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  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    remsleep said:
    How can you lower cost of entry for a F2P game?
    Explained in article.
    UngoodGdemami
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,475
    remsleep said:
    How can you lower cost of entry for a F2P game?

    It's more Freeer......... duhh
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    Free ain't free!
    Gdemami
  • CuddleheartCuddleheart Member UncommonPosts: 391
    Love the game, but the barrier to entry is still too high for me to recommend this to anyone.  It's just not a value to spend $60 + $15/month to slog through the empty leveling zones in order to pay two more times to be in current content.  It's a real tough sell when something like WoW maintains it's engine, isn't completely cash store driven and is only $40+$15/month for all content and Classic.
    Iselinblueturtle13XodicGdemami
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 8,737
    Scorchien said:
    remsleep said:
    How can you lower cost of entry for a F2P game?

    It's more Freeer......... duhh

    You mean freemiumer.........
    Scot
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 16,435
    Love the game, but the barrier to entry is still too high for me to recommend this to anyone.  It's just not a value to spend $60 + $15/month to slog through the empty leveling zones in order to pay two more times to be in current content.  It's a real tough sell when something like WoW maintains it's engine, isn't completely cash store driven and is only $40+$15/month for all content and Classic.
    And you only need to do the $40 if you want to play in the latest expansion. There is no initial buy any longer.

    It's actually free for levels 1-20 (and then 1-20 again with other classes without limit if you want to check them all out) with their permanent trial and then $15 a month if you liked those first 20 levels enough to keep going.

    People like to shit on WoW because, you know it's WoW and Blizz, but they have the easiest entry and least confusing monetization of any of them.
    Po_ggblueturtle13Gdemami
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,749
    edited January 13
    I never got this "cost barrier to entry" complaint... content is (pretty much) in chunks, a fresh player don't even need Moria for weeks (at least, based on leveling speed), let alone Mordor or Morgul FFS - and yet there's always the "have to pay XX amount of cash for all the content, too high!" whine.

    With that said, I must digress with MOP. The Daybreak-powered new shop is indeed here, but it ain't much of a change in that.
    The new starter pack is a good change, it's actually a decent pack and much better than Gamgee was. Especially for accounts without the elves-noses-up-high, since those are stripped from Mordor, so either $10 in the in-game store, or $10 with this pack, and a lot of goodies comes with it.

    But the expansion bundle... not so much, since not only high elves were stripped from Mordor, all the expansions in the bundle are. As opposed to the former Quad-Pack (which was $40, but often discounted to $20, rarely even to $10) where you got the full expansions, with character slots and classes included.
    With those counted, this new bundle is on par, more or less. It has HD and the (stripped) Mordor, two chunks of content fresh starting players won't see for months, but missing classes (and extra slots for those classes) those players could use right from the start.

    On a 50% sale it might will be a decent deal. I'm curious on the demand however, I'd wager everyone* (and their neighbor, and their dog, etc.) grabbed all the content already, for free during the summer via the coupons.
    *everyone playing, or played, or have the slightest chance of playing sometime later :)
    ScotUngoodProfGetz
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,331
    SWTOR gets this right.  Sub for a month and you get all leveling content free, up to that point, forever.  You can then keep subbing for end game access, extra storage and credits and such.

    LOTRO is still miles away from where they should be if the goal is to get lots of new players on board.
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,744
    SWTOR gets this right.  Sub for a month and you get all leveling content free, up to that point, forever.  You can then keep subbing for end game access, extra storage and credits and such.

    LOTRO is still miles away from where they should be if the goal is to get lots of new players on board.
    They used to be labelled the worst but as other game companies began to introduce their iteration, their model became better in people's eyes. 
    Gdemami

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,331
    kitarad said:
    SWTOR gets this right.  Sub for a month and you get all leveling content free, up to that point, forever.  You can then keep subbing for end game access, extra storage and credits and such.

    LOTRO is still miles away from where they should be if the goal is to get lots of new players on board.
    They used to be labelled the worst but as other game companies began to introduce their iteration, their model became better in people's eyes. 
    The biggest issue I had with their transition was forcing people to pay for extra hotbars.  I assume that's still in place but my guess is a single sub unlocks them permanently?

    I mean GW2, and I assume ESO, (in)arguably have better models?  I've heard some noise regarding ESO DLC but I only own the base game and one expac that was bundled on sale. 
    Gdemami
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,744
    kitarad said:
    SWTOR gets this right.  Sub for a month and you get all leveling content free, up to that point, forever.  You can then keep subbing for end game access, extra storage and credits and such.

    LOTRO is still miles away from where they should be if the goal is to get lots of new players on board.
    They used to be labelled the worst but as other game companies began to introduce their iteration, their model became better in people's eyes. 
    The biggest issue I had with their transition was forcing people to pay for extra hotbars.  I assume that's still in place but my guess is a single sub unlocks them permanently?

    I mean GW2, and I assume ESO, (in)arguably have better models?  I've heard some noise regarding ESO DLC but I only own the base game and one expac that was bundled on sale. 
    I don't think you need even a single sub just 5 bucks to unlock it. Or you can buy it on the market their auction thingy.

  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,749
    edited January 13
    SWTOR gets this right.  Sub for a month and you get all leveling content free, up to that point, forever.  You can then keep subbing for end game access, extra storage and credits and such.

    LOTRO is still miles away from where they should be if the goal is to get lots of new players on board.

    Apples and oranges. Each game weights differently the elements in their monetisation model, and at the end the reception depends entirely on the player's personal preferences.

    True, in SWTOR you keep the content (sans the last one) after your sub expires. Have fun with it, when you get there - if ever, with legs and hands tied together :)
    (credit cap, authorisation, crew skills, crafting, inventory, etc., with some of those are hard limits, without a way to uplift)
    EAware's model leans on keeping the players subbed, therefore make the f2p/preferred life really painful.


    In LotRO, you keep everything after the sub expires, sans the content.
    Turbine's original model was leaning on selling the content, like in the old, subscription-based days. That's why you have to buy the expansions even if you're VIP.

    To each their own. I personally like the latter, I prefer to have unrestricted gameplay and buying the content as I go, than hopping around on one leg and blindfolded, but hey, with all the content available... since who cares about unlocked, available content 20+ levels ahead, while you can't even remove your helmet, right? :)


    Agree on your second point, I too doubt LotRO will bring a lot of new players on board. Anyone even the slightest interested, already tried it.

    ed. wow, you're chatty (or me type way too slow...) Nope, sub doesn't unlock anything in SWTOR, it puts you on Preferred which has better limits than fully Free, but still limited. Less hotbar than sub, still can't remove headslot, etc.
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,331
    Po_gg said:
    SWTOR gets this right.  Sub for a month and you get all leveling content free, up to that point, forever.  You can then keep subbing for end game access, extra storage and credits and such.

    LOTRO is still miles away from where they should be if the goal is to get lots of new players on board.

    Apples and oranges. Each game weights differently the elements in the monetisation model  (same goes for Wow), and at the end the reception depends entirely the player's personal preferences.

    True, in SWTOR you keep the content (sans the last one) after your sub expires. Have fun with it, when you get there - if ever, with legs and hands tied together :)
    (credit cap, authorisation, crew skills, crafting, inventory, etc., with some of those are hard limits, without a way to uplift)
    EAware's model leans on keep the players subbed, therefore make the f2p/preferred life really painful.


    In LotRO, you keep everything after the sub expires, sans the content.
    Turbine's original model was leaning on selling the content, like in the old, subscription-based days. That's why you have to buy the expansions even if you're VIP.

    To each their own. I personally like the latter, I prefer to have unrestricted gameplay and buying the content as I go, than hopping around on one leg and blindfolded, but hey, with all the content available... since who cares about unlocked, available content 20+ levels ahead, while you can't even remove your helmet, right? :)


    Agree on your second point, I too doubt LotRO will bring a lot of new players on board. Anyone even the slightest interested, already tried it.
    You'll have zero issues leveling through all of the expansions without a current sub as I did it.  You get all the gear you need, including augments, while questing.  So a brand new player can spend $15 today and unlock all of that expansion content permanently.  LOTRO doesn't even come close to that value.


    Crafting, using the AH and stuff really aren't worth the effort if you just want to level your characters.  If you play long enough to want those things then sub away.  But it's quite viable to sub only when you really want to and not sub when you just want to replay the content you own.

    How much of SWTOR have you played BTW?  I'm just curious how much of your opinion is based on first hand experience.  If I get really bored I should make F2P LOTRO and SWTOR accounts and see what it's like.  The one advantage that LOTRO has is that you can unlock expacs with points you earn, but I'm curious at how long you can go before saying "screw it" and just start spending money.
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,744
    I simply will not play any game that offers a sub option without one. There is absolutely no reason in my book to ever play without the full options available as I think if I am going to be spending my precious time on your game then I need to pay for it... simple equation. I may not buy all the expansions if I am not at that level but a sub has never been an issue.
    Po_gg

  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,749
    How much of SWTOR have you played BTW?  I'm just curious how much of your opinion is based on first hand experience.
    From launch a couple months, then after the first f2p switch a few more months, then followed their model changes and tried each of them with 1-2 months of play here and there, sometimes with subbed back.
    I'd say I'm up-to-date until KotFE, though my highest char is 60something (have all classes, but only played 4 to the end of the class story).
    This latest change (credit cap raise mostly) I just tested on a lowbie alt yet, not really in the mood for Star Wars recently.
    The one advantage that LOTRO has is that you can unlock expacs with points you earn, but I'm curious at how long you can go before saying "screw it" and just start spending money.
    It'd take a long grind, and I usually advice against it. Quad-Pack was the best way to get the expansions, imo.
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 1,123
    I don't understand the mindset of people who expect a high quality, fun game with tons of content but want it all free.

    I really like when I can try a game for free, but I have no issue spending money if it is a game I know I'll enjoy and want to play.

    What I always thought was interesting are some players in DDO that know the system so well they can get everything without paying a dime.  A guy that does this was explaining it to me, and how he farmed turbine points.  The fun for him was not paying money.  He had a good job and could easily sink tons into the game, but he enjoyed farming turbine points and getting it all for nothing (besides a huge time investment).  He was in his 50s and I just assumed he would value his time more.

    To each their own.  Life is finding enjoyment in what you can.  
    ScotPo_ggUngoodProfGetz
  • CuddleheartCuddleheart Member UncommonPosts: 391
    edited January 13
    Po_gg said:
    I never got this "cost barrier to entry" complaint... 

    What's not to get?  It's a matter of relative value to other products on the market.  It makes no sense to buy an iphone 7 for 10 installments of $10 if you can get an iphone 8 for $20.

    Imagine selling your friend or significant other on this game.  You're a good salesmen if you can convince someone who hasn't played at this point to play a game that's 13+ years old and hasn't been updated nearly as much as competitors(Sorry, no 4k if you want to read text...ever).  Then you have around $200 in installments and months of playing with very few players around before you can get to endgame...Where the meat of all MMOs are.  People who aren't hardcore PC gamers know what WoW is.  Most never heard of LOTRO.

    I'm not shitting on LOTRO as a game.  SoA+Moria were some of my favorite play experiences in MMOs, ever.  The pricing scheme is complete and utter nonsense and hard to defend when compared to any other 'games as a service' type thing on the PC market.
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,749
    Po_gg said:
    I never got this "cost barrier to entry" complaint... 

    What's not to get?
    What's not the get in I don't get it? :)
    It's a different mindset (like political sides, or sticking to MMORPGs the "life starts at level cap" bullshit), which seems stupid to me and I can't side with it. Simple as that.

    I can accept it as a different opinion, just don't get it. It's like saying "I won't start reading Amber (Zelazny's series, 10 books) because of the barrier to entry is too costly".
    Just buy the first one to see if you even like it, lugnat...

    Similarly,
    Imagine selling your friend or significant other on this game. 
    I don't need to sell it, they can decide for themselves... Install, roll a character, maybe a second one as well to see a different starter area, and play to 20.
    If like it so far, runs well, no issues with the 4k text ( :) ), etc. then sub for a month. During that try a few more classes, play to 50, and if still likes the game, and want to continue, it's time to decide how to get the content.

    Ain't rocket science, not unless the mindset is "Nope, I won't set foot in the game until I have all the content beforehand". Which is stupid - at least imo.

    And it has nothing to do with the market, the competition, or how much content other games give for free, it's a general issue (hence I've brought a book example above).
    Ungood
  • CuddleheartCuddleheart Member UncommonPosts: 391
    Po_gg said:
    Po_gg said:
    I never got this "cost barrier to entry" complaint... 

    What's not to get?
    What's not the get in I don't get it? :)
    It's a different mindset (like political sides, or sticking to MMORPGs the "life starts at level cap" bullshit), which seems stupid to me and I can't side with it. Simple as that.

    I can accept it as a different opinion, just don't get it. It's like saying "I won't start reading Amber (Zelazny's series, 10 books) because of the barrier to entry is too costly".
    Just buy the first one to see if you even like it, lugnat...

    Similarly,
    Imagine selling your friend or significant other on this game. 
    I don't need to sell it, they can decide for themselves... Install, roll a character, maybe a second one as well to see a different starter area, and play to 20.
    If like it so far, runs well, no issues with the 4k text ( :) ), etc. then sub for a month. During that try a few more classes, play to 50, and if still likes the game, and want to continue, it's time to decide how to get the content.

    Ain't rocket science, not unless the mindset is "Nope, I won't set foot in the game until I have all the content beforehand". Which is stupid - at least imo.

    And it has nothing to do with the market, the competition, or how much content other games give for free, it's a general issue (hence I've brought a book example above).
    Yikes.  I wasn't trying to convince you or even say you were wrong.  I wasn't sure if you were being obtuse or were overthinking it.  I was just clearing up why value is an issue.  Seeing all the paywalls ahead of you relative to similar products has a legitimate psychological effect that, as a business, you probably want to avoid if you want to maintain a healthy customer base.  If you don't feel that way, cool.  However, many do, and I was giving you insight as to why I do. 

    This doesn't seem like this conversation isn't going to end particularly well, so I'm gonna bid you adieu.
    FrodoFraginsPo_gg
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,331
    Po_gg said:
    Po_gg said:
    I never got this "cost barrier to entry" complaint... 

    What's not to get?
    What's not the get in I don't get it? :)
    It's a different mindset (like political sides, or sticking to MMORPGs the "life starts at level cap" bullshit), which seems stupid to me and I can't side with it. Simple as that.

    I can accept it as a different opinion, just don't get it. It's like saying "I won't start reading Amber (Zelazny's series, 10 books) because of the barrier to entry is too costly".
    Just buy the first one to see if you even like it, lugnat...

    Similarly,
    Imagine selling your friend or significant other on this game. 
    I don't need to sell it, they can decide for themselves... Install, roll a character, maybe a second one as well to see a different starter area, and play to 20.
    If like it so far, runs well, no issues with the 4k text ( :) ), etc. then sub for a month. During that try a few more classes, play to 50, and if still likes the game, and want to continue, it's time to decide how to get the content.

    Ain't rocket science, not unless the mindset is "Nope, I won't set foot in the game until I have all the content beforehand". Which is stupid - at least imo.

    And it has nothing to do with the market, the competition, or how much content other games give for free, it's a general issue (hence I've brought a book example above).
    Most people research MMO's before joining em.  The gouging and confusing scheme LOTRO uses is not good in terms of attracting those people.  Especially when you add in the quest packs separate from the expansions they are in.

    It's as bad as those paradox games with 100 separate DLC packs.

    I thought SSG figured it all out during the pandemic when they were giving away the old expansions for free.  Apparently that's not the case.
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 6,393
    I find it funny that people talk about needing to have everything on day one, I mean, this is a legit question, do people walk into a game like GW2 and wonder how much it will cost to have everything in the game?

    Just to use an example. In GW2, they have Endless Harvesting Tools, that cost 20 dollars each, and you will need 3 of them, (One for each kind of node), but, I am going to bet, when people start the game, they  are not thinking about that, because it's going to be a while before they get to wanting endless tools, and you can get Harvesting tools in game to use easy enough. 

    But, it's still there, it's still a part of the game that you will need to buy if you want ALL the game.

    And then there is the Inventory Slots, Storage Expanders, Shared Slots, not to mention skins, weapon, Armor, Mount, Dyes, Mini's, and a slew of other things in the Store you will need to get if you want it ALL.

    But does anyone really think about that? Is that a barrier to entry?

    Why should it be such to play a game like DDO.

    You load up the game, log in, and get your free trial going, and If you like it, buy more as is convenient for you, or pay the sub for access to all the non-expansion content. If you don't like it, move on and play something else.

    I mean do people, before they start to play Dungeons and Dragons go "Ok, I need to own all the source material, Main Books, Splat Books, guides, Modules, all the Terrain, Miniatures, as well as a huge ass pile of dice, ONLY then can I play!" 

    Does anyone do this for any other game or hobby other than these specific MMO's?
    FrodoFraginsblamo2000
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

    I'm Famous! Slapshot has Me in his Signature. Check it out!
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,749
    edited January 14
    Yikes.  I wasn't trying to convince you or even say you were wrong.
    Similar on this end, wasn't convincing or offending, just clearing things up.
    Seeing all the paywalls ahead of you relative to similar products has a legitimate psychological effect that, as a business, you probably want to avoid if you want to maintain a healthy customer base.
    And Frodo's
    The gouging and confusing scheme LOTRO uses is not good in terms of attracting those people. 
    That's the point, I believe... they shouldn't care or attract those people. And not because of I don't agree with their "I want everything, for free, up front" views, but because their model ain't built with that mindset.
    (but otherwise sure, F those people :) )

    Opposed to most other games Turbine monetised the content mainly, which is (or should be) the f2p way instead of gameplay restrictions, since it brings in different kinda players.

