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Is Linear Leveling Progression dead?

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,824
    edited April 2021
    I don't think it is levelling that has made devs take their eyes of (as you aptly put it) "making the worlds more worldly".

    It is the casino gameplay, the live elements, the streamlining, the attempt to make MMOs appeal to every player. Part of the original concept of a MMORPG was to make a world players wanted to live in, where you paid for the game and a monthly subscription. Today the defining concept of a MMO is making a game players can sight see but want to spend money in. That huge shift is at the root of nearly every change we see.
    GdemamiKyleranAlBQuirkyxpsync
  • AugustusGAugustusG Member UncommonPosts: 73
    I tryed my hand at Astelia Royal recently and the asian mmo still have the lvling killing creeps as a classical mmo it was pretty fun until a bug blocked me. Aparently classic lvl your character mmo are still made these days in asia.
    AlBQuirky
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,749
    Rungar said:
    are you sick of "levelling" yet? I am.  
    Nope, progression is pretty much the core of RPG.

    If you mean the actual leveling mechanics (without the quote-unquote), still a nope for me. I've played pretty much every kind of level-based, skill-based, entirely levelless, etc. games out there (both tabletop and cRPG), and I'm fine with all of them until there's a good story, a world to explore, and a sort of progression.
    cheyaneKyleranSovrathAlBQuirkyUngooddragonlee66[Deleted User]
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    edited April 2021
    Maurgrim said:
    Levels 1-50 type of MMO were you have to progress thrue a set of zones in your level range are noboring as fuck.
    Thats one of many reasons I play ESO, ESO don't have that shit.
    Funny story, while I've recently been enjoying the flexibility in ESO to team up with friends regardless of their levels I still completely clear zones one at a time before moving to the next.

    It's also great I can clear content anywhere within a zone without worrying about over leveling content.

    The game often gives me quests that send me to another land but as soon as I finish them I return to the zone I'm in the middle of completing.

    This however is partly due to the still extremely limited quest log, after 7 years it still can only hold 25 quests, what's up with that?

    Probably some stupid limitation caused by being available on toasters...err I mean consoles.

    ;)


    ScotAlBQuirkyUngood[Deleted User]

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

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  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 1,132
    While eso was a step in the right direction it just shows me that the levels were never really needed. Im a big proponent of integrated gameplay as opposed to tacked on gameplay. The "levels" are an unnecessary and obsolete gating mechinism. 

    im ok with skills getting better as you use them but i really dont like the your lv x so you have x stats. That should all come from the gameplay itself not some stat you got from killing x monsters.  
    AlBQuirky
    .05 of a second to midnight
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,600
    I think leveling is just sort of there so people keep chasing new carrot like new gear etc...

    So everyone start out with nothing and progress through the way.  They can't deck out a new character from just getting new gear from friends etc. 

    I never really see games with no level, so curious how that work. 
    AlBQuirky
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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Scot said:
    I don't think it is levelling that has made devs take their eyes of (as you aptly put it) "making the worlds more worldly".

    It is the casino gameplay, the live elements, the streamlining, the attempt to make MMOs appeal to every player. Part of the original concept of a MMORPG was to make a world players wanted to live in, where you paid for the game and a monthly subscription. Today the defining concept of a MMO is making a game players can sight see but want to spend money in. That huge shift is at the root of nearly every change we see.
    They make MMOs of today "easily beatable." The old ones weren't as easily finished.

    Look at WoW. Many players "beat the latest expansion/update" and leave. Sure, some players stay logged in between times, but too many players no longer do.

    It used to be said, "You don't beat Bethesda games."
    Ungoodxpsync

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
     I am not sure what game everyone is really thinking of when they talk about leveling.

    But, GW2, really had one of the best systems for leveling. You started in the newbie zones, you had simple stuff there to fight, that had limited mechanics, some things that were geared just for starting players, but overall, it felt like a starting region, with your characters home city right there.

