I would say they leveling method is tried and true formula for developers to use. However I do feel like it is a missed opportunity for creative development. For example if I were developing a game I would do away with the 1-50 level method and instead introduce Grand Quests. You can have multiple per zone and upon completion you are presented with a choice. For example you would recieve a unique weapon or armor that have rulesets or set bonuses, a skill, or a skill augment, or a skill level etc. So the choices you make throughout the gameworld would shape the class you play. Dont kill me its just a brainstorm.
Honestly.. if I was going to make some new wave MMO.
I would removed all numbers from the UI, and you would just be given Schematics of Damage, and Icons to reparent health, heart beat, hunger, fatigue, body temp, etc, and the like, much like how would know about your own body functions.
Everything else, would be hidden, and you would get descriptive words, like: an Butchers Cleaver has Sharp Slice, Decent Impact, Poor Pricing, weighs 1.2 Lbs, if present you would be able to know the Crafters Brand/mark, and depending on how well your character knows a Butcher Cleaver, You would be able to guess the quality from "Pathetic" to "Masterful".
You ability to improve your knowledge on the quality of a Butchers Cleaver would come by, by using it, either as a weapon, or as a butcher cutting meat, taking a class on it (Study), knowing something similar, ergo, doing metal smiting or knife making, these would be things that would improve your characters knowledge.
Equally so, if you wanted to use it as a tool/weapon, using it as such, be it as a tool, to butcher meat, or a weapon, would both improve your overall skill, which you would not get a number for, you would get a Word, like "Pathetic" to "Masterful" but.. no numbers.
This way, as you play the game, you would improve, but you would do so in a means that made sense in a RP like environment.
After all, levels, skill ranks and the like, are just numbers for us players to use, to grasp in a way we can understand our own progress.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
i kinda like the idea that your "base" is your level or a large chunk of it.
-the food you can make -buffs you get from being secure/relaxed and comfortable -equipment/effects/enchantments you can produce and maintain with various stations both magical and non magical.
im pretty sure many if not nearly all mmo fans love to build and decorate houses and such. Its a huge timesink. It only makes sense to extrapolate some of that to your character and get rid of the dreaded level.
I think valheim would make a perfect mmo if you think about how your character works, though I would expand upon it greatly.
this moves people from "grinding exp" and shifts them to base building and resource collecting/trading/ maintenance..which is literally gameplay onto itself.
so the exp isnt that important, maybe useful for a minimalist skill use base system ( i.e accounts for less than 10-20% of your characters overall power and instead we rely on all kinds of interesting housing gizmos and effects which in turn effects your character in permanent/temporary and equipable ways.
Levels are just a theoretical representation of your progress through the game. Just a number attached to your character. Nothing wrong with that, everybody likes to progress in life so having a really obvious number on the screen that says "yup, you've progressed" is nice.
The problems, with MMORPGs specifically, is the method of progressing and the rewards you gain for progressing.
The typical method of progressing is to gather XP via completing quests. This is a method of progression taken from board games and single player RPGs.....where it works.....but hasn't been updated to make it suitable for a massively multiplayer game. The main issue is that quests, especially the typical story / chain quests, segregate the players. After all, whats the point of grouping up with someone if you don't share the same quest?
Likewise, on the rewards for progression. We've now been trained to expect rewards from playing the game. We crave them. This has resulted in a situation where the slightest bit of playing the game is rewarded with moar power! This makes us feel good, for about 10 seconds, then we go back to feeling as we normally do. This is why devs keep on giving us more and more and more power.....they are feeding a beast that can never be satisfied.
But, just like linear questing, power also segregates the playerbase. Very stupid idea for the massively multiplayer genre! Why the hell would you design mechanics for a multiplayer game that makes it harder to play with other people?!?! Understable, given the single-player and co-op history of RPGs, but still unsuitable for massively multiplayer games.
The answer, is to rethink how we progress and the rewards we get. In terms of how we progress, this is all about options and not forcing players down a single route of progression. You see the benefits of decoupling XP from quests in games like FFXIV. Yes, there are quests with XP and story, but there are also the random quests (leves?) that you can easily drop in or out of, as well as plenty of XP and rewards from just grinding dungeons. This has resulted in a much more vibrant community and much more grouping (i.e. multiplayer) than most MMOs.
On the rewards, one solution is to switch to horizontal character progression, leaving the verticality outside of the character. Instead of getting more power, you instead get different power. More options, more choices. For example, if you start the game and can only do single target DPS, but through playing you unlock AoE DPS, have you not progressed? As long as the player has to choose between single and AoE (and not just have both), then you can maintain power equality whilst still giving meaningful progression. The verticality, you move outside of the character, so instead of the character themselves having more power, they instead gain more wealth, more land, better businesses etc. For those seeking power, they can still get it, its just by moving the power outside of the character, you do not prevent players from enjoying the game together.
