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State of the Game - October 2020 Newsletter

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Comments

  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    xpsync said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    PRAYING
    Not sure God gets involved in video games =)

    Especially crowdfunded ones.

    Crowdfunding is for the other guy.



    Nanfoodle[Deleted User]Slapshot1188KyleranxpsyncVrika[Deleted User]

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,464
    Nanfoodle said:
    BruceYee said:
    With what we know now that the game is STILL in PRE-alpha does it seem a little
    disingenuous to sell the higher pledge amounts(1,3,10k) with things like lifetime membership? Even the hundreds at this point should be temporarily removed until they get stuff sorted out.
    Thats a little bit of a backward way to look at this. Pantheon has still progressed to the point the have a working part of the game with most systems in play. Where you will be able to play a number of classes from level 1 to 50. With that, Pre-Alpha 5 will be about polishing that so that when Alpha starts, VR will have something to show investors to get more funds. Supporting VR is as much of a gamble as it always has but... They are getting some good momentum. From here, they will just need to repeat the process in other areas of the game. 
    I honestly hope you are right, but I suspect that the situation is quite dire and if they do not get an investor to bite in the next few months they will fold.   I have a suspicion, maybe just a hope, that they already have a deal in the works and that this "Come to Jesus" moment was just to prepare folks for the announcement that they were acquired by XYZ company.

    I've been trying to wrap my head around what VR's motivation was for releasing that State of the Game letter. They're finally coming out of a long dark period of development with Project Faerthale. Pre-alpha testing and communication is ramping up, which should only help to increase community interest. It's the timing. Why, now, say what they did? It just served to pour cold water on any community enthusiasm.

    Most Likely:

    a) @Slapshot1188 you are right. They have a deal in the works and are laying the foundation for an unpopular announcement. After all, "selling out" will be easier for the community to stomach, after being scared by the alternative of shutting down or an even slower development schedule.

    Other theories:

    b) They decided to clear the air, after they were caught by a community member hard-coding quest dialog, 10 days prior.

    https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12433/a-thing-i-didn-t-expect


    c) I'll tell you what I don't buy, that the state of the game was intended simply to update the community about the state of development. What's the point in telling us their struggles and that they need an investor / publisher, just for sake of transparency?? They didn't even ask the community to help bridge the financial gap.


    d) ????



    GdemamiSlapshot1188KumaponNanfoodle[Deleted User]TwoTubes
    --------------------------------------------
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,610
    Nanfoodle said:
    BruceYee said:
    With what we know now that the game is STILL in PRE-alpha does it seem a little
    disingenuous to sell the higher pledge amounts(1,3,10k) with things like lifetime membership? Even the hundreds at this point should be temporarily removed until they get stuff sorted out.
    Thats a little bit of a backward way to look at this. Pantheon has still progressed to the point the have a working part of the game with most systems in play. Where you will be able to play a number of classes from level 1 to 50. With that, Pre-Alpha 5 will be about polishing that so that when Alpha starts, VR will have something to show investors to get more funds. Supporting VR is as much of a gamble as it always has but... They are getting some good momentum. From here, they will just need to repeat the process in other areas of the game. 
    I honestly hope you are right, but I suspect that the situation is quite dire and if they do not get an investor to bite in the next few months they will fold.   I have a suspicion, maybe just a hope, that they already have a deal in the works and that this "Come to Jesus" moment was just to prepare folks for the announcement that they were acquired by XYZ company.

    I've been trying to wrap my head around what VR's motivation was for releasing that State of the Game letter. They're finally coming out of a long dark period of development with Project Faerthale. Pre-alpha testing and communication is ramping up, which should only help to increase community interest. It's the timing. Why, now, say what they did? It just served to pour cold water on any community enthusiasm.

    Most Likely:

    a) @Slapshot1188 you are right. They have a deal in the works and are laying the foundation for an unpopular announcement. After all, "selling out" will be easier for the community to stomach, after being scared by the alternative of shutting down or an even slower development schedule.

