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Camelot Unchained Releases their First Newsletter of 2021 - Talks Realms and Races | MMORPG.com

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  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 6,312
    Mythic, Mark's former studio, created a full-fledged MMO, DaoC, in just 18 months and $2,5M budget.  And it included PvE, which takes a lot of time to design and implement, while CU barely have PvE (except in the Depths). So I understand how they could be optimistic with CU, even though they needed to create an engine from scratch (at the beginning it was supposed to be a relatively straightforward engine that does specifically what they want it to do, i.e. 500 players battles at 30 FPS). Were the delivery dates given during the Kickstarter too optimistic? I think they were. But it's different than saying that the studio lied.
    This was amazingly insightful, and I want to thank you for putting this out, as truth be told this really shows exactly where Mark was coming from, as he had historically done exactly what he said he could do, in the time he gave himself to do it.

    Seems like he was being totally honest and legit in his own listed expectations based on what he had done in the past.

    I see no problem with that.

    So, I guess the question at this point becomes, what went so horribly assbackwards wrong with CU, that we are sitting here 5 years later, with no viable product.

    I suppose that is really where things start to fall apart as the delays keep piling up, I mean if he had done, and could do something similar in a roughly 2 year timeframe, even if he doubled that expectation, to say, 4 years overall, that still would have given us a game that should have launched in 2017, yet here we are, in 2021, with no game in sight.

    While I am not calling Mark a lair, I do firmly believe that his backers have every right to be justifiably pissed at his presented incompetence on this project... don't you?
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

    I'm Famous! Slapshot has Me in his Signature. Check it out!
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,555
    Mythic, Mark's former studio, created a full-fledged MMO, DaoC, in just 18 months and $2,5M budget.  And it included PvE, which takes a lot of time to design and implement, while CU barely have PvE (except in the Depths). So I understand how they could be optimistic with CU, even though they needed to create an engine from scratch (at the beginning it was supposed to be a relatively straightforward engine that does specifically what they want it to do, i.e. 500 players battles at 30 FPS). Were the delivery dates given during the Kickstarter too optimistic? I think they were. But it's different than saying that the studio lied.

    The $2.5M figure was an unsubstantiated figure Mark threw out in an interview here on MMORPG. There is no verifiable citation of the development costs. That figure is also minus any licensing and other development fees according to the wikipedia article. It is suspect at best. That was in 1999.

    Additionally, that figure and timeline don't include building an engine from the ground up from scratch.

    Mythic was not a small independent studio, but a subsidiary of EA with all the financial and infrastructure support of a major publisher. The studio had an undisclosed, but not insubstantial number of employees working on the title.

    Their later game Warhammer Online took 3 years, still working under EA, using an existing engine (thus no development time for the engine), and was shut down when the company lost over $1 BILLION dollars. "[Warhammer Online was shutdown]....shortly after the company reported a loss of $1.08 billion in the financial year for 2009" [1].

    These developers know very well the sort of timeline it takes to build this sort of engine and project and intentionally portrayed an unrealistic timeline to secure more support.

    Why people would apologize and virtue signal these sorts of practices is beyond me. I'm all for second chances and "benefits of the doubt" but nearly a decade later it shouldn't be surprising these projects are subject to severe criticism in light of the obvious bad faith they were launched under. And yet here we are with people arguing unbelievable apologies on their behalf throwing themselves in the line of fire like a religious martyr. Again, it is beyond me as to why.
    tzervoMendelKyleranScot
    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 3,138
    Despite all the problems with development, Camelot Unchained remains the only MMORPG that I am still excited for. I havent funded it at all, so the delays don't bother me, I'm not out of any money.


    Why am I still excited?


    1) It is genuinely massively multiplayer!
    The unique selling point of our genre is rarely utilised, let alone the focus of the game. Not so with CU. 1000+ player battles on a regular basis, with the tools and the design in place to (hopefully) make it fun. We've literally never seen this before.


