"High end competitive raiding with completion time leaderboards, world
firsts and all of that came later as a gimmick to retain those who had
seen it all and done it all and keep them subbed."
It has worked wonders in EQ for about the past 20 years...i have to believe a huge % of their income is raiding guilds and not casual players.....Did they not have a core audience in mind when they were making Pantheon?
The perspective is from observation and playing tlp, emus a lot over the years. The p99 purists are very vocal, but they do not represent "most people".
About PoP era, I am aware of the years of expansions.. and if we consider PoP era to include LDoN we are talking 2004, if we include GoD that only the super elite could play which left the rest in PoP era.. Well 2005 may be pushing it a bit but still
The decline of EQ's playerbase has been discussed to death repeatedly. For someone to have such a skewed perspective on it seems quite odd. LDoN released in 2001, where are you getting 2004? (don't go on the Pantheon forum, you will be eaten alive giving incorrect dates and facts about EQ). I do find it funny that you refer to P99 players as purists.
When people remember EQ fondly they generally are not talking about what it has become. Like many games, it has been completely "wow-ified" (and has been that way for a long time). If you didn't start playing until 2005 then EQ had already been declining from when it was "popular" for years by the time you started. There had already been a mass exodus away from EQ that started shortly after PoP (that released in 2002).
By 2005 there had been a shift in the mmorpg genre as a whole where every game was dumbed-down because wow made so much money. The genre was full of copycats.
It is only now that we see a few games trying to go back to that 1st gen mmo model /playstyle that has been absent in the genre for so long.
This has been discussed to death and you didn't experience the game during the time being discussed so that is why your perspective is so skewed. You aren't the first. I have tried to go back and play it multiple times over the years. What it has become is a reflection on the genre as a whole.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The designers of the game know what they want the game to be and need to make the call. I wouldn't do both. Decide which community your going to cater to and do it. Trying to please both, you really end up pleasing no one in the long run.
If your looking for a lot of bodies that only stick around until they have achieved their goals then move on, until new content drops then go with casual. If your looking for a smaller community of gamers, but are more likely to be there longer (provided they like your grind) then go the competitive route. I know there are exceptions, but in general this is what i have seen.
For me personally, I don't care since I have no desire to play the game.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
This reminds me of my cousin's son. He was just over two and loves cars. The matchbox cars he has like 3 plastic crates of them and he can just glance at it and tell you the name in a second and that goes for the cars on the roads too when we are travelling around Kuala Lumpur. The last time we went to Malaysia before this damn outbreak prevented our yearly trips to visit my family we got him some iron on stickers of cars.
His mother put it on a t-shirt and made the monumental mistake of asking where the next one could be placed. It occurred to my once removed nephew that the stickers could be placed elsewhere. Then the argument started that he wanted the one on the t-shirt to be removed and placed on his pants or on the back of the t-shirt and he kept tearing at it to remove it. He had crying jag that lasted an hour.
Don't ask for trouble if you don't intend to add something don't ask. The crying jag from the forums will be monumental.
Maybe next week they can ask us if Pantheon should be Tab target or twitch combat. And the week after they can ask if it should have classes or be classless...
Then in a few months we can tackle the hard stuff like should it be Fantasy based or Sci fi or even a Western... (I hear Vikings are hot today...)
Don't forget the question on whether they should cancel the game or finish it...
Rule number one is not to ever ask an either or question if you can’t accept both answers.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
By "competitive" I assume they mean what people like to call "hardcore raiding". Endgame content which requires large numbers of people and lengthy time commitments. Logging in at any hour of the day to race other guilds to kill a boss and all that crap and drama.
I believe that that is what they intend to do with the game anyway (assuming they ever actually produce a finished game) and that is why I have no interest in playing Pantheon. So, obviously, I am in the more casual camp.
However, I also believe that single group (I think they are planning on a group size of six) content can be quite challenging provided players can't overwhelm it with a zerg. Of course people on the other side of the fence would say that managing large numbers of people is the challenge. Well whatever, in the end the real question is; what do people want to do, what are they willing to do, what do they enjoy doing, and how many people can you retain with different types of game design?
I firmly believe that those who want hardcore raiding are a tiny subset of MMORPG players and that any devs who create a game which caters to them to the exclusion of others are basically building a self-destruct mechanism into their game.
