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Emotions more than facts.

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 16,953
    Well, two extra years could be a "potential problem" too. 
    As I always say how far are they.  How far along in two years.  10% >40% ?
    At what % will they release ?


    This is a general statement for all games,
    People have this common misconception on delays. They say "the longer the delay the better the game"....... Well not if the game is in real bad condition and extreme low percentage.

    It's still a prerogative of done or ready by developers.... It could be a five year delay and only be 10% !    
    I agree that a delay for this reason won't make the game better in terms of polish, it is just to make sure there is enough of a game to play. As you say we don't know how completed it is, but until launch that's the case with every game.
  • BrainyBrainy Member RarePosts: 873
    Nanfoodle said:
    I backed this game twice. Once in my name and once in my wife's name. I hope it does come out in my lifetime =-) If Pantheon flops, sure I will be disappointed for a short moment but it would be brief and would soon fit on the list of many games I thought looked to have potential and would just move on to play one of many games I own. Its a meh for me. Till it flops, I will be GLAD to follow the game and talk about it.     
    I think its posts like this that describes the entire emotional problem.

    So to sum this up, you are glad to play the happy warrior hyping this game for all to be scammed into.  Then if it flops no skin off your back, you are off to fanboi the next thing.


    I am disappointed in myself for being fooled by this game.   Had I suspected this game would take 8-12 years to develop there would be no way I would have bought into or recommended the game to anyone.  So even by chance they do release something, it was still a huge mistake in my book that I need to learn from.

    In addition people in my inner circle who look to me to be knowledgeable of such endeavors also pledged to this game based at least partially on my recommendation.  Logically I'm going to make sure in the future to take this into account and give more diligence to situations like this.  Its certainly going to impact my thinking and I'm not just going to blow it off.

    But I can see some people don't care about their reputation or feel any responsibility for the BS they put out.  
    KyleranNanfoodleMendelYashaX
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 39,253
    edited October 2020
    Scot said:
    Well if it takes two extra years I don't see the problem. It is only a problem if they don't have the funds to push on at all. Fingers crossed, we can't have another failure, I know some of you think that might be healthier for the MMO market, but not me.
    It's failure would be healthier because it would further drive home the point crowd funding is not a viable funding model for developing MMOs unless of course they can raise the kind of money Roberts Industries has for CU.

    Otherwise I look at every other indie MMORPG to date as examples of throwing good money after bad, and everyone would be better off without the waste.

    Unrealistic or false hope is actually worse than never having hope in the first place, at least in my view.


    BrainyGdemamiMendelIselinYashaX

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 39,253
    Scot said:
    Well, two extra years could be a "potential problem" too. 
    As I always say how far are they.  How far along in two years.  10% >40% ?
    At what % will they release ?


    This is a general statement for all games,
    People have this common misconception on delays. They say "the longer the delay the better the game"....... Well not if the game is in real bad condition and extreme low percentage.

    It's still a prerogative of done or ready by developers.... It could be a five year delay and only be 10% !    
    I agree that a delay for this reason won't make the game better in terms of polish, it is just to make sure there is enough of a game to play. As you say we don't know how completed it is, but until launch that's the case with every game.
    What we do know is burn rates are real, and unless you are Roberts Industries can't continue on indefinitely.

    At some point every software project has to deliver something viable or be shut down as a failed effort, with the latter being the far more common outcome not only in gaming but elsewhere.
    MendeltzervoYashaX

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,785
    Why don't they work any of this project with free time, with only the "so called" main developers.

    Something tells me their so boastful they don't do anything for free... their above that.

    Like I say I lost all respect in the last few years.
    Gdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 39,253
    delete5230 said: 
    Why don't they work any of this project with free time, with only the "so called" main developers.

    Something tells me their so boastful they don't do anything for free... their above that.

    Like I say I lost all respect in the last few years.
    C'mon, you know better, most of us work to live, few have the good fortune to work for free, and most of those folks focus on charities not game development.


    tzervoScotTorval

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • LinifLinif Member UncommonPosts: 300
    Kyleran said:
    delete5230 said: 
    Why don't they work any of this project with free time, with only the "so called" main developers.

    Something tells me their so boastful they don't do anything for free... their above that.

    Like I say I lost all respect in the last few years.
    C'mon, you know better, most of us work to live, few have the good fortune to work for free, and most of those folks focus on charities not game development.


    To be fair, he's not saying work for free all the time. I believe he's trying to say he doesn't feel that the devs do ANY work outside of office hours.

