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CD Projekt RED Responds to Game Informer's Epileptic Trigger PSA Article | MMORPG.com

SystemSystem Member UncommonPosts: 12,599
edited December 2020 in News & Features Discussion

imageCD Projekt RED Responds to Game Informer's Epileptic Trigger PSA Article | MMORPG.com

CD Projekt RED have responded to a Game Informer article which pointed out some epileptic triggers in Cyberpunk 2077.

Read the full story here


Comments

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 6,005
    I'm not sure how QA doesn't also check for seizure triggers in games. Seems like something that should never get close to a customer
    foppoteeGdemamiseraphis79ZenJellyHatefullMendelAsm0deus
  • bwwianakievbwwianakiev Member UncommonPosts: 119
    edited December 2020


    I'm not sure how QA doesn't also check for seizure triggers in games. Seems like something that should never get close to a customer



    I have epilepsy and it's a lot more complicated than "Flashing lights equals bad". Each person becomes triggered by different frequencies and some people are not photosensitive at all. Some get triggered by smells or sounds. Some by all of these. I have had one of those strobe machines used on me to test my brain and the frequency AND intensity they had to use was super high, so high that even if I closed my eyes I could not stop it and it was actual torture. Every human being, at a certain frequency/duration would have a seizure, some just have a lower threshold. Most people that have epilepsy, know what triggers them or what they can or cannot do. To add, movies can also cause them. I heard one of the twilight movies caused a siezure in a guy during the birth season and he sued. They then had to put a warning and tone down the flashing lights. But tbh, that's on the guy. For me, dark rooms and big screens with bad refresh rates equals more twitching so I don't really go to the movies like that.
    [Deleted User]foppoteeDarkpigeon[Deleted User]KyleranZenJellystrawhat0981[Deleted User]NeoyoshiHatefulland 2 others.
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 6,005
    edited December 2020


    I'm not sure how QA doesn't also check for seizure triggers in games. Seems like something that should never get close to a customer



    I have epilepsy and it's a lot more complicated than "Flashing lights equals bad". Each person becomes triggered by different frequencies and some people are not photosensitive at all. Some get triggered by smells or sounds. Some by all of these. I have had one of those strobe machines used on me to test my brain and the frequency AND intensity they had to use was super high, so high that even if I closed my eyes I could not stop it and it was actual torture. Every human being, at a certain frequency/duration would have a seizure, some just have a lower threshold. Most people that have epilepsy, know what triggers them or what they can or cannot do. To add, movies can also cause them. I heard one of the twilight movies caused a siezure in a guy during the birth season and he sued. They then had to put a warning and tone down the flashing lights. But tbh, that's on the guy. For me, dark rooms and big screens with bad refresh rates equals more twitching so I don't really go to the movies like that.
    I'm referring to the obvious triggers that would affect many.

    Marvel Heroes had such a trigger in the launcher for a brief period of time.  It seems like avoiding flashing lights and colorblind mode should be pretty standard for most devs.
    Post edited by FrodoFragins on
    DarkpigeonGdemamiZenJelly[Deleted User]Hatefull
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 7,989
    edited December 2020
    g0dl355 said:
    There's alot of people latching onto this because they wanted the game to fail already because it didn't cater to the progressive crowd like Last of Us 2.

    That being said, ya it was a stupid idea to include the flashing for that particular quest. Why give the blue checkmarks any ammo at all?
    The issue is likely being blown out of proportion, but I stopped taking you seriously when you unironically used the term "blue checkmarks" as an insult. Oh, no! The big bad game journalists giving this game over 9/10 review scores clearly have it out for the game! Go back to Heelzvbabyface's comment section where you belong.
    foppotee[Deleted User][Deleted User]ZenJelly[Deleted User]Hatefull
  • shavashava Member UncommonPosts: 324
    There has been a broadcast/game professional grade test for photosensitive triggers for over a quarter century.

    My guess is that Polish law, unlike American law and liability, doesn't require it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harding_test

    My guess is, they didn't screen at all. I'd love to hear differently from CDPR, but I expect we will hear crickets.

    It's not a hard thing to do.

    It doesn't catch everything, but it catches most. Photosensitivity is a bit ideopathic (individual) but most triggers fall in a general range which is why neuorologists can use that general range to try to induce a seizure.
    [Deleted User]GdemamiScotKyleranZenJellyHatefull
  • RhimeRhime Member UncommonPosts: 301
    I thought the game releases on the 10th? Am I wrong?
  • BizkitNLBizkitNL Member RarePosts: 2,546

    shava said:

    There has been a broadcast/game professional grade test for photosensitive triggers for over a quarter century.