That stuff worked a lot better in the past when people were still new to all of this-----but now? Now even a lot of people who did that stuff in the past won't want to mess with it anymore. It just isn't fun and it isn't worth putting up with all the crap just to get some shiny upgrades. The lure of the shiny pixels simple doesn't have as much power over people anymore and if they don't actually enjoy what they have to do to get the upgrades they are going feel like---"what's the point?"
The real problem for the Pantheon devs is that you can't have it both ways. It's a game that's all about character progression. If they stop progression for small group play then the people who don't want to do big raids are going to just start dropping out of the game after a while, assuming they ever start playing in the first place. On the other hand if they provide ongoing progression in single group content the big raid crowd will be pissed off and unhappy.
So they really do have to pick one or the other. I'm absolutely positive I know which demographic they have already chosen and so I have no intentions of ever playing the game (again, assuming they ever do release a complete and playable game at all).
If they plan to be like wow in any way they will fail hard.
I'm a heroic raider now, probably move to mythic at some point at the rate things are moving, and i f'ing love it, all becasue i'm playing with the right people.
That said i so miss long haul dungeon crawls, none of the modern games capture that magic anymore everything has to be bite size content.
I spent well over 12 hours in some raids in EQ2, that's hardcore, and that was the only way to complete top tier content, but yeah there is just no way i could do that again, so dilemma.
Mega dungeons are coming and a bit of a return of dungeon crawling, kinda as, well, first in golden era of mmorpgs no one could get super f'ing OP as you digested content, and the word crawl had meaning as in you crawled, you and your group would crawl through, take down a hall, then buff, eat, get ready for turning the corner.
That's where they need to hit the sweet spot, but how, i'd say most players are not willing to spend 12 hours in a run, and the best part there you had a high chance to fail and have to try, try, try again. I'm thinking some sort of progression skips would be the way to go but please still crawl at the end. Nothing better than being deep in a dungeon with high chance of failure, danger at every turn, and no turning back.
My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022
Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)
Obviously They are not actually asking that question; this was decided a long time ago. The reason it is brought up is because those who want the "other Everquest" still hope they will get that part of Everquest that they enjoy.
And if you haven't paid attention, they go for the casual over competetive.
There are basically two oldschool Everquest players, those who enjoy the casual and simpler early Everquest, and those who enjoy the much more advanced (and also somewhat competetive, though I would say comparative is more correct) that started with Luclin expansion (with Velious as the warmup). You could call them the project1999 crowd and the PoP era crowd if you like.
Surpricingly, considering it is the same game, these two "factions" value quite different things in the game, though also sharing some. From my perspective as a PoP era crowd, I think that the project1999 mentality is stuck and the game can not evolve from that mindset, while the PoP era was the only way the game could expand .. And it did so much, in every detail, complexity, tactical and everything, PoP(2005) is literally 100 times the game compared to classic Everquest as it was in 1999.
Why all the talk about Everquest? Because Pantheon is born from the project1999 mindset and most of the concepts are taken from early Everquest. Its backers are the project1999 crowd, and maybe some PoP era who still hope that they will get some of their Everquest (who are the sources of such discussions)..they won't get what they hope for.
This is quite a different perspective from most people. Also PoP released in 2002...not 2005. (that is a huge difference as far as mmorpg history is concerned)
The perspective is from observation and playing tlp, emus a lot over the years. The p99 purists are very vocal, but they do not represent "most people".
About PoP era, I am aware of the years of expansions.. and if we consider PoP era to include LDoN we are talking 2004, if we include GoD that only the super elite could play which left the rest in PoP era.. Well 2005 may be pushing it a bit but still
For me, as a hardcore gamer with a casual playstyle (hates raiding and grinding for the sake of busywork) EQ became unbearable once they released Gates of Discord with the exception of the Serpent's Spine expansion, because it included regular zones that didn't need raid gear just to level. I preferred the original EQ, because it was focused on group / solo content and mobs didn't have raid level stat inflation and desirable loot was scattered around the world instead of being funneled into raid zones. Gamers actually wanted to adventure outside of the Plane of Knowledge instead of just milling around waiting for a raid group. I liked a lot of the quality of life improvements of later expansions, but they came at a terrible cost.