    2) Deep combat mechanics
    This is a personal requirement of mine, and I've not seen it in years. They've designed a combat system where decision making, and not gear or physical skills, determines the outcome. Lots of class interdependency should also mean lots of group tactics and coordination.


    3) Horizontal Progression!!!!!
    It's finally happening! What I've been asking for for years is finally getting delivered. An entire game built around horizontal progression. Stated dev goal is max 10% power difference between players. I can't wait.


    4) Objective-based open world PvP.
    Another personal requirement, I love large scale fights over keeps and objectives, rather than just a grand deathmatch. With an added bonus, the players get to design and build the objectives, as well as destroy them with siege weapons. The MMO community has long asked for the ability to affect the game world and truly inhabit it. Well, CU is delivering.


    5) Crafter based economy
    This isn't going to be a loot-focused game. No epic drops. Crafters will have their own class and everything that players use will be made and sold by a crafter. This is great, whilst Im not a crafter myself I am a fan of craft-based economies. Given that the crafters will be able to design and build their own shops within the game world, should help with the feeling of a community.




    Now, we've seen that the engine can handle being massively multiplayer.

    We've seen that the building blocks of the combat system are there. This was one of the big delays (re-ability), as their first iteration didn't work well enough with massive numbers. This cost them 1 year, but the second iteration works at scale.

    We've not yet seen the progression mechanics, that still needs to be done.

    We've started to see the objective based pvp. We've seen the CUBE system working. We've seen buildings in game being destroyed. Weve seen siege engines destroying them. We haven't yet seen a larger game world or the floating-island mechanic for territory control.

    We've not yet seen the crafting.
    francis_baudUngood
  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 479
    edited February 3
    Ungood said:
    This was amazingly insightful, and I want to thank you for putting this out, as truth be told this really shows exactly where Mark was coming from, as he had historically done exactly what he said he could do, in the time he gave himself to do it.

    Seems like he was being totally honest and legit in his own listed expectations based on what he had done in the past.

    I see no problem with that.

    So, I guess the question at this point becomes, what went so horribly assbackwards wrong with CU, that we are sitting here 5 years later, with no viable product.

    I suppose that is really where things start to fall apart as the delays keep piling up, I mean if he had done, and could do something similar in a roughly 2 year timeframe, even if he doubled that expectation, to say, 4 years overall, that still would have given us a game that should have launched in 2017, yet here we are, in 2021, with no game in sight.

    While I am not calling Mark a lair, I do firmly believe that his backers have every right to be justifiably pissed at his presented incompetence on this project... don't you?
    From what I recall (+ Google), they did first have issues with the Ability Building System (the technical side of it, not the design) back in 2016 and they took many months to rebuild the system from scratch. Prior to 2016, they were working on their own solutions for in-game chat but then switched to Discord's GameBridge that offered integrated chat plus in-game voice services. But then Discord's GameBridge closed business so I guess CSE had to work on a new in-house solution (or worked on the previous one). The lighting system was insufficient and got reworked in 2016-2017, if I'm correct, and it took many months of engineering. Still in 2016-2017 they've been remaking the Animation System. The VFX system was reworked by George in 2017. The structure stability and destruction was worked on in 2017-2019 and a lot of efforts were put in. I think they're still working on this system. The procedural map generation system took (and still is taking) a lot of engineering time. The environment that changes according to realm ownership is another tech that took some time. Optimizing the engine for rendering 1000+ characters at acceptable performances was a very long process, plus all the networking to simulate those characters. They're also remaking 3D assets, like trees (before with in-house tools, now with Speed Tree) and characters. They also had a lot of issues to recruit new engineers in Fairfax, which slowed down development a lot. They then opened a second studio in Seattle to get more developers. That doesn't explain everything, but those are some of the reasons why they're late.
    Post edited by francis_baud on
    Ungoodtzervo
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    edited February 3
    Maybe not outright lies but deception rides a thin line right beside lies.There is also the possibility that mark has lied but proving it is difficult so we are allowed to just use our own judgement based on the many deceptive tactics used.
    Let me put it this way,NOTHING he shows us is factual gameplay unless it is actual realistic GAME PLAY,with actual players and actual realistic scenes and not some prefabbed scene with a few repeated/duplicated assets.