    Other theories:

    b) They decided to clear the air, after they were caught by a community member hard-coding quest dialog, 10 days prior.

    https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12433/a-thing-i-didn-t-expect


    c) I'll tell you what I don't buy, that the state of the game was intended simply to update the community about the state of development. What's the point in telling us their struggles and that they need an investor / publisher, just for sake of transparency?? They didn't even ask the community to help bridge the financial gap.


    d) ????



    I think option A is most likely and what first came to mind when I was done reading. I thought, man I hope they find an investor. So that could be just what they want everyone to think. So if they announce they have one, like you said, over sell out. People will be cheering. As long as they are careful not to get tied down with a bad company. Im find with it. 
    Gdemami
  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    To further @Slapshot1188's idea (above), what if the unnamed buyout investor was a company like Tencent, which is pretty much raw evil (and probably a worst case scenario).  Imagine the amount of groundwork that would be necessary for VR to make such a commitment palatable to their fans/followers.  I'll get really scared if there is a mass wave of similar announcements.



    Gdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    Torval said:
    Mendel said:
    To further @Slapshot1188's idea (above), what if the unnamed buyout investor was a company like Tencent, which is pretty much raw evil (and probably a worst case scenario).  Imagine the amount of groundwork that would be necessary for VR to make such a commitment palatable to their fans/followers.  I'll get really scared if there is a mass wave of similar announcements.




    Why would Tencent buy this? That's a question to explore because I think Tencent buys games and studios that have working software with financial value. Who would want to buy a game studio that has no revenue stream, no working software in production, and an MMO built on Unity? That is who would buy this company and I personally don't think Tencent or big players would be interested.

    Tencent was an example only.



    [Deleted User]Gdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    Torval said:
    Mendel said:
    Torval said:
    Mendel said:
    To further @Slapshot1188's idea (above), what if the unnamed buyout investor was a company like Tencent, which is pretty much raw evil (and probably a worst case scenario).  Imagine the amount of groundwork that would be necessary for VR to make such a commitment palatable to their fans/followers.  I'll get really scared if there is a mass wave of similar announcements.




    Why would Tencent buy this? That's a question to explore because I think Tencent buys games and studios that have working software with financial value. Who would want to buy a game studio that has no revenue stream, no working software in production, and an MMO built on Unity? That is who would buy this company and I personally don't think Tencent or big players would be interested.

    Tencent was an example only.




    I understand, but I think it brought up a great point. It made me ask: Who is the target audience for a publisher, investor, or buyer? What or who is the audience for investment into this game, outside of crowd-funders?
    Same people who enjoy putting everything down on 35 when spinning the Roulette wheel.

    ;)
    Asheram[Deleted User]

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,610
    Torval said:
    Mendel said:
    Torval said:
    Mendel said:
    To further @Slapshot1188's idea (above), what if the unnamed buyout investor was a company like Tencent, which is pretty much raw evil (and probably a worst case scenario).  Imagine the amount of groundwork that would be necessary for VR to make such a commitment palatable to their fans/followers.  I'll get really scared if there is a mass wave of similar announcements.




    Why would Tencent buy this? That's a question to explore because I think Tencent buys games and studios that have working software with financial value. Who would want to buy a game studio that has no revenue stream, no working software in production, and an MMO built on Unity? That is who would buy this company and I personally don't think Tencent or big players would be interested.

    Tencent was an example only.




    I understand, but I think it brought up a great point. It made me ask: Who is the target audience for a publisher, investor, or buyer? What or who is the audience for investment into this game, outside of crowd-funders?
    There is no real proof a game like this has a market. Many are asking for it. They have 4000 odd backers that gave $1000+ to the game + all the small fries like myself who gave a little more then you would pay for a B2P game. But would any of them stick around, or do we all have things were better back in the good old days vision? Working studios dont seem to want to touch this kind of endeavor. Closest was Blizzard with WoW classic and that games numbers have fallen allot. Still a huge gamble. I hope someone is willing.  
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,556
    Torval said:

    I understand, but I think it brought up a great point. It made me ask: Who is the target audience for a publisher, investor, or buyer? What or who is the audience for investment into this game, outside of crowd-funders?