Obviously They are not actually asking that question; this was decided a long time ago. The reason it is brought up is because those who want the "other Everquest" still hope they will get that part of Everquest that they enjoy.
And if you haven't paid attention, they go for the casual over competetive.
There are basically two oldschool Everquest players, those who enjoy the casual and simpler early Everquest, and those who enjoy the much more advanced (and also somewhat competetive, though I would say comparative is more correct) that started with Luclin expansion (with Velious as the warmup). You could call them the project1999 crowd and the PoP era crowd if you like.
Surpricingly, considering it is the same game, these two "factions" value quite different things in the game, though also sharing some. From my perspective as a PoP era crowd, I think that the project1999 mentality is stuck and the game can not evolve from that mindset, while the PoP era was the only way the game could expand .. And it did so much, in every detail, complexity, tactical and everything, PoP(2005) is literally 100 times the game compared to classic Everquest as it was in 1999.
Why all the talk about Everquest? Because Pantheon is born from the project1999 mindset and most of the concepts are taken from early Everquest. Its backers are the project1999 crowd, and maybe some PoP era who still hope that they will get some of their Everquest (who are the sources of such discussions)..they won't get what they hope for.
This is quite a different perspective from most people. Also PoP released in 2002...not 2005. (that is a huge difference as far as mmorpg history is concerned)
The perspective is from observation and playing tlp, emus a lot over the years. The p99 purists are very vocal, but they do not represent "most people".
About PoP era, I am aware of the years of expansions.. and if we consider PoP era to include LDoN we are talking 2004, if we include GoD that only the super elite could play which left the rest in PoP era.. Well 2005 may be pushing it a bit but still
For me, as a hardcore gamer with a casual playstyle (hates raiding and grinding for the sake of busywork) EQ became unbearable once they released Gates of Discord with the exception of the Serpent's Spine expansion, because it included regular zones that didn't need raid gear just to level. I preferred the original EQ, because it was focused on group / solo content and mobs didn't have raid level stat inflation and desirable loot was scattered around the world instead of being funneled into raid zones. Gamers actually wanted to adventure outside of the Plane of Knowledge instead of just milling around waiting for a raid group. I liked a lot of the quality of life improvements of later expansions, but they came at a terrible cost.
Yup I can agree with that, not a lot of great things happened after the PoP era (a few exceptions apply). However, it was not the improvements that drove the downfall, it was the content philosophy change and some really bad features (solo instancing, mercenaries , alt points systems, to mention a few). But this did not happen till after the PoP era (and by PoP era I refer to Luclin to GoD). Almost all of the advanced combat evolved during that era, not to mention non game breakin QoL, AA (the single most important system in EQ), and the lisy goes on.
You really shouldn't talk about EQ because you didn't play it until it was dumbed down after its prime. That's not the game people reference when they talk about first gen mmo EQ. Your posts come off as uninformed to anyone that was actually heavily involved at the time.
The pop era lol? you are calling that Luclin to GoD as the pop era, what? You didn't play until 2005...those 3 expansions came out 2001,2002,2004...
Just someone talking out their ass because they didn't actually experience it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Nothing better than being deep in a dungeon with high chance of failure, danger at every turn, and no turning back.
I can think of far more fun and interesting things to do in both life and in gaming.
Just saying.
hmmm as far as gaming, I'm with him.
As I've said before, if I had an mmorpg that had dungeon crawls like Dragon's Dogma's Bitterblack Isle, I would never need to play another mmorpg again.
Well, unless it was an Elder Scrolls mmorpg that played like the single player games.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Obviously They are not actually asking that question; this was decided a long time ago. The reason it is brought up is because those who want the "other Everquest" still hope they will get that part of Everquest that they enjoy.
And if you haven't paid attention, they go for the casual over competetive.
There are basically two oldschool Everquest players, those who enjoy the casual and simpler early Everquest, and those who enjoy the much more advanced (and also somewhat competetive, though I would say comparative is more correct) that started with Luclin expansion (with Velious as the warmup). You could call them the project1999 crowd and the PoP era crowd if you like.