    I think was the very first video he showed us,was the first i saw anyhow and it was like the biggest lol attempt to prove his game could run MANY players at the same time.I went away laughing thinking,dude do you actually think your video proves anything,well apparently he thought he could fool some people.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    BTW...@post way above....

    I need more fingers and toes to count all the crap that gets marketed to us as "promises"and false hype.Chris Robert's made th same claims,even to mention he only needed 6 million to build his game and he also claimed when the accusations flew that he didn't even need to steal gamer's money because he had his own from previous ventures.

    I fully GET IT,yes decisions can change,maybe bigger lofty goals,nothing wrong with wanting to IMPROVE on your original thought.
    One big problem,DELIVER on your original promise to the backers FIRST before moving on and asking for MORE money.
    It comes down to very simple economics,simple psychology,if they actually release a product as finished it will be heavilty scrutinized and the backlash may be so severe to sink the game and the crash the money train.
    UngoodMendel

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 479
    edited February 3
    Torval said:

    The $2.5M figure was an unsubstantiated figure Mark threw out in an interview here on MMORPG. There is no verifiable citation of the development costs. That figure is also minus any licensing and other development fees according to the wikipedia article. It is suspect at best. That was in 1999.

    Additionally, that figure and timeline don't include building an engine from the ground up from scratch.

    Mythic was not a small independent studio, but a subsidiary of EA with all the financial and infrastructure support of a major publisher. The studio had an undisclosed, but not insubstantial number of employees working on the title.

    Their later game Warhammer Online took 3 years, still working under EA, using an existing engine (thus no development time for the engine), and was shut down when the company lost over $1 BILLION dollars. "[Warhammer Online was shutdown]....shortly after the company reported a loss of $1.08 billion in the financial year for 2009" [1].

    These developers know very well the sort of timeline it takes to build this sort of engine and project and intentionally portrayed an unrealistic timeline to secure more support.

    Why people would apologize and virtue signal these sorts of practices is beyond me. I'm all for second chances and "benefits of the doubt" but nearly a decade later it shouldn't be surprising these projects are subject to severe criticism in light of the obvious bad faith they were launched under. And yet here we are with people arguing unbelievable apologies on their behalf throwing themselves in the line of fire like a religious martyr. Again, it is beyond me as to why.

    The head of the studio, in an interview, says they have spent $2,5M on DAoC development (excluding equipment leases). Nobody seems to deny this number.

    As far as I know, Mythic was an independent studio back in 1999-2001 (during the development and launch of DAoC). They've been acquired later by EA, in 2006. The number of employees working on DAoC in 1999-2001 was about 25.
    Ungood
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,146
    Torval said:
    Mendel said:
    Torval said:
    Scot said:
    Can you give us examples of lies you accuse the studio of?
    Pulling up a chair and grabbing some popcorn.
    Puts out a couple of Cokes on the table to share and takes a bowl of that fine looking popcorn.
    Waits for some good arguments why manually processing anything of this magnitude in a professional business project isn't worthy of scathing criticism and rebuke. Taking notes! :lol:
    Manual processing *AND* a single person working that problem.  Isn't there someone to delegate that menial task to?
    Excellent question. I emailed Bezos this morning and asked, but apparently he's handling Amazon refunds for the entire world and is backlogged by about 12 years and 153 million people and couldn't answer.
    Fun fact-  If you email [email protected] you get his professional apology team.
    Torval