    And even then, as you moved about the starting area, which the starting area had a 15 level split, so, the stuff at the city was level 1 - 3 kind of mobs, as you moved around the zone, you could explore, and face harder mobs, the closer you got to other higher level zones, the harder the mobs were. 

    Pretty simple. And those zones were then set up the same way, they were 10 level splits, and the mobs near the lower level zone junction, were lower level, the mobs near their higher level zone junction were higher level.

    Case in point:

    Queensdale: Human Starting City. The mobs nearby the city itself were around level 1 - 5. The mobs in the middle of the zone were around 5 - 10, and the mobs that were near the zone point to Kessex Hills (15 - 25)  & Gendarren Fields (25-35) were around 10 - 15. 

    So you could feel various challenge levels shift as you moved through the zone, and you could also go back to regions near the starting city and feel more powerful, giving you that sense of progress in the zone itself.

    Kessex Hills was 15 - 25, level range. With mobs near Queensdale (Starting Zone) and Caladon Forest (Starting Zone) were in the 15 - 20 range, and the mobs near Gendarren Fields (25 - 35) were in the 20 - 25 range, making them.. just a little harder.

    This way, as you moved through the zones, they would set up for what the next zones would provide, and as you leveled, you could go to harder and harder zones, like a bunch of hobbits leaving home for the first time, you don't step out your front door into the heart of Mount Doom, you make your way there, facing trials, building skills, courage, and developing what you need to overcome what you will face. Unless you are Frodo Baggens, then you just just get carried by your Gardner as everyone heaps all kinds of rare and amazing loot upon you.

    GW2, however, was really cool, in the fact that you could never outlevel a zone. You were always scaled DOWN to the zone you were in. This means, if you started in say Queensdale, level to 15, and then head off to Kessex Hills, you hunt there, make 25th, you can still stop in Caladon Forest (1 - 15) and complete that map, getting exp and rewards, because you will be down scaled to 15, to make the zone your level range. This way, as you move about, as you level, the world opens up for you, you gain MORE zones you can explore, unlike other games where you would only go UP. GW2 set it up so that you could always go back home again.

    Then lets say, you make it to level 40 now, and finally make it to Holbrak, city of the Norns. Well, time to check out Wayfairer Foothills (The Starting Zone for the Norns) most games would have you be this epic TOO HIGH to play here, but not GW2, they down level you and, you can once again, enjoy moving through the zone, doing events with others there, killing mobs, getting rewards, and exploring the world, without being a disruption to the others there, you are not trivializing the events, you are not stealing EXP, you are playing the game WITH the starting Norns, and everyone that came back here to get map completion, and all on mostly even footing.

    And in this vein, starting zones had World Bosses, case in point, Queensdale has Shadow Beast, and Caladon Forest has Jungle Wurm, Warfarer Foothills had Frozen Maw, and when these events start, you will have level like 10's first day player, standing shoulder to shoulder with a level 80 that's been playing since day one, and they are ALL Viably contributing to the event, they are ALL getting a reward, and they are ALL having fun together.

    This was about the closest thing I have ever seen to the perfect system, which is why it galls me so much they just twisted into a shit pile with HoT and went full retard WoW clone.
    xpsyncHiromant
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Wargfoot said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    I think leveling is just sort of there so people keep chasing new carrot like new gear etc...

    So everyone start out with nothing and progress through the way.  They can't deck out a new character from just getting new gear from friends etc. 

    I never really see games with no level, so curious how that work. 


    In a skill based game you raise your skills by using them.

    In UO, for example, you could have a skill range of 0.0 to 100.00 in 55 different skills.  If you wanted to be better with sword you'd pick up a sword and fight with it.  Every once an awhile you'd gain 0.01 skill points until you'd reached grand master at 100.00.

    The same was true with crafting.  You'd gain skill in mining by actually mining ore.