Surpricingly, considering it is the same game, these two "factions" value quite different things in the game, though also sharing some. From my perspective as a PoP era crowd, I think that the project1999 mentality is stuck and the game can not evolve from that mindset, while the PoP era was the only way the game could expand .. And it did so much, in every detail, complexity, tactical and everything, PoP(2005) is literally 100 times the game compared to classic Everquest as it was in 1999.
Why all the talk about Everquest? Because Pantheon is born from the project1999 mindset and most of the concepts are taken from early Everquest. Its backers are the project1999 crowd, and maybe some PoP era who still hope that they will get some of their Everquest (who are the sources of such discussions)..they won't get what they hope for.
This is quite a different perspective from most people. Also PoP released in 2002...not 2005. (that is a huge difference as far as mmorpg history is concerned)
The perspective is from observation and playing tlp, emus a lot over the years. The p99 purists are very vocal, but they do not represent "most people".
About PoP era, I am aware of the years of expansions.. and if we consider PoP era to include LDoN we are talking 2004, if we include GoD that only the super elite could play which left the rest in PoP era.. Well 2005 may be pushing it a bit but still
For me, as a hardcore gamer with a casual playstyle (hates raiding and grinding for the sake of busywork) EQ became unbearable once they released Gates of Discord with the exception of the Serpent's Spine expansion, because it included regular zones that didn't need raid gear just to level. I preferred the original EQ, because it was focused on group / solo content and mobs didn't have raid level stat inflation and desirable loot was scattered around the world instead of being funneled into raid zones. Gamers actually wanted to adventure outside of the Plane of Knowledge instead of just milling around waiting for a raid group. I liked a lot of the quality of life improvements of later expansions, but they came at a terrible cost.
Yup I can agree with that, not a lot of great things happened after the PoP era (a few exceptions apply). However, it was not the improvements that drove the downfall, it was the content philosophy change and some really bad features (solo instancing, mercenaries , alt points systems, to mention a few). But this did not happen till after the PoP era (and by PoP era I refer to Luclin to GoD). Almost all of the advanced combat evolved during that era, not to mention non game breakin QoL, AA (the single most important system in EQ), and the lisy goes on.
Mostly, I agree. But a lot of good did come to EQ1 post-PoP, specifically Legacy of Ykesha and Lost Dungeons of Norrath. Both were very friendly towards casual and groups, even to the point that the LDoN raids were very bad (and quickly got a bad reputation from the bleeding edge guilds to the point where more casual friendly didn't even attempt them). Gates of Discord was designed as a sequel to Omens of War, but was finished and released first. GoD earned it's bad reputation as being hostile to anyone who wasn't geared from PoP raids, although a long stint in OoW could rectify that somewhat. OoW and the Serpent's Spine were about the last of the expansions that really didn't require substantial gear improvements.
The gear gap is/was a major differentiation in EQ1. Dragons of Norrath introduced alternate currencies (based on a similar mechanism in LDoN) where the undergeared characters (read: casuals) could do missions, save up their alternate currencies and purchase gear to bridge that gap. It really didn't work, as the rewards for currencies and the price of items mandated hundreds of repetitions.
Defiant gear was introduced to soothe this problem. It didn't really. A tank in full defiant gear will have a very tough time in GoD and DoN content, as those were the first major jumps in mobs HP/difficulty. Mercs helped the situation somewhat, as mercenary tanks could (and would) outperform the average casual tanks in terms of HPs, damage taken (and avoided) and AC. Healer mercenaries could heal quicker and more reliably than most human controlled players.
Ultimately The Auto-Grant feature allowed the All Access player to catch up with hundreds (and thousands) of AA abilities to improve combat survivability, although not as much as raid gear from later expansions. All this really did was to heighten the difference between the paid member and the F2P member. Effectively, this keeps EQ from replenishing its member base by effectively putting a cap on how far F2P players can progress.
It's really an interesting study in mudflation, and how seemingly great systems and mechanics can (and do) impact a game.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I was highlighting a Community Members thread on our forums and since this topic is highly debated, I wanted to shine a light on it and hear what our community has to say. (I do this a lot!)
Our game Tenets and Development will not change based on one of my weekly engaging CM questions, they're intended to be thought provoking and fun to give our community a voice and hear what they have to say, even if it's on a taboo topic that others are scared to talk about.
I was highlighting a Community Members thread on our forums and since this topic is highly debated, I wanted to shine a light on it and hear what our community has to say. (I do this a lot!)