    If that were true I'd be genuinely surprised. If you do really care about these kinds of things then you'd want to dedicate a little more time. I do this somewhat regularly with my work (Programmer, not a game dev)
    Kyleran[Deleted User]YashaX
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,284
    Why don't they work any of this project with free time, with only the "so called" main developers.

    Something tells me their so boastful they don't do anything for free... their above that.

    Like I say I lost all respect in the last few years.

    You want people to use their own free time to work on their job? So you can play a video game "quicker?"

    I don't believe you are saying that. Can't be.
    Kyleran[Deleted User]tzervoAmathe
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • DafAtRandomDafAtRandom Member UncommonPosts: 117
    Sovrath said:
    Why don't they work any of this project with free time, with only the "so called" main developers.

    Something tells me their so boastful they don't do anything for free... their above that.

    Like I say I lost all respect in the last few years.

    You want people to use their own free time to work on their job? So you can play a video game "quicker?"

    I don't believe you are saying that. Can't be.

    Check again who posted that.  Then the nonsense will make a lot more sense.  In a way.

    @Delete You are wrong.  People don't dislike you because you're an asshole.  People dislike you because you are incoherent, entitled, continuously trying to pass your own views as "everyone's", constantly making strawman arguments and litter your messages with fallacies.
    [Deleted User]cheyane
  • BrainyBrainy Member RarePosts: 873
    Well I dont know about work for free, but why wouldn't these devs be on salary so technically all time would be paid anyway.  There was a time when people making games would be putting in 12-16 hours a day trying to push a game out.  Especially a small indy project hopefully there would be some passion there.

    I remember programming and just losing hours while focusing on coding, then all a sudden it was 3am and I needed to get back up for a meeting a 7am.  It would happen frequently.


    YashaXKyleran
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 8,801
    Our entire society is driven by emotions now......Reason and logic have left the building....The people of the USA are ready to destroy teh entire country and its entire history over emotions, many of which they don't even understand.
    TorvalIselinMendelYashaX
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,785
    remsleep said:
    Sovrath said:
    Why don't they work any of this project with free time, with only the "so called" main developers.

    Something tells me their so boastful they don't do anything for free... their above that.

    Like I say I lost all respect in the last few years.

    You want people to use their own free time to work on their job? So you can play a video game "quicker?"

    I don't believe you are saying that. Can't be.
    He is saying that.

    He is also not realizing that game devs put in ridiculous hours already 
    I don't think this team does.
    Gdemami
  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,104
    edited October 2020
    If you work ridiculous hours you often end up making stupid mistakes that you would never do if you were mentally fresh. Effective work will always matter more than hours spent working, especially when you have to redo stuff you already made.
    Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 16,606
    edited October 2020
    Backing any crowdfunded MMO project and then expecting a tiny team with a tiny budget to out-produce AAA studios with massive teams and massive funding in both, quality of product and delivery timelines, goes beyond emotions into magical thinking territory. It's Santa, the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy land.

    Brainy said:
    Had I suspected this game would take 8-12 years to develop there would be no way I would have bought into or recommended the game to anyone.

    And this is exactly why all of them sell you those magical thinking timelines: because you would not pledge if they give you a realistic projection. And that realistic projection for all of them is much longer than the 6-8 years it takes a large studio with full funding to do it... if it doesn't totally fall apart while developing it which is the most likely outcome for all of them.

    How could you not suspect it when they promise to release in 3 or 4 years? Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy say hi.
    tzervoYashaXKyleranSovrathGdemami
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,035
    Scot said:
    Well if it takes two extra years I don't see the problem. It is only a problem if they don't have the funds to push on at all. Fingers crossed, we can't have another failure, I know some of you think that might be healthier for the MMO market, but not me.
    I don't understand how you can be so chill about these obvious scams in the mmo space and at the same time be so critical of early access for games outside the mmo genre.
    Gdemami
    ....
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,513
    Kyleran said:


    Otherwise I look at every other indie MMORPG to date as examples of throwing good money after bad, and everyone would be better off without the waste.




    I don't think CF if they get their engine problems sorted out fits into that category. They are almost at their finish line compared to this game and CU and SC. Garriot was an idiot to think in 2015 people wouldn't notice he was using straight Unity assets in his game.

    If anything the one good thing about the crowdfund MMO's were they kept MMO's in the conversation for half a decade possibly preventing complete extinction.
    YashaXKyleranGdemami
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    edited October 2020
    Amathe said:
    You predicted a small budget, short staffed, indy company making a niche game would struggle? Impressive. You sir are Nostradamus.
    Well if things are so "obvious" WHY are people already buying into Cyberpunk without ever seeing more than a couple minutes of marketing footage?This is NOT using any common sense when you make an opinion based on VERY little,there is NO WAY it can be obvious with no criteria to go on.I can point to BG3,the marketing video looked amazing,the game looks NOTHING like the marketing video.