I would say they leveling method is tried and true formula for developers to use. However I do feel like it is a missed opportunity for creative development. For example if I were developing a game I would do away with the 1-50 level method and instead introduce Grand Quests. You can have multiple per zone and upon completion you are presented with a choice. For example you would recieve a unique weapon or armor that have rulesets or set bonuses, a skill, or a skill augment, or a skill level etc. So the choices you make throughout the gameworld would shape the class you play. Dont kill me its just a brainstorm.
Honestly.. if I was going to make some new wave MMO.
I would removed all numbers from the UI, and you would just be given Schematics of Damage, and Icons to reparent health, heart beat, hunger, fatigue, body temp, etc, and the like, much like how would know about your own body functions.
Everything else, would be hidden, and you would get descriptive words, like: an Butchers Cleaver has Sharp Slice, Decent Impact, Poor Pricing, weighs 1.2 Lbs, if present you would be able to know the Crafters Brand/mark, and depending on how well your character knows a Butcher Cleaver, You would be able to guess the quality from "Pathetic" to "Masterful".
You ability to improve your knowledge on the quality of a Butchers Cleaver would come by, by using it, either as a weapon, or as a butcher cutting meat, taking a class on it (Study), knowing something similar, ergo, doing metal smiting or knife making, these would be things that would improve your characters knowledge.
Equally so, if you wanted to use it as a tool/weapon, using it as such, be it as a tool, to butcher meat, or a weapon, would both improve your overall skill, which you would not get a number for, you would get a Word, like "Pathetic" to "Masterful" but.. no numbers.
This way, as you play the game, you would improve, but you would do so in a means that made sense in a RP like environment.
After all, levels, skill ranks and the like, are just numbers for us players to use, to grasp in a way we can understand our own progress.
You just described UO .. they have been doing that for near 24 years now
Never played TSW, but did you like the old version or new version?
Sorry, malice didn't pass over the text... obviously the original
While I said earlier I'm fine with any kinda system, they all have some faults.
The regular levels could get tedious, and even annoying when gating too many things ("no, you can't set foot in this forest, your level is not high enough").
Real time like EVE, as Twisted said, can be annoying too. I wouldn't say ridiculous, since it has some benefits too ("even out" the rushers and no-lifers of other MMORPGs, gives you progression when offline, etc.), but it's really a long-term system, and I'm a game hopper so...
Horizontal skill progression, the straight road to burnout and botting. Or just weight down the keyboard and go to sleep, like in the old days. Nothing is blander than "Swing your sword a thousand times, and yay, now you do 0.5% more damage with it, congrats"
TSW was a nice middle ground, with bypassing all those. Horizontal skill progression, but not by mindless grinding selected activities like jumping, but simple picking from the Wheel.
No relative advantages in them either, just variety and different synergies, a.k.a. build your own "class" - and switch onto a new one any time you want.
(Man, those simpleton complaints about "Hey, I just picked an expensive skill and it does the same damage as the other newbie skill, WTF, stupid game" )
Progression was about exteding the array of possibilites for theory crafting new and interesting skill combinations.
Power creep was minimal (compared to other games), in form of gear updates, but gearing wasn't a chore or through RNG either, but completely in your hand to edit. (swapping stats in them at will)
They've made it grindy though, when AEGIS arrived.
It was hands down my favourite "leveling" system... (and it had no levels even)
Instead of getting more power, you instead get different power. More options, more choices. For example, if you start the game and can only do single target DPS, but through playing you unlock AoE DPS, have you not progressed?
Skill training is basically leveling by a different mechanism. I would call it player customized leveling.
Can be just as grindy.
Yes but it is more fine-grained. Instead of a single definitive number you have more flexibility in what to progress and what role/career to follow in the game world.
But now we start talking about classes. Because as you level, a lot of games have multiple skills to choose and skill trees to specialize in.
I do agree, much more granular... but with pure skill system... you get meta morph few classes/builds IMO (vs classical MMORPGs like WoW). I'm open to being corrected.
Mortal Online and Mortal Online 2 sees this (pure skill based). Trying to think of other skilled based MMORPGs.
Definitely these types of systems are probe to limited builds. DAoC had classes *and* builds. The build could absolutely ruin a character if it wasn't one of the 'approved' methods.
Also, the classless pure skill system tends to suffer from the tank-mage syndrome. Everyone does everything and there is nothing like a specialized 'role'.
Both systems *can* work, but generally requires much more dedication and effort from the developers to balance things properly. Today's developers would rather focus on clever schemes to get into your wallet rather than building a clever system.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Real time like EVE, as Twisted said, can be annoying too. I wouldn't say ridiculous, since it has some benefits too ("even out" the rushers and no-lifers of other MMORPGs, gives you progression when offline, etc.), but it's really a long-term system, and I'm a game hopper so...
