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Soulbound apparently took 150-350k Coronavirus Payroll Protection loan a month AFTER laying off all

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  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,445
    I knew it was more than the 15 lols you said you contributed to my tally of lols. Why I earned 4 today alone.
    Chamber of Chains
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited November 2020
    cheyane said:
    I knew it was more than the 15 lols you said you contributed to my tally of lols. Why I earned 4 today alone.
    Why lols?

    ...because there is no reason to believe there was any fraud committed, if you actually bothered to look up what the program is about and how it works, you would realize how broad it is and whether you currently have employees or not is irrelevant - you can apply as well as self-employed.


    Yet, you still keep going on...
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,445
    edited November 2020
    SBA will allow lenders to rely on certifications of the borrower in order to determine eligibility of the borrower and use of loan proceeds and to rely on specified documents provided by the borrower to determine qualifying loan amount and eligibility for loan forgiveness. Lenders must comply with the applicable lender obligations set forth in this interim final rule, but will be held harmless for borrowers' failure to comply with program criteria; remedies for borrower violations or fraud are separately addressed in this interim final rule.

    Perhaps you should follow your own advice and read.


    You are eligible for a PPP loan if you have 500 or fewer employees whose principal place of residence is in the United States, or are a business that operates in a certain industry and meet the applicable SBA employee-based size standards for that industry

    You must also submit such documentation as is necessary to establish eligibility such as payroll processor records, payroll tax filings, or Form 1099-MISC, or income and expenses from a sole proprietorship. For borrowers that do not have any such documentation, the borrower must provide other supporting documentation, such as bank records, sufficient to demonstrate the qualifying payroll amount.


    S. WHAT HAPPENS IF PPP LOAN FUNDS ARE MISUSED?

    If you use PPP funds for unauthorized purposes, SBA will direct you to repay those amounts. If you knowingly use the funds for unauthorized purposes, you will be subject to additional liability such as charges for fraud. If one of your shareholders, members, or partners uses PPP funds for unauthorized purposes, SBA will have recourse against the shareholder, member, or partner for the unauthorized use



    See your institutions are not that incompetent or stupid.

    Gdemami[Deleted User]Ungood
    Chamber of Chains
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited November 2020
    cheyane said:
    SBA will allow lenders to rely on certifications of the borrower in order to determine eligibility of the borrower and use of loan proceeds and to rely on specified documents provided by the borrower to determine qualifying loan amount and eligibility for loan forgiveness. Lenders must comply with the applicable lender obligations set forth in this interim final rule, but will be held harmless for borrowers' failure to comply with program criteria; remedies for borrower violations or fraud are separately addressed in this interim final rule.

    Perhaps you should follow your own advice and read.


    You are eligible for a PPP loan if you have 500 or fewer employees whose principal place of residence is in the United States, or are a business that operates in a certain industry and meet the applicable SBA employee-based size standards for that industry

    You must also submit such documentation as is necessary to establish eligibility such as payroll processor records, payroll tax filings, or Form 1099-MISC, or income and expenses from a sole proprietorship. For borrowers that do not have any such documentation, the borrower must provide other supporting documentation, such as bank records, sufficient to demonstrate the qualifying payroll amount.


    S. WHAT HAPPENS IF PPP LOAN FUNDS ARE MISUSED?

    If you use PPP funds for unauthorized purposes, SBA will direct you to repay those amounts. If you knowingly use the funds for unauthorized purposes, you will be subject to additional liability such as charges for fraud. If one of your shareholders, members, or partners uses PPP funds for unauthorized purposes, SBA will have recourse against the shareholder, member, or partner for the unauthorized use



    See your institutions are not that incompetent or stupid.

    ...and another lol.

    Moot point trying to have a sensible discussion.
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,445
    edited November 2020
    "You must also submit such documentation as is necessary to establish eligibility such as payroll processor records, payroll tax filings, or Form 1099-MISC, or income and expenses from a sole proprietorship. For borrowers that do not have any such documentation, the borrower must provide other supporting documentation, such as bank records, sufficient to demonstrate the qualifying payroll amount."

    How did they provide this when they laid off their employees?

    From what I recall wasn't this loan given for the specific reason that employers not lay off their workers? I thought this was one of the key requirements of this loan.

    So it does not make a lot of sense for an employer to seek this relief after they laid off their workers and for this not to be a shown as intent to abuse the loan.

    I know you said you could be self employed and apply for this loan but I doubt that was the category of relief Soubound used since it was for payroll protection. You have to have employees that are eligible for payroll to qualify and Soulbound is a company not a self employed individual.
    Gdemami
    Chamber of Chains
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,314
    cheyane said:
    "You must also submit such documentation as is necessary to establish eligibility such as payroll processor records, payroll tax filings, or Form 1099-MISC, or income and expenses from a sole proprietorship. For borrowers that do not have any such documentation, the borrower must provide other supporting documentation, such as bank records, sufficient to demonstrate the qualifying payroll amount."

    How did they provide this when they laid off their employees?

    From what I recall wasn't this loan given for the specific reason that employers not lay off their workers? I thought this was one of the key requirements of this loan.

    So it does not make a lot of sense for an employer to seek this relief after they laid off their workers and for this not to be a shown as intent to abuse the loan.

    I know you said you could be self employed and apply for this loan but I doubt that was the category of relief Soubound used since it was for payroll protection. You have to have employees that are eligible for payroll to qualify and Soulbound is a company not a self employed individual.
    I think they decide the loan based on how many employees you had before Covid struck, which would mean Soulbound Studios qualifies.

    Also there's no requirement that you don't fire of everyone. Companies that don't fire people will eventually get the loan forgiven - for them it's free money to support during Covid - whereas companies like Soulbound Studios that fire people will eventually be asked to pay it back with interest. But there's no ban on firing people.

    As long as Soulbound studios only uses the loan money for acceptable costs I think they could have legitimately taken it and can legitimately use it, but for those costs only.

    It seems suspicious when they take the loan after firing everyone: Do they still have legitimate costs? But it's only something that should likely be investigated if and when CoE eventually fails to make loan payments, not something that would necessarily be illegal.
    cheyane[Deleted User]
     
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,445
    edited November 2020
    So they have to pay it back with interest since the loan will not be forgiven, okay that makes sense.

    However the fact that they had no employees whose payroll needed to be protected does mean ipso facto they have no intent to use this loan for the purposes it was given.

    Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

    Of course you're right that this will only be investigated at the loan forgiveness stage.

    It is no wonder that your illustrious ex president hardly paid any taxes.

    I know @Gdemami you think you're terribly clever but as a tax payer doesn't it bother you that Soulbound just scammed this relief program that would have served others who truly needed it.
    Gdemami
    Chamber of Chains
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,445
    "Unline most businesses, SOULBOUND STUDIOS, LLC did not report the number of jobs retained by their receipt of the Paycheck Protection Loan, so per-employee payrolls cannot be estimated.'
     

    I guess they meant 'Unlike' and it is definitely a chuckle factor that they did not report the number of jobs retained when they had none even before applying for the PPloan.

    Gdemami
    Chamber of Chains
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited November 2020
    cheyane said:
    I know @Gdemami you think you're terribly clever but as a tax payer doesn't it bother you that Soulbound just scammed this relief program that would have served others who truly needed it.
    ...not a least bit since there is no scam involved, it's just you and your silliness - that's just the fun part.

    What actually does bother me is people who in their immense ignorance stupidity and self-entitlement, consciously and systematically follow people around and accuse them of incompetence, greed, scam or whatnot.

    Not really talking about you tho...
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 18,361
    As Gdemami is now attorney-at-law as well as a game designer and leading immunologist, I am sure he must be right. :)
    Iselinmkliniccheyane[Deleted User]xpsyncKyleran
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 4,780
    Scot said:
    As Gdemami is now attorney-at-law as well as a game designer and leading immunologist, I am sure he must be right. :)
    It must be hard, being so smart with all these people who don’t get it surrounding you.

    Dunning-Kruger in full effect.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Scot[Deleted User]
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,182
    What if Caspien used the 3 loans to secretly rehire the half of his employees that did not go over to Adept games? What if they are secretly working to complete the masterpiece that will be CoE?


    [Deleted User]Kyleran

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,464
    What if Caspien used the 3 loans to secretly rehire the half of his employees that did not go over to Adept games? What if they are secretly working to complete the masterpiece that will be CoE?



    What would be the benefit of keeping that a secret?!
    --------------------------------------------
  • xpsyncxpsync Member EpicPosts: 1,852
    Start the kettle, going to be a late night, someone is wrong on the internet.
    Scot
    Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,182
    What if Caspien used the 3 loans to secretly rehire the half of his employees that did not go over to Adept games? What if they are secretly working to complete the masterpiece that will be CoE?



    What would be the benefit of keeping that a secret?!
    Hey I don’t believe it but just saying it’s theoretically possible.  And in that bizzaro world he would do so under the belief that when he reopened and showed the community his “progress” that they come back and toss him more money.  It would also let him push back on the lawsuits and show “progress”.

    Heres an even deeper rabbit hole idea.  What if he’s funding Adept Games as a contracted vendor.

    I dunno.  Just trying to understand why someone would take out a payroll protection loan after firing all his staff and then add 2 more loans on top of that ($1M total)
    WellspringGdemami

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,556
    Maybe after a certain point of behaving/thinking like a criminal rules/laws don't matter anymore.
    Gdemami
  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,120
    Shaigh said:
    As long as the information they wrote in the application was true and that they didn't add information that was false they have nothing to worry about. Its all about when the application was made and not when the application was approved. 
    Application opened on April 3rd. https://www.sba.com/funding-a-business/government-small-business-loans/ppp/

    According to Jeromy they shut down March 24th
    https://twitter.com/JeromyWalsh/status/1243184811675533315


    Also, I do not know how these guys get their info.  Maybe it’s from their lawyer, but they are saying that Jeromy took out two subsequent business loans and the total of all 3 is a million dollars.

    Crazy shit going on there.
    The liability is that the company has to pay back money it didn't use correctly but for it to be fraud you have to provide false information in your application.

    150k-350k is still small potato compared to the rhode island money that was put into project copernicus
    Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 40,474
    edited November 2020
    Rather than debate the legality of the issue, let's look at what the intent of these loans were in terms of their use.

    From the linked SBA document which the opposition so graciously linked. 

    "The Paycheck Protection Program is a loan designed to provide a direct incentive for small businesses to keep their workers on the payroll."

    As Jeremy terminated all of his employees prior to receiving the loan its clear the money is not being used for the intended purpose.

    Also, this statement is key, 

    "The following entities affected by Coronavirus (COVID-19) may be eligible:"

    Since Soulbound Studios totally collapsed by March it's clear COVID-19 had nothing to with it's failure seeing it was entirely due to other factors.

    Since the outbreak most all technology firms including game developers have thrived and had no issue with viability.

    Didn't even impact crowd funding efforts as Star Citizen continues to wrack up multi-millions in new funding every month and several new project easily exceeded their KSEr goals during this time.

    About loan forgiveness,

    "Borrowers may be eligible for loan forgiveness if the funds were used for eligible payroll costs, payments on business mortgage interest payments, rent, or utilities during either the 8- or 24-week period after disbursement."

    Hrmm, let's see now, there aren't any employees, so no payroll costs, they rented the office space, perhaps it could be used to cover assuming they couldn't just break their lease right away, so maybe for that.

    In the end, what was done may not have been illegal, but it certainly wasn't "right."

    I find many in society who are broken IMO struggle in understanding the difference nor care much about being ethical or moral, only concerned about it's legality.

    Boom...headshot... again.

     :D 



    [Deleted User]Gdemami

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