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 479
    edited February 3
    Wizardry said:
    [...]
    Let me put it this way,NOTHING he shows us is factual gameplay unless it is actual realistic GAME PLAY,with actual players and actual realistic scenes and not some prefabbed scene with a few repeated/duplicated assets.
    I agree with you that they aren't showing enough gameplay to non-backers (in the forums we're seeing 1000+ ARCs videos, Cherry Keep sieges, backers' published in-game videos, etc.). The last gameplay video they've posted publicly was this one, which is 2 years old (starts at 19:00) : 
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 16,323
    edited February 4
    Wizardry said:
    [...]
    Let me put it this way,NOTHING he shows us is factual gameplay unless it is actual realistic GAME PLAY,with actual players and actual realistic scenes and not some prefabbed scene with a few repeated/duplicated assets.
    I agree with you that they aren't showing enough gameplay to non-backers (in the forums we're seeing 1000+ ARCs videos, Cherry Keep sieges, backers' published in-game videos, etc.). The last gameplay video they've posted publicly was this one, which is 2 years old (starts at 19:00) : 
    Two years old?! This is why that huge question mark is there, players do not expect huge leaps every time they make a video, just a demonstration that work is being done. SC does this, too much in my opinion, but you do need at least couple of videos a year.
    francis_baud
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,646
    Scot said:
    Wizardry said:
    [...]
    Let me put it this way,NOTHING he shows us is factual gameplay unless it is actual realistic GAME PLAY,with actual players and actual realistic scenes and not some prefabbed scene with a few repeated/duplicated assets.
    I agree with you that they aren't showing enough gameplay to non-backers (in the forums we're seeing 1000+ ARCs videos, Cherry Keep sieges, backers' published in-game videos, etc.). The last gameplay video they've posted publicly was this one, which is 2 years old (starts at 19:00) :
    Two years old?! This is why that huge question mark is there, players do not expect huge leaps every time they make a video, just a demonstration that work is being done. SC does this, too much in my opinion, but you do need at least couple of videos a year.
    I have to point out all backers have access to test the game's progress (or lack thereof) on a regular basis.

    Mark has stated he is in no way trying to market CU yet, nor raise anymore money hence the lack of newer public videos and the NDA has been kept solidly in place.

    He doesn't blast the media outlets with information, he just publishers a newsletter and a few video streams monthly directed at the backers which sites like this pick up on their own.


    francis_baudScotUngoodtzervoYashaX

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 479
    Scot said:
    Wizardry said:
    [...]
    Let me put it this way,NOTHING he shows us is factual gameplay unless it is actual realistic GAME PLAY,with actual players and actual realistic scenes and not some prefabbed scene with a few repeated/duplicated assets.
    I agree with you that they aren't showing enough gameplay to non-backers (in the forums we're seeing 1000+ ARCs videos, Cherry Keep sieges, backers' published in-game videos, etc.). The last gameplay video they've posted publicly was this one, which is 2 years old (starts at 19:00) : 
    Two years old?! This is why that huge question mark is there, players do not expect huge leaps every time they make a video, just a demonstration that work is being done. SC does this, too much in my opinion, but you do need at least couple of videos a year.
    When the studio is satisfied with their forest biome I hope they'll showcase some PvP in this environment.
    KyleranUngood
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    Torval said:
    Scot said:


    Can you give us examples of lies you accuse the studio of?


    Pulling up a chair and grabbing some popcorn.

    Puts out a couple of Cokes on the table to share and takes a bowl of that fine looking popcorn.

    Waits for some good arguments why manually processing anything of this magnitude in a professional business project isn't worthy of scathing criticism and rebuke. Taking notes! :lol:

    Apparently, no one in the entire organization under Mark Jacobs was trustworthy enough to trust with refunds.  What does that say about both MJ and CSE?
    KyleranTorval
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 6,312
    edited February 5
    Torval said:
    Scot said:


    Can you give us examples of lies you accuse the studio of?


    Pulling up a chair and grabbing some popcorn.

    Puts out a couple of Cokes on the table to share and takes a bowl of that fine looking popcorn.

