Just like I say about CU and Crowfall. It's time to shit or get off the pot. It's time to move things forward. Opening up will push that, but I have a feeling staying closed is about controlling the backlash over lack of progress and all the flaws.
Just a correction to you on Crowfall, they had a free open beta last summer with no NDA. Also, I see a ton of player made vids after every alpha build recently... so not sure if it's under NDA or they are just not enforcing it.
I expect them to have another free open beta before launch with no NDA. The last one was pretty popular.
I think you are both right about CF and let me explain why...
Torval basically said they need to 'put up' which I 100% agree with cause CF is now trying to ignore the obvious elephant in the room by adding their battle royale mode. Battle Royale mode is NOT what backers gave them money for the same with CU's side project. I can tell you with almost 100% certainty and I've been saying it for years now that Unity cannot handle what they promised which is large scale OW pvp battles. When you have hundreds of people logging into the game from all over the world in a small area activating abilities + doing other things Unity will literally crash. Remember a while ago when they said they were working with Unity on that then shortly after HUNGER DOME was announced? My GUESS is that Unity told them they can only handle exactly what they are doing in their hunger dome mode so they are hoping that catches on so they can avoid open world pvp OR that the population participating in OW PVP is limited because many will be in the one zone instanced 90 person Hunger Dome.
I can definitely see CF coming up with something like zones for CF as crazy as it sounds to limit the number of people in any specific area.
The numbers 'testing' CF now will not be anything close to the number of people logging in when the game launches and shortly afterward. They know this, they have the sales numbers. What I mean is after launch is when all the full-time hardcore people will start up.
I hope I'm wrong about everything I just wrote though cause I want the game to succeed in the way it was originally presented as a large scale OW PVP game with deep customization.
Yup I agree with all of that. As for the zones, they already have that. There are multiple "zones" in each campaign that split up the players. Some are for adventuring and some are for sieging. I think the problem is that when there is a big siege, people will flood that zone. I can see "zone sitting" being a meta strategy where a guild gets 100 people to log into a zone and sit there all day so others cannot enter and defend/attack.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
About AoC... at this point what is the difference between announcing 1-3 dungeons, 7-8 dungeons or 10-12 dungeons? Cause 7-8 dungeons makes it seem like they have their shit together fooling people with money to put down their guard and give them some of it.
In 5 years all these scams will hopefully be done and we can go over in detail which one was the scammiest. While CU seems 'unchanged' certain ones like this and Pantheon seem to be doubling down so 2021 should be an interesting year.
Not only that, but without context to that number it's meaningless. 7-8 dungeons that are 3 rooms deep? Are they cut and paste from each other? Do they all contain multiple levels and hours of unique gameplay? Huge difference.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Oh ok...you're talking about overprivileged in real life. Like rich people. Almost like a class warfare within the gaming community context. I wasn't really talking about that.
I was referring more so to that if a company puts something up for sale and you just want it for free because "cuz", that is overprivileged compared to someone willing to pay for it.
About AoC... at this point what is the difference between announcing 1-3 dungeons, 7-8 dungeons or 10-12 dungeons? Cause 7-8 dungeons makes it seem like they have their shit together fooling people with money to put down their guard and give them some of it.
In 5 years all these scams will hopefully be done and we can go over in detail which one was the scammiest. While CU seems 'unchanged' certain ones like this and Pantheon seem to be doubling down so 2021 should be an interesting year.
Not only that, but without context to that number it's meaningless. 7-8 dungeons that are 3 rooms deep? Are they cut and paste from each other? Do they all contain multiple levels and hours of unique gameplay? Huge difference.
According to the Lazy Peon video, you can't even unlock the dungeons or further levels in the dungeons... unless the regional node is advancing.
So, did they show full progress on fully working nodes? The biggest keystone feature of the game.
About AoC... at this point what is the difference between announcing 1-3 dungeons, 7-8 dungeons or 10-12 dungeons? Cause 7-8 dungeons makes it seem like they have their shit together fooling people with money to put down their guard and give them some of it.
In 5 years all these scams will hopefully be done and we can go over in detail which one was the scammiest. While CU seems 'unchanged' certain ones like this and Pantheon seem to be doubling down so 2021 should be an interesting year.