    Who's willing to hire devs that no other company will employ to work on a game that'll still be in alpha after 4-5 years? Simple answer >>> AGS
    Gdemami
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,610
    edited October 2020
    BruceYee said:
    Torval said:

    I understand, but I think it brought up a great point. It made me ask: Who is the target audience for a publisher, investor, or buyer? What or who is the audience for investment into this game, outside of crowd-funders?

    Who's willing to hire devs that no other company will employ to work on a game that'll still be in alpha after 4-5 years? Simple answer >>> AGS
    I dont think you have any proof of that statement. Frankly, the VR team has pulled a major feat, creating what they have with how little they have to work with. The parts of the game that are done look stunning and play how their backers have asked for and they have added some really awesome stuff like climbing almost everything, that you see in major titles like Assassins Creed.
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,855
    Never never never buy a game before it releases.

    I can't believe it still needs repeating.
    GdemamiBrainy
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085
    Thats less than optimal.
  • achesomaachesoma Member RarePosts: 1,726
    Never never never buy a game before it releases.

    I can't believe it still needs repeating.

    Gamers: I'm sick of corporate greed ruining MMOs!

    Developers: Will you financially support my MMO from our indie gaming studio?

    Gamers: No.

    Developers: Ok, we'll get some major publishers to back our studio.

    Gamers: Sellout! I'm sick of corporate greed ruining MMOs!


    People aren't buying a game. They're supporting a small studio to get the type of MMO they want.
    Preaching Pantheon to People at PAX  PAX East 2018 Day 4 - YouTube
  • goldwheatgoldwheat Member UncommonPosts: 68
    People aren't buying a game. They're supporting a small studio to get the type of MMO they want. 
    I won't speak for anyone else, but for me, any donations would simply be to buy the game.

    If the idea isn't good enough to gather donations, it should fail.  It did, via Kickstarter.
    Not using Kickstarter simply delayed the same inevitable outcome by 7 years.

    It's not exactly the game I want.  My needs are modest.  No cash shop, subscription only.
    They won't be able to fulfill either or both of those, by their own admission.
    This team said they were fully funded to launch (without a date), then they weren't fully funded (without a date), and now they won't be able to launch in a reasonable time, based on crowdfunding alone.

    It might be reasonable to extend faith and trust, except for one teeny tiny problem.  They've done all this before.  Many times.  Some of the current and past developers of this project have been through the creation (from scratch) of an MMO client, server, and database.  They have been through the acquisition of a small/indie project by a large company, publisher, or similar.

    As has been said before (on this site), they should have proven the game mechanics, MMO-networking and gameplay loops BEFORE they went looking for money to make it look shiny.  They did the opposite, and now it's biting them in the ass. 
    Reap?  Meet sow.  I'm sure you'll be very happy together.  No-one is there to shield me from my mistakes that I make as an adult.  The Pantheon developers deserve the same consequences.

    The really funny part is that at any time since 2014, when this whole disaster started rolling, they could have pumped the brakes and said "woah, woah, hardcoding everything into the client?  That's wonko!  Let's go back to basics and take a few minutes to create a few greybox testing zones, and prove all these mechanics actually work with primitives instead of models".  And while we're at it, we'll take all the hardcoding out of the client, and put all of it (read: as much of it as possible xoxo Nanfoodle) into a database so we can do live updates the way an actual modern MMO does.

    In fact, they had three different opportunities to do that.  They've publicly said they started again in 2014 (after the failed kickstarter), 2016 when they acquired new staff, and 2018 with project farthall. Now we're in 2020, and they're re-starting again, but still only going halfway, and their hand is still out for more money.  Yay?
    They have now consumed twice as much time as it took to create EQ1 from scratch (with zero tools!) and have no public product to sell.

    Here's a pro tip:  To demonstrate if your MMO gameplay loops work, you don't need any art.  You don't need any sound, music, particle effects, lighting, shaders, models, animations, or even textures.  Exactly zero art or content is required.  That would be a pre-alpha build that anyone (claiming to be a Unity developer)could create in Unity as a proof of concept, at any time.

    But they didn't.  At every step, despite their community telling them it was a mistake, they've been reading chapter and verse out of the Book of Fail, and swimming in their own kool-aid.  Again.  Just like Vanguard.
    GdemamiMendelKyleranBrainy
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited October 2020
    goldwheat said:
    Here's a pro tip:  To demonstrate if your MMO gameplay loops work, you don't need any art.  You don't need any sound, music, particle effects, lighting, shaders, models, animations, or even textures.  Exactly zero art or content is required.  
    ...pro-tip by a real pro.
    KyleranKumapon
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 16,947
    achesoma said:
    Never never never buy a game before it releases.

    I can't believe it still needs repeating.



    People aren't buying a game. They're supporting a small studio to get the type of MMO they want.
    Was that a quote from Ryan Dancey and Pathfinder Online?   Sounds very familiar...

    Kyleran

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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  • jdnycjdnyc Member UncommonPosts: 1,643
    I expected this.  A lot of the early stuff felt like it was lifted from EQ.  I think what they are doing is smart. 
  • jdnycjdnyc Member UncommonPosts: 1,643
    achesoma said:
    Never never never buy a game before it releases.

    I can't believe it still needs repeating.



    People aren't buying a game. They're supporting a small studio to get the type of MMO they want.
    Was that a quote from Ryan Dancey and Pathfinder Online?   Sounds very familiar...

    I think his statement was people say they don’t like to spend a lot of money, but their wallets say otherwise.  That was in response to him charging $250 for a cabin in the game.  People were making the ethical argument and he saw it in dollars and cents.  That mindset continued from the very beginning until he eventually bailed and left Lisa Stevens holding the bag. Game has been on life support ever since.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    jdnyc said:
    achesoma said:
    Never never never buy a game before it releases.

    I can't believe it still needs repeating.



    People aren't buying a game. They're supporting a small studio to get the type of MMO they want.
    Was that a quote from Ryan Dancey and Pathfinder Online?   Sounds very familiar...

    I think his statement was people say they don’t like to spend a lot of money, but their wallets say otherwise.  That was in response to him charging $250 for a cabin in the game.  People were making the ethical argument and he saw it in dollars and cents.  That mindset continued from the very beginning until he eventually bailed and left Lisa Stevens holding the bag. Game has been on life support ever since.
    I think the reality is people who don't have a lot of money (or are unwilling to spend it) get really whiff when other people choose to do so.


    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    jdnyc said:
    I expected this.  A lot of the early stuff felt like it was lifted from EQ.  I think what they are doing is smart. 
    Please elaborate because I really don't get a clear picture of what they are actually doing.
    IDk if they have 5 zones or 10 zones,i don't even know the full design of anything from combat to xp the only thing I keep getting hints about is they still stick to some of the BAD EQ ideas.

    People are different though some are very complacent, they would be happy with same old,me I want improvement and I have always been that way likely because of sports.I feel most people should want to improve on anything they can be it better at your job,more efficient,better with your money,better health,better with your kids,the list never ends.

    Then there is of course the mindset that some ideas i consider to be bad they actually think are GREAT !!.There is one difference,I don't think that they think about it at all and just stick to what made them happy back in the day.
    Brainy

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • achesomaachesoma Member RarePosts: 1,726
    achesoma said:
    Never never never buy a game before it releases.

    I can't believe it still needs repeating.



    People aren't buying a game. They're supporting a small studio to get the type of MMO they want.
    Was that a quote from Ryan Dancey and Pathfinder Online?   Sounds very familiar...


    No idea. Never followed Pathfinder Online.
    Preaching Pantheon to People at PAX  PAX East 2018 Day 4 - YouTube
  • jdnycjdnyc Member UncommonPosts: 1,643
    edited October 2020
    Wizardry said:
    jdnyc said:
    I expected this.  A lot of the early stuff felt like it was lifted from EQ.  I think what they are doing is smart. 
    Please elaborate because I really don't get a clear picture of what they are actually doing.
    I'm thinking there's prob not a lot done, since they have to redo everything.  The best course of action is develop a proof of concept and hope to convince someone to get on board.  There's no other option at this point that I see viable.  Trying to do too much now would blow whatever little funds they have left and have nothing to show for it.
  • goldwheatgoldwheat Member UncommonPosts: 68
    achesoma said:
    No idea. Never followed Pathfinder Online.
    Essentially, it's Ashes of Creation 1.0, or in the words of Ryan Dancey, ' EVE with swords '.  It is another failed attempt to attract sheep (paying PvE customers) to wolves (paying PvP customers) and artificially encourage 1v1 direct player conflict.  While of course, at the same time, punishing the victims (sheep) for participation.

    They, too, were warned that they couldn't attract sufficient demographic numbers to sustain their game, and when that reality came to pass, Ryan simply left the company.  They couldn't keep 1000 customers subscribed.  Their public target was 4000.

    Oh, and it also has the same tired old failed concept of "the first are the most powerful" with temporal skill gains.  That means that the players on day 1 were always and forever more powerful than players paying from day 2, or onward, because the XP cap was granted over time, not due to actions.  Similarly, item crafting (yes, a single item) took days or weeks, not seconds or minutes.  This was intended to foster item value, in whatever bizarro universe Ryan Dancey lives.

    But wait, there's more!  You could $$BUY$$ ... XP.  Yep, you could open your wallet and buy your way right up to the day-1-purchaser XP cap.  That was their whole financial viability premise.  I followed it and played it a fair bit at 'launch' but there was never more than a few dozen players online that I ever saw, even though they claimed an all time peak of 400, iirc.

    AoC is going down the same path by punishing non-combatant victims with MORE penalties than combatants, which, objectively, is the most illogical thing you could ever attempt, yet again.  But apparently the AoC devs are not students of history.  I mean, what paying PvE customer doesn't enjoy having their play time experience completely controlled by non-consensual PvP combat?  That's the dream, right?  Riiiiight.

    Both games are based on the premise that anyone can be attacked anywhere, at any time, by another player.  Full stop, always true, git gud or git gone.

    Thankfully, at least the Pantheon devs are smart enough to try to leave PvP alone.
    And yes, the world map, continents, zone count, zone names, zone locations, all of that?  Completely unknown for Pantheon, as of October 2020.  Even the tenets, differences, and features of Pantheon are now gone from the web site, and replaced with climbing, perception, and acclimation.

    Yet, the fanboi white knights of this community still claim: They are still updating the site (from August), you have to give them more time.  Sure, that's what they need after 7 years, more time.  Because updating a web site is new, like it's 1995 again.
    KyleranGdemamiBrainy[Deleted User]
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,823
    I think they will get a publisher tbh
    Welcome to the forums! :)
  • phoenixfire2phoenixfire2 Member UncommonPosts: 228
    Find myself being completely apathetic to these announcements these days.  Even on titles I've followed for half a decade or more.  Really just can't be bothered to care anymore.  Good riddance if it doesn't cut it in the end.
    [Deleted User]
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,855
    achesoma said:
    (Stuff)


    People aren't buying a game...
    Which is why they never get one.
    Kyleran[Deleted User]
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