    Waits for some good arguments why manually processing anything of this magnitude in a professional business project isn't worthy of scathing criticism and rebuke. Taking notes! :lol:

    Apparently, no one in the entire organization under Mark Jacobs was trustworthy enough to trust with refunds.  What does that say about both MJ and CSE?
    It has nothing to do with actual Trust. My job was a foreman on site, and while my boss trusted me to not only make, but also sign off on multi million dollar purchase orders, I never once had to process a refund or return, that was that the accountants did.

    Sometimes it's just an issue of "Not your job"
    francis_baud
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

    I'm Famous! Slapshot has Me in his Signature. Check it out!
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member RarePosts: 882
    edited February 5
    Ungood said:
    Torval said:
    Scot said:


    Can you give us examples of lies you accuse the studio of?


    Pulling up a chair and grabbing some popcorn.

    Puts out a couple of Cokes on the table to share and takes a bowl of that fine looking popcorn.

    Waits for some good arguments why manually processing anything of this magnitude in a professional business project isn't worthy of scathing criticism and rebuke. Taking notes! :lol:

    Apparently, no one in the entire organization under Mark Jacobs was trustworthy enough to trust with refunds.  What does that say about both MJ and CSE?
    It has nothing to do with actual Trust. My job was a foreman on site, and while my boss trusted me to not only make, but also sign off on multi million dollar purchase orders, I never once had to process a refund or return, that was that the accountants did.

    Sometimes it's just an issue of "Not your job"
    I do have to chime in and say it is weird that the head of a studio is personally doing refunds.  Of all the time management issues going on, is he validating employee parking too?  

    I'm just saying, that is just so confusing that it isn't delegated.  Unless he doesn't contribute much day to day at this point?

    When you read him on Massively threads... he says stuff like, sorry, couldn't get into the office to process more refunds.  It's like a Mom and Pop business.
    KylerantzervoTorvalScot
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,978
    Ungood said:
    Torval said:
    Scot said:


    Can you give us examples of lies you accuse the studio of?


    Pulling up a chair and grabbing some popcorn.

    Puts out a couple of Cokes on the table to share and takes a bowl of that fine looking popcorn.

    Waits for some good arguments why manually processing anything of this magnitude in a professional business project isn't worthy of scathing criticism and rebuke. Taking notes! :lol:

    Apparently, no one in the entire organization under Mark Jacobs was trustworthy enough to trust with refunds.  What does that say about both MJ and CSE?
    It has nothing to do with actual Trust. My job was a foreman on site, and while my boss trusted me to not only make, but also sign off on multi million dollar purchase orders, I never once had to process a refund or return, that was that the accountants did.

    Sometimes it's just an issue of "Not your job"
    I do have to chime in and say it is weird that the head of a studio is personally doing refunds.  Of all the time management issues going on, is he validating employee parking too?  

    I'm just saying, that is just so confusing that it isn't delegated.  Unless he doesn't contribute much day to day at this point?

    When you read him on Massively threads... he says stuff like, sorry, couldn't get into the office to process more refunds.  It's like a Mom and Pop business.
    Well I suppose if they just have devs and artists working on the game then MJ would by default be the best person to deal with shitty non-production related stuff like this.
    ....
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member RarePosts: 882
    YashaX said:
    Ungood said:
    Torval said:
    Scot said:


    Can you give us examples of lies you accuse the studio of?


    Pulling up a chair and grabbing some popcorn.

    Puts out a couple of Cokes on the table to share and takes a bowl of that fine looking popcorn.

    Waits for some good arguments why manually processing anything of this magnitude in a professional business project isn't worthy of scathing criticism and rebuke. Taking notes! :lol:

    Apparently, no one in the entire organization under Mark Jacobs was trustworthy enough to trust with refunds.  What does that say about both MJ and CSE?
    It has nothing to do with actual Trust. My job was a foreman on site, and while my boss trusted me to not only make, but also sign off on multi million dollar purchase orders, I never once had to process a refund or return, that was that the accountants did.

    Sometimes it's just an issue of "Not your job"
    I do have to chime in and say it is weird that the head of a studio is personally doing refunds.  Of all the time management issues going on, is he validating employee parking too?  