This is just not what's happening with AOC. The NDA is literally scheduled to drop May 14th, the day of the Alpha 1 preview event, two weeks before the start of official Alpha 1. Furthermore, they set the date of when NDA was dropping MONTHS in advance. So people can clearly see and base purchasing decisions off of that. If the intent was to drive sales, you don't let people know when the NDA is dropping months in advance. Now people know they don't have to buy into anything, they can just see it all streamed.
Furtherfurthermore, AOC paused cosmetic sales for months during covid. They had been putting out a new cosmetic pack monthly, and at the height of covid they paused sales of new cosmetics for MONTHS because of financial hardship people were having around the world.
I'm really not trying to white knight here, but my god, there's a company here that is for the most part trying to do the right thing with it's development process, in a sea of wrong from nearly every other company...and it's like, I dunno. Two different realities going on for people or something.
About AoC... at this point what is the difference between announcing 1-3 dungeons, 7-8 dungeons or 10-12 dungeons? Cause 7-8 dungeons makes it seem like they have their shit together fooling people with money to put down their guard and give them some of it.
In 5 years all these scams will hopefully be done and we can go over in detail which one was the scammiest. While CU seems 'unchanged' certain ones like this and Pantheon seem to be doubling down so 2021 should be an interesting year.
This is just not what's happening with AOC. The NDA is literally scheduled to drop May 14th, the day of the Alpha 1 preview event, two weeks before the start of official Alpha 1. Furthermore, they set the date of when NDA was dropping MONTHS in advance. So people can clearly see and base purchasing decisions off of that. If the intent was to drive sales, you don't let people know when the NDA is dropping months in advance. Now people know they don't have to buy into anything, they can just see it all streamed.
Furtherfurthermore, AOC paused cosmetic sales for months during covid. They had been putting out a new cosmetic pack monthly, and at the height of covid they paused sales of new cosmetics for MONTHS because of financial hardship people were having around the world.
I'm really not trying to white knight here, but my god, there's a company here that is for the most part trying to do the right thing with it's development process, in a sea of wrong from nearly every other company...and it's like, I dunno. Two different realities going on for people or something.
If I asked you a few months ago when the NDA was going to drop what date would you have given me? It likely would have been March 19th right? Because that was SUPPOSED to be when the previously delayed Alpha was going to start and when the NDA was going to drop. So I would not give all that much credence to any date in the future. Could it happen? Sure. Will it? Who knows. All we know is that there is a new, new date for it.
Two different realities sure is right...
Lets see when they magically open the store and start to sell Alpha test access again. They sell million of dollars of pixel art and stuff which is amazing for a game that the owner said was fully funded (yet never actually backed that up with numbers).
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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Yes they've shown functioning nodes. Not fully functioning. Nodes have levels up to level 5. They've shown up to level 3 and I'm pretty sure Alpha 1 is only going to cover up to level 3.
But yeah in one of their live streams they set it up to where a node only needed 1 more mob killed worth of experience in order for it to level up. They killed the mob on stream and the area instantly turned into like a little mini village with npcs and stuff.
You're a real stickler Slapshot. I'd hate to work for you haha. JK. Yeah they delayed NDA drop by ~2 months recently. The story was that in the previous Alpha preview they ran into unforeseen net code problems. That certainly wasn't news I wanted to hear. And the thought did hit me, oh boy here we go with this shit again.
But whats your point. That's game development. New dates were set. They're not ridiculous Amazon New World dates, "sorry we were a little off, pushing release back a year." It's 2 months. Could it happen again? Yeah.
But that wasn't the point of what this thread was really talking about. The main context of this thread was if they're trying to fleece people out of their money. I've made points showing that they are not.
You're a real stickler Slapshot. I'd hate to work for you haha. JK. Yeah they delayed NDA drop by ~2 months recently. The story was that in the previous Alpha preview they ran into unforeseen net code problems. That certainly wasn't news I wanted to hear. And the thought did hit me, oh boy here we go with this shit again.
But whats your point. That's game development. New dates were set. They're not ridiculous Amazon New World dates, "sorry we were a little off, pushing release back a year." It's 2 months. Could it happen again? Yeah.