    My guess is that Polish law, unlike American law and liability, doesn't require it.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harding_test



    My guess is, they didn't screen at all. I'd love to hear differently from CDPR, but I expect we will hear crickets.



    It's not a hard thing to do.



    It doesn't catch everything, but it catches most. Photosensitivity is a bit ideopathic (individual) but most triggers fall in a general range which is why neuorologists can use that general range to try to induce a seizure.



    All that entails is having a big message on screen warning for the possibility of seizures. Which happens to be already included in the EULA.

    Actually doing something to minimize or eradicate the possibility of a seizure is up to the developer's discretion. Which, by looking at their reply, is in the works.

    Which is awesome, considering this condition affects...what...1, maybe 2% of the population?
    ZenJellyHatefull
    10
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,879
    edited December 2020
    BizkitNL said:





    Which is awesome, considering this condition affects...what...1, maybe 2% of the population?
    Epilepsy affects 1.3% of the US population according to one source, however the number of those triggered by photosensitivity is 3% of that total and is more common in children, often diminishing with age.

    There are also many recommended ways to self-manage the condition to reduce the likelihood and severity of seizures.

    So yes, it does seem like putting epilepsy warnings in video games is a bit like labels on coffee that it might be hot, lighters can burn you or bathtubs can be a drowning hazard to children.

    Oh yeah, as Frank Zappa once sang, "watch out where those huskies go, don't you eat that yellow snow."

    https://www.epilepsy.com/learn/triggers-seizures/photosensitivity-and-seizures
    ScotZenJelly[Deleted User]Hatefull

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  • CuddleheartCuddleheart Member UncommonPosts: 391
    Aeander said:
    g0dl355 said:
    There's alot of people latching onto this because they wanted the game to fail already because it didn't cater to the progressive crowd like Last of Us 2.

    That being said, ya it was a stupid idea to include the flashing for that particular quest. Why give the blue checkmarks any ammo at all?
    The issue is likely being blown out of proportion, but I stopped taking you seriously when you unironically used the term "blue checkmarks" as an insult. Oh, no! The big bad game journalists giving this game over 9/10 review scores clearly have it out for the game! Go back to Heelzvbabyface's comment section where you belong.


    ...Remember that thread when you guys asked why nobody wants to participate in this community?
    ZenJellyHatefull[Deleted User]
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    My eyes are very sensitive to light to the point i prefer it dark most of the time.Those blue light glasses don't do squat and there is at least imo an actual reason aside from being diagnosed with Epilepsy.

    I had that light show test with the needle helmet sticking into my head and it was sort of very cumbersome to say the least.

    I cannot scientifically or factually pinpoint WHAT in games causes issues but i do know from a few games i could definitely feel a strange sort of uncomfortable feeling from the way the graphics worked.

    The first game i really noticed it was inside of Wildstar,something the way the lighting and graphics were done gave me real headaches.I do know for fact at least with me is enough fact for me lol that if the camera in game is too close behind something,yoru character or something else it causes big issues.So for example another game i noticed it a lot was within Wizard 101 because the camera was too close behind the character.

    So even first person view is more cumbersome for my eyes/headache than panning out into third person view.I akin it to be exactly like if you sat too close to the monitor instead of the typical 18-24 inches away.You could even try moving your eyes in real close to the monitor and back out and likely notice it.
    KyleranBruceYee

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,011
    Wizardry said:
    My eyes are very sensitive to light to the point i prefer it dark most of the time.Those blue light glasses don't do squat and there is at least imo an actual reason aside from being diagnosed with Epilepsy.

    I had that light show test with the needle helmet sticking into my head and it was sort of very cumbersome to say the least.

    I cannot scientifically or factually pinpoint WHAT in games causes issues but i do know from a few games i could definitely feel a strange sort of uncomfortable feeling from the way the graphics worked.

    The first game i really noticed it was inside of Wildstar,something the way the lighting and graphics were done gave me real headaches.I do know for fact at least with me is enough fact for me lol that if the camera in game is too close behind something,yoru character or something else it causes big issues.So for example another game i noticed it a lot was within Wizard 101 because the camera was too close behind the character.

    So even first person view is more cumbersome for my eyes/headache than panning out into third person view.I akin it to be exactly like if you sat too close to the monitor instead of the typical 18-24 inches away.You could even try moving your eyes in real close to the monitor and back out and likely notice it.
    I would be interested to here from anyone who has problems like this what they think of VR headsets? I always thought this might exacerbate such issues?
    Hatefull
  • NeoyoshiNeoyoshi Member RarePosts: 1,383
    All the Assassin's Creed games have epilepsy and photosensitive warnings in their games; did any of those games get this type of media attention?
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  • mklinicmklinic Member RarePosts: 2,009
    1. Journalist raises concern.
    2. Developer responds on immediate and longer term efforts to address concern.