    I'm just saying, that is just so confusing that it isn't delegated.  Unless he doesn't contribute much day to day at this point?

    When you read him on Massively threads... he says stuff like, sorry, couldn't get into the office to process more refunds.  It's like a Mom and Pop business.
    Well I suppose if they just have devs and artists working on the game then MJ would by default be the best person to deal with shitty non-production related stuff like this.
    Is there an accountant in the house? ;)
    tzervo
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,555
    edited February 5
    Ungood said:
    Torval said:
    Scot said:


    Can you give us examples of lies you accuse the studio of?


    Pulling up a chair and grabbing some popcorn.

    Puts out a couple of Cokes on the table to share and takes a bowl of that fine looking popcorn.

    Waits for some good arguments why manually processing anything of this magnitude in a professional business project isn't worthy of scathing criticism and rebuke. Taking notes! :lol:

    Apparently, no one in the entire organization under Mark Jacobs was trustworthy enough to trust with refunds.  What does that say about both MJ and CSE?
    It has nothing to do with actual Trust. My job was a foreman on site, and while my boss trusted me to not only make, but also sign off on multi million dollar purchase orders, I never once had to process a refund or return, that was that the accountants did.

    Sometimes it's just an issue of "Not your job"

    So the CEO of your construction company did the accountant work? What were you a 5 person mom and pop op? Because that is what is happening here. The accountants (if there are any) aren't doing that apparently. The CEO is doing it all. The above points by myself and Mighty Unclean stand.
    TwistedSister77Slapshot1188tzervo
    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member RarePosts: 882
    edited February 5
    Torval said:
    Ungood said:
    Torval said:
    Scot said:


    Can you give us examples of lies you accuse the studio of?


    Pulling up a chair and grabbing some popcorn.

    Puts out a couple of Cokes on the table to share and takes a bowl of that fine looking popcorn.

    Waits for some good arguments why manually processing anything of this magnitude in a professional business project isn't worthy of scathing criticism and rebuke. Taking notes! :lol:

    Apparently, no one in the entire organization under Mark Jacobs was trustworthy enough to trust with refunds.  What does that say about both MJ and CSE?
    It has nothing to do with actual Trust. My job was a foreman on site, and while my boss trusted me to not only make, but also sign off on multi million dollar purchase orders, I never once had to process a refund or return, that was that the accountants did.

    Sometimes it's just an issue of "Not your job"

    So the CEO of your construction company did the accountant work? What were you a 5 person mom and pop op? Because that is what is happening here. The accountants (if there are any) aren't doing that apparently. The CEO is doing it all. The above points by myself and Mighty Unclean stand.
    Hey, MJ uses Taxpro... and manually enters every receipt... including employee taxi fare.  I'm sure he is also the HR person too, and the janitor... spotless bowls  :D
    tzervo
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,646
    Torval said:
    Ungood said:
    Torval said:
    Scot said:


    Can you give us examples of lies you accuse the studio of?


    Pulling up a chair and grabbing some popcorn.

    Puts out a couple of Cokes on the table to share and takes a bowl of that fine looking popcorn.

    Waits for some good arguments why manually processing anything of this magnitude in a professional business project isn't worthy of scathing criticism and rebuke. Taking notes! :lol:

    Apparently, no one in the entire organization under Mark Jacobs was trustworthy enough to trust with refunds.  What does that say about both MJ and CSE?
    It has nothing to do with actual Trust. My job was a foreman on site, and while my boss trusted me to not only make, but also sign off on multi million dollar purchase orders, I never once had to process a refund or return, that was that the accountants did.

    Sometimes it's just an issue of "Not your job"

    So the CEO of your construction company did the accountant work? What were you a 5 person mom and pop op? Because that is what is happening here. The accountants (if there are any) aren't doing that apparently. The CEO is doing it all. The above points by myself and Mighty Unclean stand.
    Actually, I've worked for small businesses with 30 or so employees (CU doesn't have more than 50 I'm guessing) and it isn't unusual for the owners (stop calling them CEOs, that's a big corporate title) to keep a tight hand on who can sign the checks to actually spend money.