<snip>
One other factor with EVE's skill system, there is absolutely no way to catch up to anyone who's been playing longer -- they will always have more skill than you. Good in theory, not-so-good in practice. It can be very frustrating.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
One other factor with EVE's skill system, there is absolutely no way to catch up to anyone who's been playing longer -- they will always have more skill than you. Good in theory, not-so-good in practice. It can be very frustrating.
Actually that was "fixed" a few years ago - unfortunately...
Skill injectors, you can now buy your way/time ahead, with real money (or ISK).
Leveling is the syndrome of starting as a boy and becoming a hero, which is good in the teenager's psyche but sad for grown ups.
No, leveling is NOT the backbone of RPG. It is just an addictive-immersion-breaking mechanic that was popularized by D&D, and lazily ported to digital games.
The backbone of RPG is not "level" but "Role" (the "R" in R.P.G), which means playing a role in character and not being the group "healer", DPS, or "Tank".
Progression can anyway be achieved by thousands of other means...
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
One other factor with EVE's skill system, there is absolutely no way to catch up to anyone who's been playing longer -- they will always have more skill than you. Good in theory, not-so-good in practice. It can be very frustrating.
Actually that was "fixed" a few years ago - unfortunately...
Skill injectors, you can now buy your way/time ahead, with real money (or ISK).
The cap on skills means it doesn't matter if others have been playing longer, take mining for instance, my characters are all at level cap so no one in the game can out perform me on basis of skill training.
Same holds for PVP, the big limiter in any fight is my lack of skill, but definitely not on the part of my characters.
One caveat, it takes years of skill training to reach this point, unless of course one buys skill injectors to speed up the process.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I would say they leveling method is tried and true formula for developers to use. However I do feel like it is a missed opportunity for creative development. For example if I were developing a game I would do away with the 1-50 level method and instead introduce Grand Quests. You can have multiple per zone and upon completion you are presented with a choice. For example you would recieve a unique weapon or armor that have rulesets or set bonuses, a skill, or a skill augment, or a skill level etc. So the choices you make throughout the gameworld would shape the class you play. Dont kill me its just a brainstorm.
Honestly.. if I was going to make some new wave MMO.
I would removed all numbers from the UI, and you would just be given Schematics of Damage, and Icons to reparent health, heart beat, hunger, fatigue, body temp, etc, and the like, much like how would know about your own body functions.
Everything else, would be hidden, and you would get descriptive words, like: an Butchers Cleaver has Sharp Slice, Decent Impact, Poor Pricing, weighs 1.2 Lbs, if present you would be able to know the Crafters Brand/mark, and depending on how well your character knows a Butcher Cleaver, You would be able to guess the quality from "Pathetic" to "Masterful".
You ability to improve your knowledge on the quality of a Butchers Cleaver would come by, by using it, either as a weapon, or as a butcher cutting meat, taking a class on it (Study), knowing something similar, ergo, doing metal smiting or knife making, these would be things that would improve your characters knowledge.
Equally so, if you wanted to use it as a tool/weapon, using it as such, be it as a tool, to butcher meat, or a weapon, would both improve your overall skill, which you would not get a number for, you would get a Word, like "Pathetic" to "Masterful" but.. no numbers.
This way, as you play the game, you would improve, but you would do so in a means that made sense in a RP like environment.
After all, levels, skill ranks and the like, are just numbers for us players to use, to grasp in a way we can understand our own progress.
You just described UO .. they have been doing that for near 24 years now
and it's also what Dragonrealms has been doing, for a little longer.
I no longer play DragonRealms for the same reasons why I have no urge to play UO, Full Loot Open World PvP with vast power imbalances just flat out sucks IMHO.
If you enjoy that, then enjoy. But much like people who like Pineapple on their Pizza and offer it to me.. I may like Pizza, but I am going to hard pass on that kind of Pizza. But the good side is, there is more for you.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If you spend a week trying to level and you get a drop that is a noticable upgrade you're going to like leveling as opposed to getting fast levels and spewed constant mediocre gear then you won't like leveling because it feels pointless. It's the way modern games leveling design that makes people not want to level.
Yes questing for levels is dead and damn near killed the genre
Kinda like subs!
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
No, leveling is NOT the backbone of RPG. It is just an addictive-immersion-breaking mechanic that was popularized by D&D, and lazily ported to digital games.
"Popularized by D&D", that's kinda backwards and makes no sense (since D&D has started all)
Agree on the other two, the cheap and combat-focused digital porting I'm bashing too since the '90s, and yep, leveling is not the backbone, progression is.
Besides roleplay, ofc, but that should be obvious.
Progression can anyway be achieved by thousands of other means...
Yep, and that's how it was in D&D as well... levels weren't the goal, more of a difficulty setting. A level 9 party could face more challenging adventures than a level 3 party.
