Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Warhammer and me

2»

Comments

  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 562
    Ungood said:
    I don't recall Fantasy ever being.. dark.
    Maybe you missed 2nd and 6th? 2nd was just some experimental bullshit(from what I hear) and 6th tried to insert a lot of 40k elements in the game. Again, fleshing out BOTH rules(from Herohammer lol) and lore...perfect, but grimdank wasn't called for.

    Perfect example that I always give are Bretonnia and Norsca. Bretonnia used to be a land of chivalry, of high adventures where EVERYONE could become the King, compare it to how it looks after its update in 7th. I did, I found a Codex from 4th or 5th, entire spirit is different. As for Norsca, oh idk, it used to have kingdoms, used to trade and act as mercs or sea wolves, it wasn't all CHAOS. Compare it to their latest state. Hell, even Chaos itself! Khorne, for example, wasn't a RAGING DEMON ON THE SKULL THRONE OF SKULLS!, he was simply a coalescence of a certain type of emotions and energy, even had a positive side(he himself, yes ; also some argue that Verena or Myrmidia and such might also be good versions of him).

    This(cramming everything incoherently together) simply had to play a major element in Fantasy's downfall or I'm a Gnome!
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,076
    edited March 23
    Gorwe said:
    Ungood said:
    I don't recall Fantasy ever being.. dark.
    Maybe you missed 2nd and 6th? 2nd was just some experimental bullshit(from what I hear) and 6th tried to insert a lot of 40k elements in the game. Again, fleshing out BOTH rules(from Herohammer lol) and lore...perfect, but grimdank wasn't called for.

    Perfect example that I always give are Bretonnia and Norsca. Bretonnia used to be a land of chivalry, of high adventures where EVERYONE could become the King, compare it to how it looks after its update in 7th. I did, I found a Codex from 4th or 5th, entire spirit is different. As for Norsca, oh idk, it used to have kingdoms, used to trade and act as mercs or sea wolves, it wasn't all CHAOS. Compare it to their latest state. Hell, even Chaos itself! Khorne, for example, wasn't a RAGING DEMON ON THE SKULL THRONE OF SKULLS!, he was simply a coalescence of a certain type of emotions and energy, even had a positive side(he himself, yes ; also some argue that Verena or Myrmidia and such might also be good versions of him).

    This(cramming everything incoherently together) simply had to play a major element in Fantasy's downfall or I'm a Gnome!
    Well what you are recognising here is that some elements of the setting were better in the past. I don't play Norsca as "all chaos" but Bretonnia though chivalrous is a land were peasants toil. What you are pointing out here sounds like a rewrite by someone who has an eye too much to the word "iconic". Pick what version you think best or look for a new IP, has anything else taken your fancy?
  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 562
    edited March 23
    Scot said:
    Gorwe said:
    Ungood said:
    I don't recall Fantasy ever being.. dark.
    Maybe you missed 2nd and 6th? 2nd was just some experimental bullshit(from what I hear) and 6th tried to insert a lot of 40k elements in the game. Again, fleshing out BOTH rules(from Herohammer lol) and lore...perfect, but grimdank wasn't called for.

    Perfect example that I always give are Bretonnia and Norsca. Bretonnia used to be a land of chivalry, of high adventures where EVERYONE could become the King, compare it to how it looks after its update in 7th. I did, I found a Codex from 4th or 5th, entire spirit is different. As for Norsca, oh idk, it used to have kingdoms, used to trade and act as mercs or sea wolves, it wasn't all CHAOS. Compare it to their latest state. Hell, even Chaos itself! Khorne, for example, wasn't a RAGING DEMON ON THE SKULL THRONE OF SKULLS!, he was simply a coalescence of a certain type of emotions and energy, even had a positive side(he himself, yes ; also some argue that Verena or Myrmidia and such might also be good versions of him).

    This(cramming everything incoherently together) simply had to play a major element in Fantasy's downfall or I'm a Gnome!
    Well what you are recognising here is that some elements of the setting were better in the past. I don't play Norsca as "all chaos" but Bretonnia though chivalrous is a land were peasants toil. What you are pointing out here sounds like a rewrite by someone who has an eye too much to the word "iconic". Pick what version you think best or look for a new IP, has anything else taken your fancy?
    Chaos should be an underlying building block for Norsca alongside local beliefs(imo), but people who are literally awash with the Winds of Chaos(North and somewhat West) shouldn't be in the same basket as the rest(East and, especially, South). Now, concerning Empire <-> Norsca relations, it's complicated. Norsii starved, so they raided the lands of Nordland or something. This caused such a reprisalby the Empire that they almost defeated the entire Norsca and caused untold war crimes, but von Carstein drew them home(iirc). This caused Norscans to hate the Empire(Norscans are very ancestral and very dwarfen in this way) and to further embrace Chaos.

    As for Bretonnia, the key measure is the SCOPE. It wasn't as extreme as it is today. It was always what it was(and you're completely correct about that), but extreme it was not. Maybe extremely heroic, but the other side wasn't as present(did it really need to be present?).