    More than one business has taken it in the chin hard or even failed because they trusted the wrong person to handle to money.

    I'm not surprised he has to be the one to "push the button" on giving refunds, after all, by all accounts he's put a large amount of his own money into this endeavor.

    I recall a story a few years back where a company's CFO embezzled $4M from his employer, and quickly spent $2M on a mobile game. (That one Arnold S used to promote)






    francis_baudYashaX

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 16,323
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:
    Ungood said:
    Torval said:
    Scot said:


    Can you give us examples of lies you accuse the studio of?


    Pulling up a chair and grabbing some popcorn.

    Puts out a couple of Cokes on the table to share and takes a bowl of that fine looking popcorn.

    Waits for some good arguments why manually processing anything of this magnitude in a professional business project isn't worthy of scathing criticism and rebuke. Taking notes! :lol:

    Apparently, no one in the entire organization under Mark Jacobs was trustworthy enough to trust with refunds.  What does that say about both MJ and CSE?
    It has nothing to do with actual Trust. My job was a foreman on site, and while my boss trusted me to not only make, but also sign off on multi million dollar purchase orders, I never once had to process a refund or return, that was that the accountants did.

    Sometimes it's just an issue of "Not your job"

    So the CEO of your construction company did the accountant work? What were you a 5 person mom and pop op? Because that is what is happening here. The accountants (if there are any) aren't doing that apparently. The CEO is doing it all. The above points by myself and Mighty Unclean stand.
    Actually, I've worked for small businesses with 30 or so employees (CU doesn't have more than 50 I'm guessing) and it isn't unusual for the owners (stop calling them CEOs, that's a big corporate title) to keep a tight hand on who can sign the checks to actually spend money.

    More than one business has taken it in the chin hard or even failed because they trusted the wrong person to handle to money.

    I'm not surprised he has to be the one to "push the button" on giving refunds, after all, by all accounts he's put a large amount of his own money into this endeavor.

    I recall a story a few years back where a company's CFO embezzled $4M from his employer, and quickly spent $2M on a mobile game. (That one Arnold S used to promote)
    Yes, it is not the personal authorisation that surprises me, it is the way he is doing that. Surely there is someone in accounts who presents a detailed list and he would sign of on that, not the CEO looking at every individual claimant, checking the banking details and pushing the button. Does he open the post as well?
  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 479
    edited February 5
    I'm just saying, that is just so confusing that it isn't delegated.  Unless he doesn't contribute much day to day at this point?
    He does delegate many tasks but he still decide, at times, to produce, design, manage community, recruit new developers, etc. on top of being CEO and Creative Director.

    YashaX said:
    Well I suppose if they just have devs and artists working on the game then MJ would by default be the best person to deal with shitty non-production related stuff like this.
    They have a Director of HR (who helps with the refund requests), a community manager, an associate producer and a producer (who is also lead audio designer).

    Kyleran said:
    I'm not surprised he has to be the one to "push the button" on giving refunds, after all, by all accounts he's put a large amount of his own money into this endeavor.
    Yea parts of the refund process (answering emails, asking for personal information and transaction ID, transmitting the info to Mark, etc.) are done by an employee, but the refund itself (which takes about 15 minutes) is done manually by Mark. They've refunded more than $400,000 since November 2019 so it's not small money and I can understand how he would like to keep control over that.


    Post edited by francis_baud on
    YashaX
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,555
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:
    Ungood said:
    Torval said:
    Scot said:


    Can you give us examples of lies you accuse the studio of?


    Pulling up a chair and grabbing some popcorn.

    Puts out a couple of Cokes on the table to share and takes a bowl of that fine looking popcorn.