    I even was shocked when Smedley tr\ied to endorse a buddy of his absolute garbage game and yet a few people in these forums were like WOW I can't wait !!.

    My point is that to even SOME people who THINK they have some intelligence,things are NOT so obvious,they simply buy games on a whim or are EASILY baited by a marketing video.

    Then if you have gamed for a long time,it SHOULD be easy to see through BS marketing,people should be able to read between the lines a bit as well.
    So I can point to an even more well know fact and that revovles around EQ NExt.

    So how many were praising EQNext and truly thought that game was going to not only come out but be amazing?I on the other hand pointed out VERY early that Landmark was nothing more than a funding gimmick to hel pfund Next which SHOULD have shown to anyone with common sense they did not have the money or budget to see it through.Then if that wasn't enough,we saw StoryBricks hyped through the roof,then it got cancelled/removed lol,still people were NAIVE enough to think all is good.../sigh.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    I can even point to Cohh Carnage who endorsed this game,HE didn't think it so obvious this game would fail.
    I should also make note before I come off as saying I told you so,this game is not done,the team are not saying this will fold up like an ironed shirt,they are merely saying things are really rough right now and they will need help.

    I mention his because I THINK people are already writing this off.
    Sovrath

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,284
    Wizardry said:
    I can even point to Cohh Carnage who endorsed this game,HE didn't think it so obvious this game would fail.
    I should also make note before I come off as saying I told you so,this game is not done,the team are not saying this will fold up like an ironed shirt,they are merely saying things are really rough right now and they will need help.

    I mention his because I THINK people are already writing this off.

    Yes, I agree, they aren't down yet, things just aren't peachy.
    Nanfoodle
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 324
    Not every team can have the saga of lucemia model.  It is a "passion project".
  • HidesBehindShadowHidesBehindShadow Member UncommonPosts: 41
    edited October 2020
    Just make sure you let me know what guild your in Op so I can avoid it. If you are not happy with the pace of the development, go away, take a break from Pantheon and come back. 

    I know I'll be testing every opportunity I get.


  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,464
    Kyleran said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    goldwheat said:
    Sure.  Every post up until October 10th that didn't mention they were hardcoding every bit of the game into the game client, instead of using a proper client/server/db implementation model. 

    There.  100% dishonesty.  You want more?  How about every single missed time estimate since 2014 for alpha, beta, and any project or milestone?

    How about removing all the differences, tenets, and features of Pantheon on August 30th, 2020, after gathering millions in pledges during the previous six and a half years?  You know, all the things people pledged because of?  Yeah, those are gone, now.  Removed from the web site, even though they could have left them exactly as they were.

    You want to nitpick about dishonesty or unethical, now?  They knew what they were doing was wrong, but kept taking money.  The entire time they were building a PoC to have a publisher buy it.  The exact opposite of what they claimed and took money to do.  Dishonest.
    There is simply no other rational explanation for hardcoding every piece of the game into the client for over 6 years.
    Game development changes all the time, so VR is as dishonest by your post as any major studio on the market. Guess I will cancel my Shadowlands expansion thats been delayed. LOL
    The dishonesty is they have long said they have enough resources to deliver the promised game but it would go faster if more money was raised.

    Now it appears if angel investors aren't located (soon) they will be unable to complete the game within a reasonable time, ergo, implying might well be time to throw in the towel.


    In an interview more recent than the producer's letter, Ben Dean (the same guy who wrote the producer's letter) said the following:

    "Let me put it this way, crowdfunding at the rate that it is now and has been, you know, it will get the game launched. It will take considerable more amount of time than it would if we had a quicker injection of [money], you know, from a publisher or major investor."

    Source:


    @Kyleran I don't see how you've made the leap to dishonesty. Their stance hasn't changed.

    The only thing that's changed is your expectations (on how fast the game will be completed on crowdfunding alone) based on the new information.
    NanfoodleTimukasAmathe
    --------------------------------------------
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,609
    Kyleran said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    goldwheat said:
    Sure.  Every post up until October 10th that didn't mention they were hardcoding every bit of the game into the game client, instead of using a proper client/server/db implementation model. 

    There.  100% dishonesty.  You want more?  How about every single missed time estimate since 2014 for alpha, beta, and any project or milestone?