But that wasn't the point of what this thread was really talking about. The main context of this thread was if they're trying to fleece people out of their money. I've made points showing that they are not.
Actually they already pushed release back years. Original release was supposed to be 2018. By my count this is the 3rd delay?
I have no idea if they are "fleecing" people. What I know is that the guy claimed he didn't need any money and could self-fund the game.
What has happened since then is a 4+ year delay (2022 best case now), millions raised by selling pixel art, Beta, Alpha, Beta phases, Alpha phases, Pre- Alpha phases, stuff for a Battle Royale game which appeared from nowhere)
All I know is, that is a lot of stuff to sell and a lot of money raised for someone who claimed not to need it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The battle royale was free to play. I think we agree on some things and disagree on others. I'm not sure I'm completely following your point anymore though.
I generally approve of selling access to alpha/beta. I generally disapprove of selling cosmetics. I generally disapprove of the state of gaming in 2021. And 2020, and 2019, and maybe beyond.
If your point is that you want companies to operate the way you would operate them then I'm not sure what to tell you.
Even though I don't like the selling of cosmetics, I'm not fanatically opposed to it. Just kinda don't like it. Doesn't really hurt me or affect me. A fully funded game selling cosmetics doesn't bother me in itself because companies exist to make money. They're making money. Sue them? I dunno. If they don't follow through with a viable product, they might very well get sued.
The battle royale was free to play. I think we agree on some things and disagree on others. I'm not sure I'm completely following your point anymore though.
I generally approve of selling access to alpha/beta. I generally disapprove of selling cosmetics. I generally disapprove of the state of gaming in 2021. And 2020, and 2019, and maybe beyond.
If your point is that you want companies to operate the way you would operate them then I'm not sure what to tell you.
Even though I don't like the selling of cosmetics, I'm not fanatically opposed to it. Just kinda don't like it. Doesn't really hurt me or affect me. A fully funded game selling cosmetics doesn't bother me in itself because companies exist to make money. They're making money. Sue them? I dunno. If they don't follow through with a viable product, they might very well get sued.
The BR game sold cosmetics and I believe some of them even tied into the main game. And it was made with resources that were diverted from the main game, which people paid for and is 4+ years behind schedule.
I simply expect companies to do what they say they will do. If you say you have enough money to self fund, then why sell millions of dollars in pixel art for a game that does not yet exist? I see this just the way I would if a regular MMORPG company was doing it. Say, Zenimax was releasing a new MMO. They start selling pre-orders. They start selling Beta testing, Alpha Testing, Alpha Phases, Pre- Alpha Phases... cosmetics for the game that doesn't exist (years and years in advance)... They would likely get torn a new rear-end. Well, if Stephen actually does not need the money then he falls right into that same category. If he DOES need the money then his entire campaign was built on an untruth.
Also, if you take money from people and say they will get a game in 2018, and it's now 2021 and you still have an NDA up and are in some bizarro pre-alpha phase 1... I do not see that as a good thing.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Yeah the BR did sell cosmetics and some that will be used in the main game. I'm with you now. I don't like that. Cosmetics are fluff, not necessary in the slightest. The one justification Steven has given is that the models of those cosmetic assets will be used on npcs and whatnot, so they're actually going to development too. So that's good.
But cosmetics to me are a joke. And selling them is capitalizing on people's ignorance. Think about Fortnite, the billions and billions they've made selling skins. They wouldn't have made anywhere near as much if it was just a box price for the game and that's it. And then you EARN your skins through achievements in game. The good ol days, how it used to be. Now the same kids who would scoff at a 60 dollar box price for Fortnite will spend hundreds if not thousands on skins. Epic hit a bunch of ignorant kids with the ol okey doke. But it's legal, as it should be. What are ya gonna do. That's the market in 2021.
But in your example of a new Bethesda mmo selling alpha/beta access I disagree. I'd be fine with that, kinda. Because I don't see a realistic alternative in the 2021 market. You can't just let anyone and everyone test your game. You don't have the capacity for that. So...what, a lottery system? First come first serve system? How do you weed out NDA breakers? How do you know you're not just getting a bunch of flakes? By selling alpha/beta access, like I said before you get dedicated, invested(literally), serious testers. And you make money for further development. It's a win/win for the company. I guess a mixed bag for the consumer in general. Definitely a loss for people that want free shit. But unless someone has a better idea, it's fine with me.
Back in the day, I guess game companies hired testers? Can you imagine if that was the case across the board now? So now not only do these testers have an advantage in experience when the game comes out, but they got PAID TO DO IT? The uproar would be epic.
Y But in your example of a new Bethesda mmo selling alpha/beta access I disagree. I'd be fine with that, kinda. Because I don't see a realistic alternative in the 2021 market. You can't just let anyone and everyone test your game. You don't have the capacity for that. So...what, a lottery system? First come first serve system? How do you weed out NDA breakers? How do you know you're not just getting a bunch of flakes? By selling alpha/beta access, like I said before you get dedicated, invested(literally), serious testers. And you make money for further development. It's a win/win for the company. I guess a mixed bag for the consumer in general. Definitely a loss for people that want free shit. But unless someone has a better idea, it's fine with me.
Back in the day, I guess game companies hired testers? Can you imagine if that was the case across the board now? So now not only do these testers have an advantage in experience when the game comes out, but they got PAID TO DO IT? The uproar would be epic.
Game companies had a small group of internal testers but the vast majority of it was done through volunteers. You would apply and they would admit however many they needed.
Selling access does not give you any more dedicated or serious testers. I have seen it with my own eyes. Does it raise money? yes, but that money comes with strings as now expectations are set/raised. I mean, they literally took a thousand dollars from some people and haven't provided them with anything tangible for 4 years.
The reasoning used to be that they needed the money to raise the game, so please give it to us so we can make your dreams come true. But if a company does NOT need that money and are selling pixel art years in advance, then they would and should get crucified.
So to get back to the thread at hand, we have a game that is 4+ years behind schedule, still under NDA, whos owner claims not to need the money but keeps selling stuff that will be delivered someday in the future... and mark my word they WILL happily sell their Alpha access very soon.
It's par for the course today, but please do not go down the road of describing Stephen as "a company here that is for the most part trying to do the right thing with it's development process, in a sea of wrong from nearly every other company"
His tactics are at least as bad as his peers. The results... well.. we shall see. Some day. Maybe even in May.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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I'm getting mixed signals about the game....... So is this a full loot PvP Open world game? When I first heard about the game I thought it was more of a PvE game? Has things changed? If it is a PvP game, is it consent PvP?
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
I'd rather the pay in system than the volunteer system. Volunteer system is essentially lottery or first come first serve. You either get lucky and get selected or you don't. You either know about the game and have applied right at the start of the selection process, or you're screwed. I'd much rather have the option to buy in at a REASONABLE price. Not a price only for rich people. I think the prices could come down some. Full disclosure, I had to budget some in order to buy my Alpha 2 access. But I wasn't just screwed because of a lottery or FCFS system. I could look at my finances and say ok I'm gonna save some money here, not gonna buy this thing, and I'm gonna buy alpha 2 access because I WANT TO.
As far as dedicated and serious testers. Of course volunteers and random people can be very dedicated and outstanding testers. They were the testers for many games in the past and many current games still.
But just to cut to the chase, were talking about two different groups here. Group Buy In and Group Volunteer. The statistical odds of two things or parameters being exactly equal are virtually impossible. So one of those groups is going to be better than the other, even if only slightly, but could be more than just slightly too, neither here nor there. Ones gonna be better than the other. I know which I'm putting my money on. I'd much rather have people that have bought in testing my game than volunteers. For common sense reasons.
And I will absolutely continue going down that road until Steven gives me a reason not to. The delay is concerning, the BR thing was concerning but I wasn't a heavy follower of the game at the time. The explanation I've seen was that it was a testing environment for action combat and net code, and that the assets created and used in it are being used for the main game. So maybe that's true 50%, maybe 100% true, maybe 0%. I don't know, cant read minds. But the explanation makes some sense. It was a little off putting, can't lie. But I'm seeing progress every live stream. Way more than any other mmo I know of in development is putting out.
And again, if it was on an equal level of scamminess as other crowd funded mmo's we wouldn't have been told an NDA drop date months in advance. NDA drop dates are a huge sign saying HEY DONT BUY INTO OUR GAME YOURE ABOUT TO SEE EVERYTHING REALLY SOON ANYWAY. Or the fact that they stopped selling new skins during covid for months. Those are real, concrete actions that mean something, much different from how scam mmos operate.
But who knows, maybe it's all reverse psychology and thats how they get ya. And I'm gotten. Illuminati and Giorgio from Ancient Aliens, oh my
Devs trying to create importance on boring content by forcing players to unlock stuff is so old and outdated that i am not the least interested in that crap anymore.
The one area i agreed with in the past was questing being tied to something of somewhat importance like fame.However we can do much better and should be. I am not the least interested in running pointless content just because it is there or i need to unlock something. Open persistant world with interaction,ECO systems that bring the world to better realism and deep crafting,taming,building etc etc.
The node idea is also not very interesting,it COULD have been if done better but sadly implementation of ideas is not dev studios strong point. You get me interested and keep me interested with an engaging world and lots to discover.
Instead of a NODE i want areas to be built up by players because they want to build there and not because they NEED to build up a node.If i can make it very simple,i want games to appear to be real worlds and not appearing to be computer code.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I'm getting mixed signals about the game....... So is this a full loot PvP Open world game? When I first heard about the game I thought it was more of a PvE game? Has things changed? If it is a PvP game, is it consent PvP?
It is open world pvp but not full loot. It's partial loot. You will drop a portion of harvesting materials and mob loot you're carrying when you die. If you have none, you drop nothing. You will not lose gear when you die. There will be a corruption system in place to discourage outright ganking and griefing with penalties including gear drop if a "corrupted"(red) player is killed. There's a ton more to the system I'm not going to type out here. But it's all on the wiki. If pvp is not your cup of tea at all then it may not be the game for you. But there will be plenty of pve as well.
Devs trying to create importance on boring content by forcing players to unlock stuff is so old and outdated that i am not the least interested in that crap anymore.
The one area i agreed with in the past was questing being tied to something of somewhat importance like fame.However we can do much better and should be. I am not the least interested in running pointless content just because it is there or i need to unlock something. Open persistant world with interaction,ECO systems that bring the world to better realism and deep crafting,taming,building etc etc.
The node idea is also not very interesting,it COULD have been if done better but sadly implementation of ideas is not dev studios strong point. You get me interested and keep me interested with an engaging world and lots to discover.
Instead of a NODE i want areas to be built up by players because they want to build there and not because they NEED to build up a node.If i can make it very simple,i want games to appear to be real worlds and not appearing to be computer code.
I dunno if you realize this or not, but what you're describing...Ashes of Creation is the closest thing you're gonna get to it. AOC is trying to do exactly that - the appearance of a real world.
Players wont build up a node because they need to. There will be 103 nodes. Players will pick the nodes they want to build up for various reasons. Sea access, nearby resources, local defensiveness etc. Players will build their own freeholds within that node if they become citizens of that node. Freeholds are your little plot of land with a house and whatever other profession building you want on it. They won't be instanced, they'll be in the open world, within that nodes zone of influence.
The node itself though gets leveled up through an experience system. The more players killing mobs and completing quests in that node, the faster it levels. Individual nodes will have to pick from a variety of different buildings to add to the city, such as do we want a blacksmith building, or a lumber mill. Extra guards, or stronger walls? There will be choices like that. But no there won't be a freewheeling 100% player agency node/city building mechanic. It'd be hard to pull that off in a pvp game and make it fun long term. Lots of griefing/trolly behavior that can cause.
Node locations will be predetermined to balance their power in relation to each other, to make them all viable economically and militarily. But the players will determine which nodes to level up, and how far to level them.
Comments
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I was referring more so to that if a company puts something up for sale and you just want it for free because "cuz", that is overprivileged compared to someone willing to pay for it.
So, did they show full progress on fully working nodes? The biggest keystone feature of the game.
Furtherfurthermore, AOC paused cosmetic sales for months during covid. They had been putting out a new cosmetic pack monthly, and at the height of covid they paused sales of new cosmetics for MONTHS because of financial hardship people were having around the world.
I'm really not trying to white knight here, but my god, there's a company here that is for the most part trying to do the right thing with it's development process, in a sea of wrong from nearly every other company...and it's like, I dunno. Two different realities going on for people or something.
Two different realities sure is right...
Lets see when they magically open the store and start to sell Alpha test access again. They sell million of dollars of pixel art and stuff which is amazing for a game that the owner said was fully funded (yet never actually backed that up with numbers).
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But yeah in one of their live streams they set it up to where a node only needed 1 more mob killed worth of experience in order for it to level up. They killed the mob on stream and the area instantly turned into like a little mini village with npcs and stuff.
But whats your point. That's game development. New dates were set. They're not ridiculous Amazon New World dates, "sorry we were a little off, pushing release back a year." It's 2 months. Could it happen again? Yeah.
But that wasn't the point of what this thread was really talking about. The main context of this thread was if they're trying to fleece people out of their money. I've made points showing that they are not.
I have no idea if they are "fleecing" people. What I know is that the guy claimed he didn't need any money and could self-fund the game.
What has happened since then is a 4+ year delay (2022 best case now), millions raised by selling pixel art, Beta, Alpha, Beta phases, Alpha phases, Pre- Alpha phases, stuff for a Battle Royale game which appeared from nowhere)
All I know is, that is a lot of stuff to sell and a lot of money raised for someone who claimed not to need it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I generally approve of selling access to alpha/beta. I generally disapprove of selling cosmetics. I generally disapprove of the state of gaming in 2021. And 2020, and 2019, and maybe beyond.
If your point is that you want companies to operate the way you would operate them then I'm not sure what to tell you.
Even though I don't like the selling of cosmetics, I'm not fanatically opposed to it. Just kinda don't like it. Doesn't really hurt me or affect me. A fully funded game selling cosmetics doesn't bother me in itself because companies exist to make money. They're making money. Sue them? I dunno. If they don't follow through with a viable product, they might very well get sued.
I simply expect companies to do what they say they will do. If you say you have enough money to self fund, then why sell millions of dollars in pixel art for a game that does not yet exist? I see this just the way I would if a regular MMORPG company was doing it. Say, Zenimax was releasing a new MMO. They start selling pre-orders. They start selling Beta testing, Alpha Testing, Alpha Phases, Pre- Alpha Phases... cosmetics for the game that doesn't exist (years and years in advance)... They would likely get torn a new rear-end. Well, if Stephen actually does not need the money then he falls right into that same category. If he DOES need the money then his entire campaign was built on an untruth.
Also, if you take money from people and say they will get a game in 2018, and it's now 2021 and you still have an NDA up and are in some bizarro pre-alpha phase 1... I do not see that as a good thing.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But cosmetics to me are a joke. And selling them is capitalizing on people's ignorance. Think about Fortnite, the billions and billions they've made selling skins. They wouldn't have made anywhere near as much if it was just a box price for the game and that's it. And then you EARN your skins through achievements in game. The good ol days, how it used to be. Now the same kids who would scoff at a 60 dollar box price for Fortnite will spend hundreds if not thousands on skins. Epic hit a bunch of ignorant kids with the ol okey doke. But it's legal, as it should be. What are ya gonna do. That's the market in 2021.
But in your example of a new Bethesda mmo selling alpha/beta access I disagree. I'd be fine with that, kinda. Because I don't see a realistic alternative in the 2021 market. You can't just let anyone and everyone test your game. You don't have the capacity for that. So...what, a lottery system? First come first serve system? How do you weed out NDA breakers? How do you know you're not just getting a bunch of flakes? By selling alpha/beta access, like I said before you get dedicated, invested(literally), serious testers. And you make money for further development. It's a win/win for the company. I guess a mixed bag for the consumer in general. Definitely a loss for people that want free shit. But unless someone has a better idea, it's fine with me.
Back in the day, I guess game companies hired testers? Can you imagine if that was the case across the board now? So now not only do these testers have an advantage in experience when the game comes out, but they got PAID TO DO IT? The uproar would be epic.
Selling access does not give you any more dedicated or serious testers. I have seen it with my own eyes. Does it raise money? yes, but that money comes with strings as now expectations are set/raised. I mean, they literally took a thousand dollars from some people and haven't provided them with anything tangible for 4 years.
The reasoning used to be that they needed the money to raise the game, so please give it to us so we can make your dreams come true. But if a company does NOT need that money and are selling pixel art years in advance, then they would and should get crucified.
So to get back to the thread at hand, we have a game that is 4+ years behind schedule, still under NDA, whos owner claims not to need the money but keeps selling stuff that will be delivered someday in the future... and mark my word they WILL happily sell their Alpha access very soon.
It's par for the course today, but please do not go down the road of describing Stephen as "a company here that is for the most part trying to do the right thing with it's development process, in a sea of wrong from nearly every other company"
His tactics are at least as bad as his peers. The results... well.. we shall see. Some day. Maybe even in May.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
As far as dedicated and serious testers. Of course volunteers and random people can be very dedicated and outstanding testers. They were the testers for many games in the past and many current games still.
But just to cut to the chase, were talking about two different groups here. Group Buy In and Group Volunteer. The statistical odds of two things or parameters being exactly equal are virtually impossible. So one of those groups is going to be better than the other, even if only slightly, but could be more than just slightly too, neither here nor there. Ones gonna be better than the other. I know which I'm putting my money on. I'd much rather have people that have bought in testing my game than volunteers. For common sense reasons.
And I will absolutely continue going down that road until Steven gives me a reason not to. The delay is concerning, the BR thing was concerning but I wasn't a heavy follower of the game at the time. The explanation I've seen was that it was a testing environment for action combat and net code, and that the assets created and used in it are being used for the main game. So maybe that's true 50%, maybe 100% true, maybe 0%. I don't know, cant read minds. But the explanation makes some sense. It was a little off putting, can't lie. But I'm seeing progress every live stream. Way more than any other mmo I know of in development is putting out.
And again, if it was on an equal level of scamminess as other crowd funded mmo's we wouldn't have been told an NDA drop date months in advance. NDA drop dates are a huge sign saying HEY DONT BUY INTO OUR GAME YOURE ABOUT TO SEE EVERYTHING REALLY SOON ANYWAY. Or the fact that they stopped selling new skins during covid for months. Those are real, concrete actions that mean something, much different from how scam mmos operate.
But who knows, maybe it's all reverse psychology and thats how they get ya. And I'm gotten. Illuminati and Giorgio from Ancient Aliens, oh my
Devs trying to create importance on boring content by forcing players to unlock stuff is so old and outdated that i am not the least interested in that crap anymore.
The one area i agreed with in the past was questing being tied to something of somewhat importance like fame.However we can do much better and should be.
I am not the least interested in running pointless content just because it is there or i need to unlock something.
Open persistant world with interaction,ECO systems that bring the world to better realism and deep crafting,taming,building etc etc.
The node idea is also not very interesting,it COULD have been if done better but sadly implementation of ideas is not dev studios strong point.
You get me interested and keep me interested with an engaging world and lots to discover.
Instead of a NODE i want areas to be built up by players because they want to build there and not because they NEED to build up a node.If i can make it very simple,i want games to appear to be real worlds and not appearing to be computer code.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Players wont build up a node because they need to. There will be 103 nodes. Players will pick the nodes they want to build up for various reasons. Sea access, nearby resources, local defensiveness etc. Players will build their own freeholds within that node if they become citizens of that node. Freeholds are your little plot of land with a house and whatever other profession building you want on it. They won't be instanced, they'll be in the open world, within that nodes zone of influence.
The node itself though gets leveled up through an experience system. The more players killing mobs and completing quests in that node, the faster it levels. Individual nodes will have to pick from a variety of different buildings to add to the city, such as do we want a blacksmith building, or a lumber mill. Extra guards, or stronger walls? There will be choices like that. But no there won't be a freewheeling 100% player agency node/city building mechanic. It'd be hard to pull that off in a pvp game and make it fun long term. Lots of griefing/trolly behavior that can cause.
Node locations will be predetermined to balance their power in relation to each other, to make them all viable economically and militarily. But the players will determine which nodes to level up, and how far to level them.