    I get the conversation about 'how did this even get by QA', but the fact is it did, much like any other bug that gets out into the wild. Seems like an example of the responsiveness many claim to want in a studio.
    IselinKyleran[Deleted User]

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    edited December 2020
    mklinic said:
    1. Journalist raises concern.
    2. Developer responds on immediate and longer term efforts to address concern.

    I get the conversation about 'how did this even get by QA', but the fact is it did, much like any other bug that gets out into the wild. Seems like an example of the responsiveness many claim to want in a studio.
    It's more than raising a concern: she actually had a grand mal seizure herself going into the braindance game sequence.

    CDPR acted quickly and responsively because it's not a warning about potential problems but a case where it has actually happened already.
    Gdemami
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  • mklinicmklinic Member RarePosts: 2,009
    edited December 2020
    Iselin said:
    It's more than raising a concern: she actually had a grand mal seizure herself going into the braindance game sequence.

    CDPR acted quickly and responsively because it's not a warning about potential problems but a case where it has actually happened already.
    I'm not sure that meaningfully changes the point of what I said, but if it helps, I'll rephrase it:

    1. A [thing happened] thus identifying/raising a concern
    2. Developer responds on immediate and longer term efforts to address concern.

    We can assume it was not the developers intent for [thing happened] to occur and is effectively a bug/unintended result. 

    The developer seems to have been quick to respond and communicate their intent to remedy vs. the alternate path where they could have left it something along the lines of "it's in our EULA, suck it!" (paraphrased).

    I suppose anyone could take issue with the assumption being made, but at that point, we would just be arguing what we believe to be most likely barring the reveal of some insider information stating one way or the other.


    -mklinic

    "Do something right, no one remembers.
    Do something wrong, no one forgets"
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  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 6,005
    When I was in high school, arcades were still popular.  there was this kid who would go a lot and sometimes get a seizure.  People would shove his wallet in his mouth to keep him from hurting himself.

    It was pretty freaky the first time I saw it honestly.
    BruceYee
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,503

    Scot said:


    Wizardry said:

    My eyes are very sensitive to light to the point i prefer it dark most of the time.Those blue light glasses don't do squat and there is at least imo an actual reason aside from being diagnosed with Epilepsy.



    I had that light show test with the needle helmet sticking into my head and it was sort of very cumbersome to say the least.



    I cannot scientifically or factually pinpoint WHAT in games causes issues but i do know from a few games i could definitely feel a strange sort of uncomfortable feeling from the way the graphics worked.



    The first game i really noticed it was inside of Wildstar,something the way the lighting and graphics were done gave me real headaches.I do know for fact at least with me is enough fact for me lol that if the camera in game is too close behind something,yoru character or something else it causes big issues.So for example another game i noticed it a lot was within Wizard 101 because the camera was too close behind the character.



    So even first person view is more cumbersome for my eyes/headache than panning out into third person view.I akin it to be exactly like if you sat too close to the monitor instead of the typical 18-24 inches away.You could even try moving your eyes in real close to the monitor and back out and likely notice it.



    I would be interested to here from anyone who has problems like this what they think of VR headsets? I always thought this might exacerbate such issues?



    I do not have epilepsy however, I get debilitating migraine headaches under the right (or very wrong to be accurate) circumstances and I found recently that if I wear a VR headset for too long a time (over an hour) it will bring on a headache to the point of vomiting from pain. Me being curious and semi-stupid when it comes to pain had to try it three times to make sure it was the headset. It was. I can game for a full day (did so too back in SWG days) and not have issue like that.

    So if you believe my unqualified back yard science experiment (My degree is in business) then yes, I believe you are correct that at least as far as headaches are concerned VR can induce/amplify them. No idea on epilepsy but I would recommend getting a professional involved if anyone wants to lab rat themselves.
    Scot

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  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    I'm not sure how QA doesn't also check for seizure triggers in games. Seems like something that should never get close to a customer

    "QA?  For a video game?  What's that?"  I can imagine many game developers having a similar reaction.  The solution seems to be an additional warning on the box.  Totally inadequate and may endanger some lives.  A game is supposed to be entertainment, not something that can cause death.

    The lack of QA seems to be an industry-wide epidemic.  Maybe on par with Covid, and easily predating it.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Mendel said:
    I'm not sure how QA doesn't also check for seizure triggers in games. Seems like something that should never get close to a customer

    "QA?  For a video game?  What's that?"  I can imagine many game developers having a similar reaction.  The solution seems to be an additional warning on the box.  Totally inadequate and may endanger some lives.  A game is supposed to be entertainment, not something that can cause death.

    The lack of QA seems to be an industry-wide epidemic.  Maybe on par with Covid, and easily predating it.



    The real QA starts in about 2 hours.

    There is no game studio QA department that can be as efficient at finding bugs and balance problems as the millions playing it in all kinds of weird ways.

    We're the ones who find he vast majority of problems when we play the games and that always happens after release.

    MendelScot
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    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • bonzoso21bonzoso21 Member UncommonPosts: 380
    I've seen sooo many online comments by people pissed off that the developers have to "change their vision" to accommodate the "tiny percentage of people affected by this" and that "people with epilepsy should accept that videogames aren't meant for them" ... as if the pattern of flashing lights for this game sequence is integral to everyone's experience with this 50-hour game. 

    Yes, folks with epilepsy who know they are photosensitive to these types of displays should maybe avoid this  game, but from what I've read, the pattern they included is dangerously close to the pattern used by doctors to purposely induce seizures in controlled environments. It's good they're changing this as soon as possible.

    I swear, some people get legitimately angry when they find out they can't bring a snack with peanuts somewhere because someone has a serious allergy, like they're so put out by it. It's crazy how many people wear it on their sleeves like a badge of honor that they don't care about anyone but themselves even when it comes to the most trivial things.

    Kyleran[Deleted User]
  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    Iselin said:
    Mendel said:
    I'm not sure how QA doesn't also check for seizure triggers in games. Seems like something that should never get close to a customer

    "QA?  For a video game?  What's that?"  I can imagine many game developers having a similar reaction.  The solution seems to be an additional warning on the box.  Totally inadequate and may endanger some lives.  A game is supposed to be entertainment, not something that can cause death.

    The lack of QA seems to be an industry-wide epidemic.  Maybe on par with Covid, and easily predating it.



    The real QA starts in about 2 hours.

    There is no game studio QA department that can be as efficient at finding bugs and balance problems as the millions playing it in all kinds of weird ways.

    We're the ones who find he vast majority of problems when we play the games and that always happens after release.


    Not finding a potential seizure hazard/condition indicates to me that this game hasn't undergone even a rudimentary QA evaluation.

    But, you're right about the real QA starting once the customer gets their hands on the product.  There are automated tools to catch things like this (look at PEAT).  QA is about ensuring the delivered software works as intended, assuming there was a testing plan.  What are the chances that Use cases were developed and tested?



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,011
    Hatefull said:

    Scot said:


    Wizardry said:

    My eyes are very sensitive to light to the point i prefer it dark most of the time.Those blue light glasses don't do squat and there is at least imo an actual reason aside from being diagnosed with Epilepsy.



    I had that light show test with the needle helmet sticking into my head and it was sort of very cumbersome to say the least.



    I cannot scientifically or factually pinpoint WHAT in games causes issues but i do know from a few games i could definitely feel a strange sort of uncomfortable feeling from the way the graphics worked.



    The first game i really noticed it was inside of Wildstar,something the way the lighting and graphics were done gave me real headaches.I do know for fact at least with me is enough fact for me lol that if the camera in game is too close behind something,yoru character or something else it causes big issues.So for example another game i noticed it a lot was within Wizard 101 because the camera was too close behind the character.



    So even first person view is more cumbersome for my eyes/headache than panning out into third person view.I akin it to be exactly like if you sat too close to the monitor instead of the typical 18-24 inches away.You could even try moving your eyes in real close to the monitor and back out and likely notice it.



    I would be interested to here from anyone who has problems like this what they think of VR headsets? I always thought this might exacerbate such issues?



    I do not have epilepsy however, I get debilitating migraine headaches under the right (or very wrong to be accurate) circumstances and I found recently that if I wear a VR headset for too long a time (over an hour) it will bring on a headache to the point of vomiting from pain. Me being curious and semi-stupid when it comes to pain had to try it three times to make sure it was the headset. It was. I can game for a full day (did so too back in SWG days) and not have issue like that.

    So if you believe my unqualified back yard science experiment (My degree is in business) then yes, I believe you are correct that at least as far as headaches are concerned VR can induce/amplify them. No idea on epilepsy but I would recommend getting a professional involved if anyone wants to lab rat themselves.
    Many people have complained of headaches with VR, it did occur to me that this might be related to the issues people have with light sensitivity on normal screens and may bring on a condition that they never realised they had. My advice, if something is nearly making you puke ditch it.
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,556
    They didn't check for seizure triggers cause they were too busy creating promo adverts with Keanu Reeves.
    Kyleran
  • AstropuyoAstropuyo Member RarePosts: 2,178
    Should be noted now this doesn't matter as the six people who still play this game are all fine and currently experiencing frame rate drops only seen in ps2 dynasty warriors 1 games.
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