Our game Tenets and Development will not change based on one of my weekly engaging CM questions, they're intended to be thought provoking and fun to give our community a voice and hear what they have to say, even if it's on a taboo topic that others are scared to talk about.
We appreciate the publicity though, thank you
Starting/fostering/encouraging an argument about the very nature of the game you've spent 5-6 years building seems like a great thing to do.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
A bit of a misunderstanding here, this post on Twitter was to get community to talk, there are off topics often not related to the development of Pantheon Rise of the Fallen, this was taken from a conversation on the Forums, not the developers actually asking this question for their MMO.
A bit of a misunderstanding here, this post on Twitter was to get community to talk, there are off topics often not related to the development of Pantheon Rise of the Fallen, this was taken from a conversation on the Forums, not the developers actually asking this question for their MMO.
Umm here is the Tweet and you will note the phrasing was very specific to Pantheon and THIS game. Very much related to the development of Pantheon:
-------------------------- Sure the conversation STARTED with a rando player, but then the developer literally tweets "let us know your thoughts, should we cater to the competitive, the casual or a mix of both?"
Thus asking for input/debate on whether they SHOULD cater to competitive, casual or a mix of both.
They can ask you to talk about anything, but asking people to talk about whether they SHOULD cater to a different type of player than they spent the last 6 years attracting seems... well... not to be the smartest move.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I wonder if anyone realized this is the kind of question you ask when just starting to make the game.
Yeah guys we were just wondering what type of game to make and we need your feedback....lol. This kind of questions tells us they are sitting around doing nothing just waiting for our answer....
Oh you guys want casual,well we were on course to making a hardcore game,ok no problem we will just start all over again.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
A bit of a misunderstanding here, this post on Twitter was to get community to talk, there are off topics often not related to the development of Pantheon Rise of the Fallen, this was taken from a conversation on the Forums, not the developers actually asking this question for their MMO.
Umm here is the Tweet and you will note the phrasing was very specific to Pantheon and THIS game. Very much related to the development of Pantheon:
-------------------------- Sure the conversation STARTED with a rando player, but then the developer literally tweets "let us know your thoughts, should we cater to the competitive, the casual or a mix of both?"
Thus asking for input/debate on whether they SHOULD cater to competitive, casual or a mix of both.
They can ask you to talk about anything, but asking people to talk about whether they SHOULD cater to a different type of player than they spent the last 6 years attracting seems... well... not to be the smartest move.
You would think by now you guys would be better at recognizing when someone is ing, clearly Kislen is a member in good standing of we who live under the bridge.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A bit of a misunderstanding here, this post on Twitter was to get community to talk, there are off topics often not related to the development of Pantheon Rise of the Fallen, this was taken from a conversation on the Forums, not the developers actually asking this question for their MMO.
Umm here is the Tweet and you will note the phrasing was very specific to Pantheon and THIS game. Very much related to the development of Pantheon:
-------------------------- Sure the conversation STARTED with a rando player, but then the developer literally tweets "let us know your thoughts, should we cater to the competitive, the casual or a mix of both?"
Thus asking for input/debate on whether they SHOULD cater to competitive, casual or a mix of both.
They can ask you to talk about anything, but asking people to talk about whether they SHOULD cater to a different type of player than they spent the last 6 years attracting seems... well... not to be the smartest move.
You would think by now you guys would be better at recognizing when someone is ing, clearly Kislen is a member in good standing of we who live under the bridge.
Hahaha! I love having fun with our community, they know me well and if that means the odd harmless controversial or debatable topic then I like to get everyone's opinion and give them a platform to voice their thoughts!
Trollish/fun/trickster/sneaky - I am a Rogue after all
This is all done in good fun though, the community knows when I want serious feedback, I directly ask them, when it's scheduled CM content, we mess around with ideas, wordplay and topics like my "In One Word" "Scenario" or "Would You Rather" posts, they usually asked a very tough question and only allow you to reply in a certain way.
It allows people to be creative and have fun with otherwise, touchy subjects.
I encourage people less familiar with my posts to look back through Twitter/FB or the Official forums to check them out.
A bit of a misunderstanding here, this post on Twitter was to get community to talk, there are off topics often not related to the development of Pantheon Rise of the Fallen, this was taken from a conversation on the Forums, not the developers actually asking this question for their MMO.
