like Pizza, but I am going to hard pass on that kind of Pizza. But the good side is, there is more for you.
you can play UO and stay in Trammel and not have to worry about anyone harming your pixels
Well yeah, just like if you play smart you can almost totally avoid being someone else's content in EVE, people do it regularly, but there's always more "reasons" why people won't play it, even I do the same.
You can talk yourself out of playing any game if you try hard enough.
Actually every game goes in reverse of this, where every game you opt to play, you have to talk yourself into playing it.
I mean even if we remove things like Cost, ergo, buying the game, paying a sub and all this, even if we didn't discuss the fiscal walls to getting into a new game, and lets just go with the fact that you have the hardware and software already set up to accommodate the additional games as well, so these are no longer walls, which ordinally are things every gamer has to weigh into when they opt to play a new game, even more so, if the game has a high wall to entry, like a box fee, or a needed sub. So, lets say, as a gamer, you have already talked yourself INTO these investments.
Because that is what you need to do with every new game.. Talk yourself into playing them, giving them a try.
Even after all the above, You still have to justify taking time away from some other part of your life to play this game. Be that family time, sleep, other games you might be playing, this new game will take up a chunk of time that will need to be taken from some other events you have going on in your life currently.
And you will need to talk yourself into making those changes to play that game. And the more things about said game that might not appeal to you, the harder it is to talk yourself into playing it, especially if you have some other games you are already enjoying, or maybe taken up a whole different hobby and opted to lay off gaming as a whole.
As far as leaving a game goes, I was reading a article that most MMO players admit to playing a game long after they have ceased to enjoy playing it. Which means, they are not talking themselves out of a game, they already want to leave it, they have already passed the point of not-having fun. So it's really a matter of finally getting fed up enough to the point that whatever was driving you away, exceeded what was holding you to the game.
So you're not really talking yourself out of anything, when you need to sit down and talk yourself out of something, that means you are enjoying it or want it, and are trying to justify not doing it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Skill training is basically leveling by a different mechanism. I would call it player customized leveling.
Can be just as grindy.
But quite often much easier to macro.
Seems to quite common in skill based games which increase while doing, get out there and punch some bushes.
Exactly how players trained weapons in WoW at launch, an likely again with "Classic."
I certainly did! In both cases. I enjoyed it. It gave me the choice of which weapons to specialize in or which to concentrate in. When WoW did away with this practice, I was disappointed
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I'm one who likes the journey more than the destination. In many games, once I hit max level, I'll start an alt...
I do the same. I even go so far as to level in the same zones, even though I have other choices, just to get a good feel for how capable my alt build is compared to my memory of the previous one I took through the same content.
Repetitious I know, but satisfying my curiosity about relative build strengths and weaknesses trumps the repetitive game play for me.
I don't see the point. You can't even pvp unless you reach max level. And most group content is off limit unless you hit max level. To me max level is when the journey started.
Journey is definitely my pick over the end. I am doing Heritage quests now in Everquest 2 and man those are some long ass quests but I simply love the whole trip and the reward isn't even the reason to do them for me at least.
Comments
players will usually choose the fantasy theme over the science fiction, over and over again. Unfortunately almost all the offerings are "standard" level grinders but the success of games like Valheim shows that players want more than levels. They want to build bases, extensive crafting, worlds that can change or be modified.
EQnext was on the right track before it got scuttled but that technology will be viable soon.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I'm not "well-versed" in all MMOs, but in EQ1 there was a chance with each crafting attempt your skill could improve. It was an RNG roll. I'd like to see factors like bonuses/minuses adjust that roll so that it's not a matter of craft "X" a specified number and gain an improvement.
It's not a perfect system. Nothing is. My "perfect" is probably not your "perfect" or anyone eles's "perfect." But game making is a marriage of reality and fun
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
to me, as long as its situational rather than incremental, they are already on the right road for a persistent world.
until some nobody turns over the table, of course.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Oh... and Valheim rules.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Yes skill based levelling sucks if it causes you to pound a tree for 3 days. We all pretty much agree to that. Why even have it?
I dont know about the subs. They were always pretty fair all things considered.
Valheim is an unfinished early access game but even with 5 fucking developers... you can see that good ideas and attention to detail trumps millions of dollars and shareholder's sons designers.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I can't do activities just for the "fun" of it, or at least not for very long, the lure of the hamster wheel is just too strong.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Last I heard it's not a dying genre, quite the opposite. Guess what those are all about... you, grinding progression with levels, with skill unlocks and with gear.
Hamsters rejoice!
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
But like you say, it's all about what you find "fun" and that is extremely subjective. Personally I find end game PvE a not so fun grind as well as some types of PvP - the 15 minute match variety.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
you can play UO and stay in Trammel and not have to worry about anyone harming your pixels
You can talk yourself out of playing any game if you try hard enough.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
Repetitious I know, but satisfying my curiosity about relative build strengths and weaknesses trumps the repetitive game play for me.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
I mean even if we remove things like Cost, ergo, buying the game, paying a sub and all this, even if we didn't discuss the fiscal walls to getting into a new game, and lets just go with the fact that you have the hardware and software already set up to accommodate the additional games as well, so these are no longer walls, which ordinally are things every gamer has to weigh into when they opt to play a new game, even more so, if the game has a high wall to entry, like a box fee, or a needed sub. So, lets say, as a gamer, you have already talked yourself INTO these investments.
Because that is what you need to do with every new game.. Talk yourself into playing them, giving them a try.
Even after all the above, You still have to justify taking time away from some other part of your life to play this game. Be that family time, sleep, other games you might be playing, this new game will take up a chunk of time that will need to be taken from some other events you have going on in your life currently.
And you will need to talk yourself into making those changes to play that game. And the more things about said game that might not appeal to you, the harder it is to talk yourself into playing it, especially if you have some other games you are already enjoying, or maybe taken up a whole different hobby and opted to lay off gaming as a whole.
As far as leaving a game goes, I was reading a article that most MMO players admit to playing a game long after they have ceased to enjoy playing it. Which means, they are not talking themselves out of a game, they already want to leave it, they have already passed the point of not-having fun. So it's really a matter of finally getting fed up enough to the point that whatever was driving you away, exceeded what was holding you to the game.
So you're not really talking yourself out of anything, when you need to sit down and talk yourself out of something, that means you are enjoying it or want it, and are trying to justify not doing it.
I certainly did! In both cases. I enjoyed it. It gave me the choice of which weapons to specialize in or which to concentrate in. When WoW did away with this practice, I was disappointed
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR