If you canceled VSOH because of SOE...

dragonace · May 2006

Very insightful post kravix.

Hopefully a good number of posters to this forum will take the time to read it.

jimmyman99 · May 2006

I second that, very nice post Kravix

Blackmoor · May 2006

Originally posted by kravix

Obviously you are not familiar with MS. VSOH was about their 4th or 5th foray into MMO's, none of the previous ever made it to lauch.

Obviously you are not familiar with MS either. Hate to break it you but the first 2 did launch they were called Asheron's Call and Asheron's Call 2. Both were sold back to the developer ( Turbine ) after they did not meet MS expectations.

Shoal · May 2006

If you think SOE is not in total control now, then learn2think.

Believing *anything* other than SOE is in total control exhibits a total lack of understanding about how business works in the real world.

And know this, SOE and Sigil *WILL* lie to everyone about everything in the public arena as it does not cost them anything in terms of liability. And by the time the FanBoiz and Suckers discover the Big Lie, it will be to late; SOE will have your money.

So, believe what you want, but my experience with SOE, and anyone connected with them, is that they cannot be trusted. Period.

InspGadgt · May 2006

Originally posted by Sorje

Originally posted by Senden

What does this mean? Well it means that this game will have to have appeal to console gamers too and generally speaking, you will find that console gamers would be put off by such things as vanguard. Whether the changes made for this are drastic, or minimum, it will in some form or another, effect this game. Now I know a lot of you are saying that SOE have no control over this game and tbh, nobody knows what is in the contract but think about it realistically, SOE own the servers and if you own the servers, you basically own the subscribers and i'm sure they could put quite a lot of pressure on Sigil once everything is running, to make the appropriate changes for the game to appeal to console gamers.

It's true that SOE could flex their "muscles" to get their will done, but I believe that Sigil won't be doing a foolish deal with SOE and thus can always appeal on the deal should things require it. SOE "owns" the gamers, aye but as Brad already said SOE has MMO games and I don't see it neccessary for SOE to pressure Sigil as Vanguard brings SOE money and they won't have to waste their own resources in developing the game. I don't see a downside in the deal between Sigil and SOE. It does benefit both of them, Sigil gets to do what they like doing and SOE gets money. Well, who knows but as long as the deal between them remains true and SOE won't pressure Sigil too much it's all going to end up just fine...but only time will tell that.

Reverse logic could easily be applied to this as well. SOE is a much bigger company with more lawyers at their disposal. I don't believe they would do anything as foolish as to enter into an agreement with Sigil and NOT have some control over the game. Especially with the amount of money they will be investing to market the game and run the servers.

jimmyman99 · May 2006

Originally posted by InspGadgt
Reverse logic could easily be applied to this as well. SOE is a much bigger company with more lawyers at their disposal. I don't believe they would do anything as foolish as to enter into an agreement with Sigil and NOT have some control over the game. Especially with the amount of money they will be investing to market the game and run the servers.

Thats not how it works in business world. A contract is a contract. If a company only produces a game, then it cannot change the contract and start influencing VSOH development. So far producing (IMO) means this "Heres the money, go make me a game, we will share the profit once its done". So it doesnt matter how big a company is or how many lawyers it has, if it says in the contract that SOE gives money and doesnt say about SOE telling programmers what to do, then SOE cannot do that. Its like if you hire a repairman to fix your boiler, and then repairman starts telling you how to program the next gen game u r working on. He has no power over that, hes higherd to fix the damn boiler, nothing more, nothing less.

So im not worried about SOE influencing VSOH right now. Im worried ONLY about SOE buying off Sigil when VSOH is released and it proves to be a smashing success. Becuase then they will start doing all those upgrades and mess up a perfectly good game. Thats what happend to EQ1.

Vyava · May 2006

Originally posted by jimmyman99
Thats not how it works in business world. A contract is a contract. If a company only produces a game, then it cannot change the contract and start influencing VSOH development. So far producing (IMO) means this "Heres the money, go make me a game, we will share the profit once its done". So it doesnt matter how big a company is or how many lawyers it has, if it says in the contract that SOE gives money and doesnt say about SOE telling programmers what to do, then SOE cannot do that. Its like if you hire a repairman to fix your boiler, and then repairman starts telling you how to program the next gen game u r working on. He has no power over that, hes higherd to fix the damn boiler, nothing more, nothing less.

So im not worried about SOE influencing VSOH right now. Im worried ONLY about SOE buying off Sigil when VSOH is released and it proves to be a smashing success. Becuase then they will start doing all those upgrades and mess up a perfectly good game. Thats what happend to EQ1.

There is an entire profession around breaking contracts you know. One side "influencing" the other to voluntarily leave the contract and such. A contract is a contract is a nice ideal, but hasn't existed like that for years. Contracts are invalidated constantly. Watch the business news or read business papers and you will see a constant stream of deals breakign post contract.

The second point is probably the biggest worry. Sigil says funding issues and the juggling of publisher hurt Vanguard. They sell it off entirely and use the casgh to start on thee next project. Not a happy sounding situation, but it has happened before in the MMO market cough EQ cough.

InspGadgt · May 2006

Originally posted by jimmyman99

Originally posted by InspGadgt
Reverse logic could easily be applied to this as well. SOE is a much bigger company with more lawyers at their disposal. I don't believe they would do anything as foolish as to enter into an agreement with Sigil and NOT have some control over the game. Especially with the amount of money they will be investing to market the game and run the servers.

Thats not how it works in business world. A contract is a contract. If a company only produces a game, then it cannot change the contract and start influencing VSOH development. So far producing (IMO) means this "Heres the money, go make me a game, we will share the profit once its done". So it doesnt matter how big a company is or how many lawyers it has, if it says in the contract that SOE gives money and doesnt say about SOE telling programmers what to do, then SOE cannot do that. Its like if you hire a repairman to fix your boiler, and then repairman starts telling you how to program the next gen game u r working on. He has no power over that, hes higherd to fix the damn boiler, nothing more, nothing less.

So im not worried about SOE influencing VSOH right now. Im worried ONLY about SOE buying off Sigil when VSOH is released and it proves to be a smashing success. Becuase then they will start doing all those upgrades and mess up a perfectly good game. Thats what happend to EQ1.

You missed my point entirely. I'm not saying SOE would break their contract so they could apply pressure and get some control of the game, I'm saying they never would have made it in the first place! To agree to a contract that gives them no control over something that they will be marketing and investing money into would be bad business on their part and I'm sure their contract negotiators would not allow it.

KorovaMB · May 2006

I think this whole thing is being approached from two extremes, where the truth will lie somewhere in the middle. While Sigil has contractually retained full developmental control, by the fact that SOE has invested financially in the game gives them some level of influence (notice I said 'influence', not 'control'). I doubt you would see them straight out break the contract, you might, however, see a more sublte form of manipulation. This would likely come in the form of reduced PR. Less advertising, less shelf space in stores, etc.

That is what "could" happen. As for what I think will happen........

Provided some level of success for Vanguard (which I believe they will have), SOE will not want to poison a profitable relationship. In addition, being good partners with Sigil will help them negotiate a further partnership with Sigil for their next title. Also, each Vanguard player represents an ability to lure them to another SOE game via Station pass, thus generating additional revenue for SOE.

The whole thing ends up having less to do with law, and more to do with good business sense.

InspGadgt · May 2006

Originally posted by KorovaMB

I think this whole thing is being approached from two extremes, where the truth will lie somewhere in the middle. While Sigil has contractually retained full developmental control, by the fact that SOE has invested financially in the game gives them some level of influence (notice I said 'influence', not 'control'). I doubt you would see them straight out break the contract, you might, however, see a more sublte form of manipulation. This would likely come in the form of reduced PR. Less advertising, less shelf space in stores, etc.
That is what "could" happen. As for what I think will happen........
Provided some level of success for Vanguard (which I believe they will have), SOE will not want to poison a profitable relationship. In addition, being good partners with Sigil will help them negotiate a further partnership with Sigil for their next title. Also, each Vanguard player represents an ability to lure them to another SOE game via Station pass, thus generating additional revenue for SOE.
The whole thing ends up having less to do with law, and more to do with good business sense.

That's the thing though...I and many like me cannot accept that these are facts just because Sigil and SOE said they were. We've been lied to too many times to take them at their word. I do not believe SOE would strike a contract as was outlined. With their money and servers invested it would be bad business sense/practice to make such a deal.

Trystan365 · May 2006

I'm one of those who, when I heard of the SOE deal, thought Brad McQuaid, et al, had sold their souls. I've since done some research. I'm not gonna tell all of you what I found out. Do that yourselves. Do the research, find truth.

I've changed my mind and instead of being lukewarm, as I was before the deal, or vehemently opposed, as I was right after that news, I am stoked about this game.

Do yourselves a favor...make a decision based upon facts and not with a jerk of the knee.

InspGadgt · May 2006

I'm not making any knee jerk decisions. I haven't even decided yet if I will play the game or not with SOEs involvement. I do however dispute the "facts" as so many have called them. Unless you get to look at the actual contract between the two companies then there's no way to know that any information they post on the internet or say in an interview is fact. It's really a matter of if you believe their statements or not.

Trystan365 · May 2006

Actually, many folks havemade knee jerk reactions. The fact that you haven't is a credit to you.

In the research I've done...so much, it probably wasn't healthy

, I found many posts from a variety of folks. I've been to sites that have video clips of Brad and, I think, Raph Koster, talking to the press about the game.

Goddess, I'm coming off as a fanbois.

I need to wash.

Tarwater · May 2006

People keep talking about control issues, but I was under the impression that it wasn't a control issue... it was effectively putting money in Sony's pockets, which was the problem.

And some people don't want to do that. Flexing one's muscle as a consumer is wonderful. Money talks, and is often the only way to change things, if one is dissatisfied.

Others made the comment that since Sony had so many lawyers, that Sigil wouldn't enter in an agreement, unless the contract was rock solid. You know what that tells me? The first half of the sentence... Sony has so many lawyers. Which means that contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on. If there's a loophole to gain control, Sony can find it. Not saying they will, but they can.

LightSlayer · May 2006

Incredible how people are so ignorant that Sigil is the same as SOE; pretty unintelligent to compare the two, I myself will be trying it no matter if SOE is involved because all they are doing is distributing it and putting no hands onto the development of it. I laugh at everyone who won't play this, you guys can miss out but I will be playing.

InspGadgt · May 2006

Originally posted by Trystan365
Actually, many folks havemade knee jerk reactions. The fact that you haven't is a credit to you.

In the research I've done...so much, it probably wasn't healthy, I found many posts from a variety of folks. I've been to sites that have video clips of Brad and, I think, Raph Koster, talking to the press about the game.

Goddess, I'm coming off as a fanbois.

I need to wash.

Again it comes down to if you believe them or not. I cannot...I've seen SOE lie or at the very least obscure the truth far too many times to believe anything they say. Vanguard may turn out to be the best game in the world despite SOEs meddling...that would be great. Would I play it? Maybe...then again it may not turn out so great either.

Droigan · May 2006

Originally posted by InspGadgt
Again it comes down to if you believe them or not. I cannot...I've seen SOE lie or at the very least obscure the truth far too many times to believe anything they say. Vanguard may turn out to be the best game in the world despite SOEs meddling...that would be great. Would I play it? Maybe...then again it may not turn out so great either.

Well SOE are not the ones who are saying things. It is Sigil and they are not SOE.

SOE has the rights to publishing. Sigil owns the Intellectual properties of the game. In other words, Sigil are in control of the creative processes of the game, including for instance when the expansions come out and what is in them. So SOE can meddle much less with the game than Microsoft, and also Microsoft WANTED to meddle with the game, which Sigil did not want to do, and the parties decided it was mutually best to split up

So, if the game is great, or if the game sucks. It is all up to Sigil, not SOE.

InspGadgt · May 2006

Sigil or Sony...I don't believe either one of them in this case. There is more going on in their relationship then they are telling us. Will that effect Vanguard? Only time will tell.

jimmyman99 · May 2006

Judging from the posts, I think the whole SOE deal has split VSOH fans into 3 camps:

1st camp doesnt care about the news and most of them will likely purchase/preorder the game.

2nd camp hates SOE so much, they wouldnt put a dime into SOE pocket, even if it means hurting Sigil becuase Sigil and SOE will be sharing profits from the game. These people will most likely not buy the game at all, even if VSOH has great comments after release

3rd camp are people who were in 1st camp, but have doubts after announced SOE deal. They are afraid that after release, Sigill will sell out to SOE and VSOH will go through standard SOE practice of "upgrading" it. These people will struggle to make a decision to purchase VSOH or not.

I put myself into the 3rd camp. I will most likely purchase this game after release ( unless there is a storm of negative comments during open beta or release ). but any major change that will involve SOE... I will reconsider my purchasing plans.

Regarding contracts... I admit I am not familiar with big business, nor am I involved directly in small business ( I work for a small telecom company as a techsupport/networking guy ), but from what I see, people and businesses DO value contracts and they do NOT break them. I dunno if thats the case in a big corporate world, but from what ive seen till now, I dont have any worries about SOE breaking their contract to try and take even some control over VSOH. Sure they have some influence, but not over the game itself. More like, how their servers interruct with the game, operational things. Yes, businesses do break contracts, or abuse them, or ignore them.. thats why they get their asses sued. You CAN break contract without dire consequences ONLY if the other party doesnt mind ( thats what happend with Sigil/Microsoft contract i believe ).

InspGadgt · May 2006

Oddly enough I too do tech support/networking for a telecom company...

I'd put myself closer to category 3 then anything else but I'm not believing anything I read from SOE/Sigil until I see the game out...the proof is in the pudding so to speak. So I'll probably give it a try despite my intense dislike of SOE.

At our company I see contracts broken all the time. Not by our company but by former employees. Our employment contract has a non-competitve clause that forbids them from working for any competitor within a year of leaving our company. I've seen that broken so many times it would make your head hurt. And most times they get away with it because it's not worth our time to chase after them.

AgtSmith · May 2006

Originally posted by jimmyman99

If you decided to NOT buy VSOH becuase of the deal with SOE read this.

First of all, some time passed since the breaking news about Sigil and SOE deal, so people had some time to think over logicaly without emotions all the information Brad (Sigil) and John (SOE) gave us. So far we have the following facts:
- Sigil bought back whatever rights Microsoft had to VSOH, which means Sigil has full control over Vanguard (including development). According to Brad, that money did NOT come from SOE. Sigil has more control over Vanguard then before the deal with Microsoft. This split was amicable and agreed mutually by MS and Sigil.

- SOE will produce Vanguard for Sigil, meaning SOE will be responcible for CSR, servers and some other minor stuff. Basically, SOE will provide support to Sigil. SOE will NOT have any say in game development whatsoever. Sigil maintains full control over VSOH.

Ok, now that I got basic facts, time to think thos over. My first reaction to these news was distrust and even cancelation of my purchasing plans. But I had some time to think, I read MMORPG forums, read official forums, read what Brad posted and I realized that my first reaction was purely emotional, not logical. If you think logically, Sigil is in a better position to control VSOH now then before. MS has no say in development as it did before, and SOE doesnt have a say in it either.

I understand that SOE has a very negative history of game development. EQ was great but when SOE bought it, it steadily went down. EQ2 didnt turn out as good as Id hope (it was OK, but not great). SWG... well, why disturb an open wound? Planetside - several questionable moves and bad updates (not as bad IMO but judging from playerbase, those updates werent that much liked). So having a company with this kind of record, one can fall under temptation to NOT give a dime or even a cent to SOE. I understand that. I was about to do the same. But you have to remember one thing, Sigil is not SOE, nor is SOE milking Sigil. Sigil is an independent company, and we should support it. Sigil seems to be trying to make a different type of MMORPG, why would we want to kill it before it even forms if everyone is sick of the cookie cutter standard that most MMORPGs seem to follow? Why choke an independent developer just because their servers and CSR will be handled by another company? Its like saying you wont shop in WallMart just becuase they sell CocaCola.

My advice to all of you who canceled their plans to purchase VSOH - dont give up yet. Brad said that SOE will NOT influence development of VSOH, nor will Sigil sell out to SOE. Seeing as there is nothing unique on the MMORPG market right now, give Sigil a chance to develop something unique.

To conclude this, I really hope Sigil stays true to their pledge and I hope Brad's words arent made of wind. I hope VSOH is what it claims to be and maybe, just maybe I will have another gret MMORPG to play. We should support ANY company that has new ideas, doesnt scam people and doesnt break promises. Dont act with your emotions, but your logic.

PS: Please forgive my grammar. No matter how many years I live in Canada it seems that English will never trully be my first language. Whatever I do, my instict often takes over and I start writing in my native tongue with english words. The curse of the multi-linguist.

SoE in the money chain = screw whatever rpoduct it is. And not just SoE - is all of Sony IMHO. Sony has shown they will stab thier customers in the back to get a buck and, IMHO. deserves NO patronage, period.

Erom · May 2006

I'm going to wait. If after a year all the controversy has died down and I still see great things about it, then I will be willing to give a trial run a try a try.

I too am in camp three and am perfectly willing to stay with Ryzom for a year.

Wartorn[SC] · May 2006

I will give SOH a try. Honestly what do I have to lose...

$50 is not much if you spend a lot more than that during an evening of drinking... in both cases you could end up with a bad headache.

The SOH headache will be less damaging though.

just my 2cents.

qotsa · May 2006

Originally posted by AgtSmith
SoE in the money chain = screw whatever rpoduct it is. And not just SoE - is all of Sony IMHO. Sony has shown they will stab thier customers in the back to get a buck and, IMHO. deserves NO patronage, period.

I've been kind of defending this whole deal. But your post struck a nerve with me and something that recently happened. I was filling out the form for a 21 day trial of EQ I found on the web. It asked for billing info so I hit cancel. I went out 10 days later and bought the Titanium pack. 30 day trial on the box. I set up my account and it said that since I had the 21 day trial active (even though I hit cancel), I would be charged on the 7th of June. Giving me 20 days out of the 30 day trial on the box. I figured fine whatever. No dice...I was charged the very next day. Customer service at SOE basically told me buying thier product cancel any and all trial periods. I felt the game should have come with lube.

Salvatoris · May 2006

Even with a cooler head, I still know I will not buy Vanguard because I would have to deal with SOE in order to play. When i quit SWG I had honestly had enough of dealing with SOE, and i will never do it again. No matter who develops a game, or how much interest I have in the franchise it is based on, if SOE has any involvement I won't buy it. I have no desire to get tangled up with them again.

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