Umm here is the Tweet and you will note the phrasing was very specific to Pantheon and THIS game. Very much related to the development of Pantheon:
-------------------------- Sure the conversation STARTED with a rando player, but then the developer literally tweets "let us know your thoughts, should we cater to the competitive, the casual or a mix of both?"
Thus asking for input/debate on whether they SHOULD cater to competitive, casual or a mix of both.
They can ask you to talk about anything, but asking people to talk about whether they SHOULD cater to a different type of player than they spent the last 6 years attracting seems... well... not to be the smartest move.
You would think by now you guys would be better at recognizing when someone is ing, clearly Kislen is a member in good standing of we who live under the bridge.
Hahaha! I love having fun with our community, they know me well and if that means the odd harmless controversial or debatable topic then I like to get everyone's opinion and give them a platform to voice their thoughts!
Trollish/fun/trickster/sneaky - I am a Rogue after all
This is all done in good fun though, the community knows when I want serious feedback, I directly ask them, when it's scheduled CM content, we mess around with ideas, wordplay and topics like my "In One Word" "Scenario" or "Would You Rather" posts, they usually asked a very tough question and only allow you to reply in a certain way.
It allows people to be creative and have fun with otherwise, touchy subjects.
I encourage people less familiar with my posts to look back through Twitter/FB or the Official forums to check them out.
So you thought it was a good idea to encourage arguing about whether you should change the focus of your game... simply stunning.
Its one thing to say “Should games cater to...”.
It’s quite another to say “Should WE cater to...”
If you want to start a taboo topic, I have an idea! ”Should we immediately drop NDA”? or One word to describe a development team that makes this announcement after 5 years work “to move from hardcoded, inflexible implementations to more robust and scalable solutions... We took this time to develop the actual foundation and pipelines that we were going to need to ship the game. Systems got torn out and reconstructed into a much more efficient and flexible format... “ or Use 2 words to describe a game that in June 2018 announced Alpha by end of year at Pax East... and hasn’t reached that state as of 2021
I mean, let’s have some fun with touchy subjects!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
The decline of EQ's playerbase has been discussed to death repeatedly. For someone to have such a skewed perspective on it seems quite odd. LDoN released in 2001, where are you getting 2004? (don't go on the Pantheon forum, you will be eaten alive giving incorrect dates and facts about EQ). I do find it funny that you refer to P99 players as purists.
When people remember EQ fondly they generally are not talking about what it has become. Like many games, it has been completely "wow-ified" (and has been that way for a long time). If you didn't start playing until 2005 then EQ had already been declining from when it was "popular" for years by the time you started. There had already been a mass exodus away from EQ that started shortly after PoP (that released in 2002).
By 2005 there had been a shift in the mmorpg genre as a whole where every game was dumbed-down because wow made so much money. The genre was full of copycats.
It is only now that we see a few games trying to go back to that 1st gen mmo model /playstyle that has been absent in the genre for so long.
This has been discussed to death and you didn't experience the game during the time being discussed so that is why your perspective is so skewed. You aren't the first. I have tried to go back and play it multiple times over the years. What it has become is a reflection on the genre as a whole.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If your looking for a lot of bodies that only stick around until they have achieved their goals then move on, until new content drops then go with casual. If your looking for a smaller community of gamers, but are more likely to be there longer (provided they like your grind) then go the competitive route. I know there are exceptions, but in general this is what i have seen.
For me personally, I don't care since I have no desire to play the game.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
His mother put it on a t-shirt and made the monumental mistake of asking where the next one could be placed. It occurred to my once removed nephew that the stickers could be placed elsewhere. Then the argument started that he wanted the one on the t-shirt to be removed and placed on his pants or on the back of the t-shirt and he kept tearing at it to remove it. He had crying jag that lasted an hour.
Don't ask for trouble if you don't intend to add something don't ask. The crying jag from the forums will be monumental.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I believe that that is what they intend to do with the game anyway (assuming they ever actually produce a finished game) and that is why I have no interest in playing Pantheon. So, obviously, I am in the more casual camp.