    Using SWTOR as an example (just because it was already discussed, but could use any similar f2p models), they try to get into your wallet through inconveniences, try to make your gameplay annoying. As Frodo said above
    Crafting, using the AH and stuff really aren't worth the effort if you just want to level your characters.
    players mostly accept or endure those annoyances, playing through the story for free, and then move on to the next game with the "free content, just ignore the f2p annoyances" offer. The few who stays for the endgame will end up with a subscription, and that's where SWTOR starts to makes money.


    Turbine's model works differently. Once you were a subscriber, even just for a month, the gameplay annoyances are gone, and it's all about the content, the questing. If you're interested to continue, you need to pay (or grind out the Points). Even if it asks for money sooner than other games, I believe it's a more honest approach. -especially on the longer run, since after you've unlocked all the content, the game is kinda yours as a whole.


    Don't get me wrong, I ain't saying their model is perfect, especially since Mordor. They sure could use some changes. But not induced by, or towards to please and cater this "booo the entry barrier" mob.
    Gdemamiblamo2000Ungood
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 1,123
    Ungood said:
    I find it funny that people talk about needing to have everything on day one, I mean, this is a legit question, do people walk into a game like GW2 and wonder how much it will cost to have everything in the game?

    I hope Frodo explains why he gave a WTF to you.  Your argument makes perfect sense, as well as your analogies.

    I'm sure there are people who feel they need absolutely everything on day one, but I'm also sure that absolutely everything has caveats like in your examples.  They don't care about this that and this.

    Some people love housing or cosmetic outfits - neither does anything for me at all.  It comes down to to each their own.  But, most people intrinsically understand this.  

    If I'm just trying a game to see if it interests me, I just need the beginning area and enough content to show me the chardev systems and how robust the rpg mechanics systems are.

    I own almost all the game content in DDO, but there are whole expansions I avoid when I play.  One dungeon that is a pain in the ass jumping puzzle, I avoid the ToEE stuff, and basically have the same dungeons through the same paths that seem to provide the quickest path from 1 to 20 for me (as well as that instances that drop the blood things needed for racial reincarnations - I hate those instances with the mad god people but have to do them for the mats).  I play DDO a couple times a year plugging away at racial reincarnations.  I think I'm up to around 5 races completely done (with three each needed for the racial skill point).  And I hate it, but love the rpg systems of DDO.  Other people love the reincarnation to get more powerful over and over and over again.  

    I hate the traits or whatever the are called in LotRO where you kill 8 million of this mob in this zone, and find plagues, etc.  Really drives me nuts, especially at higher levels.  Some people love it.  Just like the investigations and cosmetic hunting in DCUO.  I just don't understand how anyone can enjoy that.  I wish they didn't because it forces me to have to do it to get more skill points, but I understand there are people who love shit like that. 

    Or the ridiculous guild system ESO has to join multiple guilds to have easy customers instead of one global AH, and requires me to download and install multiple addons just to find what I want to buy and then I got to look up how to get to that vendor, etc.  I hate it passionately.  But the people that love it really love it.

    I think the worst is no npc vendors like in Pathfinder Online, or games like it.  Or the crafting in SWG.  But the people that love that shit (crazy crafting and "completely player run economies") really, really passionately love those things as much as I hate them.

    That's a really long and convoluted way of explaining I completely agree with you and different people enjoy different things.
    Ungood
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 1,123
    I often kick myself for not buying into the $200 life long subscription for either LotRO and DDO.  What a deal that ended up being for people.
    UngoodStizzledPo_gg
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 6,393
    blamo2000 said:
    I often kick myself for not buying into the $200 life long subscription for either LotRO and DDO.  What a deal that ended up being for people.
    I do and I don't on this one. I think I would have leaned too heavy on that Lifetime Sub if I had gotten it, and been one of those pissy little whiners that cry that I should have gotten everything with my sub, that I bought 14 years ago, for 200 dollars), while instead, I just bought all the packs over time, as sales came up. It was it's own kind of mini game for me to try and get the best point bundle sales and get the best sales in the store, and maybe farm up those last 200 or so points and what have you.

    In the end, like you, I own more content than I will ever need to play, so much so that I can avoid entire packs (Like ToEE, which we both agree on what a pain that was) and still level 1 - 20 without needing to double up or farm quests for anything.

    So I don't see the problem people have with this game. When I started, I liked the game, so I bought a years Sub for like $100, wondering if I would play long enough to see it used up. The year ended, and so did my sub, and it was at that point, I moved from ViP to buying the content packs directly, because I thought "Well, looks like I'm gonna be here for the long haul"
    blamo2000
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

    I'm Famous! Slapshot has Me in his Signature. Check it out!
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