    I prefer this type of game because it is more immersive and people actually ended up participating in the activities they were trying to improve.  That is, I couldn't go out and earn 3 skill points fighting monsters and put those skill points into crafting - you only gained in those areas you practiced.

    Also, because it isn't level based nearly everyone had the same hit points - PvP was much easier to balance and nobody was running around in untouchable godmode.    


    So you're more against "character levels" than "just levels?"

    Level is an all encompassing term that equates to progress. If you're progressing your skills, gear, and abilities, you're still leveling or progressing.

    I agree and prefer skill/ability/gear leveling over actual character levels. But those are "levels", still. Groups will seek out "qualified candidates" by whatever metric they are seeking to fulfill. "We seek a sword wielder at X skill." "We are looking for a caster with Fireball."

    Sorry, that should read "LFSW X Skill." or LFC w FB." LOL

    Something that always bugged me about character levels was the hit point/health meter. In tabletop D&D, is was a simplified way to show the overall ability of a player to "withstand damage", or damage mitigation. This was a simplified way to incorporate life and skill knowledge. This is a great example of where tabletop systems failed to translate well into video games. Even more so as combat became more and more twitch mode instead of more RNG based.

    I hope that made sense :)
    Ungood[Deleted User]

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    AlBQuirky said:
    Wargfoot said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    I think leveling is just sort of there so people keep chasing new carrot like new gear etc...

    So everyone start out with nothing and progress through the way.  They can't deck out a new character from just getting new gear from friends etc. 

    I never really see games with no level, so curious how that work. 


    In a skill based game you raise your skills by using them.

    In UO, for example, you could have a skill range of 0.0 to 100.00 in 55 different skills.  If you wanted to be better with sword you'd pick up a sword and fight with it.  Every once an awhile you'd gain 0.01 skill points until you'd reached grand master at 100.00.

    The same was true with crafting.  You'd gain skill in mining by actually mining ore.

    I prefer this type of game because it is more immersive and people actually ended up participating in the activities they were trying to improve.  That is, I couldn't go out and earn 3 skill points fighting monsters and put those skill points into crafting - you only gained in those areas you practiced.

    Also, because it isn't level based nearly everyone had the same hit points - PvP was much easier to balance and nobody was running around in untouchable godmode.    


    So you're more against "character levels" than "just levels?"

    Level is an all encompassing term that equates to progress. If you're progressing your skills, gear, and abilities, you're still leveling or progressing.

    I agree and prefer skill/ability/gear leveling over actual character levels. But those are "levels", still. Groups will seek out "qualified candidates" by whatever metric they are seeking to fulfill. "We seek a sword wielder at X skill." "We are looking for a caster with Fireball."

    Sorry, that should read "LFSW X Skill." or LFC w FB." LOL

    Something that always bugged me about character levels was the hit point/health meter. In tabletop D&D, is was a simplified way to show the overall ability of a player to "withstand damage", or damage mitigation. This was a simplified way to incorporate life and skill knowledge. This is a great example of where tabletop systems failed to translate well into video games. Even more so as combat became more and more twitch mode instead of more RNG based.

    I hope that made sense :)
    Dragonrealms, had it set up, that you could only level once you met the skill criteria to level. As such leveling was not so much a "Power Up" but a mark of how much skill you have gained in your chosen profession. 

    Levels did unlock some abilities, like additional spells, maybe a new skill, a title, things like that, to there was a slight advantage to leveling or taking that level (Which was totally optional, you never had to level if you didn't want to), but everything was based on your skill, so, your real advantage was in the skills your character had.

    To grasp this.

    Lets say you play a Ranger.
    You would need something like say:
    4 Primary Weapon Ranks.
    3 Secondary Weapon Ranks
    4 Armor Rank.
    20 Overall Survival Skill
    4 Skinning Ranks
    4 Overall Mechanical Lore

    What this means is that, a level 10 ranger has at LEAST.
    40 Ranks in their main Weapon.
    30 Ranks in their Secondary Weapon.
    40 Ranks in their Main Armor
    200 Overall Ranks in Survival Skills.
    40 Ranks in Skinning (Which counts towards that 200 total above)
    40 Ranks in Overall Mechanical Lore Skills.

    So this is a base Minimum that Ranger has.

    The reality is, this does not tell you that much, nor that if you were say a level 10 paladin, that you would be a close fight to them, as they could have something like 500 ranks in their Primary Weapon, and they just don't level up because they want to give the illusion they are weak, and you have no way to know this, so they might cut you in half on the first hit if you start a fight with them.

    It was a real crazy game.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • xpsyncxpsync Member EpicPosts: 1,854
    The problem with leveling is the player.

    I played first 4 months of SL solo and mostly took my time, took a couple weeks to hit 60, then on some alts took a couple months to get to 60.

    But f me if i still didn't feel some kind of weird ass pressure to just level asap.

    I mean if you truly solo wow with a life it'll take you months upon months to get through the content, read the quests, smell the roses...

    but the mentality of late is to just BLAST THE FUCK TROUGH CONTENT!!! lmao Hurry the F up and wait, and then complain there is nothing to do, overall it's a crock of BS.

    There is nothing to do now cause you didn't control yourself and take your time, and hell yeah i suffer from that as well, i've no deadline, yet, it's just weird. I wasn't aiming for end game so, whats the rush, just enjoy.

    Now later on where i changed servers to get into end game yeah i blasted through leveling with a end reason, a purpose to do that.

    If you want to enjoy leveling there is nothing stopping you from doing that other than yourself and depending on the game as i think Tera, that's just silly af, like the dev's were pissed at being hounded to make leveling faster or something, just no care put into that at all.
    UngoodAlBQuirky
    My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022

    Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)

    Currently Playing; Dragonflight and SWG:L
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,739
    Scot said:
    I don't think it is levelling that has made devs take their eyes of (as you aptly put it) "making the worlds more worldly".

    It is the casino gameplay, the live elements, the streamlining, the attempt to make MMOs appeal to every player. Part of the original concept of a MMORPG was to make a world players wanted to live in, where you paid for the game and a monthly subscription. Today the defining concept of a MMO is making a game players can sight see but want to spend money in. That huge shift is at the root of nearly every change we see.

    Yeah I saw that when WoW came around....The MMO scene shifted from a living breathing world to being entertained, kinda like going to the movies......Now we had to have voice acting and cutscenes in our games....People no longer wanted challenge, but just something to spend an hour on and move on.
    ScotAlBQuirky[Deleted User]
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 7,820
    Linear level progression is counterintuitive to an ongoing online game. The games never truly expand because you aren't adding to your relevant content - just replacing irrelevant content with relevant content.
    AlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,824
    Scot said:
    I don't think it is levelling that has made devs take their eyes of (as you aptly put it) "making the worlds more worldly".

    It is the casino gameplay, the live elements, the streamlining, the attempt to make MMOs appeal to every player. Part of the original concept of a MMORPG was to make a world players wanted to live in, where you paid for the game and a monthly subscription. Today the defining concept of a MMO is making a game players can sight see but want to spend money in. That huge shift is at the root of nearly every change we see.

    Yeah I saw that when WoW came around....The MMO scene shifted from a living breathing world to being entertained, kinda like going to the movies......Now we had to have voice acting and cutscenes in our games....People no longer wanted challenge, but just something to spend an hour on and move on.
    Notice that this was not just a casual friendly response, but pushed MMORPG's more in line with other forms of entertainment like a TV show, it was more to do with making games every player wanted to play even if all you had played before was an early mobile game like Snake.
    AlBQuirky
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member EpicPosts: 1,144
    edited April 2021
    Maurgrim said:
    Levels 1-50 type of MMO were you have to progress thrue a set of zones in your level range are boring as fuck.
    Thats one of many reasons I play ESO, ESO don't have that shit.
    Ironically, people complained Crowfalls was too quick.. because it's meant to teach you and get you into the action... not be core PVE content. 

    A lot of players have been trained by the industry that level cap should take 50hours+ (for normal experience).
    AlBQuirkyKyleran[Deleted User]
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2021
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • GroqstrongGroqstrong Member RarePosts: 815
    I would say they leveling method is tried and true formula for developers to use.  However I do feel like it is a missed opportunity for creative development.  For example if I were developing a game I would do away with the 1-50 level method and instead introduce Grand Quests.  You can have multiple per zone and upon completion you are presented with a choice.  For example you would recieve a unique weapon or armor that have rulesets or set bonuses, a skill, or a skill augment, or a skill level etc.  So the choices you make throughout the gameworld would shape the class you play.  Dont kill me its just a brainstorm.
    AlBQuirky
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  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,749
    For example if I were developing a game I would do away with the 1-50 level method and instead introduce Grand Quests.  You can have multiple per zone and upon completion you are presented with a choice.  For example you would recieve a unique weapon or armor that have rulesets or set bonuses, a skill, or a skill augment, or a skill level etc.  So the choices you make throughout the gameworld would shape the class you play.  Dont kill me its just a brainstorm.
    Wait, lemme go through it, so...
    No levels,
    long (-er than usual, multiple stages) quests,
    at the end of those you get unique gear piece (at the end of Issues),
    or could pick a skill (from the xp after general quests),
    and with those unlocked skills you shaped the "class" you play (since it was actually classless).

    You've pretty much described TSW...

    Guess what, it was "too difficult" (lol) so they've relaunched it with levels, level gates on quests and the world, item scores and gear grind.
    UngoodAlBQuirky
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member EpicPosts: 1,144
    edited April 2021
    Skill training is basically leveling by a different mechanism.  I would call it player customized leveling.  

    Can be just as grindy.
    [Deleted User]MendelAlBQuirky
  • GroqstrongGroqstrong Member RarePosts: 815
    Po_gg said:
    For example if I were developing a game I would do away with the 1-50 level method and instead introduce Grand Quests.  You can have multiple per zone and upon completion you are presented with a choice.  For example you would recieve a unique weapon or armor that have rulesets or set bonuses, a skill, or a skill augment, or a skill level etc.  So the choices you make throughout the gameworld would shape the class you play.  Dont kill me its just a brainstorm.
    Wait, lemme go through it, so...
    No levels,
    long (-er than usual, multiple stages) quests,
    at the end of those you get unique gear piece (at the end of Issues),
    or could pick a skill (from the xp after general quests),
    and with those unlocked skills you shaped the "class" you play (since it was actually classless).

    You've pretty much described TSW...

    Guess what, it was "too difficult" (lol) so they've relaunched it with levels, level gates on quests and the world, item scores and gear grind.
    Never played TSW, but did you like the old version or new version?
    AlBQuirky
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member EpicPosts: 1,144
    edited April 2021
    Tried EVE (PC) a few times, but the pure real time gated skill training was a hard pass for me.  Ridiculous concept IMO.

    [Deleted User]Po_ggMendelAlBQuirky
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member EpicPosts: 1,144
    tzervo said:
    Skill training is basically leveling by a different mechanism.  I would call it player customized leveling.  

    Can be just as grindy.
    Yes but it is more fine-grained. Instead of a single definitive number you have more flexibility in what to progress and what role/career to follow in the game world.
    But now we start talking about classes.  Because as you level, a lot of games have multiple skills to choose and skill trees to specialize in.

    I do agree, much more granular... but with pure skill system... you get meta morph few classes/builds IMO (vs classical MMORPGs like WoW).  I'm open to being corrected.

    Mortal Online and Mortal Online 2 sees this (pure skill based).  Trying to think of other skilled based MMORPGs.
    [Deleted User]MendelAlBQuirky
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