    Waits for some good arguments why manually processing anything of this magnitude in a professional business project isn't worthy of scathing criticism and rebuke. Taking notes! :lol:

    Apparently, no one in the entire organization under Mark Jacobs was trustworthy enough to trust with refunds.  What does that say about both MJ and CSE?
    It has nothing to do with actual Trust. My job was a foreman on site, and while my boss trusted me to not only make, but also sign off on multi million dollar purchase orders, I never once had to process a refund or return, that was that the accountants did.

    Sometimes it's just an issue of "Not your job"

    So the CEO of your construction company did the accountant work? What were you a 5 person mom and pop op? Because that is what is happening here. The accountants (if there are any) aren't doing that apparently. The CEO is doing it all. The above points by myself and Mighty Unclean stand.
    Actually, I've worked for small businesses with 30 or so employees (CU doesn't have more than 50 I'm guessing) and it isn't unusual for the owners (stop calling them CEOs, that's a big corporate title) to keep a tight hand on who can sign the checks to actually spend money.

    More than one business has taken it in the chin hard or even failed because they trusted the wrong person to handle to money.

    I'm not surprised he has to be the one to "push the button" on giving refunds, after all, by all accounts he's put a large amount of his own money into this endeavor.

    I recall a story a few years back where a company's CFO embezzled $4M from his employer, and quickly spent $2M on a mobile game. (That one Arnold S used to promote)

    That is certainly a testament that many small businesses are poorly run and businesses of any size are subject to theft and fraud from poor oversight. No wonder so many fail.

    But again, he's doing more than just supervising and approving, he's manually processing each one like this is 1944. It is definitely possible to run a tight ship while still delegating jobs and tasks to the appropriate people and providing executive oversight. Micro-management and inefficient management are likely why this project is closing in on being a decade overdue.
    MendelScot
    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,699
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:
    Ungood said:
    Torval said:
    Scot said:


    Can you give us examples of lies you accuse the studio of?


    Pulling up a chair and grabbing some popcorn.

    Puts out a couple of Cokes on the table to share and takes a bowl of that fine looking popcorn.

    Waits for some good arguments why manually processing anything of this magnitude in a professional business project isn't worthy of scathing criticism and rebuke. Taking notes! :lol:

    Apparently, no one in the entire organization under Mark Jacobs was trustworthy enough to trust with refunds.  What does that say about both MJ and CSE?
    It has nothing to do with actual Trust. My job was a foreman on site, and while my boss trusted me to not only make, but also sign off on multi million dollar purchase orders, I never once had to process a refund or return, that was that the accountants did.

    Sometimes it's just an issue of "Not your job"

    So the CEO of your construction company did the accountant work? What were you a 5 person mom and pop op? Because that is what is happening here. The accountants (if there are any) aren't doing that apparently. The CEO is doing it all. The above points by myself and Mighty Unclean stand.
    Actually, I've worked for small businesses with 30 or so employees (CU doesn't have more than 50 I'm guessing) and it isn't unusual for the owners (stop calling them CEOs, that's a big corporate title) to keep a tight hand on who can sign the checks to actually spend money.

    More than one business has taken it in the chin hard or even failed because they trusted the wrong person to handle to money.

    I'm not surprised he has to be the one to "push the button" on giving refunds, after all, by all accounts he's put a large amount of his own money into this endeavor.

    I recall a story a few years back where a company's CFO embezzled $4M from his employer, and quickly spent $2M on a mobile game. (That one Arnold S used to promote)

    That is certainly a testament that many small businesses are poorly run and businesses of any size are subject to theft and fraud from poor oversight. No wonder so many fail.

    But again, he's doing more than just supervising and approving, he's manually processing each one like this is 1944. It is definitely possible to run a tight ship while still delegating jobs and tasks to the appropriate people and providing executive oversight. Micro-management and inefficient management are likely why this project is closing in on being a decade overdue.

    They took the payments electronically, where is the automation to refund the payments electronically?  Even if you're going to use a single authority, don't neglect automation.

    That has created a single point of failure.



    Torval

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

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