    Yes, I tend to want to preserve the spirit of 5th with the overall expansion of the lore of 6th+. I know what I want, something like Vermintide 1 or like Armada.
    Scot
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,076
    edited March 23
    Gorwe said:
    Scot said:
    Gorwe said:
    Ungood said:
    I don't recall Fantasy ever being.. dark.
    Maybe you missed 2nd and 6th? 2nd was just some experimental bullshit(from what I hear) and 6th tried to insert a lot of 40k elements in the game. Again, fleshing out BOTH rules(from Herohammer lol) and lore...perfect, but grimdank wasn't called for.

    Perfect example that I always give are Bretonnia and Norsca. Bretonnia used to be a land of chivalry, of high adventures where EVERYONE could become the King, compare it to how it looks after its update in 7th. I did, I found a Codex from 4th or 5th, entire spirit is different. As for Norsca, oh idk, it used to have kingdoms, used to trade and act as mercs or sea wolves, it wasn't all CHAOS. Compare it to their latest state. Hell, even Chaos itself! Khorne, for example, wasn't a RAGING DEMON ON THE SKULL THRONE OF SKULLS!, he was simply a coalescence of a certain type of emotions and energy, even had a positive side(he himself, yes ; also some argue that Verena or Myrmidia and such might also be good versions of him).

    This(cramming everything incoherently together) simply had to play a major element in Fantasy's downfall or I'm a Gnome!
    Well what you are recognising here is that some elements of the setting were better in the past. I don't play Norsca as "all chaos" but Bretonnia though chivalrous is a land were peasants toil. What you are pointing out here sounds like a rewrite by someone who has an eye too much to the word "iconic". Pick what version you think best or look for a new IP, has anything else taken your fancy?
    Chaos should be an underlying building block for Norsca alongside local beliefs(imo), but people who are literally awash with the Winds of Chaos(North and somewhat West) shouldn't be in the same basket as the rest(East and, especially, South). Now, concerning Empire <-> Norsca relations, it's complicated. Norsii starved, so they raided the lands of Nordland or something. This caused such a reprisalby the Empire that they almost defeated the entire Norsca and caused untold war crimes, but von Carstein drew them home(iirc). This caused Norscans to hate the Empire(Norscans are very ancestral and very dwarfen in this way) and to further embrace Chaos.

    As for Bretonnia, the key measure is the SCOPE. It wasn't as extreme as it is today. It was always what it was(and you're completely correct about that), but extreme it was not. Maybe extremely heroic, but the other side wasn't as present(did it really need to be present?).

    Yes, I tend to want to preserve the spirit of 5th with the overall expansion of the lore of 6th+. I know what I want, something like Vermintide 1 or like Armada.
    Yes Vermintide has a heroic cast and gallows humour that can seem lacking from some of the Warhammer treatments, funnily enough after playing the first game I did think about having players as escapees from Mordheim or Ubersreik. When it comes to GMing and playing though a change of game works wonders, I have recently been looking at doing The Matrix using Feng Shui rules and thinking about running some Alchemical Exalted.

    When people can actually meet up again that is, maybe next year? :) 
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 4,255
    Welcome to your first official breakup. Where you realize that your partner didn’t grow in the same direction as you did and your paths diverted long before you became aware of it. Just say goodbye and move on, she’ll be fine and so will you.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    ScotGorweSovrath
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,677
    Gorwe said:
    Ungood said:
    I don't recall Fantasy ever being.. dark.
    Maybe you missed 2nd and 6th? 2nd was just some experimental bullshit(from what I hear) and 6th tried to insert a lot of 40k elements in the game. Again, fleshing out BOTH rules(from Herohammer lol) and lore...perfect, but grimdank wasn't called for.
    Oh yah, I remember when some new rules were put out to try and make Fantasy more Skirmish like 40K, or some such.

    Why they would need to revise lore is beyond me, unless it was done to try and sell a model.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 562
    lahnmir said:
    Welcome to your first official breakup. Where you realize that your partner didn’t grow in the same direction as you did and your paths diverted long before you became aware of it. Just say goodbye and move on, she’ll be fine and so will you.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    In this case, my partner would be dead, but with a chance to come back to living, but in as of yet unknown state.

    And the other friend with benefits is ever more sexy by the day. Could always be better.

    :)

  • GorweGorwe Member Posts: 562
    The point is that I could yap until no tomorrow, but Fantasy is a very rich...platform where various editions didn't only bring balance changes(etc), but often entire tonal shifts. The Warhammer Fantasy can basically be broken as thus, in eras:

    1-3: Genesis era(2nd could be excluded)
    4+5: Herohammer, badass, nonsense era(pretty close to the way Warhammer is portrayed in WAR / RoR)
    6+7: Insufferable grimdank ; fleshing iut(rules, world etc)
    8: Kinda ok, but too little too late
    Endtimes: Fall of Cadia for plebs.
    Age of Sigmar: Random badass high fantasy nonsense.

    With that said, could it be that I don't actually like Warhammer itself, but rather games set in it? Bear with me please. What if I love Armada or WAR etc, but don't really care about the IP itself? Or how it is presented in those games. I love the color and, honestly, adventure of WAR. I also like the adventure etc in Vermintide 1, but can't it have more color and life to it(2 is just meh to me).

    An interesting question.
Sign In or Register to comment.