    How about removing all the differences, tenets, and features of Pantheon on August 30th, 2020, after gathering millions in pledges during the previous six and a half years?  You know, all the things people pledged because of?  Yeah, those are gone, now.  Removed from the web site, even though they could have left them exactly as they were.

    You want to nitpick about dishonesty or unethical, now?  They knew what they were doing was wrong, but kept taking money.  The entire time they were building a PoC to have a publisher buy it.  The exact opposite of what they claimed and took money to do.  Dishonest.
    There is simply no other rational explanation for hardcoding every piece of the game into the client for over 6 years.
    Game development changes all the time, so VR is as dishonest by your post as any major studio on the market. Guess I will cancel my Shadowlands expansion thats been delayed. LOL
    The dishonesty is they have long said they have enough resources to deliver the promised game but it would go faster if more money was raised.

    Now it appears if angel investors aren't located (soon) they will be unable to complete the game within a reasonable time, ergo, implying might well be time to throw in the towel.


    In an interview more recent than the producer's letter, Ben Dean (the same guy who wrote the producer's letter) said the following:

    "Let me put it this way, crowdfunding at the rate that it is now and has been, you know, it will get the game launched. It will take considerable more amount of time than it would if we had a quicker injection of [money], you know, from a publisher or major investor."

    Source:


    @Kyleran I don't see how you've made the leap to dishonesty. Their stance hasn't changed.

    The only thing that's changed is your expectations (on how fast the game will be completed on crowdfunding alone) based on the new information.
    Ya I posted that information in this thread here....

    https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/491445/pantheons-producer-ben-dean-interviewed/p2

    It was not received very well lol. There seems to be allot of distrust. even when this studio has been very forward about whats going on, even when things are not going well or needs to be fixed. (((shrugs)))
    Wellspring
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 39,253
    Kyleran said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    goldwheat said:
    Sure.  Every post up until October 10th that didn't mention they were hardcoding every bit of the game into the game client, instead of using a proper client/server/db implementation model. 

    There.  100% dishonesty.  You want more?  How about every single missed time estimate since 2014 for alpha, beta, and any project or milestone?

    How about removing all the differences, tenets, and features of Pantheon on August 30th, 2020, after gathering millions in pledges during the previous six and a half years?  You know, all the things people pledged because of?  Yeah, those are gone, now.  Removed from the web site, even though they could have left them exactly as they were.

    You want to nitpick about dishonesty or unethical, now?  They knew what they were doing was wrong, but kept taking money.  The entire time they were building a PoC to have a publisher buy it.  The exact opposite of what they claimed and took money to do.  Dishonest.
    There is simply no other rational explanation for hardcoding every piece of the game into the client for over 6 years.
    Game development changes all the time, so VR is as dishonest by your post as any major studio on the market. Guess I will cancel my Shadowlands expansion thats been delayed. LOL
    The dishonesty is they have long said they have enough resources to deliver the promised game but it would go faster if more money was raised.

    Now it appears if angel investors aren't located (soon) they will be unable to complete the game within a reasonable time, ergo, implying might well be time to throw in the towel.


    In an interview more recent than the producer's letter, Ben Dean (the same guy who wrote the producer's letter) said the following:

    "Let me put it this way, crowdfunding at the rate that it is now and has been, you know, it will get the game launched. It will take considerable more amount of time than it would if we had a quicker injection of [money], you know, from a publisher or major investor."

    Source:


    @Kyleran I don't see how you've made the leap to dishonesty. Their stance hasn't changed.

    The only thing that's changed is your expectations (on how fast the game will be completed on crowdfunding alone) based on the new information.
    No, what changed is in the interview following the Producer's letter which was also after I made my post Ben "clarified" his original muddy statement.  

    My expectations haven't changed, I never have believed they can get this game across the line in a reasonable timeframe, (if at all) based on their current funding model.

    He restated his position after realizing there was a real risk of potential backers withholding their pledges based on how his original message was received.

    Still...notice his key assumption, "crowdfunding at the rate that it is now and has been" is what drives the entire timeline at the moment.  Ask Jeremy Walsh what can happen if the backers lose faith and the funding suddenly comes to an end.

    Let's face it, no one wants to be a starving artist forever, they need to get this game finished and making some real money sooner rather than later.

    Ar their present rate of progress it is not unreasonable to predict at least five more years before the game is ready for full release.

    Question isn't really whether you or I are willing to wait that long, but are the people making the game willing or able to do so.

    Long damn time to go scrabbling for a living and there certainly are better ways to plan for of one's future income than sticking with a project like this so expect staff attrition to continue.
    WellspringTorval

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






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