And it wasn't a fast track (at least not with good GMs around), you could have month-long sessions whilst on the same level.
Nope, level system of D&D wasn't immersion-breaking, it was actually pretty good for its time.
Probably that's why I'm a story-focused player till this day, and love to explore/get lost in the worlds, I've had really good GMs back in the day and got into RPGs with the mindset of "chasing character power increases is NOT the goal".
Progress the world itself through adventures and stories, progress the character itself through experiences (in the sense of what movie critics used to call "character development"), progress the party (making bonds and friendships), etc., THAT's how we've played RPG at the tables.
When Amber came to the scene, we even got rid of the dice
Yes questing for levels is dead and damn near killed the genre
Kinda like subs!
Yet again those same 4 or 5 games I mentioned employ a subscription in some manner, weird.
How many MMORPGs released since 2005 without levels or subs have been even mildly successful? A handful at best, sort of like games with levels / subs actually.
I think there might be a few (sic) more factors which lead the market to where it is today and eliminating either or both won't breath new life into it.
Here's a test, EVE is a well made MMORPG which is actively being developed which has no questing to level or mandatory subs, so why aren't you both playing it? (Come to think of it, why am I no longer playing?)
Oh yeah, other "reasons" come to mind, but certainly nothing to do with the two mentioned here.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
I would removed all numbers from the UI, and you would just be given Schematics of Damage, and Icons to reparent health, heart beat, hunger, fatigue, body temp, etc, and the like, much like how would know about your own body functions.
Everything else, would be hidden, and you would get descriptive words, like: an Butchers Cleaver has Sharp Slice, Decent Impact, Poor Pricing, weighs 1.2 Lbs, if present you would be able to know the Crafters Brand/mark, and depending on how well your character knows a Butcher Cleaver, You would be able to guess the quality from "Pathetic" to "Masterful".
You ability to improve your knowledge on the quality of a Butchers Cleaver would come by, by using it, either as a weapon, or as a butcher cutting meat, taking a class on it (Study), knowing something similar, ergo, doing metal smiting or knife making, these would be things that would improve your characters knowledge.
Equally so, if you wanted to use it as a tool/weapon, using it as such, be it as a tool, to butcher meat, or a weapon, would both improve your overall skill, which you would not get a number for, you would get a Word, like "Pathetic" to "Masterful" but.. no numbers.
This way, as you play the game, you would improve, but you would do so in a means that made sense in a RP like environment.
After all, levels, skill ranks and the like, are just numbers for us players to use, to grasp in a way we can understand our own progress.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
-the food you can make
-buffs you get from being secure/relaxed and comfortable
-equipment/effects/enchantments you can produce and maintain with various stations both magical and non magical.
im pretty sure many if not nearly all mmo fans love to build and decorate houses and such. Its a huge timesink. It only makes sense to extrapolate some of that to your character and get rid of the dreaded level.
I think valheim would make a perfect mmo if you think about how your character works, though I would expand upon it greatly.
this moves people from "grinding exp" and shifts them to base building and resource collecting/trading/ maintenance..which is literally gameplay onto itself.
so the exp isnt that important, maybe useful for a minimalist skill use base system ( i.e accounts for less than 10-20% of your characters overall power and instead we rely on all kinds of interesting housing gizmos and effects which in turn effects your character in permanent/temporary and equipable ways.
It's power creep what drives me off.
Leveling should be mostly horizontal and a little bit vertical. Like 1% Power raise per level that's enough
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon
You just described UO .. they have been doing that for near 24 years now
Then Project Gorgon is the game for you.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Seems to quite common in skill based games which increase while doing, get out there and punch some bushes.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Same holds for PVP, the big limiter in any fight is my lack of skill, but definitely not on the part of my characters.
One caveat, it takes years of skill training to reach this point, unless of course one buys skill injectors to speed up the process.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I no longer play DragonRealms for the same reasons why I have no urge to play UO, Full Loot Open World PvP with vast power imbalances just flat out sucks IMHO.
If you enjoy that, then enjoy. But much like people who like Pineapple on their Pizza and offer it to me.. I may like Pizza, but I am going to hard pass on that kind of Pizza. But the good side is, there is more for you.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Yet again those same 4 or 5 games I mentioned employ a subscription in some manner, weird.
How many MMORPGs released since 2005 without levels or subs have been even mildly successful? A handful at best, sort of like games with levels / subs actually.
I think there might be a few (sic) more factors which lead the market to where it is today and eliminating either or both won't breath new life into it.
Here's a test, EVE is a well made MMORPG which is actively being developed which has no questing to level or mandatory subs, so why aren't you both playing it? (Come to think of it, why am I no longer playing?)
Oh yeah, other "reasons" come to mind, but certainly nothing to do with the two mentioned here.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon