Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

MMORPG Guilds

2»

Comments

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,380
    Xodic said:

    They’re a critical part of community building in MMORPGs, but to my knowledge there hasn’t been much effort put into them over the decades. There have been a few games that made adjustments, but I think WoW and ESO, sadly, are the only ones to build on the idea of guilds with achievements, perks, guild trading, and other content related additions, at least in the sense of potentially making those features core.

    It surprises me, because I think guilds provide staying power for players, yet the same fundamental problems exist, such as single points of failure with absent guild leaders, limited configuration in how they can operate, lack of tools that help set, manage, and achieve goals. Guilds are essentially just a tag and a chat channel with a few permission flags, and it doesn’t help attract the growing amount of players wanting to solo an entire multi-player online game instead of actually finding people to play with. It’s something that I personally think should have had a lot more attention devoted to over the years.

    One aspect that I think needs to change are guild charters. There should be options to create a democratic system where the guild votes on every aspect of the guild, or a democratic republic where players elect leaders . It should be possible to create everything from a tribe to a corporate structure. There should be an ever growing list of options for how a guild is structured to accommodate the like-minded players within that guild. I think these types of ideals at conception would better help players come together, and stay together.

    What do you think, have guilds evolved the way you thought they would? Do you think their implementation are a key factor in a game’s player loss?

    In the state that most games release in today, it's not surprising that caring about and building tools for guilds has largely gone outside the game. Developers rarely even finish the core of games anymore, which is sad, so I am not surprised that support player associations have gone the way of the dodo in game.

    Crowfall is a great example. There is no way to join a guild from within the game, you gave to go the website and apply there and the GL has to go there to approve you. Crowfall being a very guild-centric game I would have thought that after 6 years(?) of production guilds might have gotten a little attention, but nah, let's make that convoluted as well. 

    Anyway, I agree with your points, more emphasis should be placed on guilds in games, especially in games that almost require a guild.
    ScotUngoodAlBQuirky

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,026
    edited April 4
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Guilds are a social answer to that old MMORPG question, "what happened to the community". I see posters saying why they don't like guilds, almost always this is because they went into a guild that was not for them. Think about your play style, do your research, you will find other players out there who play like you and guess what, they formed a guild!

    I have often talked before about the importance of guilds to MMO's, but rather than bang on again I will  just say if you have not tried a guild give it a go, you might be suprised at how good they can be.
    The main problem is, that most games don't give guilds a purpose to exist. Why this guild? What is this guild about? What is it's purpose?

    As you have read.. I was in a chillax guild, we were all happy, some wanted to raid, and the guild fell apart, either because the people that wanted to raid left, and others felt like the guild was dead end, or some such, and things happen.

    This is a problem, because the guild does not have focus. What is this guild about and for?

    This is why I think MMO's needed to make various Social Constructs that can simultaneously exist.

    IE:  One for just that tight knit group of people, often the people you know in real life, or have transcended games with, that is your little static. Akin to a Family, Clan or Unit. And these people should be able to have their own little construct that allows them to exist within other social constructs.

    Another for that larger group of just linked minded people that want to hang, ergo finding your tribe. People that you enjoy being with, but these are not your close clique, these are not your family, they are just your like minded people. Now this could just be people you would want to sit down and drink beer with, a social group as it were.

    Then of course, there should be groups that have goals. Teams or Organizations that want to be the best at something specific, be that raiding, crafting, WvW, or even something like "The Rangers Guild" where the goal of the whole guild is to be the best rangers in the game, but the group has that focus, a direct reason and gold they will work towards, and we we see that in some guilds, that they have a direct focus, (Mainly PvP and Raiding guild) and either you step up to that focus, or you find some other guild to be with. Some call this elitist, but, when it comes to things like MMO's, these organizations that have a focus, are imperative, they put in that Competitive Identity feeling to the game, and give people that feeling of being part of a team that they are playing ball for, as opposed to maybe a chillax group of people sitting on the couch eating pizza with, or just some tag that will invite anyone is looking for bodies to fill slots or some such.

    The major thing here, is that MMO developers could do things like this.. they could make these social constructs and build them into their game world, to build that community that keeps a game alive..

    But they don't.
    In my experience being able to join more than one guild just means you are never around in both, being able to form a guild within a guild causes even more problems like setting members against each other. That's not to say the I don't think they could be better, most release with very few guild management tools.
    AlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,642
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Guilds are a social answer to that old MMORPG question, "what happened to the community". I see posters saying why they don't like guilds, almost always this is because they went into a guild that was not for them. Think about your play style, do your research, you will find other players out there who play like you and guess what, they formed a guild!

    I have often talked before about the importance of guilds to MMO's, but rather than bang on again I will  just say if you have not tried a guild give it a go, you might be suprised at how good they can be.
    The main problem is, that most games don't give guilds a purpose to exist. Why this guild? What is this guild about? What is it's purpose?

    As you have read.. I was in a chillax guild, we were all happy, some wanted to raid, and the guild fell apart, either because the people that wanted to raid left, and others felt like the guild was dead end, or some such, and things happen.

    This is a problem, because the guild does not have focus. What is this guild about and for?

    This is why I think MMO's needed to make various Social Constructs that can simultaneously exist.

    IE:  One for just that tight knit group of people, often the people you know in real life, or have transcended games with, that is your little static. Akin to a Family, Clan or Unit. And these people should be able to have their own little construct that allows them to exist within other social constructs.

    Another for that larger group of just linked minded people that want to hang, ergo finding your tribe. People that you enjoy being with, but these are not your close clique, these are not your family, they are just your like minded people. Now this could just be people you would want to sit down and drink beer with, a social group as it were.

    Then of course, there should be groups that have goals. Teams or Organizations that want to be the best at something specific, be that raiding, crafting, WvW, or even something like "The Rangers Guild" where the goal of the whole guild is to be the best rangers in the game, but the group has that focus, a direct reason and gold they will work towards, and we we see that in some guilds, that they have a direct focus, (Mainly PvP and Raiding guild) and either you step up to that focus, or you find some other guild to be with. Some call this elitist, but, when it comes to things like MMO's, these organizations that have a focus, are imperative, they put in that Competitive Identity feeling to the game, and give people that feeling of being part of a team that they are playing ball for, as opposed to maybe a chillax group of people sitting on the couch eating pizza with, or just some tag that will invite anyone is looking for bodies to fill slots or some such.

    The major thing here, is that MMO developers could do things like this.. they could make these social constructs and build them into their game world, to build that community that keeps a game alive..

    But they don't.
    In my experience being able to join more than one guild just means you are never around in both, being able to form a guild within a guild causes even more problems like setting members against each other. That's not to say the I don't think they could be better, most release with very few guild management tools.
    That is only a problem, because, guild are vastly pointless in most MMO's. They really have little to no reason to exist in most games, and in the end, do hardly more than provide a chat channel, and a tag for people to brag about.

    Which, obviously, if the tag is all about bragging, you are going to have a mess of drama in that guild, which, for the most part, since Overall in MMO's guilds have no reason to exist beyond someone felt like making a guild, and invited a bunch of people into it, to make it famous, or whatever.

    As such, since guilds are vastly obscure in their reasons to exist, this will cause problems no matter what, and when you try to add additional things to that guild system, you will have problems, often derived from egotism and vanity of the people who run the guild, that feel their members should bow down and worship them.

    So with this set up, people would view Guilds within Guilds being somewhat equal, when they should not be, nor should they have anything in common.

    An MMO could make different social circles, with their own tools, and rules, and thus have their own value and hierarchy to the individual players as well, and once that is understood, things go pretty smooth.

    Case in point.

    I have my Job as a Social circle and commitment.

    I have my Family as a Social Circle and Commitment.

    I have my drinking/hunting Buddies as a Social Circle and Commitment.

    And then I have my gaming friends and such.

    There is some overlap with some members in these circles, obviously.

    But, I belong to all of them, each serving their own purpose, and each having their hierarchy in my life.

    My Hierarchy, might not be the same as others, but.. I don't give a shit what other people do with their life enough to care, I am going to talk about me.

    Case in point, my Family sits at the top, with the closest second being my Job, which I deal with and go to, to support my family, so, obviously if I was forced to pick, I would be looking for a new job, simple as that, and my employer knows this, as I make no bones about the fact that my family comes first in my life. 

    Then my Gamer Guilds and Hunting group, and truth be told, the Hunting group beats the Gaming.. just beats gaming end of discussion.

    So, if a game set it up, so that you could set up circles like that, where you have your In-game Family, You have organizations you join to achieve a common pre-set and established goal, then you have social group or groups.

    The people in the game would understand that just because you were all in the same Raid Guild, does not mean you have to all be in same Family, nor would everyone in the same family need to be in the same Guild. Just like my wife and I have very different jobs, so too could we have different goals in a MMO. I might want to join a Weapon Smith guild, she might want to be a Raiders Guild.

    and having that purpose, also sets guilds apart from their feeling that they should be your Friends, Family, and the All-in-Wonder only Social group you should ever need, which is really where all the problems start with to be honest. Where guilds, because of their lack of focus, feel they should be have all end all of their members social organizations.

    That's just archaic and silly, that is like Facebook saying you don't need to Twitter, and that you should not be on reddit, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, and that you only need one social platform.

    But that is how some guilds act, and that is also a huge part of the problem.
    XodicAlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,026
    edited April 5
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    The main problem is, that most games don't give guilds a purpose to exist. Why this guild? What is this guild about? What is it's purpose?

    As you have read.. I was in a chillax guild, we were all happy, some wanted to raid, and the guild fell apart, either because the people that wanted to raid left, and others felt like the guild was dead end, or some such, and things happen.

    This is a problem, because the guild does not have focus. What is this guild about and for?

    This is why I think MMO's needed to make various Social Constructs that can simultaneously exist.

    IE:  One for just that tight knit group of people, often the people you know in real life, or have transcended games with, that is your little static. Akin to a Family, Clan or Unit. And these people should be able to have their own little construct that allows them to exist within other social constructs.

    Another for that larger group of just linked minded people that want to hang, ergo finding your tribe. People that you enjoy being with, but these are not your close clique, these are not your family, they are just your like minded people. Now this could just be people you would want to sit down and drink beer with, a social group as it were.

    Then of course, there should be groups that have goals. Teams or Organizations that want to be the best at something specific, be that raiding, crafting, WvW, or even something like "The Rangers Guild" where the goal of the whole guild is to be the best rangers in the game, but the group has that focus, a direct reason and gold they will work towards, and we we see that in some guilds, that they have a direct focus, (Mainly PvP and Raiding guild) and either you step up to that focus, or you find some other guild to be with. Some call this elitist, but, when it comes to things like MMO's, these organizations that have a focus, are imperative, they put in that Competitive Identity feeling to the game, and give people that feeling of being part of a team that they are playing ball for, as opposed to maybe a chillax group of people sitting on the couch eating pizza with, or just some tag that will invite anyone is looking for bodies to fill slots or some such.

    The major thing here, is that MMO developers could do things like this.. they could make these social constructs and build them into their game world, to build that community that keeps a game alive..

    But they don't.
    That is only a problem, because, guild are vastly pointless in most MMO's. They really have little to no reason to exist in most games, and in the end, do hardly more than provide a chat channel, and a tag for people to brag about.

    Which, obviously, if the tag is all about bragging, you are going to have a mess of drama in that guild, which, for the most part, since Overall in MMO's guilds have no reason to exist beyond someone felt like making a guild, and invited a bunch of people into it, to make it famous, or whatever.

    As such, since guilds are vastly obscure in their reasons to exist, this will cause problems no matter what, and when you try to add additional things to that guild system, you will have problems, often derived from egotism and vanity of the people who run the guild, that feel their members should bow down and worship them.

    So with this set up, people would view Guilds within Guilds being somewhat equal, when they should not be, nor should they have anything in common.

    An MMO could make different social circles, with their own tools, and rules, and thus have their own value and hierarchy to the individual players as well, and once that is understood, things go pretty smooth.

    Case in point.

    I have my Job as a Social circle and commitment.

    I have my Family as a Social Circle and Commitment.

    I have my drinking/hunting Buddies as a Social Circle and Commitment.

    And then I have my gaming friends and such.

    There is some overlap with some members in these circles, obviously.

    But, I belong to all of them, each serving their own purpose, and each having their hierarchy in my life.

    My Hierarchy, might not be the same as others, but.. I don't give a shit what other people do with their life enough to care, I am going to talk about me.

    Case in point, my Family sits at the top, with the closest second being my Job, which I deal with and go to, to support my family, so, obviously if I was forced to pick, I would be looking for a new job, simple as that, and my employer knows this, as I make no bones about the fact that my family comes first in my life. 

    Then my Gamer Guilds and Hunting group, and truth be told, the Hunting group beats the Gaming.. just beats gaming end of discussion.

    So, if a game set it up, so that you could set up circles like that, where you have your In-game Family, You have organizations you join to achieve a common pre-set and established goal, then you have social group or groups.

    The people in the game would understand that just because you were all in the same Raid Guild, does not mean you have to all be in same Family, nor would everyone in the same family need to be in the same Guild. Just like my wife and I have very different jobs, so too could we have different goals in a MMO. I might want to join a Weapon Smith guild, she might want to be a Raiders Guild.

    and having that purpose, also sets guilds apart from their feeling that they should be your Friends, Family, and the All-in-Wonder only Social group you should ever need, which is really where all the problems start with to be honest. Where guilds, because of their lack of focus, feel they should be have all end all of their members social organizations.

    That's just archaic and silly, that is like Facebook saying you don't need to Twitter, and that you should not be on reddit, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, and that you only need one social platform.

    But that is how some guilds act, and that is also a huge part of the problem.
    You see multiple guilds and guild "nesting" as an evolution of the concept and better suited to MMOs of today. I see that as a dilution of what guilds stand for, impairing their ability to function well. I should say this is from past experience, I have seen these issues happen.

    That fact MMOs have changed under their feet is not the fault of guilds, you can have them being more meaningful to the game. You can have guild HQ's, guild territory, mock fights like in AoC. If MMOs are not going to do that guilds become less relevant. The ones I have stuck with know how much MMOs have changed but play our way despite what they throw at us. Play the game the way you want to as much as you can, not taking part in everything from casino gameplay to dailies if you don't want to.
    AlBQuirky
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,737
    Rungar said:
    I would much prefer npc guilds you could join to find likeminded players rather than player guilds. Chopping the head off that undead structure wont hurt it at all.  

    That's interesting. You would have a solid base of NPCs that "run" the Guild. Maybe some special "quests" (NOT chores) that players can group up to accomplish?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,737
    Reading through Scot's and Ungood's conversation, it seems like some of the BIGGER guilds had many aspects to them. I've never experienced this, but some had crafters that supported the other areas like raiders, questers (like EQ's Epic Quests), and PvPers. I heard about many different cogs in the big machine that seemed to work well, somewhat :)
    Ungood

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 460
    well the way i figure it you can have npc guilds for every type of activity and with "local " branches. Players who join these guilds can contribute and rise ranks within the guild unlocking various things like chat functions based off of accomplishments, special vendors, guild halls you can contribute to and build up. Its really just integrated gameplay.  

    Player guilds are just not worthy lol. Its always the same. They form cliques and your experience may vary greatly depending on whether your in the clique or not. 
    AlBQuirky
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,642
    Scot said:
    You see multiple guilds and guild "nesting" as an evolution of the concept and better suited to MMOs of today. 
    Yes, this is exactly what I see, and truly the next evolution of the "guild" concept, if it ever plans to remain relevant going forward in MMO's.

    Scot said:
    I see that as a dilution of what guilds stand for, impairing their ability to function well. I should say this is from past experience, I have seen these issues happen.
    Guilds don't have any meaning in an MMO, in fact, they never have. They don't stand for anything either, they are for the most part, when you really look at them, nothing more them some social tag, led by people that felt they should have a monopoly on your In-Game social life.

    And that kind of limitation, really has no place in the Modern MMO.

    I mean unless the guild offers something truly great to it's player, often in the form of benefits both inside and outside the game, You could replace guilds with Chat Channels, and it would make no difference to the overall purpose that guilds serve in MMOs.

    With things like Discord, guilds serve even less a purpose overall, as the players that want to be on top of things, and working as a team, can just all join a Discord Channel, with no need to worry about joining guilds or dealing with any of those kludgey issues, and instantly be in harmony with each other on voice chat, with zero obligations, and zero drama.

    Which ideally is what the modern gamer, young and old want, a game with less drama and BS, and more, just playing and having fun.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,026
    edited April 5
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    You see multiple guilds and guild "nesting" as an evolution of the concept and better suited to MMOs of today. 
    Yes, this is exactly what I see, and truly the next evolution of the "guild" concept, if it ever plans to remain relevant going forward in MMO's.

    Scot said:
    I see that as a dilution of what guilds stand for, impairing their ability to function well. I should say this is from past experience, I have seen these issues happen.
    Guilds don't have any meaning in an MMO, in fact, they never have. They don't stand for anything either, they are for the most part, when you really look at them, nothing more them some social tag, led by people that felt they should have a monopoly on your In-Game social life.

    And that kind of limitation, really has no place in the Modern MMO.

    I mean unless the guild offers something truly great to it's player, often in the form of benefits both inside and outside the game, You could replace guilds with Chat Channels, and it would make no difference to the overall purpose that guilds serve in MMOs.

    With things like Discord, guilds serve even less a purpose overall, as the players that want to be on top of things, and working as a team, can just all join a Discord Channel, with no need to worry about joining guilds or dealing with any of those kludgey issues, and instantly be in harmony with each other on voice chat, with zero obligations, and zero drama.

    Which ideally is what the modern gamer, young and old want, a game with less drama and BS, and more, just playing and having fun.
    Guilds can and do offer in game advantages it depends on the MMO. I am of the position that social media is an answer to nothing, the idea it can stand in for guilds is an anathema to me.

    "in harmony with each other on voice chat, with zero obligations, and zero drama." You are a casual guild guy, that would suit you down to the ground.

    Finally are you saying that you don't get "drama and bullshit" on Discord or other social media? You only get that in guilds because you get that anywhere people get together.
    AlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,642
    edited April 5
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    You see multiple guilds and guild "nesting" as an evolution of the concept and better suited to MMOs of today. 
    Yes, this is exactly what I see, and truly the next evolution of the "guild" concept, if it ever plans to remain relevant going forward in MMO's.

    Scot said:
    I see that as a dilution of what guilds stand for, impairing their ability to function well. I should say this is from past experience, I have seen these issues happen.
    Guilds don't have any meaning in an MMO, in fact, they never have. They don't stand for anything either, they are for the most part, when you really look at them, nothing more them some social tag, led by people that felt they should have a monopoly on your In-Game social life.

    And that kind of limitation, really has no place in the Modern MMO.

    I mean unless the guild offers something truly great to it's player, often in the form of benefits both inside and outside the game, You could replace guilds with Chat Channels, and it would make no difference to the overall purpose that guilds serve in MMOs.

    With things like Discord, guilds serve even less a purpose overall, as the players that want to be on top of things, and working as a team, can just all join a Discord Channel, with no need to worry about joining guilds or dealing with any of those kludgey issues, and instantly be in harmony with each other on voice chat, with zero obligations, and zero drama.

    Which ideally is what the modern gamer, young and old want, a game with less drama and BS, and more, just playing and having fun.
    Guilds can and do offer in game advantages it depends on the MMO. I am of the position that social media is an answer to nothing, the idea it can stand in for guilds is an anathema to me.

    "in harmony with each other on voice chat, with zero obligations, and zero drama." You are a casual guild guy, that would suit you down to the ground.

    Finally are you saying that you don't get "drama and bullshit" on Discord or other social media? You only get that in guilds because you get that anywhere people get together.
    When I join a discord channel, I don't get the owner of the channel having a butthurt if I am also on a dozen other channels, and they don't feel bad that I am just using that channel to talk with the people running an event, and that I will only partake in that channel as far as it serves me, If that is only for a dungeon run, then that is all it is for, if that is for the next 3 hours of WvW, than that is what it is for. No obligations, no hard feelings when I sign off and go chat with my buds on a different channel to talk about frying fish or some bullshit.

    On top of that, I can mute people on a discord channel with zero give-a-shits or hearing about how they are supposed to be my guild mate or some such bullshit, and most of the time when I have ever seen drama on a discord channel is when it was a guild run channel, and the leaders flexing their e-peen.

    As for the advantages. Sure, some games do have guilds offering advantages, like DDO, has guild buffs, which is a direct character power advantage. GW2, also provided some advantages to being in a guild with merchants and harvesting nodes. Overall, not enough an advantage to put up with drama, and nothing special or unique to that guild that would make one guild any better than another.

    Which again, goes back to my point, of a "Guild" having a purpose, like a Weapon smiths guild, that can provide direst amenities for weapon smiting, and a focus into that craft, this giving the Guild an actual direction and reason to exist, as opposed "Four Twenty", of chillax pot smokers, or "Epeen Inc" of elitists hardcore raiders.. and outside the attitude of the people in charge, there is no real or intrinsic difference between them or what they can provide.

    They both have the same boons and amenities, which means, I am just going to join the guild that gives me the best rewards for the least drama.

    Ideally, if the Guild Leaders didn't have their heads shoved up their rectums, they would grasp that I would in fact want to join them both, one to raid with, and one to chill with. because lets get real, the raiders might be real good at raiding, have their shit down, and know their game, but over all, In my person experience, and keep in mind, this is just my personality, but, having joined a few raiding guilds, they are about as enjoyable to chill with for me, as rubbing sandpaper across my nuts while taking an alcohol bath.

    The fact that they can't get it in their heads, that I also want a circle of people to just chill with, makes my point even more abundant that these people are just Unfun to hang with, and not the people that I can relax with. Which, because these guild leaders feel they should own my social circle, and get all drama rage about it, I end up leaving them.

    I just don't enjoy those kinds of control freaks, even if I do enjoy the loot from raids.

    This is why the idea of this premise that a guild should be your all-in-one social stop is just downright stupid, and that we need a far better system.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,642
    AlBQuirky said:
    Reading through Scot's and Ungood's conversation, it seems like some of the BIGGER guilds had many aspects to them. I've never experienced this, but some had crafters that supported the other areas like raiders, questers (like EQ's Epic Quests), and PvPers. I heard about many different cogs in the big machine that seemed to work well, somewhat :)
    Yes. This was quite common for some of the larger guilds to fund guild crafters, often this crafter would be an officer and friend of the Guild Leader, so there was little to no risk of them leaving the guild after being funded to max level. This Officer would then work with the other wanna-be crafters in the guild, depending on the game, having them earn their DKP's by gathering resources and feeding the guild with raw materials to build their crafting deposits to quip their more combat style players.

    I have only directly experienced this in a few games, EQ, DAOC, DDO, and Crowfall. Which Crowfall and DAOC make sense, as the crafters support the "war effort" so it worked for those games to use that method.

    EQ, was just simple cost mechanics, where the guild would fund a crafter in both money to advance their craft, and then get what we needed at cost to make. It worked for that game as well.

    DDO.. to be honest, this only happened because crafting was such a shit show that only the really rich and players with huge wallets to burn could play with it, as such, some top raiding guilds that felt they needed to be day 1, first place, funded a crafter, Just so they could say they have the best crafter in the game, first. Honestly, AFIK, crafting in DDO is like a dead fish, that just floats around stinking up the place.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,026
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    You see multiple guilds and guild "nesting" as an evolution of the concept and better suited to MMOs of today. 
    Yes, this is exactly what I see, and truly the next evolution of the "guild" concept, if it ever plans to remain relevant going forward in MMO's.

    Scot said:
    I see that as a dilution of what guilds stand for, impairing their ability to function well. I should say this is from past experience, I have seen these issues happen.
    Guilds don't have any meaning in an MMO, in fact, they never have. They don't stand for anything either, they are for the most part, when you really look at them, nothing more them some social tag, led by people that felt they should have a monopoly on your In-Game social life.

    And that kind of limitation, really has no place in the Modern MMO.

    I mean unless the guild offers something truly great to it's player, often in the form of benefits both inside and outside the game, You could replace guilds with Chat Channels, and it would make no difference to the overall purpose that guilds serve in MMOs.

    With things like Discord, guilds serve even less a purpose overall, as the players that want to be on top of things, and working as a team, can just all join a Discord Channel, with no need to worry about joining guilds or dealing with any of those kludgey issues, and instantly be in harmony with each other on voice chat, with zero obligations, and zero drama.

    Which ideally is what the modern gamer, young and old want, a game with less drama and BS, and more, just playing and having fun.
    Guilds can and do offer in game advantages it depends on the MMO. I am of the position that social media is an answer to nothing, the idea it can stand in for guilds is an anathema to me.

    "in harmony with each other on voice chat, with zero obligations, and zero drama." You are a casual guild guy, that would suit you down to the ground.

    Finally are you saying that you don't get "drama and bullshit" on Discord or other social media? You only get that in guilds because you get that anywhere people get together.
    When I join a discord channel, I don't get the owner of the channel having a butthurt if I am also on a dozen other channels, and they don't feel bad that I am just using that channel to talk with the people running an event, and that I will only partake in that channel as far as it serves me, If that is only for a dungeon run, then that is all it is for, if that is for the next 3 hours of WvW, than that is what it is for. No obligations, no hard feelings when I sign off and go chat with my buds on a different channel to talk about frying fish or some bullshit.

    On top of that, I can mute people on a discord channel with zero give-a-shits or hearing about how they are supposed to be my guild mate or some such bullshit, and most of the time when I have ever seen drama on a discord channel is when it was a guild run channel, and the leaders flexing their e-peen.

    As for the advantages. Sure, some games do have guilds offering advantages, like DDO, has guild buffs, which is a direct character power advantage. GW2, also provided some advantages to being in a guild with merchants and harvesting nodes. Overall, not enough an advantage to put up with drama, and nothing special or unique to that guild that would make one guild any better than another.

    Which again, goes back to my point, of a "Guild" having a purpose, like a Weapon smiths guild, that can provide direst amenities for weapon smiting, and a focus into that craft, this giving the Guild an actual direction and reason to exist, as opposed "Four Twenty", of chillax pot smokers, or "Epeen Inc" of elitists hardcore raiders.. and outside the attitude of the people in charge, there is no real or intrinsic difference between them or what they can provide.

    They both have the same boons and amenities, which means, I am just going to join the guild that gives me the best rewards for the least drama.

    Ideally, if the Guild Leaders didn't have their heads shoved up their rectums, they would grasp that I would in fact want to join them both, one to raid with, and one to chill with. because lets get real, the raiders might be real good at raiding, have their shit down, and know their game, but over all, In my person experience, and keep in mind, this is just my personality, but, having joined a few raiding guilds, they are about as enjoyable to chill with for me, as rubbing sandpaper across my nuts while taking an alcohol bath.

    The fact that they can't get it in their heads, that I also want a circle of people to just chill with, makes my point even more abundant that these people are just Unfun to hang with, and not the people that I can relax with. Which, because these guild leaders feel they should own my social circle, and get all drama rage about it, I end up leaving them.

    I just don't enjoy those kinds of control freaks, even if I do enjoy the loot from raids.

    This is why the idea of this premise that a guild should be your all-in-one social stop is just downright stupid, and that we need a far better system.
    I am just so glad I have never met the players you have in guilds, it is clear that has totally framed where we stand on this. All I will say for those who want to join a guild is do your research and leave early if the guild is not for you. Otherwise you may end up like Ungood.
    AlBQuirkyTwistedSister77Slapshot1188
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,642
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    You see multiple guilds and guild "nesting" as an evolution of the concept and better suited to MMOs of today. 
    Yes, this is exactly what I see, and truly the next evolution of the "guild" concept, if it ever plans to remain relevant going forward in MMO's.

    Scot said:
    I see that as a dilution of what guilds stand for, impairing their ability to function well. I should say this is from past experience, I have seen these issues happen.
    Guilds don't have any meaning in an MMO, in fact, they never have. They don't stand for anything either, they are for the most part, when you really look at them, nothing more them some social tag, led by people that felt they should have a monopoly on your In-Game social life.

    And that kind of limitation, really has no place in the Modern MMO.

    I mean unless the guild offers something truly great to it's player, often in the form of benefits both inside and outside the game, You could replace guilds with Chat Channels, and it would make no difference to the overall purpose that guilds serve in MMOs.

    With things like Discord, guilds serve even less a purpose overall, as the players that want to be on top of things, and working as a team, can just all join a Discord Channel, with no need to worry about joining guilds or dealing with any of those kludgey issues, and instantly be in harmony with each other on voice chat, with zero obligations, and zero drama.

    Which ideally is what the modern gamer, young and old want, a game with less drama and BS, and more, just playing and having fun.
    Guilds can and do offer in game advantages it depends on the MMO. I am of the position that social media is an answer to nothing, the idea it can stand in for guilds is an anathema to me.

    "in harmony with each other on voice chat, with zero obligations, and zero drama." You are a casual guild guy, that would suit you down to the ground.

    Finally are you saying that you don't get "drama and bullshit" on Discord or other social media? You only get that in guilds because you get that anywhere people get together.
    When I join a discord channel, I don't get the owner of the channel having a butthurt if I am also on a dozen other channels, and they don't feel bad that I am just using that channel to talk with the people running an event, and that I will only partake in that channel as far as it serves me, If that is only for a dungeon run, then that is all it is for, if that is for the next 3 hours of WvW, than that is what it is for. No obligations, no hard feelings when I sign off and go chat with my buds on a different channel to talk about frying fish or some bullshit.

    On top of that, I can mute people on a discord channel with zero give-a-shits or hearing about how they are supposed to be my guild mate or some such bullshit, and most of the time when I have ever seen drama on a discord channel is when it was a guild run channel, and the leaders flexing their e-peen.

    As for the advantages. Sure, some games do have guilds offering advantages, like DDO, has guild buffs, which is a direct character power advantage. GW2, also provided some advantages to being in a guild with merchants and harvesting nodes. Overall, not enough an advantage to put up with drama, and nothing special or unique to that guild that would make one guild any better than another.

    Which again, goes back to my point, of a "Guild" having a purpose, like a Weapon smiths guild, that can provide direst amenities for weapon smiting, and a focus into that craft, this giving the Guild an actual direction and reason to exist, as opposed "Four Twenty", of chillax pot smokers, or "Epeen Inc" of elitists hardcore raiders.. and outside the attitude of the people in charge, there is no real or intrinsic difference between them or what they can provide.

    They both have the same boons and amenities, which means, I am just going to join the guild that gives me the best rewards for the least drama.

    Ideally, if the Guild Leaders didn't have their heads shoved up their rectums, they would grasp that I would in fact want to join them both, one to raid with, and one to chill with. because lets get real, the raiders might be real good at raiding, have their shit down, and know their game, but over all, In my person experience, and keep in mind, this is just my personality, but, having joined a few raiding guilds, they are about as enjoyable to chill with for me, as rubbing sandpaper across my nuts while taking an alcohol bath.

    The fact that they can't get it in their heads, that I also want a circle of people to just chill with, makes my point even more abundant that these people are just Unfun to hang with, and not the people that I can relax with. Which, because these guild leaders feel they should own my social circle, and get all drama rage about it, I end up leaving them.

    I just don't enjoy those kinds of control freaks, even if I do enjoy the loot from raids.

    This is why the idea of this premise that a guild should be your all-in-one social stop is just downright stupid, and that we need a far better system.
    I am just so glad I have never met the players you have in guilds, it is clear that has totally framed where we stand on this. All I will say for those who want to join a guild is do your research and leave early if the guild is not for you. Otherwise you may end up like Ungood.
    Making this personal, and attacking me directly, does not discredit my points, it just invalidates yours.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,026
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    You see multiple guilds and guild "nesting" as an evolution of the concept and better suited to MMOs of today. 
    Yes, this is exactly what I see, and truly the next evolution of the "guild" concept, if it ever plans to remain relevant going forward in MMO's.

    Scot said:
    I see that as a dilution of what guilds stand for, impairing their ability to function well. I should say this is from past experience, I have seen these issues happen.
    Guilds don't have any meaning in an MMO, in fact, they never have. They don't stand for anything either, they are for the most part, when you really look at them, nothing more them some social tag, led by people that felt they should have a monopoly on your In-Game social life.

    And that kind of limitation, really has no place in the Modern MMO.

    I mean unless the guild offers something truly great to it's player, often in the form of benefits both inside and outside the game, You could replace guilds with Chat Channels, and it would make no difference to the overall purpose that guilds serve in MMOs.

    With things like Discord, guilds serve even less a purpose overall, as the players that want to be on top of things, and working as a team, can just all join a Discord Channel, with no need to worry about joining guilds or dealing with any of those kludgey issues, and instantly be in harmony with each other on voice chat, with zero obligations, and zero drama.

    Which ideally is what the modern gamer, young and old want, a game with less drama and BS, and more, just playing and having fun.
    Guilds can and do offer in game advantages it depends on the MMO. I am of the position that social media is an answer to nothing, the idea it can stand in for guilds is an anathema to me.

    "in harmony with each other on voice chat, with zero obligations, and zero drama." You are a casual guild guy, that would suit you down to the ground.

    Finally are you saying that you don't get "drama and bullshit" on Discord or other social media? You only get that in guilds because you get that anywhere people get together.
    When I join a discord channel, I don't get the owner of the channel having a butthurt if I am also on a dozen other channels, and they don't feel bad that I am just using that channel to talk with the people running an event, and that I will only partake in that channel as far as it serves me, If that is only for a dungeon run, then that is all it is for, if that is for the next 3 hours of WvW, than that is what it is for. No obligations, no hard feelings when I sign off and go chat with my buds on a different channel to talk about frying fish or some bullshit.

    On top of that, I can mute people on a discord channel with zero give-a-shits or hearing about how they are supposed to be my guild mate or some such bullshit, and most of the time when I have ever seen drama on a discord channel is when it was a guild run channel, and the leaders flexing their e-peen.

    As for the advantages. Sure, some games do have guilds offering advantages, like DDO, has guild buffs, which is a direct character power advantage. GW2, also provided some advantages to being in a guild with merchants and harvesting nodes. Overall, not enough an advantage to put up with drama, and nothing special or unique to that guild that would make one guild any better than another.

    Which again, goes back to my point, of a "Guild" having a purpose, like a Weapon smiths guild, that can provide direst amenities for weapon smiting, and a focus into that craft, this giving the Guild an actual direction and reason to exist, as opposed "Four Twenty", of chillax pot smokers, or "Epeen Inc" of elitists hardcore raiders.. and outside the attitude of the people in charge, there is no real or intrinsic difference between them or what they can provide.

    They both have the same boons and amenities, which means, I am just going to join the guild that gives me the best rewards for the least drama.

    Ideally, if the Guild Leaders didn't have their heads shoved up their rectums, they would grasp that I would in fact want to join them both, one to raid with, and one to chill with. because lets get real, the raiders might be real good at raiding, have their shit down, and know their game, but over all, In my person experience, and keep in mind, this is just my personality, but, having joined a few raiding guilds, they are about as enjoyable to chill with for me, as rubbing sandpaper across my nuts while taking an alcohol bath.

    The fact that they can't get it in their heads, that I also want a circle of people to just chill with, makes my point even more abundant that these people are just Unfun to hang with, and not the people that I can relax with. Which, because these guild leaders feel they should own my social circle, and get all drama rage about it, I end up leaving them.

    I just don't enjoy those kinds of control freaks, even if I do enjoy the loot from raids.

    This is why the idea of this premise that a guild should be your all-in-one social stop is just downright stupid, and that we need a far better system.
    I am just so glad I have never met the players you have in guilds, it is clear that has totally framed where we stand on this. All I will say for those who want to join a guild is do your research and leave early if the guild is not for you. Otherwise you may end up like Ungood.
    Making this personal, and attacking me directly, does not discredit my points, it just invalidates yours.
    Good lord, you you really think that's a personal attack? I am pointing out that our experience has formed our opinions here. Which is perfectly natural, obviously I hope players have the experiences I had so they want to take guilds forward. Anyway I think we have covered this, but I leave you to have the last word if you wish.
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member RarePosts: 795
    edited April 6
    Personal guild experiences vary, I research guilds before accepting an invite or applying.  (Adult guilds only, non-hardcore).

    Even then, a few bad experiences- joined a US Military run guild (so I assumed it would be mature) in STWOR (was invited after seeing me play in pvp matches) and played for 2 hours with 2 other members.  One round of HUTBALL we lost (we were just 3 the rest were other players), I was flammed... guild kicked.  Then flammed some more.

    I contacted the guild leader and said what is up with your guild, he apologized for the asshats in his guild (they were young) and reinvited me... I cordially declined.

    On the other hand, I've joined a lot of awesome guilds with PvP, Raids, RPG events... and tutoring for classes.  Plus free gear and items for guild members.
    AlBQuirkyUngoodScot
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,642
    edited April 6
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    When I join a discord channel, I don't get the owner of the channel having a butthurt if I am also on a dozen other channels, and they don't feel bad that I am just using that channel to talk with the people running an event, and that I will only partake in that channel as far as it serves me, If that is only for a dungeon run, then that is all it is for, if that is for the next 3 hours of WvW, than that is what it is for. No obligations, no hard feelings when I sign off and go chat with my buds on a different channel to talk about frying fish or some bullshit.

    On top of that, I can mute people on a discord channel with zero give-a-shits or hearing about how they are supposed to be my guild mate or some such bullshit, and most of the time when I have ever seen drama on a discord channel is when it was a guild run channel, and the leaders flexing their e-peen.

    As for the advantages. Sure, some games do have guilds offering advantages, like DDO, has guild buffs, which is a direct character power advantage. GW2, also provided some advantages to being in a guild with merchants and harvesting nodes. Overall, not enough an advantage to put up with drama, and nothing special or unique to that guild that would make one guild any better than another.

    Which again, goes back to my point, of a "Guild" having a purpose, like a Weapon smiths guild, that can provide direst amenities for weapon smiting, and a focus into that craft, this giving the Guild an actual direction and reason to exist, as opposed "Four Twenty", of chillax pot smokers, or "Epeen Inc" of elitists hardcore raiders.. and outside the attitude of the people in charge, there is no real or intrinsic difference between them or what they can provide.

    They both have the same boons and amenities, which means, I am just going to join the guild that gives me the best rewards for the least drama.

    Ideally, if the Guild Leaders didn't have their heads shoved up their rectums, they would grasp that I would in fact want to join them both, one to raid with, and one to chill with. because lets get real, the raiders might be real good at raiding, have their shit down, and know their game, but over all, In my person experience, and keep in mind, this is just my personality, but, having joined a few raiding guilds, they are about as enjoyable to chill with for me, as rubbing sandpaper across my nuts while taking an alcohol bath.

    The fact that they can't get it in their heads, that I also want a circle of people to just chill with, makes my point even more abundant that these people are just Unfun to hang with, and not the people that I can relax with. Which, because these guild leaders feel they should own my social circle, and get all drama rage about it, I end up leaving them.

    I just don't enjoy those kinds of control freaks, even if I do enjoy the loot from raids.

    This is why the idea of this premise that a guild should be your all-in-one social stop is just downright stupid, and that we need a far better system.
    I am just so glad I have never met the players you have in guilds, it is clear that has totally framed where we stand on this. All I will say for those who want to join a guild is do your research and leave early if the guild is not for you. Otherwise you may end up like Ungood.
    Making this personal, and attacking me directly, does not discredit my points, it just invalidates yours.
    Good lord, you you really think that's a personal attack? I am pointing out that our experience has formed our opinions here. Which is perfectly natural, obviously I hope players have the experiences I had so they want to take guilds forward. Anyway I think we have covered this, but I leave you to have the last word if you wish.
    Of course it's a personal attack, when you say things like this:

    Otherwise you may end up like Ungood.

    You are making it about me, as opposed to guilds, or the guild mechanic, or the guild system, you took the direct approach to attack me, as a person, in doing such, just shows the complete failing of being able to support any viability of your own stand, or any usefulness of guilds as they are today.

    As the saying goes:

    "When the Debate is Lost, Slander becomes the tool of the loser"

    I stand by my point that the Evolution of Guilds is to remove them as just pointless, directionless social things they are now, and give them actual in-game purposes, that have a reason to exist.

    This is why having Social Systems set up for what would be a in-game Family, is important, and a viable tier in and of it's own right.

    What would be an In-game Organization with a Focus IE: Weapon Smiths Guilds, serves a purpose, and attracts direct like minded people, to all share in a similar goal of pursuit of that direct style of gaming. (As others have pointed out, lacking this direction has led to the death of guilds)

    And of course there should be a Social Lodge like set up (Current incarnation of most MMO Guilds), so players can just hang with people that want to chill with, maybe do things together are more spur of the moment, just you know, people you want to play with/hang with.

    Making these kinds of Social Systems in an MMO, would make for the best future to build these various, independent social aspect of an MMO, each with their value, purpose and reasons to exist, as opposed to some all-in-wonder contraption that exists in MMO's today.

    Just saying something along the lines of "OMG I hope everyone has the amazing times I have had in a guild" address absolutely nothing about the real existing conditions that many face in MMO dealing with Guilds, and mechanical problems with the way guilds are currently handled in games, or any of my points directly.
    Post edited by Ungood on
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Sign In or Register to comment.