However, I also believe that single group (I think they are planning on a group size of six) content can be quite challenging provided players can't overwhelm it with a zerg. Of course people on the other side of the fence would say that managing large numbers of people is the challenge. Well whatever, in the end the real question is; what do people want to do, what are they willing to do, what do they enjoy doing, and how many people can you retain with different types of game design?
I firmly believe that those who want hardcore raiding are a tiny subset of MMORPG players and that any devs who create a game which caters to them to the exclusion of others are basically building a self-destruct mechanism into their game.
That stuff worked a lot better in the past when people were still new to all of this-----but now? Now even a lot of people who did that stuff in the past won't want to mess with it anymore. It just isn't fun and it isn't worth putting up with all the crap just to get some shiny upgrades. The lure of the shiny pixels simple doesn't have as much power over people anymore and if they don't actually enjoy what they have to do to get the upgrades they are going feel like---"what's the point?"
The real problem for the Pantheon devs is that you can't have it both ways. It's a game that's all about character progression. If they stop progression for small group play then the people who don't want to do big raids are going to just start dropping out of the game after a while, assuming they ever start playing in the first place. On the other hand if they provide ongoing progression in single group content the big raid crowd will be pissed off and unhappy.
So they really do have to pick one or the other. I'm absolutely positive I know which demographic they have already chosen and so I have no intentions of ever playing the game (again, assuming they ever do release a complete and playable game at all).
But this did not happen till after the PoP era (and by PoP era I refer to Luclin to GoD). Almost all of the advanced combat evolved during that era, not to mention non game breakin QoL, AA (the single most important system in EQ), and the lisy goes on.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
The pop era lol? you are calling that Luclin to GoD as the pop era, what? You didn't play until 2005...those 3 expansions came out 2001,2002,2004...
Just someone talking out their ass because they didn't actually experience it.
Just saying.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As I've said before, if I had an mmorpg that had dungeon crawls like Dragon's Dogma's Bitterblack Isle, I would never need to play another mmorpg again.
Well, unless it was an Elder Scrolls mmorpg that played like the single player games.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I was highlighting a Community Members thread on our forums and since this topic is highly debated, I wanted to shine a light on it and hear what our community has to say. (I do this a lot!)
Our game Tenets and Development will not change based on one of my weekly engaging CM questions, they're intended to be thought provoking and fun to give our community a voice and hear what they have to say, even if it's on a taboo topic that others are scared to talk about.
We appreciate the publicity though, thank you
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
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Sure the conversation STARTED with a rando player, but then the developer literally tweets "let us know your thoughts, should we cater to the competitive, the casual or a mix of both?"
Thus asking for input/debate on whether they SHOULD cater to competitive, casual or a mix of both.
They can ask you to talk about anything, but asking people to talk about whether they SHOULD cater to a different type of player than they spent the last 6 years attracting seems... well... not to be the smartest move.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Yeah guys we were just wondering what type of game to make and we need your feedback....lol.
This kind of questions tells us they are sitting around doing nothing just waiting for our answer....
Oh you guys want casual,well we were on course to making a hardcore game,ok no problem we will just start all over again.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Trollish/fun/trickster/sneaky - I am a Rogue after all
This is all done in good fun though, the community knows when I want serious feedback, I directly ask them, when it's scheduled CM content, we mess around with ideas, wordplay and topics like my "In One Word" "Scenario" or "Would You Rather" posts, they usually asked a very tough question and only allow you to reply in a certain way.
It allows people to be creative and have fun with otherwise, touchy subjects.
I encourage people less familiar with my posts to look back through Twitter/FB or the Official forums to check them out.
Its one thing to say “Should games cater to...”.
If you want to start a taboo topic, I have an idea!
”Should we immediately drop NDA”?
or
One word to describe a development team that makes this announcement after 5 years work “to move from hardcoded, inflexible implementations to more robust and scalable solutions... We took this time to develop the actual foundation and pipelines that we were going to need to ship the game. Systems got torn out and reconstructed into a much more efficient and flexible format... “
or
Use 2 words to describe a game that in June 2018 announced Alpha by end of year at Pax East... and hasn’t reached that state as of 2021
I mean, let’s have some fun with touchy subjects!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Hehe, maybe they should ask people on their forums, "How long do you think we can milk you suckers for contributions before you catch on to the scam?"
That would be a fun topic.